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Old 06-08-2008, 03:49 AM   #1
Achilles
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Prove that jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes

No takers on the 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer, so perhaps we'll have better luck with this one:

Prove that jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes
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Old 06-08-2008, 12:39 PM   #2
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How the heck do you expect me (a person of religion) to respond to that?

Your youtube friend has made it quite clear: Anyone who is intelligent will realize that Jesus is imaginary, and all other arguments are but excuses. The condescending language and oversimplified thought process is very put-offing.



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Old 06-08-2008, 04:23 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
How the heck do you expect me (a person of religion) to respond to that?
However you would like to, my friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
Your youtube friend has made it quite clear: Anyone who is intelligent will realize that Jesus is imaginary, and all other arguments are but excuses.
Could you please help me understand what flaws exist with his reasoning or arguments?

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
The condescending language and oversimplified thought process is very put-offing.
Re: condescension - how was his language condescending?

Re: "oversimplification" - oversimplified? You'll need to help me understand how you came to this conclusion as well, please.

Thanks in advance for your response.
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Old 06-08-2008, 04:29 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
However you would like to, my friend.
Well then, this is how I'm going to:

No.

I've seen what happens when theism/deism/atheism debates get started on LF and I'm not going to play.

Sorry, but maybe next time. Nothing personal, though.

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Old 06-08-2008, 04:34 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
Well then, this is how I'm going to:

No.
But you already did!

You posted to let us know that you won't be posting?
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Old 06-08-2008, 04:45 PM   #6
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I posted to tell you that your video made some pretty large leaps (of faith, one might say ) and that I disagreed.

But now, I've thought better of it, because I tend to not stay as calm when discussing religion. I'd rather not post, and us stay on good terms.

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Old 06-08-2008, 04:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
I posted to tell you that your video made some pretty large leaps
He quoted the bible chapter and verse. No leaps were made whatsoever.

If you don't like what he said or would otherwise prefer not to discuss it, that's one thing. To parse out unsubstantiated claims that there is something wrong with the arguments presented though is something else entirely.

Even if you choose not to discuss the topic, I hope that you will at least be willing to consider my comment above nonetheless.

Take care!

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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
No offense, but what is the point of this type of discussion supposed to be?
Perfect world? A christian participates, sees that the arguments are sound, and subsequently gives up his or her superstitious traditions.

What I like to think I'm settling for? People not that terribly religious but have grown up within a religious tradition see this discussion, realize that there doubts were well founded, and are inspired to speak out against irrational thinking where ever they find it.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
The way I see it, nothing good or interesting can come of them.
You are welcome to your opinion of course. I think that if such discussions can do anything remotely like either of the scenarios above, then much good has come of them. That's my 2 cents.
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Old 06-08-2008, 04:47 PM   #8
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No offense, but what is the point of this type of discussion supposed to be? The way I see it, nothing good or interesting can come of them.


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Old 06-08-2008, 06:48 PM   #9
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Note to posters. If a topic is of unworthy discussion then it may be in your best interest ,and that of the forums, to not post in said topic.

If you disagree with a point made in a discussion thread, it is common courtesy and sense to reply with reasonings to your point. It cannot be in any way a discussion if you simply say "I disagree". Otherwise it becomes a waste of time and my moderating abilities.

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Old 06-09-2008, 01:14 AM   #10
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I simply think that you are mis-interpreting the scriptures. I would explain a little bit more, but I really need to get to bed soon.

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If Jesus were real he would appear to each of us.
I certainly know that he has appeared to me. I believe that he only 'appears' to us if we have a open-heart and truly believe in Him.
Quote:
Instead your prayer is ignored.
Really? Is there any proof to this?

I certainly know that this is not what you want to hear Achilles. Christianity is a religion of faith. That is all that it comes down to.

Thank you for reading.

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Old 06-09-2008, 01:25 AM   #11
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I simply think that you are mis-interpreting the scriptures. I would explain a little bit more, but I really need to get to bed soon.
I look forward to your reply after you've had an opportunity to rest.

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Originally Posted by Rev7 View Post
I certainly know that he has appeared to me. I believe that he only 'appears' to us if we have a open-heart and truly believe in Him.
A physical manifestation that could only be jesus appeared to you (hopefully with witnesses)?

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Originally Posted by Rev7 View Post
Really? Is there any proof to this?
Well, unless jesus physically appears to you, then yes.

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I certainly know that this is not what you want to hear Achilles. Christianity is a religion of faith. That is all that it comes down to.
As is islam, paganism, ancestor worship, hinduism, and any other religion you can think of. I'm not seeing how that makes it special or unique...or, most importantly, true.

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Thank you for reading.
My pleasure. Look forward to seeing you again soon.
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Old 06-09-2008, 07:59 PM   #12
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Okay, sorry that it has been a while, but I have been at school all day.

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A physical manifestation that could only be jesus appeared to you (hopefully with witnesses)?
You see, Jesus appeared to me. Not physically, but He has appeared to me through acts, He has appeared by talking to me, ect.

Is it any different than air? In my case, you know that it is there, but you cannot actually see it.




Quote:
Well, unless jesus physically appears to you, then yes.
Okay...that doesn't nescisarily make sense to me. Could you please explain a little bit more?

Quote:
As is islam, paganism, ancestor worship, hinduism, and any other religion you can think of. I'm not seeing how that makes it special or unique...or, most importantly, true.
You will probably think that this is irrelevant, but I will still say it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans 12:3 KJV
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myself
I simply think that you are mis-interpreting the scriptures.
Okay. I will get started...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 (King James Version)
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
Well, the same thing can be said abour prayer. If God is real, then how can he answer all of our prayers? There are still mysteries, that cannot be solved about Him. We cannot know everything about Him. (IMO)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 18:19-20 (King James Version)
19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Well, I believe that this is His presense. An "annointing"? As for the anything part, that doesn't necsicarily mean that he has to 'grant' it.

I know that you will just say that I have just made up another "excuse". This is my opinion, and aren't we all allowed to have our opinion. I know that you have your opinion on this matter (as well as others), and I have my opinion on these matters too. We all believe different things to be true. I want to let you know that I respect your opinion.
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My pleasure. Look forward to seeing you again soon.
As do I.

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Old 06-09-2008, 09:35 PM   #13
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Okay, sorry that it has been a while, but I have been at school all day.
No problem

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Originally Posted by Rev7 View Post
You see, Jesus appeared to me. Not physically, but He has appeared to me through acts, He has appeared by talking to me, ect.
Acts can be coincidental and "voices" can be the symptoms of psychosis. Per the video (and scripture) we know that jesus can appear to people and that he has appeared to people. So what good reason do we have to explain why he hasn't appeared to you?

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Originally Posted by Rev7 View Post
Is it any different than air? In my case, you know that it is there, but you cannot actually see it.
We have evidence for the existence of air, therefore the analogy does not apply

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Originally Posted by Rev7 View Post
Okay...that doesn't nescisarily make sense to me. Could you please explain a little bit more?
If you prayed for jesus to appear and he did not, then your prayer was not answered. Therefore we know that your prayer was ignored.

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Originally Posted by Rev7 View Post
You will probably think that this is irrelevant, but I will still say it.
<snip>
This doesn't address my point. Other religions require faith as well, therefore you cannot argue that christianity is somehow unique in this regard or that requiring faith makes it true.

It requires faith to believe that invisible fairies ride around in my shirt pocket too, but that doesn't mean that they exist.

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Originally Posted by Rev7 View Post
Okay. I will get started...
<snip>
Well, the same thing can be said abour prayer. If God is real, then how can he answer all of our prayers? There are still mysteries, that cannot be solved about Him. We cannot know everything about Him. (IMO)
That doesn't tell me anything.

The passage clearly states that jesus can appear to people and has appeared to people. Are you disputing that?

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Originally Posted by Rev7 View Post
Well, I believe that this is His presense. An "annointing"? As for the anything part, that doesn't necsicarily mean that he has to 'grant' it.
Gee, that sounds very similar to Excuse #2

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Originally Posted by Rev7 View Post
I know that you will just say that I have just made up another "excuse". This is my opinion, and aren't we all allowed to have our opinion. I know that you have your opinion on this matter (as well as others), and I have my opinion on these matters too. We all believe different things to be true. I want to let you know that I respect your opinion.
We are entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts.

I understand that it is your opinion that he has misinterpreted those passages, however you haven't really presented an argument showing how he misinterpreted them or show why we should accept your opinion over his.

Take care.
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Old 06-09-2008, 09:44 PM   #14
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If you prayed for jesus to appear and he did not, then your prayer was not answered. Therefore we know that your prayer was ignored.
Now you have a little bit mad...to this quote, yes it wasn't answered, but not because he doesn't exist, it's because he didn't feel it would help you...for example say I prayed for a Porsche, would he give to me, it depends on how I am, if I always take take take, and never give back, then no, I'm not going to get one, if I'm always giving in tithes and offerings, then I have a chance of getting one, it all depends on the person, and the consequence...


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.

Last edited by M@RS; 06-09-2008 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
Acts can be coincidental and "voices" can be the symptoms of psychosis. Per the video (and scripture) we know that jesus can appear to people and that he has appeared to people. So what good reason do we have to explain why he hasn't appeared to you?
Yes I know that He has appeared to people. He can appear to anyone and has done so. My mother has a picture of Jesus standing on the wing of an airplane. Her friend gave this to her in the 1980's. I cannot prove that to you though because I don't personally have the picture. It is not on the Internet either. That is all that I will say about that for now, and all that I will say about it.
Quote:
We have evidence for the existence of air, therefore the analogy does not apply
I believe that we have evidence of existance of Jesus too. The Bible.

Quote:
If you prayed for jesus to appear and he did not, then your prayer was not answered. Therefore we know that your prayer was ignored.
Yup. You do not really know if our prayer was ignored. How do you really have proof of this?

Quote:
This doesn't address my point. Other religions require faith as well, therefore you cannot argue that christianity is somehow unique in this regard or that requiring faith makes it true.

It requires faith to believe that invisible fairies ride around in my shirt pocket too, but that doesn't mean that they exist.
Other religions require faith too. I am not saying that they don't.

That is exactly what I am saying Achilles. It does require faith to believe that invisible fairies are riding around in your shirt pocket. It does require faith to believe that Jesus exists.

What about gravity? We know that it keeps us on Earth. For all we know, we have invisible fairies holding us down.

Quote:
The passage clearly states that jesus can appear to people and has appeared to people. Are you disputing that?
Not at all.

Quote:
Gee, that sounds very similar to Excuse #2
I knew that you would say that.

"You will probably think that this is irrelevant, but I will still say it."

Quote:
We are entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts.

I understand that it is your opinion that he has misinterpreted those passages, however you haven't really presented an argument showing how he misinterpreted them or show why we should accept your opinion over his.
Are you saying that the people that make up the "facts" are really stating their own opinion?



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Take care.
You too.

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Old 06-09-2008, 01:49 AM   #16
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I appreciate you looking anyway. Thank you, sir!

EDIT: Btw, Tyrion, you might enjoy the movie The God Who Wasn't There (assuming that you haven't seen it already). Trailer

Last edited by Achilles; 06-09-2008 at 02:47 AM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 07:32 AM   #17
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I'd say Jesus being imaginary is a bunch of crap. How can a religion be started about someone who never existed? Also, he is mentioned in more than one type of religion: Islam, even.
The thing I DON'T believe though is that he was anything more than a man. Messenger, maybe, but God or 1/3 God....I don't think so.





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Old 06-09-2008, 08:51 AM   #18
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I'd say Jesus being imaginary is a bunch of crap. How can a religion be started about someone who never existed?
Ever play the game "Telephone"?



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Old 06-09-2008, 10:57 AM   #19
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I'd say Jesus being imaginary is a bunch of crap. How can a religion be started about someone who never existed? Also, he is mentioned in more than one type of religion: Islam, even.
Are you arguing therefore that the titans must have really existed? The pantheon of Greek gods? The Roman gods? The Norse gods? The Egyptian gods? The Japanese gods? All the various gods from Native American mythology? Shall I go on?

I mean, how can a religion be started about someone who never existed?

(hint: you can't have it both ways)

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The thing I DON'T believe though is that he was anything more than a man. Messenger, maybe, but God or 1/3 God....I don't think so.
Can you point to any evidence whatsoever that supports the argument that a man named Jesus existed where the stories said he did? The same sources that tell us of his existence also tell us that he was divine, so arguing that he was real but not divine seems an awful lot like cherry picking.
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Old 06-09-2008, 06:03 PM   #20
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Can you point to any evidence whatsoever that supports the argument that a man named Jesus existed where the stories said he did? The same sources that tell us of his existence also tell us that he was divine, so arguing that he was real but not divine seems an awful lot like cherry picking.
Now you're arguing the other side? Does it really have to be all or nothing?

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Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
christianity... that jesus ...unless jesus physically appears... islam, hinduism,...
Are they typos, are are you trying to make a point as to your regard for Jesus & religion?

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Old 06-09-2008, 06:18 PM   #21
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Now you're arguing the other side?
Not at all. What makes you say that?

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Does it really have to be all or nothing?
Yes, what the source asserts is either true or it is not. That's just the way things work. That isn't my decision.

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Are they typos, are are you trying to make a point as to your regard for Jesus & religion?
Don't ask what I do with dollar bills and sharpies.
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Old 06-09-2008, 09:57 PM   #22
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Can you not read the "For Example" part, if not I'll make it bigger...


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:08 PM   #23
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You can make the text as large as you like but it isn't going to make your analogy comparable.
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:12 PM   #24
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You can make the text as large as you like but it isn't going to make your analogy comparable.
You did this in the last thread... it was an example, GOOD LORD! don't you get that?! EXAMPLE! it was so you could get it, it's not supposed to be what you're talking about, it's an example.


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:17 PM   #25
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Yes, I get that. And I am pointing out that it is a poor one; jesus appearing and god giving you a car are not comparable.
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:24 PM   #26
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Yes, I get that. And I am pointing out that it is a poor one; jesus appearing and god giving you a car are not comparable.
It's an example, if you want a better one just tell me...


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:27 PM   #27
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Yeah, if you have a better one, that would be great.
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:30 PM   #28
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Okay, first of all I think I should apologize, for screaming at you like I did. I'm sorry, I read Romans 2 and I felt I should apologize.

And another example, hmm, give me a while to think about this one...

Alright, let's take an omniscent Bumblebee (transformers) and Sam asked Bumblebee to show himself to Sam, and Bumblebee didn't because someone else had claimed that Bumblebee showed up to them and had coffe with them... Now let's put that in the sense of God and you...if God (Jesus) showed himself to you and you went telling other people, noone would believe you because people have already made a mockery of it, like I had coffee with Jesus or lunch...They would make fun of you, and if you were a christian, then God wouldn't show himself...

Does that work?


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:13 PM   #29
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And another example, hmm, give me a while to think about this one...
<snip>
Does that work?
You're still trying to use an example of something relatively extraordinary as an analogy for something relatively ordinary.

Even if he would not appear to me for fear that I would mock him (even though I've stated repeatedly that all it would take for me to become a believer is some evidence), that doesn't explain why he does not appear to you or Rev7.

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Yes I know that He has appeared to people. He can appear to anyone and has done so. My mother has a picture of Jesus standing on the wing of an airplane. Her friend gave this to her in the 1980's. I cannot prove that to you though because I don't personally have the picture. It is not on the Internet either. That is all that I will say about that for now, and all that I will say about it.
Sounds like an interesting picture.

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I believe that we have evidence of existance of Jesus too. The Bible.
We have evidence for allah via the qu'ran, for the Flying Spaghetti Monster via the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and for Harry Potter via the best selling books. But I'm willing to bet that you aren't a muslim, a Pastafarian, or a pracitioner of wizardry. Why not?

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Yup. You do not really know if our prayer was ignored. How do you really have proof of this?
Either the prayer was answered or it was not.

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Other religions require faith too. I am not saying that they don't.
You're not responding to the argument in it's entirety.

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That is exactly what I am saying Achilles. It does require faith to believe that invisible fairies are riding around in your shirt pocket. It does require faith to believe that Jesus exists.
Does this mean that you will now pray to invisible fairies, magic teapots, or any other silly thing I think up as an example?

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What about gravity? We know that it keeps us on Earth. For all we know, we have invisible fairies holding us down.
Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis? Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis over any of the other countless possible explanations that are all equally untestable?

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Not at all.
Then I'm struggling to understand what your point was.

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I knew that you would say that.
Yes you did. Which tells me that you're smart enough to know better

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Are you saying that the people that make up the "facts" are really stating their own opinion?
No, what I'm saying is, "don't bring opinions to a fact fight".

Your opinions do not change what the bible says. If you are not disputing what the bible says, then you are not discounting the author's arguments. And if you are not discounting the author's arguments then I'm left to wonder on what grounds you are contesting what he said (since that seemed to be your original point).
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:18 PM   #30
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You're still trying to use an example of something relatively extraordinary as an analogy for something relatively ordinary.

Even if he would not appear to me for fear that I would mock him (even though I've stated repeatedly that all it would take for me to become a believer is some evidence), that doesn't explain why he does not appear to you or Rev7.
As I said in the above, if I told someone that I was a christian and Jesus had shown himself to me, they would say that I was a religious freak and make fun of me AND God...

And hopefully here is some evidence (a story is about to be told about my father below)

My dad was going through a really hard time, and at a service he went to the altar and was praying to God to give him his identity, no sooner had he thought the word IDENTITY, the pastor said, _______ God has told me to tell you one word, IDENTITY... Today my dad's a pastor and he's never been happier


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:59 PM   #31
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As I said in the above, if I told someone that I was a christian and Jesus had shown himself to me, they would say that I was a religious freak and make fun of me AND God...
Completely irrelevant.

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And hopefully here is some evidence (a story is about to be told about my father below)
<snip>
"Pinch, poke, you owe me a coke" is your evidence for god?
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:39 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
We have evidence for allah via the qu'ran, for the Flying Spaghetti Monster via the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and for Harry Potter via the best selling books. But I'm willing to bet that you aren't a muslim, a Pastafarian, or a pracitioner of wizardry. Why not?
Why not? I don't believe any of that stuff to be true, and wizardry is not a good thing in my eyes. I am also not muslim. I don't believe those things to be true.
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Either the prayer was answered or it was not.
Okay? How do you know that it wasn't answered?
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You're not responding to the argument in it's entirety.
I don't understand what you are saying. I know what faith is.

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Does this mean that you will now pray to invisible fairies, magic teapots, or any other silly thing I think up as an example?
Where exactly did I say that?

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Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis? Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis over any of the other countless possible explanations that are all equally untestable?
I don't accept that as truth. I was just making a point. Whether or not you saw that point, I don't know.

I am curious why a large number of people believe that Jesus was real/is real? Are you saying that all of these people are irrational?

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Then I'm struggling to understand what your point was.
That he does/can appear to people?
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Yes you did. Which tells me that you're smart enough to know better
I was putting myself in your shoes.

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No, what I'm saying is, "don't bring opinions to a fact fight".
Okay, I guess that I mis-interpreted you then. I am sorry.

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Your opinions do not change what the bible says. If you are not disputing what the bible says, then you are not discounting the author's arguments. And if you are not discounting the author's arguments then I'm left to wonder on what grounds you are contesting what he said (since that seemed to be your original point).
I don't quite understand what you are trying to get across....how am I disputing what the Bible says....??


Good Night!

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Old 06-10-2008, 12:02 AM   #33
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You're not making any sense whatsoever...in what's with the "coke" saying...you asked for evidence I gave you a second hand story I was told from my dad...That's evidence isn't it? I forgot to say that, he experienced the whole thing, you think he'd lie to me?


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.

Last edited by M@RS; 06-10-2008 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 06-10-2008, 12:38 AM   #34
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Why not? I don't believe any of that stuff to be true, and wizardry is not a good thing in my eyes. I am also not muslim. I don't believe those things to be true.
Why do you believe in christianity? Thus far you have just as much evidence for that as you do these other things. Is your selection arbitrary?

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Okay? How do you know that it wasn't answered?
Because jesus didn't appear.

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I don't understand what you are saying. I know what faith is.
"Faith" is not a good argument. If you know that "faith" is required for other things, then "faith" doesn't seem like a particularly rigorous way of determining truth.

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Where exactly did I say that?
It was a question. You're free to answer however you'd like.

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I don't accept that as truth. I was just making a point. Whether or not you saw that point, I don't know.
Your point wasn't much of a point

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I am curious why a large number of people believe that Jesus was real/is real? Are you saying that all of these people are irrational?
Since this isn't Kavar's I think I'm still allowed to say "yes".

..at least with regards to their beliefs.

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That he does/can appear to people?
What is your evidence? If you believe this is true then what is your source of contention with the author's video?

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I was putting myself in your shoes.
Being able to figure out what someone else is going to say before they say it is a good skill to have. The best way to apply it is to not say what you were going to if their response isn't something you can counter.

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I don't quite understand what you are trying to get across....how am I disputing what the Bible says....??
If you are contesting what the author says then you are contesting what the bible says. If you are not contesting what the bible says, then you cannot contest what the author says. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that what the author says skews what it actually said in the bible. Which you have opted not to do up to this point.

I hope that helps to clarify.

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You're not making any sense whatsoever...in what's with the "coke" saying...
This should help.

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Originally Posted by M@RS View Post
you asked for evidence I gave you a second hand story I was told from my dad...That's evidence isn't it?
No sir it is not. No more so than it is evidence that your father's pastor was psychic.

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I forgot to say that, he experienced the whole thing, you think he'd lie to me?
No need for lies. I have no doubt that the events really happened. I have every reason to doubt that they signify what you seem to think they signify (or what he thought they signified, etc).
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Old 06-10-2008, 12:58 AM   #35
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Why do you believe in christianity? Thus far you have just as much evidence for that as you do these other things. Is your selection arbitrary?

Because jesus didn't appear.

"Faith" is not a good argument. If you know that "faith" is required for other things, then "faith" doesn't seem like a particularly rigorous way of determining truth.

It was a question. You're free to answer however you'd like.

Your point wasn't much of a point

Since this isn't Kavar's I think I'm still allowed to say "yes".

..at least with regards to their beliefs.

What is your evidence? If you believe this is true then what is your source of contention with the author's video?

Being able to figure out what someone else is going to say before they say it is a good skill to have. The best way to apply it is to not say what you were going to if their response isn't something you can counter.

If you are contesting what the author says then you are contesting what the bible says. If you are not contesting what the bible says, then you cannot contest what the author says. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that what the author says skews what it actually said in the bible. Which you have opted not to do up to this point.

I hope that helps to clarify.

This should help.

No sir it is not. No more so than it is evidence that your father's pastor was psychic.

No need for lies. I have no doubt that the events really happened. I have every reason to doubt that they signify what you seem to think they signify (or what he thought they signified, etc).
Okay first of all, don't treat me stupid, with the Jinx I know what it is, what I asked was why did you say that? And they do signify what my father and I knew it signified, show how it wasn't


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-10-2008, 01:11 AM   #36
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Okay first of all, don't treat me stupid, with the Jinx I know what it is, what I asked was why did you say that?
That isn't what you asked at all.

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Originally Posted by M@RS View Post
And they do signify what my father and I knew it signified, show how it wasn't
The burden of proof is yours, sir. There are numerous possible explanations, not the least of which is the aforementioned psychic abilities (which I don't believe either but since I can't rule it out...). Therefore, the conclusion that you've accepted is not the only one and the others have not been ruled out.

The fact that we have the "jinx" game tells us that people thinking or saying things at the same time is by no stretch of the imagination a rare occurrence.
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Old 06-10-2008, 07:11 PM   #37
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Why do you believe in christianity? Thus far you have just as much evidence for that as you do these other things. Is your selection arbitrary?
Why do I believe in Christianity? I believe that Jesus is real, and that he died for my sins, and the sins of the world on the cross. I also believe that He rose from the dead.

How exactly can I have "just as much evidence for that as you do these other things"? I am agrueing against these other things.

No, my selection is not arbitrary.

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Because jesus didn't appear.
So, if you ask someone to do something via a telephone, you have to see this person appear to make sure that they actually did what you asked?

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"Faith" is not a good argument. If you know that "faith" is required for other things, then "faith" doesn't seem like a particularly rigorous way of determining truth.
That is what you think. I certainly think that faith is 'rigorous'. I think that what I am doing has rigor. I am trying to convince you that He is real. I think that YOU think that it is more of a joke. At least I am trying. That is all that I can do. That takes faith, and rigor. I think that many others would think the same.

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It was a question. You're free to answer however you'd like.
Oh, I am sorry. I didn't see it as a question originally. To answer that question, no I will not pray to an 'invisible fairiy".


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Your point wasn't much of a point
Okay.....

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Since this isn't Kavar's I think I'm still allowed to say "yes".

..at least with regards to their beliefs.
And how exactly would Kavar's change your opinion.

I think that many people would think that your view is irrational.

Quote:
What is your evidence? If you believe this is true then what is your source of contention with the author's video?
Okay then. I know that Jesus can/has appeared to people (I know that has already been stated). I am not diputing that. I never disputed that.



Quote:
Being able to figure out what someone else is going to say before they say it is a good skill to have. The best way to apply it is to not say what you were going to if their response isn't something you can counter.
Thank you.

Quote:
If you are contesting what the author says then you are contesting what the bible says. If you are not contesting what the bible says, then you cannot contest what the author says. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that what the author says skews what it actually said in the bible. Which you have opted not to do up to this point.
I have already stated what I think to be is 'skewed'.
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Originally Posted by Rev7
Well, I believe that this is His presense. An "annointing"? As for the anything part, that doesn't necsicarily mean that he has to 'grant' it.
You have also stated that you think that what I said was an "excuse".


Thanks for your time.

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Old 06-10-2008, 07:35 PM   #38
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No takers on the 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer, so perhaps we'll have better luck with this one:
That's untrue; I answered in Kavar's; http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....&postcount=383



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Old 06-10-2008, 07:53 PM   #39
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Why do I believe in Christianity? I believe that Jesus is real, and that he died for my sins, and the sins of the world on the cross. I also believe that He rose from the dead.
But believing something doesn't make it true. I can believe that Monica Bellucci fantasizes about me, but that doesn't mean that it happens.

I might specify Monica Bellucci in my example because I find her particularly attractive and I want to believe that it's true. That belief might even cause me to feel like the irresistible hunk o' burnin' love that I am, but even that won't make it true.

Therefore, as I've stated repeatedly, having a belief/faith about something doesn't tell me anything about how real or true it is.

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How exactly can I have "just as much evidence for that as you do these other things"? I am agrueing against these other things.
There is zero evidence. Therefore the quantity of evidence for them is all the same (i.e. none).

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No, my selection is not arbitrary.
I'll take your word for it, but you'll still need to show me how this isn't the case.

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So, if you ask someone to do something via a telephone, you have to see this person appear to make sure that they actually did what you asked?
This example is not even close to what we're discussing. The bible says that jesus is among us. Introducing the "other end of a phone" scenario is disingenuous.

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That is what you think. I certainly think that faith is 'rigorous'. I think that what I am doing has rigor. I am trying to convince you that He is real. I think that YOU think that it is more of a joke. At least I am trying. That is all that I can do. That takes faith, and rigor. I think that many others would think the same.
Sir, "faith" is an argument for jesus just as much as it is an argument for islam, paganism, or any other diametrically opposed belief system that you wish to think up. Arguing that faith is an intellectually rigorous reason for accepting christianity is arguing that it is also an intellectually rigorous reason for believing in invisible pink unicorns and the flying spaghetti monster. Do you accept them as being real as well?

If not, then by the very same logic you must accept that faith is not a good reason for believing in jesus or god either.

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Oh, I am sorry. I didn't see it as a question originally. To answer that question, no I will not pray to an 'invisible fairiy".
Why not?

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And how exactly would Kavar's change your opinion.
It's wouldn't, however there are certain words that I'm not allowed to use there. "Irrational" is one of them. "Delusion" is another.

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I think that many people would think that your view is irrational.
And I would welcome them to discuss that with me any time they would like.

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Okay then. I know that Jesus can/has appeared to people (I know that has already been stated). I am not diputing that. I never disputed that.
Okay then, if you follow the steps in the video, why does he not appear?

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Thank you.
You're welcome

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I have already stated what I think to be is 'skewed'.
<snip>
You have also stated that you think that what I said was an "excuse".
That's because it was

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That's untrue; I answered in Kavar's; http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....&postcount=383
No my friend, you 100% did not. Putting words on a page is not the same thing as answering the question.

Example.
Question: Achilles, what is your favorite flavor of ice cream?
Response: I could really use a nap.

I posted a reply. There were words exchanged. I did not answer the question.
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Old 06-10-2008, 07:57 PM   #40
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No my friend, you 100% did not. Putting words on a page is not the same thing as answering the question.

Example.
Question: Achilles, what is your favorite flavor of ice cream?
Response: I could really use a nap.

I posted a reply. There were words exchanged. I did not answer the question.
You said 'takers' I took the 10 questions and put forth my answers



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