Kreia handmaiden's mother?
 

Do you think that kreia/darth traya is handmaiden's mother?
Ah... yeah i found something on wookiepedia about kreia might be arren kae but i want your opinion any way :giggle1:

I think wookiepedia has some good points like:
-Kreia knows Brianna/handmaiden very well
-Kae is said to be exiled because of the birth of her child, and Kreia to be exiled for Revan's fall but near the end of the game Master Kavar on dantoine says: "I thought you died during the Mandalorian Wars," which would mean that Kreia could not have been exiled for Revan's "fall," since this occured after the Mandalorian Wars.
- The fact that both Kae and Kreia are referenced as being Revan's first master
-Atris's exclamation of "Kreia? That is not her name

there are more but ill not put them all here :p

So what you think?

There has been a topic like this before, but I say there is a chance that Kreia is the Handmaiden's mother.

The comments on Wookieepedia grew out of massive discussions both here and on Obsidian's boards.

There are adamant positions on both sides, but no conclusive evidence to neither support nor deny the idea. So it comes down to a purely personal evaluation. I tend to think that Kreia is Kae for the very reasons mentioned here and because her "betrayal in the heart", which is a prerequisite for becoming Darth Traya, is tied either to Revan or Yusanis or both. After all, assuming Kreia is Kae, it would mean that Yusanis refused to join her when she embraced the dark side and abandoned her - she was rejected by the man she loved and the father of her child. And he was then killed by her own favorite apprentice, Revan. Lots of betrayal in Kae/Kreia's past that way.

Another reason is the similarity of names. It's like Kae is the LS incarnation, Traya the DS incarnation, and Kreia the balanced "greyish" person we seen throughout most of TSL. And the name Kreia can be seen to be a combination of the two extremes: Kreia = K(ae) + (T)raya = Kraya = Kreia (just spelled a bit different, but pronounced the same).

But conclusive evidence either way? No.

I agree with Pottsie. In fact, in the fanfic I am writing, I clearly state my feelings on the matter.

One thing you didn't mention:

Kreia is a mixture of her Jedi and Sith names (Kae [K] and Traya [eia]) and the "r" was thrown in for good measure :P

EDIT: Same post time. You just picked me to the post Jediphile.

I just can't see Kreia giving up her daughter to Atris, especially since she hates Atris. Anyway, I've already made my points on why I totally disagree with this idea in the previous thread.

The Search is your friend.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=159734

I find that very hard to believe... Just imagine, Kreia being togehter with Yusanis? No... just no!

By the way, it is obvious that Kreia is fascinated by Revan, and Revan killed Yusanis.

You have a right to your opinion, but it really has no bearing on whether it may be true or not.

Yes, but so what? That happened years after Kreia fell to the dark side and lost contact with Revan. Besides, it's not as if having Kreia as a master would have stopped DS Revan from killing Yusanis in any event.

This is what feeds the idea of contant betrayal that started her off as Traya.

Keep it civil people. This thread is about opinions, while discussion is one thing remember that you need to do so courteously. Thanks.

I doubt it. Kreia doesn't seem at all like someone who'd be willing to get pregnant, and at her age it would be impossible.

Let's look at it: Kreia is in her 80s or so by TSL, yes? The Handmiaden is what, in her early 20s? That would mean Kreia gave birth to a child in her mid 60s.

Pretty difficult to have a kid when you're only a few years away from being a senior. :)

Besides, who the **** would would do anything even remotely sexual with a 60-year old Kreia? If Yusanis had, it was likely to the Force. If Kreia would go to the effort of bending his mind, why give the child away?

Oh, no kidding. The idea is just wrong. And Kreia was pretty old in TSL, she would have been an old woman still when Brianna was born since she was very young in TSL.

I can't see Yusanis being attracted to Kreia. The idea makes me want to puke.

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3...ractivewn3.jpg
That's just wrong!

EDIT: Just noticed that Emperor Devon posted before I did. I left my computer while commenting to unload the dishwasher because my wife said it needed to be done and then I come back, finish the post and sent it and saw that Devon mentioned my point about Kreia being very old when Brianna would have been born. Disgusting if you ask me.

The thing that convinces me is this

Kreia says the Kae is exiled due to the pregnancy, this is a lie. proof is below

Handmaiden says she remembers her father going to war for the sake of her mother, that is, the mandalorian wars, now for her to remember that she would be at least 7, probably older, so Kae at the time of the beginning of the mandalorian wars was still a jedi, yet her daughter 7 years old. if she, as claimed, died in the wars why would the jedi council declare her an exile when they found out about the daugther... that does not match.

Mical/disciple says that Revan had many masters, and mentions "master kae, until Kae went to war", so Kae was the last master Revan had before the mandalorian wars, meaning we have evidence she was still a jedi when she went to war.

Kreia says that revan returned to her for training before the end, now in Kreias view, being a greyhood now, his end would be his fall, meaning the mandalorian wars.

now remember that although kreia looks like "an old hag" the Darkside does that to people, sidious as the obvious example.

Handmaiden is most likely between 20 and 25 (aged 5-10 at the start of the mandalorian wars, add 5 years for the wars and 10 for the exile's exile)

Arren Kae, is to my knowledge never been given an age, but if you say she was in her late twenties/early thirties at the war, then add 15 and the use of DS = 80 year old looking hag.

As much as I agree with you, this is not proof. Kae was exiled before she went to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, but she had already given birth to Brianna close to a decade before that. The masters did not find out that she was pregnant. They just found out that she had been pregnant or just that she had a child, then they exiled her. Assuming that's the real reason for her exile, which I still doubt. But the timetable alone does not disprove it.

Sorry, but what he actually says is this:

Disciple: "Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing. Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques.It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order."

"Until" might suggest right up to the point when she left, as you suggest, but Mical really just says "before", which could mean a year or a decade before she left. On the contrary, it seems clear from this comment that Revan's last master was also his first. It would seem obvious that this master is Kreia. Whether she is also Kae is another matter, though Mical also says, "As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled."

I don't think so. Revan didn't fall just before the Mandalorian Wars, but rather during the wars, closer toward the end.


Agreed. I find any speculation about Kreia's true age to be highly debatable. As Atton says, "She may have been good-looking once, but it takes some hard living to make creases like that."

According to Wookieepedia, she is 25 in TSL, given that the game takes place in 3951 BBY. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Brianna

So that would make Kreia... What, 55 years old when she was born. :roleyess:

Shem, not if kreia despite the fact she looks 80, is only around 65 at the time of TSL, seeing as how using DS corrupted her

And may I ask how Wookieepedia can know how old exactly Brianna is?

To me Kreia is very old. 70-80. And she is not corrupted (in her appearance) the way other people are. By the way, not everyone who falls to the darkside turns ugly. Just look at Bandon. Dooku.

In the movies, only Palpatine is "deformed" and "scarred". Dooku, Maul are not. And Vader's uglyness is due to his injuries I'd say.


Also, I doubt that when developers worked on Kotor I, they already got Kreia in their mind.

^^^^
Also considering Kreia has a corrupted look in the "exiled" cutscene.. and it wasn't her age. Pasty skin, black eyes and a wicked robe.. same wrinkly face though :xp:

Sorry, but Kreia (imo) just looks as if she's already ancient without the DS helping her along.. hehehe

We've never seen Kreia before she fell to the dark side. The "exiled cutscene" is when she is cast from power by the other Sith Lords, who then assumed her power. You'd think she had already fallen before then... ;)

I'll accept it for lack of a better source. But fine - prove Wookieepedia wrong...

And of those characters, who does Kreia remind us the most of?

Besides, ages are pretty odd in Star Wars at times. I mean, did Anakin seem to be about 46 years old in Episode VI, when he took off the mask? Well, he was (actually, he wasn't even quite 46 yet)... Did Obi-Wan seem to be 57 at the time of his death? He was... Palpatine, however, is presumed to have been around 86 at his time of death, yet doesn't seem to have aged much physically during the last 20 or so years of his life.

And we know that Kreia is scarred just from listening to Atton: "It takes some hard living to make creases like that." Even "the fool" Atton knows that Kreia marked by her life - her atrophied eyes might have been a clue - so it seems more than reasonable to assume for me.

Kreia might be as old as you think, or she may not even be 60 yet. We simply don't know. If I think she's only 57 - like Obi-Wan in Episode VI, which doesn't seem unreasonable to me - then who's going to decide whether I'm right or wrong? I'd rather we just stuck to discussing what we actually know...

Sure, but so what? Adding characters and events to blank parts of established characters' pasts is quite common in fiction, so I don't see your point.

What are you guys saying. Kreias hot!

J/k peeps, no need to worry. On a serious note, i hate this rumour. I see it floating around all the time and i think TSL divulges enoguh information for you to interpret that Kreia and Kae are two seperate individuals. If all this were true then i would have thought that when you can get Handmaidens mothers robe, Kreia would react to it.

It's funny of the things that come if you think about it.

I went through some old pictures I had and here are some that stick out.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/1746/handm43uw2.jpg
I don't see the resemblance between Brianna and Kreia. No freaking way.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1129/handm411sc4.jpg
Kreia beautiful? Oh boy! :roleyess:

i thought it could be possible, but there are some things that contradict.

Firstly, Kreia didnt say arren kae was exiled because she had brianna, she said it was controversial, secondly, Kreia was exiled because she was blamed for Revan due to her teaching, which would mean she had to have been still among the jedi during the mandalorian wars, whereas Arren Kae was among the jedi who went with Revan to fight, and was supposedly killed during the mandalorian wars.

Wookieepedia knows how old Brianna and Mical are (25) because that's how old the devs said they were. ;)

i think one big question we need to ask ourselves here is, who cares? Even if the information the game gives is ambiguous enough to justify that kreia is handmaiden's daughter, the fact is that it doesn't affect the story. The only relationship between the handmaiden and kreia that exists in the game is that handmaiden is used so that kreia can reach the Telos academy whenever she wants. And the only other thing is resentment for any feelings the exile might have for handmaiden because she thinks it will weaken him.

The dev's give neither any indication that kreia is her mother, nor does any of the dialogue in the game. This whole thing is based on a "but they dont say she's not" argument, but they don't have to, Kreia doesn't like handmaiden, and as atton says, the only reason she had her onboard is as a pawn. Not only that, but she didn't fight in the Mandalorian Wars, unlike handmaiden's mother, as kreia was only exiled from the jedi AFTER the mandalorian wars, as indicated by the holorecording of exile's trial.

Right. None at all...
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/6...briannamc2.jpg

Atton: "She may have been good-looking once, but it takes some hard living to make creases like that."

Actually, she does...

Kreia: "You are spending time with the servant of Atris. I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named Arren Kae. Jedi are forbidden to have children, and when the crime finally came to light almost a decade later, Kae was exiled. She joined the Mandalorian Wars after the shame of her birth was revealed."

Even the Disciple says Kae was exiled:

Disciple: "As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled."

I find it more interesting why Kae was exiled. Disciple never says why, nor does the Handmaiden. Only Kreia does.

Kreia doesn't give us a specific time for when she was exiled. All she says is this:

Kreia: "If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea. That is why Atris and the others blamed me, sentenced me. They believed me responsible for Revan's fall."

However, we can easily conclude from the meeting with the masters that she was indeed exiled just prior to the Mandalorian Wars on the basis of how they respond to her.

Kavar: "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian Wars..."

Kreia: "Die? No - became stronger, yes."

Vrook: "Is this your new Master, exile? If so, then you follow Revan's path. Her teachings will cause you to fall as surely as he did.We sought to lure the Sith out... and now they have come to us."

None of the masters fought in the war, and indeed exiled all who did. If they thought Kreia had died during the wars, then she would have been exiled just around the same time as Kae. And note that Revan's alleged fall when he decided to go to war is what decides the matter - Revan was a knight right up to the point he and Malak split the order and left to fight the war. If the masters blamed Kreia, then that is exactly the time she would have been exiled.

she is not her mother it's just unintentional conjecture on obsidians part i tired of seeing this argument every were i go were this game is being discussed

According to who? You? Who appointed you judge and jury on the topic?

Fair enough. After all, you have every right to your opinion, whether I agree with it or not. Feel free not to click on subjects clearly marked as dealing with this in the future. You may be tired by this topic, but that doesn't mean the rest of us aren't allowed to pursue the discussion.

Jediphile, I’m sorry but I find this post to be an 'attack' style post. While discussion is one thing, these kinds of responses are not discussion. You did something similar to Vaelastraz above. Perhaps practice what you preach, if a post irritates you feel free to not respond to it. -RH

@RedHawke. I disagree violently. Besides, why I am told off, when the person I respond to is clearly responds to something that annoys him, and even says so himself. I could make a better case, but I do not wish to annoy anyone else here. I would be untruthful, however, if I did not admit that I feel you're being biased against me and singling me out here. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Jediphile, I’m sorry you feel that way, but the warning is valid... check your PM inbox. -RH

@RedHawke. Fair enough, but when I'm the ONLY person being told off in public, then your bias is showing. You do realize that, don't you? And as I told you in your PM box, you would not have had to tell me to cool it if you had done so to others first. I don't see that I have given offense here, but even if I did, I know I was not the first to do so - Jediphile

Jediphile, I'm sorry but there is no bias here, you do realise as I told you in my PM to you that I did previously warn everyone to "cool down" in this very thread. -RH

True enough :)

However in every instance in the history of the games.. the DS never corrupted ones appearance with "aging". Full-blown DS transitions (even Kreia's or Palpatine's if we stretch into the movies) has always been represented by 'veiny, pale, undeath-like' features.. but not one wrinkle in the whole lot. Palpy was already an old fart when he got all uglified :xp:

Why would Kreia's transitions be any different?

Kreia is the Handmaiden's father. :) Lol...

Truthfully, I don't see a connection.

Honestly I doubt it, there are a few things that seem to hint at it, but theres more against it. And since the Female Exile story seems to fit together a little bit better than the male story, I really doubt it. Besides, something as ugly as kriea having somthing as hot as Brianna, ugh.

This picture proves my point. Those two look nothing alike.

Originally Posted by Shem
Kreia beautiful? Oh boy!

..............Maybe an Ord Mantell farmer went to town on her or it could just be all that hard living Atton suggested. Besides, how old is the battleaxe anyway?

IIRC (and I might not) one of the devs said she was in her sixties.

To each his own - I think the exact opposite.

no but more light is shed on her trial in the holovid of the exile's trial, they mention her and her teachings, which would insinuate that she was not tried until the exile was tried, which was after malachor V, and after the end of the Mandalorian Wars.

She could not have been trailed after the Mandalorian Wars, because Master Kavar says to Kreia on Dantooine "I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars." Look, this is just my opinion, but to me, I think Kreia is definitely Kae.

I don’t feel like typing a mammoth post explaining why I think Kreia is Kae today, but I will some other day, perhaps tomorrow. All I’ll say at this stage is that it cannot be proven either way if Kreia is or isn’t Kae, but I’m convinced that she is. Nothing has come up which has convinced me otherwise so far.

By the way I agree with Jediphile, I can actually see the resemblance between Kreia and the Handmaiden. I think they do look alike; just try to imagine Kreia without wrinkles and those weird eyes.

i could have sworn he said "i thought you had died after the mandalorian wars", but ill hav to check again

I defer to the only person onboard the Ebon Hawk who knew Kreia before the fall, Mical:

Mical: I know you - not even the markings of the dark side can hide it. Why have you done this?

I think that's a pretty strong endorsement from Mical, that the dark side has sufficiently haggered Kreia's face enough to make her appear even older than she is.

I too believe that Kae and Kreia were the same person, and obsidian was just playing it subtle to avoid fans critiszim for the whole "Luke, I am your father!" bit. That's what I like about the whole conspiracy, it's subtle, like everything Kreia does.

i never said i was judge and jury on this and nor do i claim to be all i was doing was pointing out a fact that is in the game if you lisiten and pay attention to the story which can be difficult at times you will realise the kreia and the handmaidens mother are two completely different people and not one and the same

But it's precisely listening closely and paying attention to details that has led me to conclude that Kreia may indeed be Arren Kae. Note that I say "may", because there is no conclusive evidence, though there is circumstantial evidence to suggest it (many similarities between Kae and Kreia).

But neither is there anything that proves Kreia is not Kae. I've participated in this topic before, and nobody has been able to completely confirm or completely reject the idea. And we have looked VERY closely. I'm not the only one thinking Kreia may be Kae either, and was initially against it myself on the same basis that most who don't like the idea are, which seems to me to be primarily on a basis of shock and disgust. Which is fine as far as opinions go. But it neither proves nor disproves anything.

Evidence would seem to come from observations in the game's plot, events, and dialogue, regardless of whether we like their consequences or not. And I have yet to see an observation that indisputably established that Kreia cannot be Kae, especially when we consider that most of the information on the topic comes from Kreia herself, who is clearly trying to hide her identity, most obviously from the Disciple.