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Old 06-28-2010, 09:00 AM   #63
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Off the top of my head:
1. She enslaved Hanharr with another life debt and kept him alive solely so she could set him up for another fight with Mira
2. Invades Atton's mind with the Force and uses information from that to blackmail him into staying with the crew
3. Used Tobin to draw Nihilus to Telos, sending the latter to what just about amounts to certain death in doing so
4. And, of course, her plan to kill the Force had a good chance of killing either all life in the known universe, or a pretty big chunk
1. yes, but after it he can leave peacefully, the Czerka is faar worst than kreia when it come to the wookies, or other non human species, really FAAR worst, and they aren't even siths, the mandalorian too, are worst, like hunting wookies in the shadowlands for pleasure, Kreia have used him, but well, he already wanted to kill mira, so Kreia just keep him on live against his will but, what she ask him to do, isnt really a big problem to Hanrrar, and after killing mira he can do what he want, no more life debt, or he loose once again, and she have just forced him to live a couple days-weeks more, is that that bad as to call her malevolent?

2. Yes she love to manipulate, but well, Atton eventually fall in love with the exile, so I don't think Atton would really regret to have stayed in the crew, so in that the only bad thing is the way she have done it, but the action itself, isn't really comparable to what many other siths have ever done.

3. Well would you consider someone evil because he sent Stalin, Pinochet, Franco, a SS officer, or any other guy like this, to a certain death, or to cannibals, or whatever? Tobin, is the one that tried to kill the ebon hawk crew because he was ally with the Siths, we tried under vaklu orders to take control of Onderon, making a civil war, i'm not specially a partisan of the death penalty because the risk of killing innocents, but when the crime is clear, and really serious, I don't think bit is inhuman to do so, maybe kreia's reasons weren't noble, but once again the action itself isn't that bad.
And yes she put Telos in danger, but i think letting Nihilus live would cause more deaths in the long term.

4. For me it is more a depressive act, that an evil act, she don't do it to kill anyone, that's not her purpose, her purpose is to be free of the force, so it's more a crazy plan that an evil plan, it would be evil if she intended to do it to kill any one in the galaxy, so for me she's not evil, maybe she have harsh and cruel methods, she's old, crazy and depressed, but surely not malevolent.

And you didn't answer about visas
Unjustified murder is unjustified murder. The Jedi Masters were not trying to harm anyone for their own purposes. Furthermore, Kreia killed the Jedi Masters just as "arbitrarily" as they tried to block the Exile's ability to use the Force; they acted, at worst, out of ignorance of the Exile's significance in that she was the only one who could take Nihilus in a fight, while Kreia acted out of her thirst for revenge against the Jedi, knowing damn well what was going on, and at no point did she consider attempting to negotiate or reason with the Jedi.
On their own purpose maybe not, but they *were* trying to harm someone, all the game, make us think about how cruel it is to cut someone from the force, that it's as cutting him from his 5 senses, when the exile talk about it she say things as "such a cruel thing", so I think the exile would prefer to loose her eyes than the force, but the jedi master on their own beliefs decided that she must be cutted from the force, without trying to understand her, without looking if there were any other way. You can say there is not physical harm, but is like a rape, there isn't really physical harm, but it can destroy someone's life, and we know how the exile has just being hanging around the galaxy without purpose, or anything. There more, if you listen for all what Kreia say after killing them, you can understand her action, and i'm not sure if she would kill them if they haven't try to cut the exile's bond with the force.
And well she didn't try to negotiate, but them neither, they just took their lightsabers, when she appears, i don't think they would mind of killing her.

That is true, but you do not seem to be paying enough attention to why Kreia does so.
Yes I do, but have you forgotten what you said before?

there are only two flaws: random cruelty and betrayal. Remove that and the Sith are the good guys.
What about their tendencies to kill large numbers of other good guys and/or innocents? Besides, your statement about how good they'd be without those two traits is irrelevant, because at no point in the Sith Order's seven thousand year-history of existence and reformation did it ever not have those traits.
Well what I say proofs that kreia don't have the random cruelty, she never do anything cruel without purpose, when so do something cruel is really because she had to.

Those Masters were members of the Jedi Covenant, a radical organization which, incidentally, was not known to exist even by the Council, which was pissed off over what happened on Taris.
Radical organization or not, they were jedi masters, forming part of the jedi order, and as far as we know they are jedi, not siths.

They didn't exile the Exile for her beliefs; that was just what they told her.
Well, Speak for you, Atris wanted even to kill her, and she really blames the exile for have gone to the mandalorian wars, and Vrook too, they blame the exile for have joined the mandalorian wars, maybe not all the masters, but some of them does blame her for that, and think she fall into the dark side but act for her beliefs and try to save innocents, what the council refuse to do

As Carth I think, have said, if it was under the council oders, that the jedi have joined the mandalorian wars, maybe there wouldn't have been any jedi civil war.

The Jedi Council did give Revan their support after they learned of what the Mandalorians did on Cathar.
And still, they kip blaming the jedi who go fight in the mandalorian wars, blaming them for all the sith problems it were after it, but if revan has been a general, and the jedi council the commanders, don't you think it would be the better solution? instead of it, they just stayed in their chairs, watch, then blame.

Jedi aren't supposed to suppress their emotions, they're supposed to deal with them by keeping them under control. Hence, if Anakin had kept his emotions under control, he never would have gotten with his wife and the **** that went down in Episode III very well might have gone much better for the galaxy.

Furthermore, does Anakin's marriage being secret have to do with him falling to the dark side? What difference would the situation with him being hysterically afraid of her dying have?
Well if for you retaining for fall in love with padme, is "control" his emotions, and not "suppress" them.. then let's say "control", and of course not being allowed to love, is not asking you to supress your emotions, just control them Tell me how do you control the fact of falling in love (other way than supress your feelings, because if you control the felling of love that you have, then it means you're in love ^^)

Well, if he wouldn't have his marriage secret, we could have talk of it with obi wan, or yoda, and they could have helped him, instead of it, the only one with whom he could talk about it, was palpatine, and we all know how bad it was. If the jedi have give him support, with his relation, and helped him, to stay in the way, he wouldn't have cut windu's hand, because he "needs" (or at least he thinks so) palpatine, but would it be the same, if the jedi have offered their' support?

No, they're just not allowed to get unnecessarily attached to people. Because of what happened with Anakin, for example.
And Bastilla return into the light side, because she's in love with revan, so the "unnecessarily attachment" as you say save her from the dark side.

You should speak more with jolee, i think like him that the jedi shouldn't learn to suppress their emotions, to don't love, to don't get angry, etc, because these are thing that can't always be avoided, but the jedi should learn to deal ith the emotions, how to love without letting the love made you crazy like anakin, because there will always be jedi with such feelings, so it would be better to teach them how to live with their emotions, instead of ignoring them.

To give an example other that the pedophile priest that you just ignored, are you an anti sex catholic partisan? do you think that for avoiding unwanted pregnancy, or virus you should forbid people to having sex for other reasons than the reproduction? knowing that the young would often just not listen at their parents and now we see young of 11 years not virgin, girl who just hook with all their friends to pass the time etc.(that's the way the jedi deal with the emotions)

Or would you instead try to speak with them, prevent them for the risk, invent the condoms, and give the people the tool to avoid the risk without forbid them to have sex. For example the parents, instead of forbid the children for having sex, talk with them about it, the risk, giving the girl more confidence to be able to say no, when they don't want to, and not let them learn about it in po** movies, having sex hide from their parents, etc...

What do you think would be the best solution?

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