Why I won't be playing TOR.
 

So i've been debating to myself whether to write this thread for a while and a recent post I read in a topic influenced me to express my opinions on TOR, so here goes:

i can assure you this was not my initial reaction.

After seeing the decieved trailer. I was thinking "OMG, they're going to continue Kotor through this game! This could be truely epic, this could actually be the first mmo that I can actually get into!"

You see I had just finished the first Mass Effect and loved it. It was an immersive experience that I really enjoyed but most importantly (to me) it was the first rpg I had played where I liked the combat system. You see i've always wanted a game with the character customisation of the kotor games without the normal rpg combat system.

So I was thinking something close to the mass effect combat system mixed with the SW:Kotor setting in an mmo might just sell me.

I presumed seeing as it was a mmo and a continuation of kotor that they wouldn't want anything too taxing on pc's in terms of graphics so I assumed they go with the look and style of the previous 2 games. (which I also happen to like)

Then it happened..

I saw a gameplay video. Not only did they not incorporate a new combat system for the mmo genre, they went a completely different direction for the visuals of the game.

The characters in this game look a lot like WoW characters to me. So anychance of me getting immersed into the game (and my potential character or characters) was gone. I always liked how the previous games looked and it genuinely surprised me that they mirrored WoW with the aesthetics here.

As far as Revan and Exile goes I knew this was going to be based around 300 years after TSL so I assumed they be dead and not too relevant to the player's experience in this game.
There are a few threads on canon/storylines within TOR and how they relate to the previous installments so I won't touch on it too much here.

I will say this though when I first heard about this I raced to my computer to find out more about this game but i've already found out enough about this game to know it won't be my cup of tea.

As a closing point, I think this game truely had the potential to break through a lot of the things that prevent certain gamers from playing mmo's. Unfortunatly this game will not be that genre-altering title I was hoping for. :(

If any of ye have different reasons for wanting to (or not wanting to) play the game i'd be intrested to hear it?

Meh...Mass Effect combat was really good (especially in the second game), but I can't see it working well in an MMO with open worlds and possibly PvP servers.

Well, the thing about KotOR and TSL's graphics are...well...if they wanted to go with that look/style now, they'd have to make the game very realistic like, say, Aion to avoid getting panned for their graphics, and a lot of people's computers can't support said graphics. Going with the exact same graphics as the two games would be terrible, 'cuz frankly, they look kinda grainy and a bit ugly now.

To each his own. You either like the graphics or don't; nothing wrong with not caring for them.

Unfortunately, a large percentage of those "certain gamers" wouldn't be satisfied with TOR any more than other MMOs despite the non-conventional aspects of it, and the current MMO players would mostly stick to their old, familiar playstyles, leaving Bioware with another dead Star Wars MMO.

The thing about genre-altering titles is...for every one that actually alters a genre, there are a hundred that do nothing but get dropped in the bargain bin. This is Bioware's first MMO. They can't afford to risk an utter failure. :/

In conclusion, I completely understand what you're saying (and I'm most definitely not criticising you for not planning to play TOR :lol:). Different strokes for different folks and all that. However, I think that Bioware's made the smartest business decision they could make for TOR's finer aspects.

First off, where'd you get these quotes BTW?

Don't worry, I was once a n00b on these forums such a short time ago, myself. I'll go easy on ya, but firm. Speaking as one who was more a naysayer, I'm now neutral. I won't be playing for two reasons:
1) monthly fee
2) I'd need a new machine which I cannot afford right now.

It's all over money. Though I am stil lchafing a little about minor things but...meh...

I'm split over buying a PS3 for the new Twisted Metal coming out soon and playing online, or if I want to continue with intensifying my electronics hobby. So TOR will have to wait on the backburner.

In any event, all my gripes aside I would consider going for the game if it were not an MMO--even if it is friendly to single players. First thing on my mind was "LA is cashing out".

I have to agree with you, OP, that the gameplay mechanics of such just don't "get" me. While it'd be "my first MMO", in actuality I have played friends' accounts on other games. The way they're just generally set up just...bothers me, and no I can't rationally describe it. Maybe it's just creepy?

In general: I wanted a KOTOR3 but that ain't happening. Don't care too much for how they are largely ignoring K2, but whatever. On minor details of K1 cat's out of the bag...

I guess I just don't see the whole thing about Revan...Either his will was his own and he never truly fell, or he was a tool. The latter sucks but that's apparently the only way revan could not have been corrupted by the dark side... :dozey: Personally I like the idea his will was always his own and that he wasn't a goody-good guy.

Bah, screw it, the SW EU is like a buffet, take what you want and leave the rest...and puke on the canon since the newest stuff retcons the older stuff even if it's established canon already.

In general I'd like to see where it goes from here. Interesting for story if nothing else. Alas we know it'll end up being a nigh-endless war from here onward for another few thousand years until the events in the Darth Bane novels. Actually I think that's just it: I know how it all ultimately ends up so it has been ENTIRELY spoiled for me.

The reason I'd like to play: after crushing the republic I'd turn on the emperor and snap his 1300 year old ass over my knee like a dry twig, then make an example out of Darth Malgus just for fun.

That and to don some of the other non jedi characters because they are so often overlooked.

I see what you're getting at but even a simplified version of the ME1 combat system would be a HUGE improvement on what they're going for imo.

True it's aged and wouldn't blow people away but I think it looks better than what they're going with.
More importantly (to me), I can play either Knights games and get immersed with my character but with the cartoonish look they're going for with TOR there's no way I could get into my character no matter how good the dialog is.

That's quite possible, I agree.

I agree that they're probably playing it safe and don't want to take too big a risk.
Let me give you another pov though, thus far no other mmo has really competed with WoW because they're very similar to WoW. It could turn out that after the release hype dies down and it's had a year or so to impress that mmo players could give up on it and return to the mmo's they were playing beforehand.

This forum. In order to not annoy the origianl poster I though i'd leave his name out just incase.

I have tried trials of Galaxies, Eve & WoW. With all these games I cannot stand the combat system. Galaxies combat was slightly more tolerable but all in all I find that mmo combat is really off-putting.

Ah I see. He may still find out, but fear not, we're a friendly bunch even if we don't always all agree on politics in Kavar's Corner. You'll probably only be in for some...dissection and minor scrutiny.

I guess I'd describe some of it as clunky, but that won't hold with a polished game mechanic...I dunno, chained/cuffed while walking a tightrope maybe?

That and it just seems so user unfriendly sometimes. The whole setup just seems cantankerous for lack of a better word.

'Course considering the now freeware "Dungeon Masters" RPGs and how their controls were somewhere between unweildy and just plain frustrating I suppose I should be more thankful...

>.>
<.<

If you don't need to take 3 months studying the controls and memorizing them just to learn how to play... That's a big deal for many people. Fairly easy control while still maintaining sophistication.

Even so...I thought this was supposed to be an 'innovative leap', not more of the same just somewhat modified.

a) We have an entire forum section for this game.
b) What do you want to achieve with this? That they'll cancel it? That we won't play it? It's simply a statement.
c) Why compare this with Mass Effect? We're talking shooter/mmo here. An MMO that needs an engine that can perform on old and new computers. Hundreds or thousand of people are in an digital environment at once, you can't use the Crysis engine for that purpose, which is created for single player experience.

And if you don't like it, (I didn't like it either, still have my doubts) don't buy it. World War 3 won't start over it. Probably.

The WoW style combat system simply put is unintuitive and yes, user unfriendly.

Exactly, they added little to the same old mmo combat system. No innovative leap in sight i'm afraid.

I'll check that out then.

Basically, I just wanted to stat what had been bugging me about this new mmo. It's been genuinely bugging me when i'd watch a development video and the bioware staff are so "This couldn't be better!!OMG!!".
Yeah.. basically getting that off my chest, not looking to achieve anything.

When did I mention the Crysis engine? More on point though I mention Mass Effect because it's the best combat i've ever played in an rpg and it was made by Bioware.
I basically think even a slightly broken down/simplified version of the ME1 combat system would be an "innovative leap" in mmo combat.


Maybe I should this theory foward at Kavars corner? :)

Seriously though, thanks for the replys everyone.

I mentioned Crysis because it's specifically developed for single-player experience and most notorious for it's heavy hardware requirements. My bad. :)

An MMO is developed to last quite some years, on any type of PC. That way, it's developer can guarantee people like GTA and myself (with 'older' PC's) can still play it.

They then probably chose the cartoony style because it'll look good in low and high resolutions. People who have played WoW know what I mean. The graphics in the last expansion are FAR better then the original graphics, but because the overall design is cartoony, it all looks 'good.'

The combat in WoW is...different yes. Some classes require micro management of skills and in PvP, people buy special mouses with more buttons so they can map specials skills to those buttons. It's insane that such a thing is needed to get an edge. And I agree with you on this point.

However, Guild Wars proved it can be done different as well. I loved that game for it's simple, yet extremely tactical use of skills.

Overall, I hope I didn't make the impression to be annoyed by your thread, it's simply a thing we've been debating here since the start so I've got a clear opinion on it. :)

I actually thought you were deliberatly trying to mention the most hardware-heavy example of an fps when you mentioned Crysis. :lol:

I see the logic in what you're saying. However wouldn't it be just as easy for these pc's to run the EXACT SAME graphics from the previous kotor games?
I'd prefer the old style because it's less childish.


Yes, This and the fact that you don't really "control" your characters movements really annoy me when I try mmo combat.

I'll admit I haven't tried this, I might give it a look.

No hostilities here man.:)

I admit, i feel quite strongly about what (in my mind) could have made this the best game out there but feel a bit disappointed by some of Biowares decisions.

I do like hearing other peoples opinions on this too though. :thmbup1:

The thing I'm worried about with TOR is this:

How long is it going to be before the roleplay goes down the toilet, from "Master, I wish to learn more about the Force. How does breaking one chain of events affect all others?"

to

"B3iNG 4 J3d1 1s s0 k3WL"

What's your theory on how long it will take for most of the players to get from point A to point Z? That's what pretty much ruined EverQuest for me.

i have to say,with bioware doing mass effect, a real time tps ,and the deceived trailer,i thought they could have TOR as a huuuuge sw:battlefront with typical mmo stuff in between, and that would hook me instantly... i don't know if that is close to what the op was going on about!!

but that was just wishfull thinking on my part...

You want my theory on this or someone else's??

Well, I reckon player dialog with NPC's will remain consistent for a good long while if I was to geuss.

That's exactly what I was on about!!:thmbup1:

The battles being a little more objective based than just deathmatches all the time of course. :lol:

Err...that's what online Battlefront servers are for. MMO features simply don't work in that setting, 'cuz no one could cross a field for fear that some sniper would gun them down when all they wanted to do was talk to the NPC on the other side of said field. The only way to avoid that situation would be to have a function that disables PvP. This solution would anger people wanting a SW:BF type of game, 'cuz they wouldn't be able to shoot everything in the field.

PS: Mass Effect was only like Battlefront in that you shot things. ME was not an open battlefield; it was a linear shooting spree (as far as combat goes).

You're right.

I will say this though.
Let's say (for arguments sake) that the game had a ME style combat system in a big open world where there was no PvP rules just whoever shot at you could harm you. (PC or NPC)

Now, in more populated areas like citys/towns/villages you would have a strong presence of NPC police/authority characters so that any trigger-happy players would be hunted down by local authoritys.
Think of it like being in the Imperial city in Oblivion, if you attack someone in the middle of the street you're immediately going to have a group of Imperial gaurds try to arrest you and detain you.

Wouldn't this make for a more convincing setting?:raise:

Well i've daydreamed they could go in that direction,with non-combat areas and real time combat, when you go on a mission or combat area.

I only used Battlefront as an example because it's multiplayer and Starwars, lightsabers, space combat and stuff, which mass effect doesn't have... but a Mass effect like misson structure(objective based instead of all deathmatch all the time :thmbup1: op) would probably work better.
and i've never said Battlefront and Mass effect are similar.

More importantly, that was just wishfull thinking on my part, cause i'm not an mmo guy, so i've dreamed about this game that i could go for... and in the end i've come up with something that it's not an mmo at all as you put it.

I feel your pain man.

I've really wanted somebody to make an mmo with shooter gameplay in the combat. When i initially saw the Decieved trailer (having just finished Mass effect) I thought what I had wanted for years now was finally happening.

I'd say as soon as people meet other players TBH, the single player stuff will be cool, but then it will just become Badge Hunter fodder, with the conversations and dialog skipped while they discuss how much the Republic sucks at PVP on Ventrilo

Q.F.T.

My only doubt about SWTOR as well, that and balance issues with too many players playing Jedi because it's a Jedi.

As someone who rolls (instantrimshot.com*) in PnP crowds, I've learned that the second group has been around just as long as the first, perhaps even longer (RPG's are descended from wargaming, ya know?). Sorry to tell you, but if you want to RP your perfect Jedi fantasy, you'll have to look outside the video game industry.

*Alternatively, go to http://www.epiconeliner.com/

The primary reason I won't be playing this game is the monthly fee (the same reason I don't play other MMOs). I simply find it ludicrous to be required to pay 10-15 euros a month to be able to play a game I already paid 40-60 euros for. Unfortunately I'm neither insane nor am I insanely rich to be able to waste that kind of money on a game.

The second reason comes from my relatively short try-out of WoW (free trial) - boring quest types. It's either:
1) kill x enemies of Type A, y enemies of Type B and z enemies of Type C and report back
2) gather x items of Type A, y items of Type B and z items of Type C and report back, which can be divided into two subtypes:
- gather herbs
- gather items that are generated as loot for killing certain enemies, which means it's
a combination of 1) and 2)
3) take item A to character B who lives at location C
4) go talk to character A

The first two types are the more common ones, while 3) and 4) are rare breaks from infinite slashing. At least this has been my experience. Combine all that with the boring combat system and you can understand why I hate this aspect of MMOs.

The third reason is story. Again, from my limited experience of WoW, I didn't really notice that the game had a main plot, just a bunch of smaller, rather unimportant quest-lines. It did have premises for several good and seemingly interesting plots, but I have no idea how, or even if they unfolded to the player.

Fourth reason is a bunch of illogical design choices. It's supposed to be the (really) Old Republic, but with every video I see it seems a lot like the Republic we saw in the movies. It's simply inconceivable that technology would stand still for 3500 years, which enables TOR and the movies to have technology that has an almost identical appearance. This is something that bothered me in Obsidian's TSL too - I saw Star Destroyers identical to those from the movies along with some Tydirium shuttle-like crafts, not to mention the movie-like Jedi robes (even though that doesn't have as much to do with technology as it does with fashion, or something like that). It appears the designers from Bioware also decided to do away with visual originality of TOR and just replicate stuff from the movies. I'm not all too keen on seeing that kind of a game world, considering the era in which the game takes place.

OK, the wall o' text is high enough, I'll stop now. :D

On a side note, it's really been a while since I posted in this section of the forums.

No TOR for me... I heard it was the WOW type of combat system.

FPS combat or nothing! :carms:

First the quotes can be attributed to me. Second, I did qualify that with "most" and C. I already answered this in the other thread.

Hall, I used to play quite a few PnP RPGs. There was a reason I gave XP bonuses to people who RP'd properly. Once I had a pair of groups running at the same time. 30 players 15 in each. Now outside of when their character was actively engaged, as we went around the table, the conversations were no different than the OMG 1'm s0 1337 crowd in MMO's.

I have also noticed a difference in that in an MMO the more people you have, the less likely you see that attitude. Where as the PnP side is just the opposite.

igyman: 1) paying for TOR is like buying 8+ games at once. So at 240 per year it's actually a bargain.

2) Well you'll be happy to learn that TOR is supposedly going away from the "kill 10 rats" quests. There shouldn't be any quests that don't feel heroic.

3) According to BioWare they have made MANY statements that this is a STORY DRIVEN MMO. So this one is not a reason not to play TOR(as of yet. who knows if it will pan out).

4) Jedi fashion would not be expected to change much. I mean they're like monks. As far as I've seen, monks still have the same clothing style as a long time ago. But as for technology.. well I kinda agree with ya. But things like the Jawa Sand Crawler, I wouldn't expect to change much. But I did see a speederbike that looks pretty close to the ROTJ speederbike, and THAT I could see being changed. Then again, maybe the technology has plateaued. Coordinating design changes between millions of suppliers on millions of worlds takes a lot of effort. If there's one thing I have noticed, it's that the bigger a supply chain gets, the harder it is to get a design changed.

Exactly, the game's community won't "go down" to the 1337sp34|< as Tsy said, because it's always been there.

And, as a fairly novice DM, I have to ask how did you keep the game going with 15 people? I have to whip out the kindergarten hand signs with 5.

1) paying for TOR is like buying 8+ games at once. So at 240 per year it's actually a bargain.

i disagree with this one, you may be on to something in terms of playing time, but there's no new game excitement, it's always more of the same and not specially exciting

2) Well you'll be happy to learn that TOR is supposedly going away from the "kill 10 rats" quests. There shouldn't be any quests that don't feel heroic.

3) According to BioWare they have made MANY statements that this is a STORY DRIVEN MMO. So this one is not a reason not to play TOR(as of yet. who knows if it will pan out).

still have to wait and see how that will work out,character development plus major story points unfolding in the background????? is it possible???

4) Jedi fashion would not be expected to change much. I mean they're like monks. As far as I've seen, monks still have the same clothing style as a long time ago. But as for technology.. well I kinda agree with ya. But things like the Jawa Sand Crawler, I wouldn't expect to change much. But I did see a speederbike that looks pretty close to the ROTJ speederbike, and THAT I could see being changed. Then again, maybe the technology has plateaued. Coordinating design changes between millions of suppliers on millions of worlds takes a lot of effort. If there's one thing I have noticed, it's that the bigger a supply chain gets, the harder it is to get a design changed.

agreed, Kotor was essentially in equal level of tecnology with the movies and although i've seen that as very wrong never stopped me from enjoying it

No TOR for me... I heard it was the WOW type of combat system.

FPS combat or nothing!

i'm on the same boat here :indif:

Well those hoping some of the good combat elements of mass effect would be brought over into this mmo (me included) can now officially realise they were asking too much.

I give you the new group combat video:

http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/...er-demo?page=1

This recent addition to the site helped confirm my position that this game will have WoW's combat system.

Bioware saying it outright ages ago might have been a bit of a giveaway, too.

I was under the impression that they were saying combat was going to be better in their game compared to other mmos.

their idea of better is a few "cool" animations...

Not exactly the revolution I was hoping for then. :indif:

If you are willing to give that money, if you are sure one game will keep you interested for that long and if you are willing to postpone or completely forgo buying any other games during that year.

Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see. Hopefully you'll turn out to be right about this one.

Heh, WoW was also supposed to be a story-driven MMO, but the question is how interesting will that story be. It doesn't have to be grand, or epic, but it does have to be interesting.

If you take a look at KoTOR 1, the Jedi clothing was completely different from what we saw in the movies, but in KoTOR 2 which happened only a few years later, the Jedi are wearing robes that are visually identical to those from the movies. From what I've seen in various TOR clips, Bioware decided not to be original in this regard as they were in KoTOR 1.

Maybe for the consulars, but when it come to the jedi knights, it's just a reskin of the jedi generals in the clone wars...
And also, in TSL, the jedi master robes, etc had a different model, and looked different that the robes in the movies.

And that for me is a big problem, because in TOR, there are not only the jedi, the republic troopers, just look as a new clone variant (it could have perfectly fit into battlefront 2), the sith troopers, they look as a mix of the clone troopers, and Darth Vader.

The Bounty Hunters with the Helmet, looks as a merge of a movie style mandalorian, with the kotor War droids.

etc etc...

Meh if I get bored, I stop paying the monthly fee. so technically if I payed 60 for the game, and played for 2 months, I got 8 games for $75. Even more of a bargain.


Oh I don't pretend that I know for a fact. It's entirely possible that Bioware is just relabeling the "kill 10 rats" "Kill 10 Acklays"

Mah. Bioware is known for their stories. Blizzard stories... I think most of those were in cut scenes. We'll have to see when it comes out. There may be more story than ever before in an MMO. There could be lasting effects. For instance, we have no idea what other repercussions there might be for killing the Captain.

Well looking at the few shots of clothing, we have some Jedi fashion changes. And honestly... the armor on Jedi is different anyway.

Why I won't be playing TOR
 

Because it's a goddamned MMO.

The end.