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-   -   Prove that jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=189434)

Achilles 06-08-2008 03:49 AM

Prove that jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes
 
No takers on the 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer, so perhaps we'll have better luck with this one:

Prove that jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes

EnderWiggin 06-08-2008 12:39 PM

How the heck do you expect me (a person of religion) to respond to that?

Your youtube friend has made it quite clear: Anyone who is intelligent will realize that Jesus is imaginary, and all other arguments are but excuses. The condescending language and oversimplified thought process is very put-offing.

:disaprove

_EW_

Achilles 06-08-2008 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnderWiggin (Post 2474864)
How the heck do you expect me (a person of religion) to respond to that?

However you would like to, my friend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnderWiggin (Post 2474864)
Your youtube friend has made it quite clear: Anyone who is intelligent will realize that Jesus is imaginary, and all other arguments are but excuses.

Could you please help me understand what flaws exist with his reasoning or arguments?

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnderWiggin (Post 2474864)
The condescending language and oversimplified thought process is very put-offing.

Re: condescension - how was his language condescending?

Re: "oversimplification" - oversimplified? You'll need to help me understand how you came to this conclusion as well, please.

Thanks in advance for your response.

EnderWiggin 06-08-2008 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles (Post 2474884)
However you would like to, my friend.

Well then, this is how I'm going to:

No.

I've seen what happens when theism/deism/atheism debates get started on LF and I'm not going to play. :)

Sorry, but maybe next time. Nothing personal, though.

_EW_

Achilles 06-08-2008 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnderWiggin (Post 2474889)
Well then, this is how I'm going to:

No.

:lol: But you already did!

You posted to let us know that you won't be posting?

EnderWiggin 06-08-2008 04:45 PM

I posted to tell you that your video made some pretty large leaps (of faith, one might say :D) and that I disagreed.

But now, I've thought better of it, because I tend to not stay as calm when discussing religion. I'd rather not post, and us stay on good terms.

_EW_

TKA-001 06-08-2008 04:47 PM

No offense, but what is the point of this type of discussion supposed to be? The way I see it, nothing good or interesting can come of them.

Achilles 06-08-2008 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnderWiggin (Post 2474897)
I posted to tell you that your video made some pretty large leaps

He quoted the bible chapter and verse. No leaps were made whatsoever.

If you don't like what he said or would otherwise prefer not to discuss it, that's one thing. To parse out unsubstantiated claims that there is something wrong with the arguments presented though is something else entirely.

Even if you choose not to discuss the topic, I hope that you will at least be willing to consider my comment above nonetheless.

Take care!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2474900)
No offense, but what is the point of this type of discussion supposed to be?

Perfect world? A christian participates, sees that the arguments are sound, and subsequently gives up his or her superstitious traditions.

What I like to think I'm settling for? People not that terribly religious but have grown up within a religious tradition see this discussion, realize that there doubts were well founded, and are inspired to speak out against irrational thinking where ever they find it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2474900)
The way I see it, nothing good or interesting can come of them.

You are welcome to your opinion of course. I think that if such discussions can do anything remotely like either of the scenarios above, then much good has come of them. That's my 2 cents.

El Sitherino 06-08-2008 06:48 PM

Note to posters. If a topic is of unworthy discussion then it may be in your best interest ,and that of the forums, to not post in said topic.

If you disagree with a point made in a discussion thread, it is common courtesy and sense to reply with reasonings to your point. It cannot be in any way a discussion if you simply say "I disagree". Otherwise it becomes a waste of time and my moderating abilities.

Enjoy your tea, Gentlemen.

Tyrion 06-09-2008 12:44 AM

There's enough historical evidence in religious texts(the bible, the koran) and secular references(Roman records) that more or less prove Jesus was a real historical figure. There isn't much modern evidence that suggest he is the son of God, though.

Achilles 06-09-2008 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrion (Post 2475133)
That being said, there's enough historical evidence in religious texts(the bible, the koran) and secular references(Roman records) that more or less prove Jesus was a real historical figure.

I'd be interested in knowing which sources you're referring too. Every source I've looked at makes reference to the existence of christianity, but that isn't the same thing (any more than finding evidence of a Harry Potter fan club is evidence of there being a real Harry Potter).

As such (again unless you have access to something that I haven't seen), there isn't any reason to assume that there was a historical Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrion (Post 2475133)
There isn't much modern evidence that suggest he is the son of God, though.

True. If there isn't any evidence for a historical Jesus, then the whole "son of god" thing falls apart too. However, even if there were evidence for a historical Jesus (specifically that jesus), then the question of divinity would still need to be addressed.

Rev7 06-09-2008 01:14 AM

I simply think that you are mis-interpreting the scriptures. :) I would explain a little bit more, but I really need to get to bed soon. :)

Quote:

If Jesus were real he would appear to each of us.
I certainly know that he has appeared to me. ;) I believe that he only 'appears' to us if we have a open-heart and truly believe in Him. :)
Quote:

Instead your prayer is ignored.
Really? Is there any proof to this?

I certainly know that this is not what you want to hear Achilles. Christianity is a religion of faith. That is all that it comes down to.

Thank you for reading.

Achilles 06-09-2008 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475143)
I simply think that you are mis-interpreting the scriptures. :) I would explain a little bit more, but I really need to get to bed soon. :)

I look forward to your reply after you've had an opportunity to rest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475143)
I certainly know that he has appeared to me. ;) I believe that he only 'appears' to us if we have a open-heart and truly believe in Him. :)

A physical manifestation that could only be jesus appeared to you (hopefully with witnesses)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475143)
Really? Is there any proof to this?

Well, unless jesus physically appears to you, then yes. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475143)
I certainly know that this is not what you want to hear Achilles. Christianity is a religion of faith. That is all that it comes down to.

As is islam, paganism, ancestor worship, hinduism, and any other religion you can think of. I'm not seeing how that makes it special or unique...or, most importantly, true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475143)
Thank you for reading.

My pleasure. Look forward to seeing you again soon.

Tyrion 06-09-2008 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles (Post 2475136)
I'd be interested in knowing which sources you're referring too. Every source I've looked at makes reference to the existence of christianity, but that isn't the same thing (any more than finding evidence of a Harry Potter fan club is evidence of there being a real Harry Potter).

After further review(using Wikipedia, naturally), it appears that most early external sources do reference only Christians, not Jesus personally.

Achilles 06-09-2008 01:49 AM

I appreciate you looking anyway. Thank you, sir!

EDIT: Btw, Tyrion, you might enjoy the movie The God Who Wasn't There (assuming that you haven't seen it already). Trailer

Acrylic 06-09-2008 07:32 AM

I'd say Jesus being imaginary is a bunch of crap. How can a religion be started about someone who never existed? Also, he is mentioned in more than one type of religion: Islam, even.
The thing I DON'T believe though is that he was anything more than a man. Messenger, maybe, but God or 1/3 God....I don't think so.

Det. Bart Lasiter 06-09-2008 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic (Post 2475229)
I'd say Jesus being imaginary is a bunch of crap. How can a religion be started about someone who never existed?

Ever play the game "Telephone"?

Achilles 06-09-2008 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic (Post 2475229)
I'd say Jesus being imaginary is a bunch of crap. How can a religion be started about someone who never existed? Also, he is mentioned in more than one type of religion: Islam, even.

Are you arguing therefore that the titans must have really existed? The pantheon of Greek gods? The Roman gods? The Norse gods? The Egyptian gods? The Japanese gods? All the various gods from Native American mythology? Shall I go on?

I mean, how can a religion be started about someone who never existed?

(hint: you can't have it both ways)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic (Post 2475229)
The thing I DON'T believe though is that he was anything more than a man. Messenger, maybe, but God or 1/3 God....I don't think so.

Can you point to any evidence whatsoever that supports the argument that a man named Jesus existed where the stories said he did? The same sources that tell us of his existence also tell us that he was divine, so arguing that he was real but not divine seems an awful lot like cherry picking.

EnderWiggin 06-09-2008 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles (Post 2475292)
Can you point to any evidence whatsoever that supports the argument that a man named Jesus existed where the stories said he did? The same sources that tell us of his existence also tell us that he was divine, so arguing that he was real but not divine seems an awful lot like cherry picking.

Now you're arguing the other side? Does it really have to be all or nothing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles (Post 2475136)
christianity... that jesus ...unless jesus physically appears... islam, hinduism,...

Are they typos, are are you trying to make a point as to your regard for Jesus & religion?

_EW_

Achilles 06-09-2008 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnderWiggin (Post 2475501)
Now you're arguing the other side?

Not at all. What makes you say that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnderWiggin (Post 2475501)
Does it really have to be all or nothing?

Yes, what the source asserts is either true or it is not. That's just the way things work. That isn't my decision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnderWiggin (Post 2475501)
Are they typos, are are you trying to make a point as to your regard for Jesus & religion?

Don't ask what I do with dollar bills and sharpies.

Rev7 06-09-2008 07:59 PM

Okay, sorry that it has been a while, but I have been at school all day. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles (Post 2475147)
A physical manifestation that could only be jesus appeared to you (hopefully with witnesses)?

You see, Jesus appeared to me. Not physically, but He has appeared to me through acts, He has appeared by talking to me, ect.

Is it any different than air? In my case, you know that it is there, but you cannot actually see it.




Quote:

Well, unless jesus physically appears to you, then yes. :)
Okay...that doesn't nescisarily make sense to me. Could you please explain a little bit more?

Quote:

As is islam, paganism, ancestor worship, hinduism, and any other religion you can think of. I'm not seeing how that makes it special or unique...or, most importantly, true.
You will probably think that this is irrelevant, but I will still say it. :)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans 12:3 KJV
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myself
I simply think that you are mis-interpreting the scriptures. :)

Okay. I will get started...
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 (King James Version)
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Well, the same thing can be said abour prayer. If God is real, then how can he answer all of our prayers? There are still mysteries, that cannot be solved about Him. We cannot know everything about Him. ;) (IMO)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew 18:19-20 (King James Version)
19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Well, I believe that this is His presense. An "annointing"? As for the anything part, that doesn't necsicarily mean that he has to 'grant' it.

I know that you will just say that I have just made up another "excuse". This is my opinion, and aren't we all allowed to have our opinion. I know that you have your opinion on this matter (as well as others), and I have my opinion on these matters too. We all believe different things to be true. I want to let you know that I respect your opinion. :)
Quote:

My pleasure. Look forward to seeing you again soon.
As do I. :)

Achilles 06-09-2008 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475553)
Okay, sorry that it has been a while, but I have been at school all day. :)

No problem :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475553)
You see, Jesus appeared to me. Not physically, but He has appeared to me through acts, He has appeared by talking to me, ect.

Acts can be coincidental and "voices" can be the symptoms of psychosis. Per the video (and scripture) we know that jesus can appear to people and that he has appeared to people. So what good reason do we have to explain why he hasn't appeared to you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475553)
Is it any different than air? In my case, you know that it is there, but you cannot actually see it.

We have evidence for the existence of air, therefore the analogy does not apply :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475553)
Okay...that doesn't nescisarily make sense to me. Could you please explain a little bit more?

If you prayed for jesus to appear and he did not, then your prayer was not answered. Therefore we know that your prayer was ignored.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475553)
You will probably think that this is irrelevant, but I will still say it. :)
<snip>

This doesn't address my point. Other religions require faith as well, therefore you cannot argue that christianity is somehow unique in this regard or that requiring faith makes it true.

It requires faith to believe that invisible fairies ride around in my shirt pocket too, but that doesn't mean that they exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475553)
Okay. I will get started...
<snip>
Well, the same thing can be said abour prayer. If God is real, then how can he answer all of our prayers? There are still mysteries, that cannot be solved about Him. We cannot know everything about Him. ;) (IMO)

That doesn't tell me anything.

The passage clearly states that jesus can appear to people and has appeared to people. Are you disputing that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475553)
Well, I believe that this is His presense. An "annointing"? As for the anything part, that doesn't necsicarily mean that he has to 'grant' it.

Gee, that sounds very similar to Excuse #2 :xp:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475553)
I know that you will just say that I have just made up another "excuse". This is my opinion, and aren't we all allowed to have our opinion. I know that you have your opinion on this matter (as well as others), and I have my opinion on these matters too. We all believe different things to be true. I want to let you know that I respect your opinion. :)

We are entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts. :)

I understand that it is your opinion that he has misinterpreted those passages, however you haven't really presented an argument showing how he misinterpreted them or show why we should accept your opinion over his.

Take care.

M@RS 06-09-2008 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles (Post 2475599)
If you prayed for jesus to appear and he did not, then your prayer was not answered. Therefore we know that your prayer was ignored.

Now you have a little bit mad...to this quote, yes it wasn't answered, but not because he doesn't exist, it's because he didn't feel it would help you...for example say I prayed for a Porsche, would he give to me, it depends on how I am, if I always take take take, and never give back, then no, I'm not going to get one, if I'm always giving in tithes and offerings, then I have a chance of getting one, it all depends on the person, and the consequence...

Achilles 06-09-2008 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M@RS (Post 2475603)
Now you have a little bit mad...to this quote, yes it wasn't answered, but not because he doesn't exist, it's because he didn't feel it would help you...for example say I prayed for a Porsche, would he give to me, it depends on how I am, if I always take take take, and never give back, then no, I'm not going to get one, if I'm always giving in tithes and offerings, then I have a chance of getting one, it all depends on the person, and the consequence...

We aren't talking about a Porsche. We're talking about someone that, according to scripture:

1) Can appear to us
2) Has appeared to others
3) Is already among us

Not asking for a car. Not asking for money. Just asking him to do something that he (allegedly) can do and has (allegedly) already done.

M@RS 06-09-2008 09:57 PM

Can you not read the "For Example" part, if not I'll make it bigger...

Achilles 06-09-2008 10:08 PM

You can make the text as large as you like but it isn't going to make your analogy comparable.

M@RS 06-09-2008 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles (Post 2475617)
You can make the text as large as you like but it isn't going to make your analogy comparable.

You did this in the last thread... :disaprove it was an example, GOOD LORD! don't you get that?! EXAMPLE! it was so you could get it, it's not supposed to be what you're talking about, it's an example.

Achilles 06-09-2008 10:17 PM

Yes, I get that. And I am pointing out that it is a poor one; jesus appearing and god giving you a car are not comparable.

M@RS 06-09-2008 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles (Post 2475623)
Yes, I get that. And I am pointing out that it is a poor one; jesus appearing and god giving you a car are not comparable.

It's an example, if you want a better one just tell me...

Achilles 06-09-2008 10:27 PM

Yeah, if you have a better one, that would be great.

M@RS 06-09-2008 10:30 PM

Okay, first of all I think I should apologize, for screaming at you like I did. I'm sorry, I read Romans 2 and I felt I should apologize.

And another example, hmm, give me a while to think about this one...

Alright, let's take an omniscent Bumblebee (transformers) and Sam asked Bumblebee to show himself to Sam, and Bumblebee didn't because someone else had claimed that Bumblebee showed up to them and had coffe with them... Now let's put that in the sense of God and you...if God (Jesus) showed himself to you and you went telling other people, noone would believe you because people have already made a mockery of it, like I had coffee with Jesus or lunch...They would make fun of you, and if you were a christian, then God wouldn't show himself...

Does that work?

Rev7 06-09-2008 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles (Post 2475599)
Acts can be coincidental and "voices" can be the symptoms of psychosis. Per the video (and scripture) we know that jesus can appear to people and that he has appeared to people. So what good reason do we have to explain why he hasn't appeared to you?

Yes I know that He has appeared to people. He can appear to anyone and has done so. My mother has a picture of Jesus standing on the wing of an airplane. Her friend gave this to her in the 1980's. I cannot prove that to you though because I don't personally have the picture. It is not on the Internet either. :) That is all that I will say about that for now, and all that I will say about it. ;)
Quote:

We have evidence for the existence of air, therefore the analogy does not apply :)
I believe that we have evidence of existance of Jesus too. The Bible. :)

Quote:

If you prayed for jesus to appear and he did not, then your prayer was not answered. Therefore we know that your prayer was ignored.
Yup. You do not really know if our prayer was ignored. How do you really have proof of this?

Quote:

This doesn't address my point. Other religions require faith as well, therefore you cannot argue that christianity is somehow unique in this regard or that requiring faith makes it true.

It requires faith to believe that invisible fairies ride around in my shirt pocket too, but that doesn't mean that they exist.
Other religions require faith too. I am not saying that they don't.

That is exactly what I am saying Achilles. It does require faith to believe that invisible fairies are riding around in your shirt pocket. It does require faith to believe that Jesus exists.

What about gravity? We know that it keeps us on Earth. For all we know, we have invisible fairies holding us down. ;)

Quote:

The passage clearly states that jesus can appear to people and has appeared to people. Are you disputing that?
Not at all. :)

Quote:

Gee, that sounds very similar to Excuse #2 :xp:
I knew that you would say that. ;)

"You will probably think that this is irrelevant, but I will still say it."

Quote:

We are entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts. :)

I understand that it is your opinion that he has misinterpreted those passages, however you haven't really presented an argument showing how he misinterpreted them or show why we should accept your opinion over his.
Are you saying that the people that make up the "facts" are really stating their own opinion?



Quote:

Take care.
You too.

Achilles 06-09-2008 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M@RS (Post 2475632)
And another example, hmm, give me a while to think about this one...
<snip>
Does that work?

You're still trying to use an example of something relatively extraordinary as an analogy for something relatively ordinary.

Even if he would not appear to me for fear that I would mock him (even though I've stated repeatedly that all it would take for me to become a believer is some evidence), that doesn't explain why he does not appear to you or Rev7.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475635)
Yes I know that He has appeared to people. He can appear to anyone and has done so. My mother has a picture of Jesus standing on the wing of an airplane. Her friend gave this to her in the 1980's. I cannot prove that to you though because I don't personally have the picture. It is not on the Internet either. :) That is all that I will say about that for now, and all that I will say about it. ;)

Sounds like an interesting picture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475635)
I believe that we have evidence of existance of Jesus too. The Bible. :)

We have evidence for allah via the qu'ran, for the Flying Spaghetti Monster via the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and for Harry Potter via the best selling books. But I'm willing to bet that you aren't a muslim, a Pastafarian, or a pracitioner of wizardry. Why not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475635)
Yup. You do not really know if our prayer was ignored. How do you really have proof of this?

Either the prayer was answered or it was not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475635)
Other religions require faith too. I am not saying that they don't.

You're not responding to the argument in it's entirety. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475635)
That is exactly what I am saying Achilles. It does require faith to believe that invisible fairies are riding around in your shirt pocket. It does require faith to believe that Jesus exists.

Does this mean that you will now pray to invisible fairies, magic teapots, or any other silly thing I think up as an example?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475635)
What about gravity? We know that it keeps us on Earth. For all we know, we have invisible fairies holding us down. ;)

Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis? Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis over any of the other countless possible explanations that are all equally untestable?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475635)
Not at all. :)

Then I'm struggling to understand what your point was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475635)
I knew that you would say that. ;)

Yes you did. Which tells me that you're smart enough to know better :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475635)
Are you saying that the people that make up the "facts" are really stating their own opinion?

No, what I'm saying is, "don't bring opinions to a fact fight". ;)

Your opinions do not change what the bible says. If you are not disputing what the bible says, then you are not discounting the author's arguments. And if you are not discounting the author's arguments then I'm left to wonder on what grounds you are contesting what he said (since that seemed to be your original point).

M@RS 06-09-2008 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles (Post 2475651)
You're still trying to use an example of something relatively extraordinary as an analogy for something relatively ordinary.

Even if he would not appear to me for fear that I would mock him (even though I've stated repeatedly that all it would take for me to become a believer is some evidence), that doesn't explain why he does not appear to you or Rev7.

As I said in the above, if I told someone that I was a christian and Jesus had shown himself to me, they would say that I was a religious freak and make fun of me AND God...

And hopefully here is some evidence (a story is about to be told about my father below)

My dad was going through a really hard time, and at a service he went to the altar and was praying to God to give him his identity, no sooner had he thought the word IDENTITY, the pastor said, _______ God has told me to tell you one word, IDENTITY... Today my dad's a pastor and he's never been happier

Rev7 06-09-2008 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles (Post 2475651)
We have evidence for allah via the qu'ran, for the Flying Spaghetti Monster via the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and for Harry Potter via the best selling books. But I'm willing to bet that you aren't a muslim, a Pastafarian, or a pracitioner of wizardry. Why not?

Why not? I don't believe any of that stuff to be true, and wizardry is not a good thing in my eyes. ;) I am also not muslim. I don't believe those things to be true.
Quote:

Either the prayer was answered or it was not.
Okay? How do you know that it wasn't answered?
Quote:

You're not responding to the argument in it's entirety. :rolleyes:
I don't understand what you are saying. I know what faith is.

Quote:

Does this mean that you will now pray to invisible fairies, magic teapots, or any other silly thing I think up as an example?
Where exactly did I say that?

Quote:

Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis? Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis over any of the other countless possible explanations that are all equally untestable?
I don't accept that as truth. I was just making a point. Whether or not you saw that point, I don't know. :)

I am curious why a large number of people believe that Jesus was real/is real? Are you saying that all of these people are irrational?

Quote:

Then I'm struggling to understand what your point was.
That he does/can appear to people?
Quote:

Yes you did. Which tells me that you're smart enough to know better :)
I was putting myself in your shoes. ;)

Quote:

No, what I'm saying is, "don't bring opinions to a fact fight". ;)
Okay, I guess that I mis-interpreted you then. I am sorry.

Quote:

Your opinions do not change what the bible says. If you are not disputing what the bible says, then you are not discounting the author's arguments. And if you are not discounting the author's arguments then I'm left to wonder on what grounds you are contesting what he said (since that seemed to be your original point).
I don't quite understand what you are trying to get across....how am I disputing what the Bible says....??


Good Night! :D

Achilles 06-09-2008 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M@RS (Post 2475653)
As I said in the above, if I told someone that I was a christian and Jesus had shown himself to me, they would say that I was a religious freak and make fun of me AND God...

Completely irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M@RS (Post 2475653)
And hopefully here is some evidence (a story is about to be told about my father below)
<snip>

"Pinch, poke, you owe me a coke" is your evidence for god?

M@RS 06-10-2008 12:02 AM

You're not making any sense whatsoever...in what's with the "coke" saying...you asked for evidence I gave you a second hand story I was told from my dad...That's evidence isn't it? I forgot to say that, he experienced the whole thing, you think he'd lie to me?

Achilles 06-10-2008 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475657)
Why not? I don't believe any of that stuff to be true, and wizardry is not a good thing in my eyes. ;) I am also not muslim. I don't believe those things to be true.

Why do you believe in christianity? Thus far you have just as much evidence for that as you do these other things. Is your selection arbitrary?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475657)
Okay? How do you know that it wasn't answered?

Because jesus didn't appear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475657)
I don't understand what you are saying. I know what faith is.

"Faith" is not a good argument. If you know that "faith" is required for other things, then "faith" doesn't seem like a particularly rigorous way of determining truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475657)
Where exactly did I say that?

It was a question. You're free to answer however you'd like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475657)
I don't accept that as truth. I was just making a point. Whether or not you saw that point, I don't know. :)

Your point wasn't much of a point :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475657)
I am curious why a large number of people believe that Jesus was real/is real? Are you saying that all of these people are irrational?

Since this isn't Kavar's I think I'm still allowed to say "yes".

..at least with regards to their beliefs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475657)
That he does/can appear to people?

What is your evidence? If you believe this is true then what is your source of contention with the author's video?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475657)
I was putting myself in your shoes. ;)

Being able to figure out what someone else is going to say before they say it is a good skill to have. The best way to apply it is to not say what you were going to if their response isn't something you can counter. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev7 (Post 2475657)
I don't quite understand what you are trying to get across....how am I disputing what the Bible says....??

If you are contesting what the author says then you are contesting what the bible says. If you are not contesting what the bible says, then you cannot contest what the author says. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that what the author says skews what it actually said in the bible. Which you have opted not to do up to this point.

I hope that helps to clarify.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M@RS (Post 2475668)
You're not making any sense whatsoever...in what's with the "coke" saying...

This should help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M@RS (Post 2475668)
you asked for evidence I gave you a second hand story I was told from my dad...That's evidence isn't it?

No sir it is not. No more so than it is evidence that your father's pastor was psychic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M@RS (Post 2475668)
I forgot to say that, he experienced the whole thing, you think he'd lie to me?

No need for lies. I have no doubt that the events really happened. I have every reason to doubt that they signify what you seem to think they signify (or what he thought they signified, etc).

M@RS 06-10-2008 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles (Post 2475681)
Why do you believe in christianity? Thus far you have just as much evidence for that as you do these other things. Is your selection arbitrary?

Because jesus didn't appear.

"Faith" is not a good argument. If you know that "faith" is required for other things, then "faith" doesn't seem like a particularly rigorous way of determining truth.

It was a question. You're free to answer however you'd like.

Your point wasn't much of a point :)

Since this isn't Kavar's I think I'm still allowed to say "yes".

..at least with regards to their beliefs.

What is your evidence? If you believe this is true then what is your source of contention with the author's video?

Being able to figure out what someone else is going to say before they say it is a good skill to have. The best way to apply it is to not say what you were going to if their response isn't something you can counter. :)

If you are contesting what the author says then you are contesting what the bible says. If you are not contesting what the bible says, then you cannot contest what the author says. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that what the author says skews what it actually said in the bible. Which you have opted not to do up to this point.

I hope that helps to clarify.

This should help.

No sir it is not. No more so than it is evidence that your father's pastor was psychic.

No need for lies. I have no doubt that the events really happened. I have every reason to doubt that they signify what you seem to think they signify (or what he thought they signified, etc).

Okay first of all, don't treat me stupid, with the Jinx I know what it is, what I asked was why did you say that? And they do signify what my father and I knew it signified, show how it wasn't :carms:

Achilles 06-10-2008 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M@RS (Post 2475687)
Okay first of all, don't treat me stupid, with the Jinx I know what it is, what I asked was why did you say that?

That isn't what you asked at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M@RS (Post 2475687)
And they do signify what my father and I knew it signified, show how it wasn't :carms:

The burden of proof is yours, sir. There are numerous possible explanations, not the least of which is the aforementioned psychic abilities (which I don't believe either but since I can't rule it out...). Therefore, the conclusion that you've accepted is not the only one and the others have not been ruled out.

The fact that we have the "jinx" game tells us that people thinking or saying things at the same time is by no stretch of the imagination a rare occurrence.


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