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thelazygent 11-20-2010 02:12 AM

The cave of evil
 
so what do all those Starkillers in the cave represent? his past clones that failed? Interesting why they were asking for help

GalenMarek 11-20-2010 07:12 AM

maybe it showed the vision what he fear the most

Sordid Dreams 11-20-2010 11:39 AM

I don't think they represented anything. TFU2's story is too shallow for that. I think the writers' reasoning went the other way around: We need to shoehorn an encounter with Yoda into the story, therefore Starkiller needs to visit Dagobah, therefore we need to come up with something for him to experience in the cave. And since the story involves cloning, the most obvious thing to put there was a bunch of clones.

TKA-001 11-20-2010 02:15 PM

They represent all the other clones. They're asking for help because it sucks to be them.

Sordid Dreams 11-20-2010 03:25 PM

Aaaaand Starkiller helps them by slaughtering them by the dozens.

TKA-001 11-20-2010 04:55 PM

Whiiiiiiiiiiich has nothing to do with the thread.

MajinMikeyX 11-20-2010 05:24 PM

I agree with GalenMarek and TKA-001. Why Sordid do you try your hardest to be such a buzzkill on some of these threads when it's something pertaining to TFU2's story and you always have to be such a thread killer and everyone ends up arguing?

Sordid Dreams 11-20-2010 06:08 PM

Hey, it ain't my fault that the story sucks hairy monkey balls. And it ain't my fault either if 'everyone' ends up arguing. How can I be blamed for what others do? I'm just expressing my opinion to other people who know and care about the game, isn't that what the forums are for?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2756657)
Whiiiiiiiiiiich has nothing to do with the thread.

Actually it does. Accepting the premise that visions in the cave are to effect a profound change in the individual experiencing them, as Yoda hints, your explanation makes no sense. Starkiller clearly doesn't give a toss about the clones. Not even within the cave itself, after his initial surprised reaction he proceeds to casually swat them out of his way with the back of his hand without so much as giving them a second look.

TKA-001 11-20-2010 07:04 PM

Quote:

Hey, it ain't my fault that the story sucks hairy monkey balls.
My only problem is that you feel the need to tell us three times in the same thread. Because of that, I think that we should consider it your responsibility, even if that is technically untrue.

Sordid Dreams 11-20-2010 07:12 PM

Your point being? Look, if you're looking for a flamewar, look somewhere else.

TKA-001 11-20-2010 07:34 PM

http://www.edinformatics.com/inventi...ors/Mirror.jpg

Sordid Dreams 11-20-2010 08:13 PM

Will you stop picking on me? This is a thread for discussing the story. Would you kindly do that, like I'm doing, instead of trying to make this personal?

starkiller1157 11-21-2010 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalenMarek (Post 2756610)
maybe it showed the vision what he fear the most

I don't think he fears the fact of being a clone, because he believes himself to be. And from the heated discussion between him and Kota in the rogue shadow, he seemed pretty sure of the fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams (Post 2756633)
I don't think they represented anything. TFU2's story is too shallow for that. I think the writers' reasoning went the other way around: We need to shoehorn an encounter with Yoda into the story, therefore Starkiller needs to visit Dagobah, therefore we need to come up with something for him to experience in the cave. And since the story involves cloning, the most obvious thing to put there was a bunch of clones.

I agree with Sordid Dreams. The storyline lacks realism and Dagobah had really nothing to do with Starkiller and was pointless since we learned nothing about who he really is!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2756646)
They represent all the other clones. They're asking for help because it sucks to be them.

Ha, ha, that made me laugh :P

Darca Lar 11-26-2010 11:39 AM

You know what could help? Maybe reading the book, it really helped me understand the story in the 1st TFU.

Sordid Dreams 11-26-2010 05:35 PM

Maybe I'd do that if they bundled the book to the game at no extra cost. But they're selling the game on its own, it ought to be able to stand on its own.

Darca Lar 11-26-2010 07:42 PM

If that's true then books and their movie counterparts should be equally good without one being better than the other, or also be a bundle package

Mandalorian Mercenary 11-26-2010 11:48 PM

So according to Sordid Dreams, this thread is for discussing a "shallow" story? ^^

MajinMikeyX 11-26-2010 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandalorian Mercenary (Post 2757233)
So according to Sordid Dreams, this thread is for discussing a "shallow" story? ^^

Yeah. Whatever he says he sees as absolute and he can't be wrong. He comes and just talks about how bad the story is in his mind and basically starts an argument about it with one side giving points supporting the story and his side against it. I mean, I guess that's what these forums are for, from a certain point of view as Obi-Wan would say, but I just don't see the fun in debating about the same thing over several different threads.

Sordid Dreams 11-27-2010 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darca Lar (Post 2757218)
If that's true then books and their movie counterparts should be equally good without one being better than the other

Um... yeah? I though that goes without saying. Obviously a book is going to have a more fleshed out story than a videogame, but even the videogame version should should be a complete story that can stand and make sense on its own. It shouldn't have important bits missing, which TFU2 does have (apparently).

Darca Lar 11-28-2010 09:36 PM

I will agree that the story did have some plot holes in it which is bound to happen when a deadline is involved, but the story did make sense.

Sordid Dreams 11-28-2010 10:41 PM

Really? Okay then, what was it about? And I don't mean a recap of events, I'm talking about the main theme. Like, Buffy the Vampire Slayer is about growing up, Terminator is about facing up to and accepting one's destiny and responsibility, etc. What was TFU2 about?

Darca Lar 11-29-2010 01:29 PM

It was about finding answers and discovering worth, hence the trip to dagobah, the "am I a clone" thing

Sordid Dreams 11-29-2010 02:03 PM

That's what the promo materials said, but was it really? Starkiller doesn't seem to question being a clone, he insists to Kota that he is a clone both before and after the vision. Not only are no answers ever found, Starkiller doesn't even ask the question. He doesn't ask Vader or anybody else, he doesn't try to look for evidence. In the end he doesn't even care. Which would've been significant character development if he had unsuccessfully tried to find out, but he hadn't. I'm really struggling with figuring out just what it was about. TFU1 was easy. A bad guy pretends to be a good guy and actually becomes one in the process, you are what you do, that sort of thing. TFU2... can't really say.

Prime 11-29-2010 04:30 PM

Keep it civil, kids. :)

Mandalorian Mercenary 11-29-2010 04:49 PM

Yes, my master. :p

Darca Lar 11-30-2010 03:44 PM

It wasn't confirmed that Starkiller was a clone, but the answer was that clone or not, he's alive, defeated Vader, rescued the girl and reassured hope for the rebellion. This one is more of a transition to the finale

Sordid Dreams 11-30-2010 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darca Lar (Post 2757716)
he's alive, defeated Vader, rescued the girl and reassured hope for the rebellion

Ah, see, but that's just a recap of events, the very thing I said I didn't want you to tell me. I've played the game, I know what happens in it. What I don't know is how it affects Starkiller. Because as far as I can tell, it doesn't. At the beginning he doesn't care if he's a clone and is obsessed with Juno, and at the end he doesn't care if he's a clone and is obsessed with Juno. There's no character development.

OGCFB 11-30-2010 05:27 PM

To be fair he is at the beginning saying to KOTA how hes a clone and Kota saying that it's impossible and him eventually coming to terms that he may not be a clone after all however what I did not like is the everlasting Juno obsession all the way through the game...

Sordid Dreams 11-30-2010 06:22 PM

But even after his vision on Dagobah, which was supposedly to help him 'find himself', he still says to Kota "you still don't believe that I'm a clone", which to me implies he still thinks he is. What gets me is that it doesn't seem to bother him at any point.

starkiller1157 12-04-2010 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darca Lar (Post 2757170)
You know what could help? Maybe reading the book, it really helped me understand the story in the 1st TFU.

I have read the book and it does better then the game, but it still has plot-holes like the game.

And I have TFU1 book and I didn't need it to understand the storyline of the game. TFU1 did very well for a game and an addition to the Star Wars Universe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams (Post 2757208)
Maybe I'd do that if they bundled the book to the game at no extra cost. But they're selling the game on its own, it ought to be able to stand on its own.

I agree here. The book cost me $30 dollars + is you add what the game cost $60, you're paying over a hundred. They should have just added the book with the purchase of the game, because its not worth the buy with its limited content/game play. 4 levels/worlds, give me a break!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darca Lar (Post 2757218)
If that's true then books and their movie counterparts should be equally good without one being better than the other

I disagree. A book is far better then a movie. It has much more detail, more content then a movie could ever hold. Lord of the Rings is proof of that, it also expresses the characters feelings more then a film could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MajinMikeyX (Post 2757235)
Yeah. Whatever he says he sees as absolute and he can't be wrong. He comes and just talks about how bad the story is in his mind and basically starts an argument about it with one side giving points supporting the story and his side against it. I mean, I guess that's what these forums are for, from a certain point of view as Obi-Wan would say, but I just don't see the fun in debating about the same thing over several different threads.

The whole point of forums are to discuss and debate opinions and differences. If you and other like the game thats fine. But there will always be people who dislike things other don't

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darca Lar (Post 2757475)
I will agree that the story did have some plot holes in it which is bound to happen when a deadline is involved, but the story did make sense.

They had the same deadline as TFU1 and it came out just fine, as like many other games or even films. I think its more the success of the first game and how much money it made then about deadlines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darca Lar (Post 2757558)
It was about finding answers and discovering worth, hence the trip to dagobah, the "am I a clone" thing

Yes, but we found out no answers! We have no idea if he is a clone or not. I was eager to hear something more amazing about the force!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darca Lar (Post 2757716)
It wasn't confirmed that Starkiller was a clone, but the answer was that clone or not, he's alive, defeated Vader, rescued the girl and reassured hope for the rebellion. This one is more of a transition to the finale

Starkiller only defeated Vader because Juno was taken. Starkiller had the chance to kill Vader in the beginning, but he chose not to because of his obsession with Juno. Starkiller in TFU2 is not the same as in TFU1, in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams (Post 2757732)
But even after his vision on Dagobah, which was supposedly to help him 'find himself', he still says to Kota "you still don't believe that I'm a clone", which to me implies he still thinks he is. What gets me is that it doesn't seem to bother him at any point.

Basicly, Starkiller doesn't seem to care about anything in TFU2, other then his obsession with Juno. Which, no offense, but if a former lover had come back for me like that, I'd be pretty upset that he risked the rebel alliance possible defeat and didn't at all care about their struggle against the empire!

After everything Starkiller, Juno & Kota went through in the first game, its meaningless to him. And if he really believes he is a clone and not the original, how does he think Juno should be his???

Sordid Dreams 12-04-2010 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starkiller1157 (Post 2758125)
I disagree. A book is far better then a movie. It has much more detail, more content then a movie could ever hold. Lord of the Rings is proof of that, it also expresses the characters feelings more then a film could.

Well that's just because LotR is completely unsuitable for a film adaptation. There are many films that are better than the literature they're based on/that's based on them. The recent Batman movies come to mind.

Quote:

After everything Starkiller, Juno & Kota went through in the first game, its meaningless to him. And if he really believes he is a clone and not the original, how does he think Juno should be his???
Yeah, that really bothered me too. What exactly is he going to say when the subject comes up? "Well, the guy you loved is dead, but I look just like him and I've had some of his memories of you injected into my head by Darth Vader, so how about we ditch this old fart and rent us a room so you can get a taste of my lightsaber, if you know what I mean?"

starkiller1157 12-04-2010 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams (Post 2758161)
What exactly is he going to say when the subject comes up? "Well, the guy you loved is dead, but I look just like him and I've had some of his memories of you injected into my head by Darth Vader...

According to the book, Juno got a tour of the cloning facility and seemed to be alright with it, which, I know we don't know a lot about her character, but still, I'd feel a bit weird about it. I'd definintly need some time to understand it, but the other problem is, Vader isn't telling if he really is a clone or not, so there's like this gray area for any character development

When I first heard about TFU2 and Starkiller being cloned, the idea I had was, Starkiller was so powerful(like it was said in TFU1 by the Emperor "He is now more powerful then ever" that his force kept his spirit/soul alive. And when Darth Vader was making clones, that spirit/soul entered one of the clone bodies.

I would have been more interesting if all the clones Vader made were failures, until one came alone and proved otherwise-the real starkiller. It would also make Vader a bit confused as to how this particular clone was a success.

Starkiller couldn't of escaped-similar to that in the cinematic released and goal is to find the rebel alliance and help defeat the Empire. In the process, finding both Kota, Juno and some new allies.

Sordid Dreams 12-06-2010 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starkiller1157 (Post 2758175)
According to the book, Juno got a tour of the cloning facility and seemed to be alright with it, which, I know we don't know a lot about her character, but still, I'd feel a bit weird about it. I'd definintly need some time to understand it, but the other problem is, Vader isn't telling if he really is a clone or not, so there's like this gray area for any character development

True, Vader isn't telling, but Starkiller doesn't seem to have any doubts. From his point of view, he's a clone and that's the end of it. And he's apparently perfectly okay with taking another guy's place.
It might actually be pretty cool if the real Starkiller then turned up and challenged him on that point. You'd end up with two supposedly light sided Force users fighting each other over a woman, ie. a completely selfish, passion-driven reason, revealing that in fact neither of them is on the light side.
...
Yeah, fat chance.

starkiller1157 12-28-2010 11:17 AM

A thought recently came to me and I realized, Starkilling entering the cave of evil on dagobah, is really not the best idea.

We already know he struggles with the dark side and in Episode 5, Yoda clearly explains that the dark side is strong on the planet and especially in the cave. It should of caused him to go darker or at least have some profound effect on him.

Not to mention there is no struggle with the dark or light side in TFU2. And if he is trying to be a jedi, his attachment to Juno will only cause him to fall or at least, not allow him to be a true jedi.

Sordid Dreams 12-28-2010 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starkiller1157 (Post 2761444)
We already know he struggles with the dark side

Do we? Somehow I don't recall a single moment of that in the first game. What he struggles with are his loyalties, but both his loyalty to Vader and his loyalty to Juno are based on emotion. Fear, anger, and lust for power in case of Vader and passionate love in case of Juno. Both of those are dark side motives.

Quote:

Yoda clearly explains that the dark side is strong on the planet and especially in the cave. It should of caused him to go darker or at least have some profound effect on him.
Actually I think it did. Before he went in he wasn't sure what to do. The cave reawakaned his love for Juno and his desire to protect her at all costs. Which is of course the exact same emotion that caused Anakin to turn into Vader.

Quote:

Not to mention there is no struggle with the dark or light side in TFU2. And if he is trying to be a jedi, his attachment to Juno will only cause him to fall or at least, not allow him to be a true jedi.
Which is why I've always maintained that Starkiller is and always has been a total darksider.

starkiller1157 12-29-2010 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams (Post 2761502)
Do we? Somehow I don't recall a single moment of that in the first game. What he struggles with are his loyalties, but both his loyalty to Vader and his loyalty to Juno are based on emotion. Fear, anger, and lust for power in case of Vader and passionate love in case of Juno. Both of those are dark side motives.

Well he did learn that his father was a die, so I think that in itself is a light/dark struggle. He was born from a Jedi and raised as a sith. General Kota is offering to help him become a Jedi.

They didn't really express the romance very well, until the end. And regardless, he still chose to die for the rebels instead of just go away with Juno.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams (Post 2761502)
Actually I think it did. Before he went in he wasn't sure what to do. The cave reawakaned his love for Juno and his desire to protect her at all costs.

He went in the cave obsessed with finding Juno and went out obsessed with finding Juno. Nothing really changed. And for Yoda to say he needed to follow what he saw, is very unlike Yoda. Yoda urged Anakin to forget about his attachments. Why would he here encourage it, if he hoped Starkiller to be a Jedi?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams (Post 2761502)
Which is why I've always maintained that Starkiller is and always has been a total darksider.

The only thing TFU2 expressions-from my point of view-is he's a teenager obsessing over his girlfriend :P it's not like he did anything "dark" related. At least Anakin murdered Jedi, Younglings & Separatist.

Darca Lar 12-30-2010 03:29 PM

The games story might have made more sense if there was more than what they gave. If this was adapted into a film, it'd probably run 70 minutes; about the same as a tv movie.

gallandro 01-04-2011 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams (Post 2761502)
Do we? Somehow I don't recall a single moment of that in the first game. What he struggles with are his loyalties, but both his loyalty to Vader and his loyalty to Juno are based on emotion. Fear, anger, and lust for power in case of Vader and passionate love in case of Juno. Both of those are dark side motives.


Actually I think it did. Before he went in he wasn't sure what to do. The cave reawakaned his love for Juno and his desire to protect her at all costs. Which is of course the exact same emotion that caused Anakin to turn into Vader.


Which is why I've always maintained that Starkiller is and always has been a total darksider.

I agree with you that Starkiller is following a path very similar to Anakin, but I disagree that he's a darksider. There's a distinct difference... The Sith (and Anakin) are focused on selfish needs and the acquisition of people, things, and power.. Starkiller isn't. He willingly sacrificed himself for the rebellion (including Juno).

When they were above the Death Star and kissed, Starkiller was convinced he would never see Juno again, and yet he still continued with his mission. Anakin would never have done that. He wouldn't have willingly given up Amidala for any greater cause. He would not have accepted that premise. He loved her, but he also wanted to possess her. In TFU1, that wasn't Starkiller at all. He loved Juno (which the Jedi forbid), but he didn't want her as a possession (which the Sith promote).

I think the whole point to Starkiller is that he isn't following either path, which makes him a danger to both sides. He follows no ideals, which is the foundation of the light and the dark side.

I think - if anything - he's more akin to Qui Gon Jinn (although I'll grant you, he is a little dark). He is incredibly powerful, but completely ignores the tenants of both the Sith and the Jedi if he thinks they aren't applicable to his mission.

In short, I think the point to Starkiller is that he's something completely new. Neither Sith nor Jedi.

And Kota - in true jedi form - just seems to want to manipulate Starkiller in the same way that Yoda and Obi Wan manipulated Luke.

starkiller1157 01-04-2011 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gallandro (Post 2762608)
but I disagree that he's a darksider. There's a distinct difference...

I agree with you there. Starkiller may have dark side moments, but he's not completely acting like a normal dark sider.



Quote:

Originally Posted by gallandro (Post 2762608)
When they were above the Death Star and kissed, Starkiller was convinced he would never see Juno again, and yet he still continued with his mission.

It's a little hazy, but I think with the revelation of his father being a Jedi and Kota urging him, it seemed to be going down the Jedi path. He did save Kota when he could of killed Vader.


Quote:

Originally Posted by gallandro (Post 2762608)
In short, I think the point to Starkiller is that he's something completely new. Neither Sith nor Jedi.

I agree with you there, but star wars is all about the Light VS the Dark. It seems lately the EU is going down a gray area of the force, which I don't completely agree with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gallandro (Post 2762608)
And Kota - in true jedi form - just seems to want to manipulate Starkiller in the same way that Yoda and Obi Wan manipulated Luke.

That's pretty obvious after watching the scene between Kota and Clone Starkiller when they board the Rogue Shadow. Kota already had a plan set for them without even, oh I don't know figure out how or why starkiller is alive?


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