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Old 01-03-2013, 03:26 AM   #6
Bob Saget
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I'm gonna join in on this debate

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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post


Bioware has no reason to make apologies for Revan and the Exile being beatable. As far as I'm concerned, the Revan novel did nothing but take these two characters that the fanbase exalts as the greatest and wisest Force-users ever and make them actually just a little bit human.
I actually agree to a point, the fanbase really hyped Revan and the Exile up to God-like creatures. This perhaps came from the fact that they controlled their actions. Course, you can also apply the same logic to Kyle Katarn. Is he any less a jedi than Revan or the Exile? (I'm not gonna bother saying her real name).

However, given the accounts from multiple people in Kotor I and II (Canderous, The Jedi Council, Bastila, Carth, need I say more) that Revan was perhaps the greatest strategist of his time. Given how formidable the Mandalorians are, an out-of-the-box strategist is needed for such a conflict. I doubt Malak would have even come close to defeating the Mandalorians because he did not understand military strategy as Revan did.

As for the novel, I read it myself and it really is a poor excuse for continuity. The fact that Revan would abandon his normal life just because he had some bad dreams is unbelievably stupid, and what's more is that it completely disregarded a lot of the events of Kotor II. Sure, TSL really wasn't THAT huge on the galaxy as Kotor I was, but you'd think people would notice that the Jedi fell of the map, planets are dying, and force vampires are killing various force sensitives. It would be pretty hard to miss that.

Secondly, it was made pretty darn clear in TSL that the Exile wasn't a normal Jedi, she was basically a Force Black Hole. The novel itself depicted her as a normal jedi like anybody else. Given that perspective, it's understandable that her power grew to enormous amounts around the force sensitives she was with. Traveling alone made her a normal Jedi once more. However, the Exile's background is a pretty huge factor if you're gonna make a novel including her.

Now, onto other aspects, while some of the novel was ridiculous, I will say I liked certain parts such as Revan's venture with Canderous. But, the book as a whole just seemed idiotic as it cast Star Wars back into the idea that everything was black and white. I think many of us, perhaps a lot preferred Star Wars when things weren't as simplistic.

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More to the point, canon is an editorial necessity since these stories are part of the larger Star Wars EU, and there has to be an official version of these galactic events if any subsequent stories are to make reference to it (and not allowing future authors to reference the KotOR games for the sake of some fans' egos would be absurd). If you don't like the official version they come up with, well, you don't have to like it. And you only have to accept it if you're in a debate with someone which requires the whole of the EU to be taken into account. Just do what I do with all the EU I don't like (Jedi Academy trilogy, Karen Traviss, New Jedi Order series, Legacy of the Force, etc), and don't like it.
I personally don't like the way things turned out, but the reason why is because it retcons so many ideas brought up in TSL that it basically becomes non-existant. It's hard to ignore a game focused on characters and back story when so many people have played it (Though given how it was incomplete, there were probably a lot of people who didn't like it). What makes RPGs so great is that you should feel that your decisions matter. For Example, in Mass Effect (disgregarding ME3), you pretty much see the results of your choices through and through. While some choices are basically meaningless, others show throughout. Again, a lot of the decisions and actions in Kotor and TSL had a pretty large impact throughout the galaxy, so it would have taken some mass-amnesia disease to wipe that all away.

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1. You are accepting Kreia's every word about Revan as fact despite the fact that she is unreliable - As we see in abundance throughout TSL, Kreia tends to have very, very strong opinions about her student, particularly whenever those opinions are about whether he was justified in his actions. Worth noting is that Revan is known for defying the Jedi Council many times in his actions, and that Kreia has an intense vendetta against the Council for denouncing Revan and her. Kreia despises the Council and their decrees, considering them to be set in their ways and unwilling to stand for supposedly being proven wrong, and feels betrayed for how they blamed and exiled her for Revan's turn to the dark side. Kreia lost her life as a Jedi Master because the authorities over her wouldn't accept her greatest student. She equipped Revan for everything he did, and then lost everything because of it. She therefore has a need to justify Revan, and therefore herself, in order to believe that her life hasn't been a waste. Is it not telling that she absolutely never in TSL says anything whatsoever about Revan that is negative or critical, never says anything about him except what a great guy he was? Also noteworthy is that she claims to know quite a lot about Revan's motivations, but has no way of actually knowing so much about those motivations after Revan left for the Mandalorian Wars, since we have no evidence that the two were in contact during or after that period. In short, Kreia has several major self-serving reasons to portray Revan in an unrealistically positive light and to pass off his actions as being for the noblest reasons imaginable. There is very little reason to consider her an authority where Revan is concerned.
Kreia never had strong feelings for her students, the only think she cared about was her resolve and what she had to do. She was one of the most manipulative characters I have ever met, until the Illusive Man, I probably haven't seen anyone lie as much as her, and even then I think she has him beat. However, what makes Kreia unique is that she understands both light and dark. She was at a time a Jedi Knight, it may not be official but given the clues throughout the game we can all know who she really is/was before become a Sith Lord.

You're assuming a lot right there, but so am I. Is it so hard to believe that she is simply proud of her student who succeeded in every way she wanted him to? Secondly, nobody really knows what happened to Revan out in the unknown regions. That jedi archive person may assume what happened, but again that comes from a biased view. Remember that Kriea was most likely a sith lord by the time of Malachor V, and it was said that Revan walked the surface and learned the teachings there, probably from her. Again, who knows what happened there. However, you idea that Kriea makes Revan out to be a God is ridiculously unfair.

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2. Revan did not become the Dark Lord of the Sith out of any necessity, whether we accept TSL or TOR's theoretically revised version of it - The soundness of Revan's joining of the Mandalorian Wars is debatable. On one hand, the Jedi Council was initially doing little to deal with the invaders. On the other hand, Revan was being reckless in leading a large number of Jedi in direct defiance of them under his own command, inviting the possibility of some sort of disaster befalling them on account of his unchecked leadership (which eventually did happen; worth noting is also that the Council did give Revan their support against the Mandalorians after the genocide at Cathar was revealed to them per the comic, Masks). More important, though, is Revan's actions after he had been fighting in the war for a while. We are given plenty of information even as far back as KotOR I (the computer guarding the Kashyyyk Star Map, especially) about how he conducted the war, being willing to allow preventable deaths in order to strengthen his own public image. In TSL, Kreia (on Dantooine after slaying the three Jedi Masters) goes into detail about how Revan deliberately used the war to corrupt his Jedi to the dark side and to loyalty to him ("The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion"). HK-47 (and several others) also note that Revan deliberately worked to have certain individuals under his command killed in the war - specifically, those who were not loyal to him personally and therefore wouldn't follow him when he betrayed the Republic. This directive culminated in Malachor V, where Revan deliberately used a superweapon to massacre both the Mandalorian fleet and his own fleet, composed of officers he determined wouldn't follow him, with the side-effect of shattering the nearby planet and creating a wound in the Force. Now then, with all that out of the way, the question remains of whether for Revan, knowing about the Sith Empire in the unknown regions eventually wanting to come get revenge on the Republic, becoming a Sith Lord was justified. The answer is no because after having beaten the Mandalorians, Revan could have told the Jedi and Republic about the true Sith (his findings on Malachor would have been more than enough to convince the Jedi Council). Instead he took his fleets and armies, made all of them into Sith, and declared war on the Republic - this act was in no way prompted by any dire situational circumstances and can only be explained by a desire on his part to rule the galaxy. Whether he eventually was made into a herald of Vitiate is incidental to this; Revan already set his plans to become a Sith ruler in motion before the two ever met.
So you're basically saying that Revan fell in the same basic sith way? False, his fall didn't happen at the hands of any sith lord. He had already fallen by then, the mandalorians tought him a lot as Kreia said. Given the turn of events, it's safe to say that Revan had already fallen by the time of Malachor V. So then what do you suggest he should have done then? There were two choices, be overly cautious or take action? Had he not gone to war, you think the galaxy would have been better off? (ugh, I feel deja vu here).

If you think about it, allowing preventable deaths to happen to make your public image stronger is a sound tactic. It spurs the public to react, thus more soldiers bolster your ranks. This has been a tactic for years. Second, would you rather kill your enemy or turn him to your side of things? Taking Jedi and turning them to your side yet again bolsters your rank, plus in time it will erode the will of opposing Jedi and the public. And what would you have done in his shoes? As a General, you want soldiers who are loyal to you and will do as you ask, no matter what. If you have soldiers that are disloyal, they are seen as expendable and are sent first into fire, or are transferred to another unit.

You're implying that the Jedi actually had the strength and will to go fight a war against the Sith right then and there. The republic was spent after its war with the Mandalorians, and why would the Jedi trust Revan after he defied them openly? If the current military power was un-prepared and in-capable of fighting a war against a power that was 10-times the size of what Revan conjured, then it would be better it be replaced by another.

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3. Revan's actions caused a lot of horrible repercussions - Revan created a Sith Order which spawned the likes Malak, Jorak Uln, Uthar Wynn, and countless other despots and narcissists (none of which, it is ever hinted, he ever disapproved of or punished the brutality of despite Revan supposedly caring so much about reducing collateral damage), as well as Sith assassins who tortured captive Jedi into converting. He is also indirectly responsible for Darth Nihilus and Malachor's wound in the Force (which he may or may not have been able to forsee). Needless to say, absolutely none of this was necessary in order to protect the galaxy from the true Sith.
Darth Nihilus at the time wasn't exactly part of the big picture, so him being un-aware is understandable. The narcissists you describe are what Revan pictures are mere fodder for his army, I doubt he cared what background they were as they got the job done.

So really, how can you truly come to the conclusion that he wasn't doing this out of protecting the galaxy from the true sith? I mean no offense, but from what I take you're point of view seems as narrow as that of a Jedi in that era. Bioware and Obsidian may have not meant to mean more than the simple Light-side/dark side dichotomy, but lucas meant Star Wars to be a universe full of speculation.

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4. There is no evidence to suggest that Revan's actions nearly prevented a greater evil because he was no better than the "true" Sith - What did Vitiate plan and eventually carry out 300 years later? Invade and conquer the galaxy with his Sith Empire. What did Revan do? Invade and try to conquer the galaxy with his Sith Empire. And there is nothing fundamentally different about the two Empires, as far as how well the galaxy would've fared under either of them. Vitiate's empire was extremely Human and Pureblood Sith-centric, but as we see in KotOR I, the Sith of Revan and Malak's empire were just as racist, at least in the rank-and-file membership (though it is notable that very few Sith in the game are non-human). In the end, both Sith rules destroyed planets and killed Republic military members, Jedi, and civilians. There is nothing suggesting the galaxy would have been better off under Revan. If anything, his noble goal of saving it from the "true" Sith is merely how Revan justified his goals of conquest himself (and again, this is generously assuming that Kreia knew anything about what she was talking about when speaking for his motivations); he wanted to save the galaxy for himself.
No evidence? Hmm, let me see..

1. Preserving military structures for future use
2. Converting hostile forces to your side
3. Revan was only willing to use the Star Forge to a point, he never actually embraced it as fully as Malak did.
4. If Revan knew about the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine already, why didn't he destroy it? It wasn't exactly hidden.
5. Created an entire race of hunter-killer droids that he left inactive.
6. purposely hid away the Mandalore helmet, if he didn't care about it then why didn't he destroy it?

I'd say that's evidence right there, it can be interpreted in many ways but the Star Forge point really settles it, if Revan was truly interested in power than he would have embraced its corruption.

While you may have a point about the similarities, the Revan's sith wasn't nearly as racist as you claim. But I digress, using an enemy's strategy can be key in learning how to defeat it.

Innocents died at the hands of Goto as well, are you willing to claim he was an object of the Sith as well? Revan was at war with the Republic, do you expect him to be nice to the soldiers?

Let's see, a democratic government filled with corruption that takes a long time to get things done or a ruthless but efficient dictatorship that succeeds at its goal with little trouble? I'd take the dictatorship anyday. A dictatorship has a far better chance of surviving than a democracy does in a war that the true with wages.

Kreia is a more complex character than that, her motivations may have been questionable but she definitely was not nearly as near-sighted as that you claim. Her plot to get revenge against the Jedi took many years of careful planning. She didn't want to kill them out-right, she wanted to prove them wrong and show how their teachings were wrong.

*sigh* simplistic Star Wars here I go again.

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In brief - The supposed gray morality of Revan in TSL is a lie that Kreia invents to justify herself and him (and for the record, I like the story of TSL not because it's a tract about how ****ing awesome Revan supposedly is, but because Kreia's character is written in such a powerful way). Whether you believe TSL, TOR, or both, Revan became a Sith Lord, killed a ton of innocent people during and even before that period, and tried to conquer the galaxy. Best-case scenario, Revan was a egomaniacal, sanctimonious, treacherous, delusional mass-murderer who successfully fooled himself (and his old master) into believing that his selfish desires for personal power were noble intentions to "save" the galaxy from others, and the only reason he was better than Vitiate himself is that unlike Vitiate, he didn't want to literally consume all life in the universe.
Innocent deaths are often un-avoidable, and sometimes their deaths are useful to your advantage. I'm sure there are strategists in America's Military who think the same way. It's not exactly a far fetched idea for Star Wars even.

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So, yeah. Revan's not a good character because he was so awesome that he was able to transcend morality and the fundamental rules of the Force in Star Wars. He was a good character because he's a tragic figure who began as a hero, fell to evil despite having good intentions (and likely justified it to himself along the way), but then was given a chance for redemption. And in the canon he went down fighting for what he believed in. Except in TOR the game; ironically, his last appearance to date in that game has him pulling the exact same routine as in his Mandalorian War days. Good enough for me aside from that last part. You're free to think what you want, but unless I've completely misinterpreted your position (which case I guess I'll just have to live with myself), you're wrong
I think you're gathering that point of view off many of the fanboys of Revan all around. I don't agree with them either, and I do agree with you that Revan wasn't a God as many people do say. However, you can't deny that he was an exceptional individual, and his fall to evil as you claim just doesn't seem to live up to his true persona as a brilliant strategist. He probably did see that the Sith will eventually conquer everybody, and he probably did commit atrocities that he meant. However, I don't think the generic Sith applies to Revan.

I'm going to bed, I'll come back tomorrow. FYI, I don't mean anything against you bro, I just like a friendly debate

Last edited by Bob Saget; 01-03-2013 at 02:42 PM.
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