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-   -   Obsidian CEO still wants to make KotOR 3 (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=198377)

Char Ell 06-14-2009 02:04 PM

Obsidian CEO still wants to make KotOR 3
 
GameBanshee's Buck Birnbaum recently interviewed Obsidian Entertainment CEO Feargus Urquhart and posed the following question.

Quote:

GB: With BioWare's Star Wars: The Old Republic MMORPG on the horizon, do you personally think there will ever be a "true" Star Wars: KotOR III? Why or why not?

Feargus: I don't really know. A part of me hopes that there will be, because I think we can do things in the more single player story based RPGs that you just can't do in an MMORPG. Like I said, I really hope that there is one, with BioWare busy on the MMO; I hope LucasArts gives us a shot at making KotOR III.
Source: GameBanshee

There you have it folks. Obsidian still wants to make a single player KotOR 3. With the SWTOR MMORPG in the works does anybody think that LucasArts will even consider it? IMHO highly unlikely.

urluckyday 06-14-2009 02:15 PM

^Too bad Obsidian couldn't make the better of the 2 KOTOR's...it'd be nice to see KOTOR 3...unfortunately...if it's not made by Bioware...it will just be the third one...nothing special really...

Good to hear that someone still wants to make it at least...

cire992 06-14-2009 10:51 PM

^ What if Bioware remade TSL based on the Obsidian design documents? Same game, same dev cycle, twice the available man hours.

Hehe, You hear that LA? This CEO wants to make you money.

Trench 06-14-2009 10:58 PM

I preferred the overall make-up of the first KotOR. The cut-scenes seemed a little cleaner, the gameplay smoother, and frankly, I like the graphics of the first one better. But if they were to make a K3 I would cheer them on until the end. *whispers sneakily* And if they can't get the permission of LucasArts, they could make K3 as a huge mod for K2. It could be accessed via alternate launcher.

Q 06-14-2009 11:01 PM

LA will never let Obsidian make KotOR3 because they failed to meet that ridiculous time table.

Hell, all of Avellone's characters are already being retconned out of existence, if that's any indication.

Jeff 06-14-2009 11:03 PM

I think the answer I got from Tom Nichols at E3 this year gives us the answer.

Quote:

Was there ever a KOTOR 3 in development, or even talked about being developed?

Tom Nichols: No.
http://www.starwarsmmo.net/news/star...lic-interview/

I hope it happens, but I just don't think it will. If Obsidian had had more time to develop TSL I think it could have been superior to the original. So between the two developers I would have probably rather seen Obsidian make KotOR 3 if SW:TOR wasn't happening. I guess anything is possible when it can make LucasArts money, but they will make so much on The Old Republic already.

edit:
Quote:

LA will never let Obsidian make KotOR3 because they failed to meet that ridiculous time table.

Hell, all of Avellone's characters are already being retconned out of existence, if that's any indication.
Yeah, it's too bad that BioWare is pretty much not acknowledging the existence of TSL at all.

Q 06-14-2009 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 2635309)
If Obsidian had had more time to develop TSL I think it could have been superior to the original.

Agreed.

Too bad that they didn't. It remains one of the biggest "what-ifs" in gaming.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff
Yeah, it's too bad that BioWare is pretty much not acknowledging the existence of TSL at all.

I don't think that it's just BioWare, Jeff; it's LA. I think that they want everyone to forget that TSL ever existed, because it was the ultimate result of a failed policy of theirs. It caused LA a considerable amount of embarrassment and they caught a lot of flak over it.

Jeff 06-15-2009 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qliveur (Post 2635316)
I don't think that it's just BioWare, Jeff; it's LA. I think that they want everyone to forget that TSL ever existed, because it was the ultimate result of a failed policy of theirs. It caused LA a considerable amount of embarrassment and they caught a lot of flak over it.

Probably right. Explains why it took so long to hear anything about the next game in that universe.

Also, I have a comment about another answer in that interview.

Quote:

GB: It's a well-known fact that quite a bit of content was cut from your first project, Star Wars: KotOR II, prior to its release. Can you give us a little insight into the decisions you had to make during the game's development, as well as what correspondence took place between LucasArts and Obsidian Entertainment as the release date drew nearer?

Feargus: This is a real tough thing to answer, because the real answer is really long and complicated. So, what I'll say is that all games have content cut from them during development. Unfortunately, two things happened with KotOR 2. First, we did not strip it completely out and people were able to find it. Not that I'm trying to sweep it under the rug, but if we hadn't left the stuff in there then the fact that it was missing would never have clouded anything. The second is that we did run out of time to adequately polish the final area.
I think in the long run it was better that the cut content was left partially in the game. People would have thought Obsidian was just an average developer if we were made to believe that TSL's ending was the real finished ending. At least now we know it was mostly on LucasArts.

DarthJacen 06-15-2009 01:43 AM

Money makes the world go round.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan 06-15-2009 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qlivuer
LA will never let Obsidian make KotOR3 because they failed to meet that ridiculous time table.

Hell, all of Avellone's characters are already being retconned out of existence, if that's any indication.

Quote:

Was there ever a KOTOR 3 in development, or even talked about being developed?

Tom Nichols: No.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff
Yeah, it's too bad that BioWare is pretty much not acknowledging the existence of TSL at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qliveur
I don't think that it's just BioWare, Jeff; it's LA. I think that they want everyone to forget that TSL ever existed, because it was the ultimate result of a failed policy of theirs. It caused LA a considerable amount of embarrassment and they caught a lot of flak over it.

Oh, the inhumanity!

Char Ell 06-15-2009 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 2635309)
I hope it happens, but I just don't think it will. If Obsidian had had more time to develop TSL I think it could have been superior to the original. So between the two developers I would have probably rather seen Obsidian make KotOR 3 if SW:TOR wasn't happening. I guess anything is possible when it can make LucasArts money, but they will make so much on The Old Republic already.

I could have seen KotOR 3 being designed as a lead in for the Old Republic. But at this point there seems no evidence or even rumors to support that idea.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 2635309)
edit:
Yeah, it's too bad that BioWare is pretty much not acknowledging the existence of TSL at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qliveur (Post 2635316)
I don't think that it's just BioWare, Jeff; it's LA. I think that they want everyone to forget that TSL ever existed, because it was the ultimate result of a failed policy of theirs. It caused LA a considerable amount of embarrassment and they caught a lot of flak over it.

I wish I would have taken some screenshots of the story background that was on the TOR website when it first launched. I thought I saw some mention of the Exile back then but now can't seem to find it. If LucasArts and BioWare are minimalizing SW history as set forth in TSL then the one thing they haven't gotten away from is the hidden existence of the Sith, which concept was introduced by TSL. KotOR provided Revan but it was pretty much a self-contained story. Sure you have the shade of Ajunta Pall talking about where the Sith's power came from in KotOR but Obsidian are the ones who introduced the concept of Revan leaving for the Unknown Regions after remembering the threat against the Republic that he had discovered. After all, is it not TSL's concept of the true Sith who have finally revealed themselves and come out of hiding to conquer the Republic?

DarthJacen 06-15-2009 02:33 AM

Nope, you're right, they have not actually done away with TSL. They, just, hint at it, rather than openly say, so.

cire992 06-15-2009 02:53 AM

Well heck all, who knows what might happen. When you consider the share amount of media that's been developed for KOTOR in just the last few years you realize that the IP (despite a paucity of rpgs) is actually pretty alive (See Duke Nukem Forever). I mean the old republic era is even pretty well established now in the star wars canon, and is owned by the original merchandising giant, Lucas.

Now, TSL.

TSL was darker than KOTOR. Maybe that's why LA wants it to go away. No more tsl, no more Dark Forces, no more Shadows of any Evil Empires, no... LA bigwigs want cute padawans and cartoony graphics with rainbows, dancing gungans and emo sith lords. E for everyones' kids' autistic friends. You dig it, Lucas and crew? Money.
You want good games? Get your kids into T to M rated games, then we can spend all our time and money developing shovelware that doesn't suck. Like TSL: The Lost Levels! Let's face it, Avellone and Feargus don't have much pull in the matter, it's LucasArts' table, they're supposed to make an offer, not the developer. And as someone mentioned above, it's never good to not be in good terms with the license holder. The client is ALWAYS right, no matter how wrong and neglectful they really are.

jrrtoken 06-15-2009 11:45 AM

The biggest problem with TOR is that they have not explained how the Jedi Order was rebuilt after the Jedi Civil War, and more specifically, the First Jedi Purge. It's as if the war was nothing more than a small skirmish, a footnote in history, while as we saw in TSL, the war brought the Republic to near death. That also brings up the question of what happened to the Exile's companions. After all, they were supposed to rebuild the order, and as of now, that has been totally ignored.

What perplexes me most, is the fact that BioWare has been continuously using Mark Griskey's score for TSL in their media, which seems to negate their retconning of K2. I mean, if they want everyone to overlook TSL, then they should keep mum on the subject entirely.

If Obsidian wants to do K3, then by all means, give them two to three years, more funds, and a larger development team, and they'll whip a product that will be on par with BioWare's polish, but have a much better plot and C&C than BioWare has ever done.

Sharen Thrawn 06-15-2009 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 2635309)
I think the answer I got from Tom Nichols at E3 this year gives us the answer.

http://www.starwarsmmo.net/news/star...lic-interview/

No offence to you Jeff, but isn't Tom Nichols, well, flat-out lying here? We heard long time ago about K3 pre-production team being disbanded, last year some concept arts leaked from that cancelled project + it's even mentioned in the official "Rogue Leaders" book about the history of LucasArts.

Lord of Hunger 06-15-2009 02:23 PM

First of all, I think everyone is jumping at shadows. No offense intended. Why? Because TSL despite it's cut content is the true progenitor of TOR.

As I've said before, the default format of Star Wars has been dashing hero overcomes great odds to save the love interest, destroy the deus ex machina, and defeat the evil overlord. KOTOR was that format, but it was done rather well and with Jolee Bindo and the Sith Academy of Korriban we had a look beyond the confines of LS vs. DS.

Then along comes Obsidian and TSL, the very first personal epic in a Star Wars context. The game was not about the quest, it was about you/the Exile and how you/she/he deal/deals/dealt with the past, present, and future. This was a monumental change! But due to the structure of the RPG, there is a limit as to how far that can go.

TOR will change everything. The era of overpowered Skywalkers and Secret Apprentices and overarching quests to save the Galaxy from the EVIL SITH for the two hundreth time is over. This is the era of the Star Wars fan, who has always dreamed of holding his/her own custom lightsaber and using the Force to trip Mission Vao, building his/her own story in a full interactive world.

[HERESY]I hope to God that a K3 never happens, not only because of above reasons. A K3 would be completely overboard since TSL closed that section of the canon until TOR. I am part of a total conversion that is building a K3, and it is already hard enough to build such a mod without the storyline being a stretch. I say we let Bioware, which is obviously taking the lessons of TSL to heart, build this MMO and make tons of money from it. Better an MMO with some Clone Wars architecture than a second TFU. No more Skywalkers after Cade, no winy emo Jedi like Anakin, no more random overpowered Force users like Galen. Let the fans take over from here, Lucas.[/HERESY]

Son of Skywalker15 06-15-2009 03:50 PM

Having talked to Chris Avellone a few times now, knowing the passion he has for the story he wants to finish, I say let them finish the game series; give them the chance that BOTH parties botched, in a way, the first time around. Have Bioware MAKE the story in TOR work with it-- if money's all they care about, that's fine, just make it worth my money to care, buy, and enjoy both things. I'm sure the writers over at Bioware have a way to talk with Obsidian writers ; ) Let Obsidian know what they plan on doing and they can use it to give us a real Kotor III.

Obsidian can do a third, real single player RPG Kotor III justice and can work with TOR, I feel. They just need to focus. Now, being given the opportunity is something totally different. I sadly don't think Lucasarts will say yes because they feel they can finish the story with TOR; I find that silly-- writers are paid to write well, right? Have them write well enough for both to work.

So, basically: Obsidian SHOULD do a Kotor III based of what TOR gives them, but I doubt highly Lucasarts will let them. We shall see, however; we shall see...

Zerimar Nyliram 06-15-2009 05:23 PM

People! What happened to The Sith Lords wasn't Obsidian's fault! LucasArts were the ones who rushed the release in time for Christmas of '04, so Obsidian didn't have a choice but to wrap things up in a hurry. They're a very talented company, and judging from the first third of the game, it could have been even better than the first had they been allowed to finish what they were doing.

I would have no problems at all with a third game developed by Obsidian, as long as LucasArts leaves them well enough alone to be creative, other than occasionally jumping in to make sure it doesn't conflict with established Star Wars canon. LucasArts should play the same role in the game's development that the government should play in the economy: very limited overseeing from afar.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan 06-15-2009 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger
[HERESY]I hope to God that a K3 never happens, not only because of above reasons. A K3 would be completely overboard since TSL closed that section of the canon until TOR. I am part of a total conversion that is building a K3, and it is already hard enough to build such a mod without the storyline being a stretch. I say we let Bioware, which is obviously taking the lessons of TSL to heart, build this MMO and make tons of money from it. Better an MMO with some Clone Wars architecture than a second TFU. No more Skywalkers after Cade, no winy emo Jedi like Anakin, no more random overpowered Force users like Galen. Let the fans take over from here, Lucas.[/HERESY]

http://www.retrorush.com/images/A-Te...hirt_small.jpg


:p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Skywalker15
Having talked to Chris Avellone a few times now, knowing the passion he has for the story he wants to finish, I say let them finish the game series; give them the chance that BOTH parties botched, in a way, the first time around. Have Bioware MAKE the story in TOR work with it-- if money's all they care about, that's fine, just make it worth my money to care, buy, and enjoy both things. I'm sure the writers over at Bioware have a way to talk with Obsidian writers ; ) Let Obsidian know what they plan on doing and they can use it to give us a real Kotor III.

Obsidian can do a third, real single player RPG Kotor III justice and can work with TOR, I feel. They just need to focus. Now, being given the opportunity is something totally different. I sadly don't think Lucasarts will say yes because they feel they can finish the story with TOR; I find that silly-- writers are paid to write well, right? Have them write well enough for both to work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zerimar
I would have no problems at all with a third game developed by Obsidian, as long as LucasArts leaves them well enough alone to be creative, other than occasionally jumping in to make sure it doesn't conflict with established Star Wars canon.

Agree 100%

Son of Skywalker15 06-15-2009 06:46 PM

Quote:

LucasArts should play the same role in the game's development that the government should play in the economy: very limited overseeing from afar.
I totally agree, but even Obsidian recently has said that they didn't take full advantage of the time they had. Granted, I think Lucasarts should have been more fair with the time, but that's another discussion.

I'm thinking, and hoping, Lucasarts has seen that fans do think an MMO and single player together can work, if done right, and will be smart and finish the Kotor game series and start a whole new chapter with TOR.

Darth Avlectus 06-15-2009 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urluckyday (Post 2635129)
^Too bad Obsidian couldn't make the better of the 2 KOTOR's...it'd be nice to see KOTOR 3...unfortunately...if it's not made by Bioware...it will just be the third one...nothing special really...

Good to hear that someone still wants to make it at least...

I think you put undue emphasis on company that makes it. Remember it was also about timing, as well. LA cut production short. K1 had 36 months whereas K2 only had ~ 1/3rd of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Te Mirdala Mand'alor (Post 2635303)
And if they can't get the permission of LucasArts, they could make K3 as a huge mod for K2. It could be accessed via alternate launcher.

Well, I think this has been addressed in the outer regions. What I've actually found is that fans have a hard time accepting anything so bold from other fans. They want such things to be official. Speaking myself as a sucker of canon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 2635309)
I think the answer I got from Tom Nichols at E3 this year gives us the answer.

http://www.starwarsmmo.net/news/star...lic-interview/

I hope it happens, but I just don't think it will. If Obsidian had had more time to develop TSL I think it could have been superior to the original.

Well, the best we could hope for regarding TSL is that Obsidian recognizes the work being done to run glitches out of K2 and restore the cut content. And that it is recognized by lucasarts.

Quote:

<snip>
edit:
Yeah, it's too bad that BioWare is pretty much not acknowledging the existence of TSL at all.
It's all a business competition thing. Hell, in the Darth Bane novels there was barely any acknowledgement in them of TSL at all--the author WAS the story writer for K1, Drew Karyshyn after all. Subtle minor details and the only way one could tell is that it uses minor details while it carefully moves around TSL.

I.E. in rule of two Freedon Nadd's tomb was visited and somehow there was some unexplored passageway and area hidden by an illusion cast by sith magics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qliveur (Post 2635316)
Agreed.

Too bad that they didn't. It remains one of the biggest "what-ifs" in gaming.

I'm sure given enough time someone will think what to do with it so that it can best turn up a profit.
Quote:

I don't think that it's just BioWare, Jeff; it's LA. I think that they want everyone to forget that TSL ever existed, because it was the ultimate result of a failed policy of theirs. It caused LA a considerable amount of embarrassment and they caught a lot of flak over it.
That said to me that LA is slightly more concerned with money. :dozey:

Suppose it is also a bit of side effects of modern society? It seems people have preconceived expectations: regardless how good any piece actually was, it will always be downplayed, underrated, and disliked for being a darker story. People are too used to this glorious happy friendly all fuzzy warm crap. Too Hollywood instead of more realistic. I know that it is becoming rarer all the time that we actually see such open ended stories requiring a more philisophical outlook and a bit of imagination.

Simply put: nothing in the "good ratings" of popular stuff seems to require people to use value judgments anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire992 (Post 2635374)
<snip>

Now, TSL.

TSL was darker than KOTOR. Maybe that's why LA wants it to go away. No more tsl, no more Dark Forces, no more Shadows of any Evil Empires, no... LA bigwigs want cute padawans and cartoony graphics with rainbows, dancing gungans and emo sith lords. E for everyones' kids' autistic friends. You dig it, Lucas and crew? Money.

Pretty much my sentiments. Characters like Han Solo, Dash Rendar, Lando Calrissian, Kyle Katarn, Boba Fett. These characters gave it so much depth and contrast.

Same sort of gripe with capcom and the megaman series. They kept gearing it to the younger audience and rehashing its old news like it was the next big thing. Having grown up with the original series I can say I feel a bit betrayed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PastramiX (Post 2635548)
The biggest problem with TOR is that they have not explained how the Jedi Order was rebuilt after the Jedi Civil War, and more specifically, the First Jedi Purge. It's as if the war was nothing more than a small skirmish, a footnote in history, while as we saw in TSL, the war brought the Republic to near death. That also brings up the question of what happened to the Exile's companions. After all, they were supposed to rebuild the order, and as of now, that has been totally ignored.

I hear ya.

It is canon that HK-47 survives through time and is still around in secret during the times of the separatists and the rise of Vader and The Empire:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/HK-47 so at least we know what will become of HK-47...I would not be surprised if he showed up sometime either in the Legacy series at ~130 ABY currently under development in the comics. Or in the next time period.

I would take bets, though, the HK series of droids did not die down so soon. That we'll see plenty of them in TOR.

Quote:

What perplexes me most, is the fact that BioWare has been continuously using Mark Griskey's score for TSL in their media, which seems to negate their retconning of K2. I mean, if they want everyone to overlook TSL, then they should keep mum on the subject entirely.
QFT

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan (Post 2635699)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Of Hunger
[HERESY]I hope to God that a K3 never happens, not only because of above reasons. A K3 would be completely overboard since TSL closed that section of the canon until TOR. I am part of a total conversion that is building a K3, and it is already hard enough to build such a mod without the storyline being a stretch. I say we let Bioware, which is obviously taking the lessons of TSL to heart, build this MMO and make tons of money from it. Better an MMO with some Clone Wars architecture than a second TFU. No more Skywalkers after Cade, no winy emo Jedi like Anakin, no more random overpowered Force users like Galen. Let the fans take over from here, Lucas.[/HERESY]

http://www.retrorush.com/images/A-Te...hirt_small.jpg

:laughing::lol::lol:
:rofl:
:rofl:

CrisG 08-19-2009 01:49 PM

I am studying TSL now, and it really feel that it brought some balance into the story, the dark side of things is one of the amazing parts of the entire SW epic, it is part of real life and it is very necessarily part of any balanced story arc for the SW universe.

I am curious about this quote from a past post....in this thread....

Quote:

I don't think that it's just BioWare, Jeff; it's LA. I think that they want everyone to forget that TSL ever existed, because it was the ultimate result of a failed policy of theirs. It caused LA a considerable amount of embarrassment and they caught a lot of flak over it.
what was the failed policy? i am trying to understand all of this, and along the way, I remind us that LucasArts has surprised us recently with a return to an older title, with their return to one of the MI games and a new one being released in episodic form, so there could be a new KOTOR , III or otherwise, ...for there are many ways it could be done. I think Obsidian could also do a good job on it. The circumstances of the rushing of release of TSL certainly are complex...and it was a fortunate thing that the lost files remained in the game set, for amazing work has been done by the community to restore it.

Darth InSidious 08-19-2009 02:24 PM

Honestly, on reflection I think a lot of people blame cut content for their dislike of TSL when what they really dislike is the game's plot itself; the cut content doesn't magically transform TSL into KotOR 1, nor would it have done. With it in place, the game is, however, hugely superior, since it does bring some closure to the stories of most of the companions. I think what a lot of people objected to was that it:

1) wasn't an epic tale of taking on TEH BIG BAD!!!1oneone!11 like KotOR 1;
2) lacked a STUNNING PLOT TWIST;
3) didn't allow you to play as Revan;
4) was a lot less jingoistic than K1.

CrisG 08-19-2009 03:10 PM

Those are very interesting points Darth, thanks for them.

Gurges-Ahter 08-19-2009 11:29 PM

I agree - it's hard not to be disappointed in TSL after you fall in love with the story and main characters in K1, and expect the sequel to continue that same story. However, in and of itself, TSL is the 2nd best video game I've ever played. It's just not the sequel I (and most people) expected.

BlazingPhoenix 08-20-2009 12:49 AM

I liked TSL even though it did not have the amount of finished stuff that KOTOR1 did. I hate the fact that Obsidian didn't get enough time to finish it. I hate that this happens with a lot of the newer games, they always have a set release date and not enough time to let the developers explore with their creativity.

Wookiee Rrudolf 08-20-2009 06:36 AM

@Darth InSidious I would agree with point 2 only. Lack of stunning plot twist is the biggest flaw of KotOR 2. As for the other points... Well the gaming industry is dividing into "Mature Gamer" piece and "Kid with console/PC" piece. Star Wars was always supposed to be E or T rated (in my country 12+). I think that TSL was too mature for kids of that age (they didn't understand its story) and next games' story would be more suitable for them - making them shiny, rainbows and pink unicorns instead of dark like in TSL.

Endorenna 08-20-2009 09:00 AM

Okay, I just read through this thread, and I have one question.

Why are y'all saying that Bioware is ignoring TSL? TOR is based on the True Sith, who were introduced in TSL! Sure, they haven't mentioned the Exile, but think of it this way--if you were living in the Star Wars galaxy, you would've heard of Revan, because Revan almost destroyed the Republic. No one in the Star Wars galaxy has heard of or even cares about the Exile. It only makes sense to have a lot more references to Revan than to the Exile. I'm sure there'll be a few references to her later in development.

Wookiee Rrudolf 08-20-2009 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endorenna (Post 2664326)
if you were living in the Star Wars galaxy, you would've heard of Revan, because Revan almost destroyed the Republic. No one in the Star Wars galaxy has heard of or even cares about the Exile. It only makes sense to have a lot more references to Revan than to the Exile.

Of course Revan is an icon and Great Hero of the Republic. But Exile should also be well known. She was the Last of the Jedi after Jedi Civil War (even though through the game there are other Jedi she ends up being the last one) and the one who rebuilt the Jedi Order. Not mentioning the Exile in TOR would be like not mentioning Skywalker in Legacy Era (OK, maybe I exaggerated a bit ;) ).

Endorenna 08-20-2009 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wookiee Rrudolf (Post 2664343)
Of course Revan is an icon and Great Hero of the Republic. But Exile should also be well known. She was the Last of the Jedi after Jedi Civil War (even though through the game there are other Jedi she ends up being the last one) and the one who rebuilt the Jedi Order. Not mentioning the Exile in TOR would be like not mentioning Skywalker in Legacy Era (OK, maybe I exaggerated a bit ;) ).

I never said there wouldn't be any referances to her, just not as many. They'll appear as the game develops. :) The Exile wouldn't be as well known as, say, Atton, because she went off to the Unknown regions immediately after Malachor blew up. Atton and the other companion Jedi went back and rebuilt the Order, not the Exile.

@Darth Insidious--As far as the stunning plot twist...well, I saw it coming about half-way through my first conversation with Carth (in the apartment on Taris). Never seemed too spectacular to me. :indif:

Darth InSidious 08-20-2009 02:07 PM

Apparently lucasforums is immune to sarcasm.

Mono_Giganto 08-20-2009 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth InSidious (Post 2664071)
2) lacked a STUNNING PLOT TWIST;

Honestly, so many games try to insert half-hearted plot twists these days, that not having a twist, in itself, is a twist.

jrrtoken 08-20-2009 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wookiee Rrudolf (Post 2664304)
I would agree with point 2 only. Lack of stunning plot twist is the biggest flaw of KotOR 2. As for the other points... Well the gaming industry is dividing into "Mature Gamer" piece and "Kid with console/PC" piece. Star Wars was always supposed to be E or T rated (in my country 12+). I think that TSL was too mature for kids of that age (they didn't understand its story) and next games' story would be more suitable for them - making them shiny, rainbows and pink unicorns instead of dark like in TSL.

I've introduced my 8-year-old nephew to K2, after K1, of course. He loved K1, mind you, but he enamored. Now, mind you, he is most likely more intelligent than his other peers, regardless of playing K2, but he's still a kid at heart, and for him to enjoy and understand the story (Well, at least that's from my observations) that's as "mature" as that, it's quite an impressive feat for something so deep.

It goes to show you that Star Wars does not have to be a watered-down ANH-clone for the ageless masses to enjoy it; Star Wars can be as deep and intricate as any other university-level literature.

Darth InSidious 08-20-2009 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mono_Giganto (Post 2664409)
Honestly, so many games try to insert half-hearted plot twists these days, that not having a twist, in itself, is a twist.

Oh, absolutely. Which is why I love Kreia's line about it so much:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kreia
Perhaps you were expecting some surprise, for me to reveal a secret that had eluded you, something that would change your perspective of events, shatter you to your core. There is no great revelation, no great secret. There is only you.

:D

Although that said, I thought ME's lack of one didn't help it at all.

Endorenna 08-20-2009 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth InSidious (Post 2664398)
Apparently lucasforums is immune to sarcasm.

Wow, people on Lucasforums are immune to return sarcasm. :thmbup1:

Allronix 08-20-2009 10:07 PM

Actually, the reasons it ticked me off?

1. Bugs.

To quote a gamer’s classic flick, “The system’s got more bugs than a bait store.” The damn game crashed every two hours (even without mods, and even on my brother in law’s X-box!), Revan’s gender changed three times in one conversation, conversation trees broke frequently, and quests were left unsolvable.

2. Unlikable characters

With K1, the characters are the central attraction. You got attached to them, cared about them. I caught myself avoiding a potentially DS action saying “Not in front of the kid, she’s had enough bad examples.” Or “I don’t want to give Carth any more reason to distrust me.” I loved listening to their stories. I wanted to give Juhani a hug. I wanted to listen to Jolee’s flippant riddles and Canderous’s warrior-bard retelling of his battles. I choked up when I wasn’t able to prevent Bastila from committing suicide by saber brawl.

By contrast, I really didn’t want to spend any time with the K2 cast. I found them disquieting, unpleasant, in dire need of a padded room, or all of the above. Juhani had her issues, but she was nowhere near as much a mess as Visas. I couldn’t pry Bao-Dur out of his shell. Handmaiden? You fight in the buff, and have a daddy fetish. Lovely, female gamers obviously weren’t a priority to Obsidian. Mical was a GREAT character concept, and he cleans up in fanfic. In game? You talk to him twice, Jedi him up, and that’s the end of it. Ditto with Mira. Atton needed to be sharing a cell with Gary Ridgeway. He totally came off as a sociopath. And then there’s Kreia. Force Bond or not, I was ready to shove her out an airlock multiple times. Everything out of her mouth was some snide remark about the others, some lesson on manipulation, or some lecture on how you didn’t meet her standards without so much as an option to tell her to sit on her lightsaber. Even better was how they sniped and backstabbed one another for the Exile’s favor like courtiers around a king.

I didn’t like them. I didn’t want to be around them. I found myself thinking more about how to manipulate the influence system over them than wanting to help them. If K1 was Baulder’s Gate with lightsabers, this was Blake’s 7 or Watchmen with lightsabers.


3. The feeling of futility

Not only was the company unpleasant, the trip was pointless. Save the Jedi Masters or kill them? Doesn’t matter. They still end up dead. Side with Czerka or the Ithorians? Doesn’t matter. Try changing things on Nar Shadaa? The level of futility borders on black comedy. Korriban? Nothing you choose really matters, either. It was also nice of them to go out of their way to take a gigantic whiz all over anything done in the first game. The Jedi? Dead, and their name in ruins. Korriban? A wasteland. The Republic? Still a mess. Just to add insult to injury, add things like Dustil being left to die/go insane in a Korriban tomb, Revan’s skull being used as Nihilus’s hood ornament, and the heroes that do return being a shadow of their K1 selves (with the exception of T3, who grew a personality).

Oh, and the complete this exercise in wasted time, you have one long, incoherent fight scene that tries and fails to wrap up loose ends, culminating in reaching the aforementioned old hag and her telling you bluntly that there is no point or big revelation, followed by some Goddess of Exposition foretelling before you either let her die with a shred of dignity or gleefully pitch her into a crater.

If I’m going to spend 50+ hours getting ripped off, I’ll do it at a casino. At least I can get a couple cheap martinis while I’m at it. Sadly, the rest of the GFFA seems to be following the tone of K2 with the Vong laying waste to everything in site, Kreia’s reincarnation as Vergere, Darth bleeping Caedus…and now, the Legacy series where Cade Skywalker is a drug-addled nihilist that makes Cantina!Han look like a Big Damn Hero, all the while pretending to pass off sheer cynical garbage as “deep.”

Endorenna 08-20-2009 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allronix (Post 2664545)
2. Unlikable characters

With K1, the characters are the central attraction. You got attached to them, cared about them. I caught myself avoiding a potentially DS action saying “Not in front of the kid, she’s had enough bad examples.” Or “I don’t want to give Carth any more reason to distrust me.” I loved listening to their stories. I wanted to give Juhani a hug. I wanted to listen to Jolee’s flippant riddles and Canderous’s warrior-bard retelling of his battles. I choked up when I wasn’t able to prevent Bastila from committing suicide by saber brawl.

By contrast, I really didn’t want to spend any time with the K2 cast. I found them disquieting, unpleasant, in dire need of a padded room, or all of the above. Juhani had her issues, but she was nowhere near as much a mess as Visas. I couldn’t pry Bao-Dur out of his shell. Handmaiden? You fight in the buff, and have a daddy fetish. Lovely, female gamers obviously weren’t a priority to Obsidian. Mical was a GREAT character concept, and he cleans up in fanfic. In game? You talk to him twice, Jedi him up, and that’s the end of it. Ditto with Mira. Atton needed to be sharing a cell with Gary Ridgeway. He totally came off as a sociopath. And then there’s Kreia. Force Bond or not, I was ready to shove her out an airlock multiple times. Everything out of her mouth was some snide remark about the others, some lesson on manipulation, or some lecture on how you didn’t meet her standards without so much as an option to tell her to sit on her lightsaber. Even better was how they sniped and backstabbed one another for the Exile’s favor like courtiers around a king.

I didn’t like them. I didn’t want to be around them. I found myself thinking more about how to manipulate the influence system over them than wanting to help them. If K1 was Baulder’s Gate with lightsabers, this was Blake’s 7 or Watchmen with lightsabers.


3. The feeling of futility

Not only was the company unpleasant, the trip was pointless. Save the Jedi Masters or kill them? Doesn’t matter. They still end up dead. Side with Czerka or the Ithorians? Doesn’t matter. Try changing things on Nar Shadaa? The level of futility borders on black comedy. Korriban? Nothing you choose really matters, either. It was also nice of them to go out of their way to take a gigantic whiz all over anything done in the first game. The Jedi? Dead, and their name in ruins. Korriban? A wasteland. The Republic? Still a mess. Just to add insult to injury, add things like Dustil being left to die/go insane in a Korriban tomb, Revan’s skull being used as Nihilus’s hood ornament, and the heroes that do return being a shadow of their K1 selves (with the exception of T3, who grew a personality).

Oh, and the complete this exercise in wasted time, you have one long, incoherent fight scene that tries and fails to wrap up loose ends, culminating in reaching the aforementioned old hag and her telling you bluntly that there is no point or big revelation, followed by some Goddess of Exposition foretelling before you either let her die with a shred of dignity or gleefully pitch her into a crater.

:lol: These were the very reasons I like TSL...except in K1, I really loathed all the characters but Trask, Jolee, and Mission. I liked it when I got to the end of TSL and there was no 'big secret to making everything right'. I liked that in the end, there was nothing I could do to save the Masters. The only part I didn't like was Kreia not being terribly hard to kill...oh, yea, and Disciple. I coulda done without the Disciple. -_- He was boring.

Laar_Dha 08-20-2009 11:35 PM

@Allronix

Wow! That was amazing! :thmbup1:That is probably one of the best, pithy summations of the games I have ever read. Now, I didn't dislike K2 nearly as much as you apparently did, but you make some very good points. I actually found Atton interesting in a dark, sinister sort of way, and Bao-Dur was alright if you could trigger the more in-depth dialogs, but the rest of the characters were pretty darn uninteresting. I found the Disciple and the Handmaiden particularly irritating and avoided them as much as possible.
I found it really frustrating that almost all situations ended in mass slaughter; it would have been nice every once in a while to convince at least a few people to change their ways so you could leave them alive. Granted K1 also had periods of wading through masses of enemies, but you could sometimes make it through a quest with a reasonable body count (i.e. You don't have to massacre all the sand people).
Although I can't argue with anything you said, I have to admit I still enjoyed a lot of the game and have willingly played it through a half-dozen times. I do like the improvements to the game interface that Obsidian added; K1's was good, Obsidian's was better. I just felt I had to give a bravo to a really well-written critique.;)

Allronix 08-21-2009 01:36 AM

If I do play K2, the only satisfying path I find is a Dark Side Male. That way, you totally revel in the bleak atmosphere, and the nihilistic tone of the whole thing works great. The crew's a bunch of wankers and gits? Hey, they get just the captain they deserve. Manipulate them and play them off one another in competition for your favor? Sure thing. Nothing you do matters? Well, then, raise hell, leave disaster in your wake, and embrace the void when it comes for you.

Darth InSidious 08-21-2009 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allronix (Post 2664545)
Actually, the reasons it ticked me off?

1. Bugs.

To quote a gamer’s classic flick, “The system’s got more bugs than a bait store.” The damn game crashed every two hours (even without mods, and even on my brother in law’s X-box!), Revan’s gender changed three times in one conversation, conversation trees broke frequently, and quests were left unsolvable.

Given just how buggy K1 was at release, that's hardly fair comment. It took Bioware a three patches to make the game (mostly) run anywhere close to smoothly. At one point, I remember the game crashing at almost every area transition.


Quote:

2. Unlikable characters

With K1, the characters are the central attraction. You got attached to them, cared about them. I caught myself avoiding a potentially DS action saying “Not in front of the kid, she’s had enough bad examples.” Or “I don’t want to give Carth any more reason to distrust me.” I loved listening to their stories. I wanted to give Juhani a hug. I wanted to listen to Jolee’s flippant riddles and Canderous’s warrior-bard retelling of his battles. I choked up when I wasn’t able to prevent Bastila from committing suicide by saber brawl.
I can only put that down to bad taste, given how two-dimensional and clichéd they were. Oh, no, they had personalities that weren't cheap archetypes. How dreadful.

Quote:

By contrast, I really didn’t want to spend any time with the K2 cast. I found them disquieting, unpleasant, in dire need of a padded room, or all of the above.
Heaven forfend that entertainment should challenge us.
Quote:

Juhani had her issues,
Hahahaha, no she didn't. She was evil and then became Ms Goody-Goody in two seconds flat becauses you flattered her, and then spent the rest of the game in self-pity. That isn't "issues". That's navel-gazing, teenage bull****.

Quote:

but she was nowhere near as much a mess as Visas.
Well, no. Having dealt with people with screwed-up pasts, Visas is actually remotely credible as someone with "issues". Unlike Ms. Emobull**** "Waa, daddy made me tidy my room, I'mma go slit my wrists" in K1.

Quote:

I couldn’t pry Bao-Dur out of his shell.
The Bao-Dur who talks at noteable length about his crippling guilt and being overshadowed by the past? Or the Bao-Dur who is still calling you "General" ten years after the end of the war?

Quote:

Handmaiden? You fight in the buff, and have a daddy fetish. Lovely, female gamers obviously weren’t a priority to Obsidian.
Which is why she's available to female characters, of course. :rolleyes: Well done avoiding her character to have a dig at Obsidian though. After all, we wouldn't want the actual nature of the game to get in the way of your rant, would we? :thmbup1:

But just in case we do need to spell this one out, Handmaiden doesn't "have a daddy fetish"; she's obsessed with the thought of being a bastard, and, funnily enough why her father did what he did. But we've already established you want cheap, two-dimensional archetypes rather than depth. You must have loved Mass Effect.

Quote:

Mical was a GREAT character concept, and he cleans up in fanfic. In game? You talk to him twice, Jedi him up, and that’s the end of it. Ditto with Mira.
Unlike in KotOR, where once you do the banal little sidequest they have nothing more to say to you but the same two lines.

Quote:

Atton needed to be sharing a cell with Gary Ridgeway. He totally came off as a sociopath.
So he's worse than Canderous, a mass-murderer without a shred of remorse or thought for those that he killed for some twisted idea of honour? Riiiiight.

Quote:

And then there’s Kreia. Force Bond or not, I was ready to shove her out an airlock multiple times. Everything out of her mouth was some snide remark about the others, some lesson on manipulation, or some lecture on how you didn’t meet her standards without so much as an option to tell her to sit on her lightsaber. Even better was how they sniped and backstabbed one another for the Exile’s favor like courtiers around a king.
:rolleyes:

Did you actually miss the point, and the dialogue options telling her to shut up with it, or are you simply incapable of an argument that sticks with the facts?

She's supposed to be your teacher and.. you object that she chimes in with opinions. She also only questions you if you start leaning to one side like... a two-dimensional archetype... and doesn't say you "didn't meet her standards" at any point in the game.

Quote:

I didn’t like them. I didn’t want to be around them. I found myself thinking more about how to manipulate the influence system over them than wanting to help them. If K1 was Baulder’s Gate with lightsabers, this was Blake’s 7 or Watchmen with lightsabers.
Well done on the backwards compliment.


Quote:

3. The feeling of futility

Not only was the company unpleasant, the trip was pointless. Save the Jedi Masters or kill them? Doesn’t matter. They still end up dead. Side with Czerka or the Ithorians? Doesn’t matter. Try changing things on Nar Shadaa? The level of futility borders on black comedy. Korriban? Nothing you choose really matters, either.
Save or kill the giant fish? Irrelevant. Kill Uthar or Yuthura? Irrelevant. Side with Chuundar or the dad? Irrelevant. Save or kill the sand people? Irrelevant. First you blame them for departing from the formula, then for sticking to it too much. :rolleyes:

Quote:

It was also nice of them to go out of their way to take a gigantic whiz all over anything done in the first game.
Yes, how dare they show consequences to things which happen. How appalling of Obsidian.

Quote:

The Jedi? Dead, and their name in ruins. Korriban? A wasteland. The Republic? Still a mess. Just to add insult to injury, add things like Dustil being left to die/go insane in a Korriban tomb,
Oh, no, some two-dimensional character with the personality of a cardboard cut-out went and died in a tomb! Since it's never explicitly stated that it's him, though, congrats on critiquing an element that was cut because it didn't belong in the final draft rather than for time, though.

Quote:

Revan’s skull being used as Nihilus’s hood ornament,
Is never mentioned in the game, so pulling a developer's comment from an interview on the background of an item which doesn't even fit in the game's story as presented in the game as though it belongs to the story is neither accurate nor fair.

I've left out the rest of your post, since it's nothing more than a rant.


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