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-   -   Doom vs Dark Forces (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=133092)

Katarn07 08-05-2004 03:37 PM

Doom vs Dark Forces
 
Doom 3 has come out and it doesn't look to be anything like I hoped. I plan on getting it eventually or maybe I'll just rent it for the XBOX. Haven't decided. All in all, JO/ JA seem like much superior sequels.

But what of the original Doom when compared to DF? Which did you prefer playing back in the day?

txa1265 08-06-2004 04:45 AM

Well, Doom was first, and could play on my laptop way back when, so it has probably gotten more 'partial plays', but I greatly prefer Dark Forces.

Mike

Codja X 08-06-2004 09:03 AM

Doom was better for jumping in, blasting some daemons for 5-10 minutes and basically getting a quick fix.

Dark Forces was more in depth - you'd make a point of sitting down and playing it for a good couple of hours. The research base (I think it was level 4 - the one where you sneak through the canyons and go down an airshaft into the base) is still one of the best levels of any game ever made.

txa1265 08-06-2004 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Codja X
Dark Forces was more in depth - you'd make a point of sitting down and playing it for a good couple of hours.
Yeah, but the lack of in-game saves had something to do with that, don't you think?

Mike

Codja X 08-06-2004 02:39 PM

Possibly?

It certainly added a lot of tension to the games - as you're reaching the end of the level, your health is looking low and a phase 1 Dark Trooper pops out:


Aaaaaaaaaarrrgggghhhh!!!

I really did poop myself the 1st time that happened. The atmosphere of the game really sucked you in. DF2: Jedi Knight was the last in the series that made you feel like you were in that world.

Doom is more of a shooting gallery than an in depth proper adventure. I still say that Doom's shotgun is the best weapon in any game ever!

Katarn07 08-06-2004 07:35 PM

I grew up on DF. It was my first game that wasn't bundled with my PC. I grew up on the controls and the save system and actually have no complaints with any of it even when I replay it to this day.

Quote:

Originally posted by Codja X
DF2: Jedi Knight was the last in the series that made you feel like you were in that world.
I ain't going to bash JO anymore, but I agree that and even JA which I thought was much better (save for the length) didn't even do justice to the darkness of the originals. But Mysteries of the Sith was just as dark as DF and JK. If you don't have it, get it.

That Phase 1 coming was one of the best things ever in a game also. I remember me and a friend trying to play it together over the phone and I stumbled across him first. It scared the crap outta me. I dropped the phone and the batteries flew out the back.

Did Doom have any scary moments like that or was it monsters being turned to blood and gore?

Codja X 08-07-2004 07:48 AM

[q]
That Phase 1 coming was one of the best things ever in a game also. I remember me and a friend trying to play it together over the phone and I stumbled across him first. It scared the crap outta me. I dropped the phone and the batteries flew out the back.
[/q]

:D I was still living at home when I played this and when my parents heard me should "F*CKING HELL" they thought i'd badly hurt myself or something and came in to see what was the matter. Good times:)



Doom was pretty scary, but in a more grotesque horror rather than suspenseful. The one thing that made Doom scary was the sound - you could here a Cyberdemon for ages before you saw it and when it did appear it was like:

"Oh Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!" as you run away backwards empting all your ammunition into it. This was quite a regular occurance though. With Dark Forces, you heard the noises of the Dark Troopers through the breifing on level 2 and it gradually built up the suspense over several levels until BOOM!

This metal endo-skeleton thing with glowing red eyes and a massive blade comes jumping at you, your blaster fire just bouncing off his sheild as you run away from it, frantically trying to find the key for the rocket launcher. Good stuff!

I liked MoTS a lot, especially towards the end in the Sith temple - completely dark (in atmosphere as well as literally) - you get a true feeling that this is someplace evil and completely impregnated with the dark side.

That for me was one of the biggest let downs in JA - the final mission on Korriban and its the old mausoleam [sic] of Marka Ragnos AND IT'S A NICE SUNNY DAY! Hardly suspense building!

But back on topic - I love Star Wars, DF drips in SW atmosphere and therefore I do prefer it.

Neverhoodian 08-09-2004 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Codja X
That for me was one of the biggest let downs in JA - the final mission on Korriban and its the old mausoleam [sic] of Marka Ragnos AND IT'S A NICE SUNNY DAY! Hardly suspense building!

I was sorely disappointed with Korriban's appearance. I was hoping it would be like Mordor from Lord of the Rings, with nothing but blasted volcanic rock, magma lakes, towering black obelisks and spires and a toxin-choked black sky. There was also no grotesque guardian creatures corrupted by the Dark side's influence. Heck, they could've at least put a rancor or two in there. The whole "Egyptian archeological dig" theme didn't really work for me.

Codja X 08-10-2004 03:12 AM

Korriban appears in a very similar way in Knights of the Old Republic - like an old dig, but the crypts themselves are very creepy, which more than makes up for it.

The strange thing I find is even though DF was in VGA, blocky, lo-res graphics, it still made you feel like you were in the Star Wars universe. The very same point can be made for the 1st X-wing game as well. You weren't playing a game - you were there!

Samuel Dravis 08-22-2004 01:44 AM

Dark Forces. Although my favorite DF/JK game is MotS, DF was just fun to play. The phase 1 Dark Troopers scared me too, the first time I saw them. :p

JediMeister 09-02-2004 12:20 PM

I haven't played Doom before, but if I had after playing DF, I would've just gone back to DF. Wasn't DF the first game where you could actually look up and down to some degree at least? In Doom the enemy placement wasn't 3D, it was from the front or back or the sides. The most revolutionary gaming moment I remember from playing DF was the first level (Secbase) when I got shot by a stormie from the room above me. I can't wait for the DF JA mod to come out. 3 level demo in 3 weeks *prays* to bring DF into the world with better graphics!

Kurgan 09-02-2004 11:43 PM

Doom had multiplayer (although back in the day it was difficult or expensive to line up an actual game unless you were lucky enough to have a home lan).

On the other hand Dark Forces was a deeper game (and harder too). You could jump, aim (up and down anyway), crouch, and all the weapons had secondary fire modes. Plus there were some 3-D objects.

DF and Doom both had extensive mod communities and tons of free mods to download.

On the other hand in the modern day, Doom & Doom2 have the source ports and other things and now full internet play (Doomconnector for example) free.

Dark Forces on the other hand really hasn't improved any since that time. There are still a lot of mods, but the addons for Doom can make the game have almost modern graphics.

It really would be cool if LucasArts would either release the source for DF or else a patch for 3D acceleration, higher res, etc. like they did for a few of their other games (X-Wing, TIE Fighter, XvT, Outlaws). And maybe even a multiplayer patch (rumor has it that multiplayer was worked on for the game, though no idea how far along it was or if the code even still exists).

Overall both are fun games to play, but with DF you're stuck with the primitive graphics, there's no way to improve them (though the Mac version I'm told is a bit easier on the jaded modern eyes).

_PerfectAgent_ 09-10-2004 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurgan
all the weapons had secondary fire modes.
Except the Bryar and the ST Rifle. ;)

Kurgan 09-11-2004 12:45 PM

doh!
 
You're right, I should have said "half the weapons."

Fists didn't have a different secondary fire either.

It wasn't until MotS that they truly had a second firing mode (or option) for each weapon (and some had more than 2, though like in the case of the ST Rifle you had to get the scope for that to happen).

Secondary fire modes were a new thing back then.

_PerfectAgent_ 09-12-2004 09:35 AM

Yeah, wasn't Dark Forces the first game to have secondary fire modes for weapons?

jedispy 09-14-2004 06:12 AM

Quote:

Codja X

Doom was better for jumping in, blasting some daemons for 5-10 minutes and basically getting a quick fix.
I must agree. Doom gave you something that no other game really ever has. It was refreshing to get a quick fix of mindless destruction and killing. I done blowed up $#!^ lots of times, and yet Doom never grew old for me.

Dark Forces, albeit vastly superior in every concievable manner, never truly supplied that in the same way.

But because I'm a total freak with Star Wars, DF has my vote for better game overall.

Kurgan 09-14-2004 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by _PerfectAgent_
Yeah, wasn't Dark Forces the first game to have secondary fire modes for weapons?
First FPS for the PC that had 'em, that I know of...

Sivy 09-15-2004 12:18 AM

dark forces.

doom was ok but it didn't keep me interested. it got boring real quick. whereas dark forces had a much better story and the missions were better... plus it was star wars.

MikeGunther1969 09-15-2004 08:35 PM

DF was better than doom in the respect that, df was a great storyline driven game. Unlike doom, df had a gradual evolution of a fantastic story. Doom was just ready, set, frag..with the only evolution being the degree of difficulty. The best fps comparison should not be doom v df, but Duke Nukem vs Dark Forces. Both games had great characters, complicated levels with secret areas, and were story driven. Duke was also a direct rip-off of Bruce Campbell's character of "ASH" from the Evil Dead movies, which made him ultra cool. DF was STAR WARS...'nuff said. Doom doesn't even deserve being mentioned in the same saentece with DF from this day forward. Long live Ash and Kyle...Hail to the King baby!!!!

ronbrothers 11-06-2004 09:42 AM

In it's day, Doom was THE game. The demo was widely available as shareware on bulletin boards way before the internet was widely used. I downloaded it on a 2400 baud modem. Wow, how times have changed!

I remember there was a Star Wars Doom mod, and the stormtroopers and Darth Vaders replaced the demons. They still growled.

But when Dark Forces came out, in my mind, it blew Doom away!!!

The Saxman 11-11-2004 06:08 PM

Hi,

I'm kind of dissapointed. I first played DF about 1 year ago (I'm a late bloomer as far as gaming goes!), but I wasn't even startled when the first phase trooper appeared. I guess I'm just spoiled.....

The game that scared me spitless was MOTS when you first see the statues come alive at the sith temple. When that happend I just about screamed. What with the living statues, the vornskrs, and undead guardians, those last few levels were terrifying.

I'm just hoping that I can still play the classics like those when I get my new computer!

The Saxman

ronbrothers 11-11-2004 07:34 PM

You have to remember the period when DF was originally released. Only about 12 years earlier, Pac Man was a cutting edge game!

Armydude71490 11-13-2004 10:20 AM

Dark forces is by far supperior (I still haven't beaten it (without codes))!

The phase 1 dark troopers scare me even today!

I just started playing it again!

Great site of people who still use Df and is updated regurlarly
http://www.df-21.net/

Kurgan 08-01-2005 01:59 AM

Too bad that link is broken. :( Great thread, warranted revival!

INFERNOJHC 08-03-2005 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
It really would be cool if LucasArts would either release the source ...

I doubt that LucasArts has ever released any core source code of their games. What games are you refering to? Ballblazer, Koronis Rift or Eidolon? Lol.

We are talking about Luca$Arts and not idsoftware, right? So you have to pay a $hitload of money if you want to see any sources.

CortoCG 08-08-2005 03:56 PM

Dark Forces was the first game to introduce a lot of new stuff. Like jumping, spiral staircases, secondary fire modes, you have to actually use some weapons mindfully in order to solve some puzzles, slippery floors, mission goals.
The interaction level in DF was never seen untill then, which combined with a rich SW ambiance made the game a very immersive experience.
I think the show that DF caused on most of us comes from the fact that we never played something like it before.
I hardly find as much pleasure on playing games now than I did back then, when every new game presented us a new experience.

GreasyDogMeat 08-11-2005 10:03 PM

If we include source ports into this vs. thread then I deffinitly prefer Doom to DF. The source ports add mouse aiming and improved graphics, even 3d models if you wish.

If we're talking about when they were first released? It's a bit of an unfair comparison. DF came out... what? 2 Years after Doom? I prefer Doom in that it gives you more visceral constant 1,000 against 1 action, yet I prefer Dark Forces for all of the more modern gameplay aspects. Things like actual objectives beyond reaching the end of the level, cut scenes and a large arsenal of weapons. The AI was also very good in DF for it's time. You could sneak through dark areas without the enemy noticing but boom, turn on your light and you give your position away.

I think the biggest turn off for me was the lives and no saving feature. It felt to much like super marios. Doom was a big step in making you feel like you were in the game by only giving you a single life.

BTW, has anyone modded DF so that you can save your game? Would be very cool.

Katarn07, Doom 3 isn't so much a sequel as remake of the original Doom. Doom 3 is an amazing game, but fans of the original dooms who expect the same gameplay will be disapointed. Doom 3 is a horror game with a slow methodical pace where you never fight more than 3-5 enemies at once. A big turn off for those who remember the rooms full of enemies in the originals. It's still an awesome game especially if you have a rig that can handle it.

INFERNOJHC 08-16-2005 06:57 PM

Wolfenstein3D forever!

Assault3000 08-19-2005 04:15 PM

Dark Forces, it had much more depth than Doom and since it's Star Wars, instant win. Don't get me wrong though, I enjoyed Doom and Doom II (I disliked Final Doom and haven't bothered with Doom 3) but they were rather flat games with simple level design and even simpler gameplay.

The storyline was practically non existant in Doom while Dark Forces had a solid storyline that flowed well with the gameplay. Every mission was important to the storyline and drew you into a dark world while every Doom and Doom II level had nothing to do with the plot and was just there. This isn't usually a problem for me, for example Unreal is one of my favorite FPS' and it's levels rarely have anything to do with the plot but having mostly plot relevant levels is a plus. Another level problem, the levels in the Doom series are much too brief, even for their age. You can finish Doom Episode 1 in fifteen minutes or less on Nightmare, and that's about eight levels not counting the bonus one.

Doom was great back in the day and I loved it back then but these days it's a rather shallow game and there's no real point in playing it anymore except for nostalgia or trying out those wonderful mods that make it fully 3D. 3D mods or not, Dark Forces is a solid game that brought many things to the genre and tells a solid story at the same time and every level was an unforgettable experience for me. I can't say the same for Doom despite the fact that I liked it when I played it because I've forgotten almost every level entirely and the kicker is I replayed both Doom and Doom II with the 3D model mods just last year.

Echo-7 09-25-2005 07:37 AM

nothing is better than DARK FORCES, lol. Star Wars Rulez

X-Vector 09-25-2005 08:18 AM

And on that note...

Well, since I apparantly voted on this poll somewhere in time, I guess I'll just add my 2 eurocents.
Let me start by saying that I think DooM was id's finest hour and that I still play the game (and its sequel) through either the Legacy or jDoom/Doomsday ports.
That said, Dark Forces is my clear favourite.

For one thing, it was the one that got me into PC gaming.
Sitting on a shop shelf, DF was originally just another item to add to my "wanted birthday gifts" list back in March '96.
Having played the first level a few days later though, I was hooked and remained hooked to FPS games in general and Star Wars related action games in particular for a good few years.

Secondly, DF added so much to the DooM formula that it's an unbelievable shame its role in the evolution of the FPS genre has been so overlooked.
Consider the following:
- DF has a story, that plays out in both the in-game cutscenes and the gameplay, with real characters
- DF contains mission based gameplay, with objectives to complete
- There is more environmental interactivity, some of it puzzle oriented
- Each mission plays out against a different environment, with a unique dominating colour scheme for each planet
- The game provides an inventory, with tools to use in a variety of circumstances
- Some of the weapons have secondary firemodes
- DF's world design resembles believable locations and architecture, much more so than DooM's
- Jan Ors adds a feeling of comradery and also provides a lot of tension in the Imperial City level
- The final level of DF culminates in a much more exciting end fight than the one in DooM (where you can just blast the boss enemies from afar IIRC)
- More variety in movement: vertical look/aim, crouching, jumping, I think even (mine) explosion based jumping is possible

There's probably more, but this is what comes to mind right now.

MikeGunther1969 10-16-2005 07:00 PM

D U K E N U K E M F O R E V E R !!!, and, Hail to the King, Baby!!!

Rok_stoned 12-28-2005 04:43 PM

I think DF was the first video game I ever played (beside tank wars but that game was crapy even for then) Couldn't beat the 3rd level Dionaga scared the **** out of me and gave me nightmares so I stiopped playing it. (I was 7)

JokotoFett 04-10-2006 10:54 PM

Dark Forces all the way. I think Doom is pretty good but not as good as Dark Forces.

Force Lightning 07-13-2006 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JokotoFett
Dark Forces all the way. I think Doom is pretty good but not as good as Dark Forces.

I agree, Dark Forces all the way.

Ben_Walker 07-21-2006 07:01 PM

Hell yes to DF!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverhoodian
I was sorely disappointed with Korriban's appearance. I was hoping it would be like Mordor from Lord of the Rings, with nothing but blasted volcanic rock, magma lakes, towering black obelisks and spires and a toxin-choked black sky. There was also no grotesque guardian creatures corrupted by the Dark side's influence. Heck, they could've at least put a rancor or two in there. The whole "Egyptian archeological dig" theme didn't really work for me.

Now that would've been cool, at least have some of the locals come to life while you're trying to get out of the catacombs.

No Body 11-14-2006 07:03 AM

Dark Forces was actually the first full FPS game that I played.

I got an Intel system pretty late, probably around 2000 or so, so I missed out on all the "classics". When I got my system, my friend put a bunch of demos on it, Half-Life Day 1, Jedi Knight, Heavy Gear II, etc. Before that, I'd played Doom for all of about 2 minutes and DF for maybe 5 minutes at a friend's house. (not because I didn't like them, but because I didn't want to be rude and hog his computer)

I loved the demo for Jedi Knight and immediately bought a copy off eBay, MOTS included, but I didn't want to play it until I'd played DF first. I finally got a copy, installed it on my W98 system and played through the whole game. I would have preferred true mouse control, like more modern games, but I ended up using a joystick in place of the mouse. I was never once bored or felt like I was wasting my time. After finishing it, I moved on to the later Jedi games, which I also enjoyed.

A couple years ago, I decided to play Doom/Doom 2. First I tried playing the originals, but they just seemed too primitive, plus they kept crashing on me. I then downloaded a copy of JDoom and used that to play through the games with full mouse control. Before I was even halfway though the first game, I started to get bored. All the levels started to look the same after a while. I eventually finished both games, but it started to become more of a chore than a game.

Recently I played through Heretic using JHeretic and I started to get the same feeling about halfway through. The novelty of the various creatures wears off and then it's just trudging through similar levels killing dozens of identical creatures.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that even with modern ports and full mouse control, Doom still gets boring, while DF holds my interest from start to finish.

Johnpp 04-03-2007 06:19 AM

I think DooM was better for Marchin' in and killin' while DF was better for a good story. DooM, to me, did not even have a story line. I still like DooM better but I have only played the DF demos.

I still play DooM and DF2(demo) with my brother. Mostly DooM legacy. Is anyone up for a match of some DooM deathmatch?

All in all I enjoyed DooM better. And for those who say that DooM does not support up and down looking, it does with most source ports. Like Legacy and DoomsDay, JDRP, Risen3D (Which I never got to try).

ensiform 04-03-2007 01:06 PM

I'd play some coop doom on ZDaemon if u want :P

I have ultimate doom, doom 2, tnt, and plutonia wads.

No Body 04-04-2007 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaderrocks
I think DooM was better for Marchin' in and killin' while DF was better for a good story. DooM, to me, did not even have a story line. I still like DooM better but I have only played the DF demos.

I still play DooM and DF2(demo) with my brother.

You should play the full DF games. There are some nice levels in both, and some great moments in DF2. Like having to move around a roof while TIE bombers are dropping bombs on you, or finding your way off a crashing ship that's tilted at about a 45 degree angle while crates and things slide around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaderrocks
All in all I enjoyed DooM better. And for those who say that DooM does not support up and down looking, it does with most source ports. Like Legacy and DoomsDay, JDRP, Risen3D (Which I never got to try).

Developement on Risen3D may have stopped, but you can still download the last version that was released. I don't have the URL handy, but I know they put up pages to download it from.


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