lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: What good reason is there to believe the Christian God exists? [The Debate Thread]
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 03-26-2009, 11:01 PM   #1
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
What good reason is there to believe the Christian God exists? [The Debate Thread]

There are two threads in the Senate that contain fallacious material regarding the belief in the supernatural. The OP has objected to these fallacies being pointed out in the threads he created, so I've created this one.

This thread will be the place to debate the existence of the Christian god (lowercase 'g' intentional since I'm referring to the title not the name).

If you have a good reason to believe in such a god, please post it here. I will provide the rational response to the supernatural.

Should a good reason be shown, I will acknowledge it. Should the reason(s) alleged to be good end up being fallacious instead, I will speak to it. I have no claim to make -I'm not claiming that the Christian god is non-existent, rather, I'm saying there's no good reason that I've seen yet to believe this god (a.k.a. Yahweh, El, Elohim, Jehovah) is anything more than myth and fantasy.

If the term "ignorant" is used, it refers most likely to the argument from ignorance, which basically states a speculative claim must be true since actual causality cannot be established.

If the term "cult" is used, it refers to the anthropological definition, which generally refers to the followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices.

If the term "fallacious" is used, it refers to the incorrect application of logic and reasoning.

If the term "superstition" is used, it refers to the belief in the supernatural.

Terms like "moron," "idiot," "retard," etc. will not be used and posts that contain these will be deleted.


So... what is the first "good reason" to believe in the Christian god.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-26-2009, 11:11 PM   #2
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi
In Christianity, God has revealed Himself. No other religion in the world can say that.
And yet they do. Hmm... How do we know which religion is the right one? How do you know that Christianity is the right one? On what data do you base the claim above and how many non-Christian religious scriptures will I need to produce to get you to retract it? I want to establish this number prior to quoting them to avoid any goal-post moving in the future.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-26-2009, 11:58 PM   #3
kirk_is_pwn
Rookie
 
kirk_is_pwn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Georgia.
Posts: 24
Current Game: none lol.
See the thing about it is,out of all the religion in this world Christianity is really the only one in which the diety revealed himself to man and did not hide in the least. God revealed Himself to us through His son Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us that. And most other religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism don't even have any kind of documented scripture or writings.


kirk_is_pwn is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-27-2009, 12:10 AM   #4
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirk_is_pwn View Post
The Bible tells us that.
Begging the question -a circular and, thus, fallacious argument (See above). Therefore not a good reason to believe in your god.

Quote:
And most other religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism don't even have any kind of documented scripture or writings.
This is an argument from ignorance. Just because you have not read the Rigveda, Yajurveda, Samaveda, Atharvaveda, Brahmanas, Vedanta, the Bhagavad Gita, Purana, Agama, Darshana, Pancharatra, Tantra, Akilathirattu, Sūtra, Stotra, Dharmashastra, Divya Prabandha, Tevaram, Ramacharitamanas, Shikshapatri, Vachanamrut, Ananda Sutram, Sutras, or Suttas, doesn't mean they don't exist.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-27-2009, 12:16 AM   #5
kirk_is_pwn
Rookie
 
kirk_is_pwn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Georgia.
Posts: 24
Current Game: none lol.
I guess what I should have said there was that the Hindu people dont have a form of instruction in use that is in a literary form (sorry for the mistake), rather they have a collection of hymns. Sorry about that.


kirk_is_pwn is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-27-2009, 12:19 AM   #6
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirk_is_pwn View Post
I guess what I should have said there was that the Hindu people dont have a form of instruction in use that is in a literary form (sorry for the mistake), rather they have a collection of hymns. Sorry about that.
Much of Christian mythology is actually "a collection of hymns" and poems. Much of the texts listed above are both prescriptive and descriptive -in many cases more so than Christian mythology.

It would seem that you're still wrong.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-26-2009, 11:53 PM   #7
obi
LFN Staff Emeritus
 
obi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Augusta GA
Posts: 6,893
Current Game: Game of life, yo
(Before we get started, I would just like to say that I know I am probably outnumbered, so if someone wants to debate, it may be some time before I can respond, given that there will probably be a good many respond. Also, if you see that someone on your side has already posted your argument point, please do not re-post. It'll drain me time =( )

I was saying that God has shown Himself to us through the life of Christ. Actually revealing His new covenant (the NT in the Bible). No other religious deity can make the claim that it actually came down here to live among us for the purpose of reconciling ourselves back to it.




Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?-Matthew 7:3-5
Living Water Revival

Me on Myspace


Last edited by obi; 03-27-2009 at 12:00 AM.
obi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-27-2009, 12:03 AM   #8
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by obi View Post
I was saying that God has shown Himself to us through the life of Christ. Actually revealing His new covenant (the NT in the Bible). No other religious deity can make the claim that it actually came down here to live among us for the purpose of reconciling ourselves back to it.
Even if we assume that Jesus actually existed (another thread, to be sure), what evidence is there that the anonymous authors of Christian mythology were telling the truth? Indeed, there are enough contradictions in the gospels alone to question their claims. Further, none of the gospels or other NT books were written by authors during the time that Jesus was alleged to have lived.

What we see in Christian mythology is what we see in the religious mythology of other religions ranging from Indian Vedas to the Popul Vu and many oral religious traditions: hero stories and embellishment designed to give the followers of religious cults purpose, history, and order through mythical connection.

Finally, saying that the Christian god exists because it is written in biblical mythology is a circular argument. Since the Bible is alleged by true believers to be the inerrant word of God, this amounts to begging the question and saying God exists because God says he exists.

Biblical mythology is not a good reason to believe in the Christian god.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-27-2009, 12:16 AM   #9
obi
LFN Staff Emeritus
 
obi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Augusta GA
Posts: 6,893
Current Game: Game of life, yo
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker View Post
(A)Even if we assume that Jesus actually existed (another thread, to be sure), (B)Indeed, there are enough contradictions in the gospels alone to question their claims. (C)Further, none of the gospels or other NT books were written by authors during the time that Jesus was alleged to have lived.

(D)What we see in Christian mythology is what we see in the religious mythology of other religions ranging from Indian Vedas to the Popul Vu and many oral religious traditions: hero stories and embellishment designed to give the followers of religious cults purpose, history, and order through mythical connection.

(E)Finally, saying that the Christian god exists because it is written in biblical mythology is a circular argument. Since the Bible is alleged by true believers to be the inerrant word of God, this amounts to begging the question and saying God exists because God says he exists.

Biblical mythology is not a good reason to believe in the Christian god.

(A) Well, Jesus did exist. http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/e...-for-jesus.htm - just a simple resource, but I have more. Some Bible-based, others not.

(B) List me a few of the contradictions in the Gospels, and I will explain them of the best of my ability.

(C) This is true, none of the Gospels were actually written during the time of Christ, but if a jew from Nazi Germany wrote a book this year about it, that doesn't mean it is false.
(D) The NT writers and Jesus himself were aware of the other religions, and even spoke of them in the scriptures: 1 John 2:18 "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. " And 2 John 1:7 "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."

(E) I agree to an extent, saying he is real "because I say so" is not a good argument. However, it does need to be taken into consideration that the Bible (may) be God's word, because that is what we are ultimately debating.




Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?-Matthew 7:3-5
Living Water Revival

Me on Myspace

obi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-27-2009, 12:47 AM   #10
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by obi View Post
(A) Well, Jesus did exist. http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/e...-for-jesus.htm - just a simple resource, but I have more. Some Bible-based, others not.
Bible-based resources are dismissed. Circular arguments. I see a lot of evidence for place-names, etc. in the link above which are described in NT texts, but I didn't see the evidence for Jesus the alleged christ. It was a bit wordy, so perhaps you could quote the most convincing of the "evidences" listed there.

Quote:
(B) List me a few of the contradictions in the Gospels, and I will explain them of the best of my ability.
Exodus 10:15 "thou shalt not steal" vs. Exodus 3:22 "and ye shall spoil the Egyptians." Its okay to steal as long as it isn't from believers?

Deuteronomy 6:3 "The lord our god is one lord." vs. Genesis 1:26 "and god said, let us make man in our image." Is there one or more than one. Archaeological evidence points to a pantheon of gods as the Canaanite culture evolved into a Hebrew culture -the wife of Yahweh was Asherah according to archaeological evidence.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of god." vs. Job 1:1 "There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright." -Was Job a perfect sinner?

Matthew 1:16 "and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus." vs. Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli." Was Jesus the alleged christ's paternal grandfather Jacob or Heli?

I'm sure you'll have some creative hermeneutics that attempt to answer these contradictions, but there are dozens more of these and one wonders why there isn't a clear, consistent message in a text that is claimed to be the work of an omniscient, omnipotent deity.

Quote:
(C) This is true, none of the Gospels were actually written during the time of Christ, but if a jew from Nazi Germany wrote a book this year about it, that doesn't mean it is false.
This is a weak analogy. Indeed, if no Jew wrote about the Holocaust that lived during the time (and if no other person wrote of the Holocaust), then we would be right to question whether it occurred and we would be right to excavate the sites claimed so many years later by people who didn't witness it to verify the claim. Extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence. It isn't just the case that Christians and Jews didn't write about Jesus during the time he was alive -it is the case that no one apparently wrote about Jesus during the time of his life. Indeed, the earliest writings are at least a full generation later.

There is no good reason to believe that Jesus, as depicted in biblical mythology, was a real person.

Quote:
(D) The NT writers and Jesus himself were aware of the other religions, and even spoke of them in the scriptures: 1 John 2:18 "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. " And 2 John 1:7 "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."
This isn't meaningful information.

Quote:
(E) I agree to an extent, saying he is real "because I say so" is not a good argument. However, it does need to be taken into consideration that the Bible (may) be God's word, because that is what we are ultimately debating.
No. It doesn't. There is no good reason to accept that biblical mythology is the word of a god. Particularly when it is so clearly flawed, full of bad advice, and indicative of an evil and degenerate deity (which, not coincidentally, appears to have all the characteristics of evil human degenerates who wipe out entire cultures and ethnic groups.

There is no more good reason to believe that the Christian bible is divinely inspired or written than there is to believe the same about the Popul Vuh or any of the Vedic or Buddhist scriptures I cited above.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 08:33 AM   #11
Alexrd
Senior Member
 
Alexrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 2,094
Current Game: Dragon Ball Z: Budokai 3 HD
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker View Post
There is no good reason to accept that biblical mythology is the word of a god. Particularly when it is so clearly flawed, full of bad advice, and indicative of an evil and degenerate deity (which, not coincidentally, appears to have all the characteristics of evil human degenerates who wipe out entire cultures and ethnic groups.
So clearly flawed and full of bad advice?!



Star Wars: In Concert - Lisbon - Some pictures of the exhibition accompanying the event.
Alexrd is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-27-2009, 12:18 AM   #12
Tommycat
>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,577
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Honestly, different people have different things that let them realize there is some form of afterlife. I have had several experiences with the supernatural. A few of which happened while I was an Atheist. My first experience could easily be explained away as trickery of perception. My second experience however defied explanation.

Those of you that live in Colorado Springs may be familiar with the Pikes Peak Community Center. I was performing a show there(with my band). I can't remember why they needed it, but they needed a ladder from the basement. I said, "Sure, why not? I'll go get it."

One of the people working there said to hold up and he would come with. and I responded with a little bravado that I could get it myself. It's only a ladder. He replied with, "I wouldn't go down there alone if I were you."

My immediate thought was, What is there a troll down there or what. But I proceeded down there myself. I got about 3/4 of the way down the hall and a sudden rush of fear hit me. I thought I heard a scream from a woman, and then things kinda got real dark. Now, keep in mind I didn't believe in ghosts, or anything of that nature. But what I saw and felt convinced me that something exists. It was a woman that screamed in my face and scratched my back. I felt it like it was a deep scratch across my back. When I let out a yell, the darkness went back to the lit hallway, and I was alone.

Now ordinarily I would have just chalked it up to losing my mind, or even gas buildup in the basement of the old building, but when my roadie came running down to check on me, he asked me what happened to my shirt. It had eight rips running from the center out, on my back.

I came up from the basement and the crew member looked at me and said, "You met her didn't ya."

Now I had not known this but apparently there was a nun that was killed(far more happened to her, but I won't go into details) down there back when the PPCC was the court house. That hallway used to connect the jailhouse to the courthouse.

Does that mean that the Christian God exists? No, but it was strong enough evidence for me that SOMETHING exists beyond death.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-27-2009, 12:23 AM   #13
obi
LFN Staff Emeritus
 
obi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Augusta GA
Posts: 6,893
Current Game: Game of life, yo
btw skin, it's 12:30 am here, so I've got to call it for the night, but I'll catch up with you in the morning. Go get some sleep! or food. or ......games.....or.....food.




Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?-Matthew 7:3-5
Living Water Revival

Me on Myspace

obi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2009, 11:49 PM   #14
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
No one ever did get around to the "good reasons" for believing in the Christian god. Are there none?


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 02:25 AM   #15
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker View Post
No one ever did get around to the "good reasons" for believing in the Christian god. Are there none?
Not quite exactly the same, but very similar to what happened here. It seems to be a reoccurring theme that when true believers are asked to present evidence for their arguments, none are presented.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 09:21 AM   #16
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,184
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker View Post
No one ever did get around to the "good reasons" for believing in the Christian god. Are there none?
To make him a happy being, and thus, make a further step to become truly happy yourself?

I mean, Buddha said: "One can be truly happy only if he makes other people truly happy."

^^


Ray Jones is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 12:01 AM   #17
Tommycat
>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,577
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Since I'm not Christian, I can't answer for them. However the problem you face is that some people are given evidence that proves the existence of the supernatural. My experience is only one of my experiences with supernatural entities. The majority of which happened because, as a skeptic, I refused to believe there was a danger or refused to believe in those stories. Some stories I heard only after my experiences. Nothing we can say or do would convince you that our experiences are real. You have to experience them for yourself.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 04:35 PM   #18
Q
The one who knocks
 
Q's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ABQ
Posts: 6,643
Current Game: Mowing down neos with my M60
LF Jester Forum Veteran Helpful! 
Uh, what's the point of thread, anyway? Anyone with a brain can tell that no one can provide an answer that will satisfy the OP, making this thread and several other similarly-themed ones seem like little more than thinly-disguised trolling expeditions.

Oh, wait: I think that I just answered my own question.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
Q is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 04:55 PM   #19
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
The point is that in other threads, debates and issues that are discussed and posited here and elsewhere, the attempted rationale for taking one side or another of an given argument is related to the belief in a personal god. Most often, in Western discourse, it's the belief in a Christian god.

My challenge is to posit what good reasons there are to believe in such a god. With these reasons not forthcoming, it would stand, therefore, that there are no good reasons for believing in a god. This conclusion then becomes a premise leading to the next conclusion which is belief in one or more gods is irrational.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 05:14 PM   #20
Q
The one who knocks
 
Q's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ABQ
Posts: 6,643
Current Game: Mowing down neos with my M60
LF Jester Forum Veteran Helpful! 
Well, I agree with you, there. It's quite irrational.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
Q is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 05:43 PM   #21
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,778
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Define the boundaries of what constitutes a "good" reason. Since it is your term (you use it multiple times, but set no parameters as to what constitutes a "good" reason) the burden is upon you to define what you mean. Qliveur is quite right, especially given the following:
Quote:
If you have a good reason to believe in such a god, please post it here. I will provide the rational response to the supernatural.
While I might be able to read between the lines (I'll presume you wish empirical evidence) of your statements, it would be most helpful to your victims, er I mean respondents, to know exactly what you want. I've gotta admit, that while people like you and achilles make claims toward agnosticism, your incessant and often condescending reduction of other people's beliefs to superstitions indicate you are not only atheists, but most likely even antitheistic. That's all nice and fine, but the disingenuity rings hollow after a time.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 06:05 PM   #22
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf View Post
Define the boundaries of what constitutes a "good" reason.
errm... a reason that's good.

Quote:
Since it is your term (you use it multiple times, but set no parameters as to what constitutes a "good" reason) the burden is upon you to define what you mean.
I don't think so. If I were using jargon or coining a term, I'd agree with you, but I purposely kept it simple and straightforward. "Good reason" is written in very plain English. I used no terminology which is ambiguous or subject to equivocation. Playing the "define the boundaries" role is to create obfuscation and a red herring, so I'll avoid semantical fallacies like this if you don't mind. Either you have a good reason for your beliefs or you don't.

Quote:
While I might be able to read between the lines (I'll presume you wish empirical evidence) of your statements, it would be most helpful to your victims, er I mean respondents, to know exactly what you want.
I'm asking for "good reason" and that's it. My assertion is that there are no good reasons to believe the Christian god exists. If I'm wrong, I'm asking respondents, which you apparently see as potential "victims," to correct me. If there are good reasons to believe in a god, I'll provide a rational response to the supernatural.

You seem to object to "supernatural," but I know no other term that is more accurate. I invite you to correct this as well. My response will be rational, even if it is to acknowledge or acquiesce to the reason. Why shouldn't it be?

Quote:
I've gotta admit, that while people like you and achilles make claims toward agnosticism, your incessant and often condescending reduction of other people's beliefs to superstitions indicate you are not only atheists, but most likely even antitheistic.
I don't think I've ever made my atheism or anti-theistic positions secret, so I don't know why it should surprise you. I'm an agnostic-atheist. I have several anti-theistic positions but I'm not one who hates those who are religious any more than I would hate the illiterate just because I have anti-illiteracy positions. Nor would I hate those afflicted with HIV/AIDS just because I'm opposed to unsafe sex.

Quote:
That's all nice and fine, but the disingenuity rings hollow after a time.
That's quite an accusation. I've certainly not desired to be perceived of as disingenuous so I'd appreciate some elucidation on this. Where, precisely, have I been disingenuous?


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 08:13 PM   #23
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,778
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker View Post
errm... a reason that's good. I don't think so. If I were using jargon or coining a term, I'd agree with you, but I purposely kept it simple and straightforward. "Good reason" is written in very plain English. I used no terminology which is ambiguous or subject to equivocation. Playing the "define the boundaries" role is to create obfuscation and a red herring, so I'll avoid semantical fallacies like this if you don't mind. Either you have a good reason for your beliefs or you don't. I'm asking for "good reason" and that's it. My assertion is that there are no good reasons to believe the Christian god exists. If I'm wrong, I'm asking respondents, which you apparently see as potential "victims," to correct me. If there are good reasons to believe in a god, I'll provide a rational response to the supernatural. You seem to object to "supernatural," but I know no other term that is more accurate. I invite you to correct this as well. My response will be rational, even if it is to acknowledge or acquiesce to the reason. Why shouldn't it be? I don't think I've ever made my atheism or anti-theistic positions secret, so I don't know why it should surprise you. I'm an agnostic-atheist. I have several anti-theistic positions but I'm not one who hates those who are religious any more than I would hate the illiterate just because I have anti-illiteracy positions. Nor would I hate those afflicted with HIV/AIDS just because I'm opposed to unsafe sex. That's quite an accusation. I've certainly not desired to be perceived of as disingenuous so I'd appreciate some elucidation on this. Where, precisely, have I been disingenuous?
Actually, maybe you won't recall this as it happened early on, but we actually covered ground on the agnostic-athiest subject. So, I was well aware of what you consider yourself. Also, never suggested you bore ill-will toward anyone, regardless of their philosophical leanings. Not sure how you jumped to that particular conclusion. Anti-theistic doesn't inherently mean you hate anyone who believes in gods, as I'm sure you must be well aware. Just because I'm against groups like ACT UP or even the ACLU doesn't mean that I hate gays or lawyers either.

Problem with using a "simple" word like good is that it is a very subjective term. As is pretty, beautiful, smelly, erotic, or even pornographic.

About "victims", relax, it was just a jibe (sorry if I didn't include a smiley). My point in asking you to define your term should be obvious. Also, I don't object to the term supernatural at all. It was the phrase as a whole that came across as little more than a dismissively arrogant statement.
I myself have even argued w/believers that the rejection of "God" does not axiomatically prove "His" existence, only dimisses the idea or concept and not an actual entity. So, what does "good" mean? You clearly have a baseline against which you are going to refer when shooting down other people's "good" reasons.

@achilles--I'd respond to your incoherent accusation, but why bother. I'm on your ignore list as I understand......


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

Last edited by Totenkopf; 04-10-2009 at 08:21 PM.
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 06:44 PM   #24
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
I've gotta admit, that while people like you and achilles make claims toward agnosticism, your incessant and often condescending reduction of other people's beliefs to superstitions indicate you are not only atheists, but most likely even antitheistic.
I see (via Skinwalker's reply) that my name has been invoked here.

Just to make sure that we're perfectly clear, I am anti-irrationalism. If you hold a belief that is irrational, then I am against that belief. If you can show how said belief isn't irrational, then there is no problem. Thus far, no one has been willing or able to demonstrate how theism is rational.

Trying to tie that to my own personal lack of belief would seem to indicate your own inability to understand the issue at hand. It would be akin to saying that because I'm skeptical of the claim that Elvis is alive, I hate people that listen to music. Perhaps your posts would have more relevance if you were able to frame your arguments in a context that had actual merit/validity.

Thanks for reading.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 08:23 PM   #25
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Again, good is a common English word and your insistence to "define" it is a red herring. I'll settle for whatever colloquial definition suits the respondent. If you're not interested in debating my assertion that there are no good reasons to believe in gods, please don't bother with the thread. If you'd prefer, I can start a new thread, splitting out your posts, so that you can discuss the nuances and esoteric meanings of "good."


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 03:51 PM   #26
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,184
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
god is a righteous and just being jay it's the people that make him look bad he gives a damn about religion and heaven and hell you know


Ray Jones is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 09:00 PM   #27
GarfieldJL
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,856
@ jmac, SkinWalker, and Achilles

For people claiming to be debating honestly you sure are fans of taking things out of context deliberately trying to prove a faulty argument. Heck this is what you routinely accuse me of doing (or claim I don't know what I'm talking about when I actually do)...
GarfieldJL is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 09:19 PM   #28
Det. Bart Lasiter
obama.png
 
Det. Bart Lasiter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: `(.)~
Posts: 7,997
Current Game: all
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
@ jmac, SkinWalker, and Achilles

For people claiming to be debating honestly you sure are fans of taking things out of context deliberately trying to prove a faulty argument. Heck this is what you routinely accuse me of doing (or claim I don't know what I'm talking about when I actually do)...
i picture you covering your ears and closing your eyes and yelling no no no no no no no are you doing this irl y/n


p.s. that doesn't excuse your ignoring the old testament because it has icky things



"No, Mama. You can bet your sweet ass and half a titty whoever put that hit on you already got the cops in their back pocket." ~Black Dynamite
Det. Bart Lasiter is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 09:40 PM   #29
GarfieldJL
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142 View Post
i picture you covering your ears and closing your eyes and yelling no no no no no no no are you doing this irl y/n
There you go again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
p.s. that doesn't excuse your ignoring the old testament because it has icky things
I'm sure you are also aware that the Old Testament is laid out in a way as though it were a collection of Historical writings such as who did what when, a lot of it didn't give out specific rules how to behave.
GarfieldJL is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 09:47 PM   #30
Det. Bart Lasiter
obama.png
 
Det. Bart Lasiter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: `(.)~
Posts: 7,997
Current Game: all
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
There you go again...



I'm sure you are also aware that the Old Testament is laid out in a way as though it were a collection of Historical writings such as who did what when, a lot of it didn't give out specific rules how to behave.
WOW GARFIELD THAT'S AMAZING I'M SO SORRY I EVER DOUBTED YOU HAIL JESUS



"No, Mama. You can bet your sweet ass and half a titty whoever put that hit on you already got the cops in their back pocket." ~Black Dynamite
Det. Bart Lasiter is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 09:05 PM   #31
Darth Avlectus
Any other dumb remarks?
 
Darth Avlectus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Driving a garbage truck
Posts: 4,228
Current Game: Soul Calibur 5
How about if that belief were all that somebody had left or else they might:
1) give up hope (in whatever situation)?
2) go completely errhm... postal?

Just curious.
Darth Avlectus is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 10:24 PM   #32
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
@ jmac, SkinWalker, and Achilles

For people claiming to be debating honestly you sure are fans of taking things out of context deliberately trying to prove a faulty argument. Heck this is what you routinely accuse me of doing (or claim I don't know what I'm talking about when I actually do)...
I've responded to irrational claims and implied assertions in this thread (including your demand for an explanation for the Exodus myth) at length. Obi began two threads which made an a priori assumption on the existence of his particular take on a god to which he objected to any critical inquiry or challenge. I began this thread to be that challenge. And for my willingness to provide at-length, detailed rebuttals, I get either silence from someone who claimed he could answer critics; undereducated assumptions from someone who thinks there are chariot wheels at the bottom of the red sea that "prove" exodus; and semantical red herrings about what one means about "good reason."

So forgive me if I don't believe you really have a argument or rebuttal, but I'm curious what it is, precisely, that I've taken out of context. Rather than make general, unspecified and spurious assertions, why not be specific enough to maintain intelligent discourse? Is there no room in your postings here at the Senate for an actual, rational discussion as opposed to hyperbole and ideological rhetoric?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
How about if that belief were all that somebody had left or else they might:
1) give up hope (in whatever situation)?
2) go completely errhm... postal?

Just curious.
That's a legitimate question in my opinion.

My answer would be: how is a bad argument okay? If believing Elvis is alive and well but in hiding on the International Space Station provides someone with comfort, I say good for them. As long as they aren't willing to set public policy or demanding others to accept their Elvis beliefs, they're fine believing whatever they like. I'll make them a peanut-butter and banana sandwich.

But if your suggesting that the only thing keeping someone from "going postal" is a belief in the supernatural, I'd tell you this is a fuse that's burning regardless. How many people go "postal" each year who think their god whispered instructions in their ear?


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 11:16 PM   #33
GarfieldJL
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker View Post
I've responded to irrational claims and implied assertions in this thread (including your demand for an explanation for the Exodus myth) at length. Obi began two threads which made an a priori assumption on the existence of his particular take on a god to which he objected to any critical inquiry or challenge. I began this thread to be that challenge. And for my willingness to provide at-length, detailed rebuttals, I get either silence from someone who claimed he could answer critics; undereducated assumptions from someone who thinks there are chariot wheels at the bottom of the red sea that "prove" exodus; and semantical red herrings about what one means about "good reason."
And you completely ignored the fact I pointed out that the Egyptians had a tendency to destroy records if it was stuff they wanted to bury, look at what all they destroyed that recorded the existence of whom Tutanakamen. (sp?)

You know how embarassing losing a huge portion of the army would be? It would only make sense for them to destroy records of that having happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
So forgive me if I don't believe you really have a argument or rebuttal, but I'm curious what it is, precisely, that I've taken out of context. Rather than make general, unspecified and spurious assertions, why not be specific enough to maintain intelligent discourse? Is there no room in your postings here at the Senate for an actual, rational discussion as opposed to hyperbole and ideological rhetoric?
I could say the same to you, because you've spewed just as much ideological rhetoric, an atheist can be an ideologue just as much as a religious person can be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
My answer would be: how is a bad argument okay? If believing Elvis is alive and well but in hiding on the International Space Station provides someone with comfort, I say good for them. As long as they aren't willing to set public policy or demanding others to accept their Elvis beliefs, they're fine believing whatever they like. I'll make them a peanut-butter and banana sandwich.
To throw it back in your face the experts said the sound barrier could never be broken, and it was broken. There are some unusual things that have happened in history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
But if your suggesting that the only thing keeping someone from "going postal" is a belief in the supernatural, I'd tell you this is a fuse that's burning regardless. How many people go "postal" each year who think their god whispered instructions in their ear?
Why is it that supposedly Atheists have a higher incidence of depression?
GarfieldJL is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 12:23 AM   #34
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
And you completely ignored the fact I pointed out that the Egyptians had a tendency to destroy records if it was stuff they wanted to bury, look at what all they destroyed that recorded the existence of whom Tutanakamen. (sp?)
You clearly didn't read my whole post. You're making yourself look silly.

Quote:
I could say the same to you, because you've spewed just as much ideological rhetoric, an atheist can be an ideologue just as much as a religious person can be.
You could try to say the same. But saying something doesn't necessarily make it so. What, specifically, do you claim of my statements is "ideological rhetoric?" It looks more as if you are simply projecting.

Quote:
To throw it back in your face the experts said the sound barrier could never be broken, and it was broken. There are some unusual things that have happened in history.
An argument from ignorance. Yet another logical fallacy in your attempts to participate in a discussion. You're clearly interested only in rhetoric and not discussion. Again, I've provided some very lengthy and thought-filled posts on several points -yours included. All I get in return is, "oh, yeah!?"

Quote:
Why is it that supposedly Atheists have a higher incidence of depression?
This is a red herring. Please start a new thread on this assertion and we'll debate it. You should begin by citing a peer-reviewed source that states this so we can have primary source(s) to work with. In this thread, however, its off-topic. I can appreciate this is perhaps a typical tactic for you, but it won't work here. Either participate in intelligent discourse or stick to your ideological rhetoric in your political threads.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 03:39 PM   #35
mur'phon
Whale eating vegetarian
 
mur'phon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southier than thou
Posts: 1,537
Forum Veteran 
Of course it is possible, I believe Kyp thought you meant that God was an answer to the question "where did it all come from". I take the stance of I don't know, but since God "comming out of nothing"/simply existing and then creating the universe is entierly unsuported by evidence, I have little reason to believe that he/she/it/they did.
mur'phon is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-13-2009, 07:12 AM   #36
Alexrd
Senior Member
 
Alexrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 2,094
Current Game: Dragon Ball Z: Budokai 3 HD
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
So, you are talking about the OT god. The Christian god is from the NT which appeared as the image of His son, Jesus Christ (therefore Christian, the one who follow the teachings of Christ). When you talk about the Christian god you should focus more on the NT. WHy you discharged the NT and only talked about the OT?
Alexrd is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-13-2009, 08:55 PM   #37
Det. Bart Lasiter
obama.png
 
Det. Bart Lasiter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: `(.)~
Posts: 7,997
Current Game: all
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexrdias View Post
So, you are talking about the OT god. The Christian god is from the NT which appeared as the image of His son, Jesus Christ (therefore Christian, the one who follow the teachings of Christ). When you talk about the Christian god you should focus more on the NT. WHy you discharged the NT and only talked about the OT?
even if we ignore the first half of the bible (which is a pretty **** argument) the new testament is still pretty ****ty, though a lot of the torture and such is much more theoretical than the stuff in the old testament, which the new testament only adds onto anyway.



"No, Mama. You can bet your sweet ass and half a titty whoever put that hit on you already got the cops in their back pocket." ~Black Dynamite
Det. Bart Lasiter is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 01:20 AM   #38
Darth Avlectus
Any other dumb remarks?
 
Darth Avlectus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Driving a garbage truck
Posts: 4,228
Current Game: Soul Calibur 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker View Post
That's a legitimate question in my opinion.
Good to see I'm getting somewhere.

Quote:
My answer would be: how is a bad argument okay? If believing Elvis is alive and well but in hiding on the International Space Station provides someone with comfort, I say good for them. As long as they aren't willing to set public policy or demanding others to accept their Elvis beliefs, they're fine believing whatever they like. I'll make them a peanut-butter and banana sandwich.
Uhh, well, okay.

I guess I had in mind more situations that seem a bit desparate or destitute.
Like dire conditions which one had strong chances of might not surviving and thus required the person or persons to "hold on". While one could argue that this is more of train of thought than theism, I have seen indiscriminant spiritualists (specifically of the martial arts variety) who would say that it is a good way to think of things if it helps to achieve it.

In short, something that gets them through.

Quote:
But if your suggesting that the only thing keeping someone from "going postal" is a belief in the supernatural, I'd tell you this is a fuse that's burning regardless. How many people go "postal" each year who think their god whispered instructions in their ear?
I guess to shape things a bit, it would require a person that was sane to begin with. So, similarly to above, "getting through it" but on a more constant basis as opposed to a dire situation. Like in a constantly stressful job where walking away isn't a viable solution. In other words "someone's gotta do it" as it were. It would be that of a cleansing or mantra ...of sorts... Not a mere stress relief, mind you. But done in regiments much more regularly than the above example.

If people don't care enough to intellectualize, and they have a belief system keeping them good and away from underhanded behavior (or just flat going on a rampage)...why screw up a good thing bashing it? There is no reason to. (Though I see you do seem to have indicated a ...reasonable compromise)

Don't know if you'd count it as a good reason, though. A social engineer might for the reason of stability.

However, if the person is already bat-****, I don't know of any real solution to that problem. It begs several humanitarian issues I'm not entirely sure relate to this thread.


"I cant see S***! --YOU GO TO HELL!" --Tourettes guy
Darth Avlectus is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 10:01 PM   #39
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
@ jmac, SkinWalker, and Achilles

For people claiming to be debating honestly you sure are fans of taking things out of context deliberately trying to prove a faulty argument. Heck this is what you routinely accuse me of doing (or claim I don't know what I'm talking about when I actually do)...
You are aware that saying something does it make it true right? Oh wait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
How about if that belief were all that somebody had left or else they might:
1) give up hope (in whatever situation)?
2) go completely errhm... postal?

Just curious.
That's a good reason?
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 12:26 AM   #40
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,778
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Frankly Skin, there's nothing remotely red herring about asking you to flesh out your request. All the more so as I never contended there could be a "good" reason one way or another. It seems that you are hypersensitive to people asking you questions while you seek to do same to them. It's ashame you think yourself and your arguments to be above scrutiny. All you have to do is spell out your conditions of what constitutes a "legitimate" reason. How you feel that threatens your line of inquiry, ney challenge, is really beyond reason. You set yourself up in your post as judge, jury and executioner and blanch when someone asks you to clearly explain the ground rules by which you will render your "rulings".


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > JediKnight Series > Community > Senate Chambers > What good reason is there to believe the Christian God exists? [The Debate Thread]

Tags
debate, god, religion, superstition

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:46 PM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.