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Old 07-17-2009, 12:27 AM   #1
kipperthefrog
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Do violent video games corrupt our youth?

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I wouldn't insult a kid's intellegence by claiming that he can't tell video games from real life. As for the study that claims the video game kids are more aggresive, it could be that the kids are frustrated due to the dfficulty of the games or hyped up by spending too much time on them.


90% of U.S. kids 8-16 are plaing video games, and theres been only a handfull of school shooters. plus, there were school shootings before video games were invented. How does Jack Thompson's "experts" explain that?


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Old 07-17-2009, 02:32 AM   #2
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Well, if you watched BULL****!, Penn & Teller also reveal that the worst case of school violence preceded vid games by several decades and didn't involve guns, but explosives. Guess people gotta bitch about something.


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Old 07-17-2009, 03:00 AM   #3
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There is good reason it isn't sold to kids.

Having said that, none of this stuff has ever caused someone to "go over the edge" so to speak. Not if they weren't already likely to do so in the first place. So it depends on mental well being, as well as parental guidance. If the kid goes and kills because of VGs or music, the kid already has problems which should be (or have been if in past tense) taken care of.


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Old 07-17-2009, 08:12 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
There is good reason it isn't sold to kids.
what is that good reason?


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Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
Having said that, none of this stuff has ever caused someone to "go over the edge" so to speak. Not if they weren't already likely to do so in the first place. So it depends on mental well being, as well as parental guidance. If the kid goes and kills because of VGs or music, the kid already has problems which should be (or have been if in past tense) taken care of.
Then you are in agreement with me.


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Old 07-18-2009, 02:23 AM   #5
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what is that good reason?
While I'm not censorist, I do believe in parental moderation/mediation. You'll eventually have to have those talks with your kids, but exposing them to prostitution, beatdowns, robbery car jacking, and crime while they're too young isn't exactly the way to go.

Do you really want junior being sent home in the middle of the day and having to meet with an irate principal because he's slamming other kids' heads in doors and wisecracking to a teacher about "plinking" a hooker in the car he stole form her?
--I think you get the point: only when you believe they are ready and can handle it responsibly.

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Then you are in agreement with me.
Yeah, I am. And furthermore I think parents who completely blame VGs and rock music on their child's bad behavior need to take a look at themselves. Freedoms have responsibility, no?

If you've done your part as a parent and your kid is still acting up because of it, then take it away. If you haven't...that's where it starts. That's what I have observed from parents whose kids are exposed to that stuff, but they are not little monsters for it.


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Old 07-17-2009, 03:01 AM   #6
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Kipper,

The problem with these kinds of studies is that the methodology is typically either flawed or garbage. In order to establish a causal relationship, you have to be able to ratcheted down every variable except the one your testing for.

So all these kids play violent video games. Do they also watch violent movies? Television? What are their dietary habits? How much exercise are they getting? What are their parents like?

It is entirely possible that the video games are the culprit (I highly doubt it, but it is possible). However unless you can rule out every other possible cause, you can't say with any certainty that this is it.

Since the article talks about the study but offers only vague details about the methodology, it's impossible to tell if the research is even remotely valid. It sounds as though you're pretty skeptical of their findings as well
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Old 07-17-2009, 10:11 AM   #7
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Do violent video games corrupt our youth?

No.

[/thread]

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Old 08-18-2009, 09:20 PM   #8
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Do violent video games corrupt our youth?

No.

[/thread]

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Ditto


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Old 07-17-2009, 03:38 PM   #9
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It is easier to blame video games, television, movies, music, comic books… than to blame the problems with society and parenting.


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Old 07-18-2009, 08:03 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
No.

[/thread]
[/wrong]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
It is easier to blame video games, television, movies, music, comic books… than to blame the problems with society and parenting.

So, video games, television, movies, music, comic books, etc, are not part of our society, and do in no way carry a potential to be problematic? Hm. Hm Hm.


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Old 07-18-2009, 08:17 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
[/wrong]
So, Rayston, you believe that video games are to blame for the children who perform school shootings, etc?

Rather than parenting or environment?

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Old 07-18-2009, 11:22 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
So, video games, television, movies, music, comic books, etc, are not part of our society, and do in no way carry a potential to be problematic? Hm. Hm Hm.
Yes, but there is a system and there has always been a system in place to keep unwanted materials out of children’s hands and control the amount unwanted material a child is exposed to. It is called parenting and has nothing to do with the government control.

It is just easier for the parents to use these mediums as a means of surrogate babysitter. This is just hideous to comprehend. Parents need to be the one’s that monitor what their child is involved in. They need to understand their child’s like and dislikes, they need to understand his/her fears and dreams. Parents just need to play the larger role in their own child’s development and not depend on media outlets including game developers to protect their child. After all, since we are all different, we should not depend on a stranger to know if something is appropriate for little Johnny, his parents should know him well enough to make that decision.


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Old 07-19-2009, 06:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Yes, but there is a system and there has always been a system in place to keep unwanted materials out of children’s hands and control the amount unwanted material a child is exposed to. It is called parenting and has nothing to do with the government control.
Very true.

Quote:
It is just easier for the parents to use these mediums as a means of surrogate babysitter. This is just hideous to comprehend. Parents need to be the one’s that monitor what their child is involved in. They need to understand their child’s like and dislikes, they need to understand his/her fears and dreams. Parents just need to play the larger role in their own child’s development and not depend on media outlets including game developers to protect their child. After all, since we are all different, we should not depend on a stranger to know if something is appropriate for little Johnny, his parents should know him well enough to make that decision.
Sad but also very true. And given the kinds of messages kids are bombarded with these days, parents' jobs are that much harder, but perhaps more important.


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Old 07-30-2009, 11:36 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Yes, but there is a system and there has always been a system in place to keep unwanted materials out of children’s hands and control the amount unwanted material a child is exposed to. It is called parenting and has nothing to do with the government control.

It is just easier for the parents to use these mediums as a means of surrogate babysitter. This is just hideous to comprehend. Parents need to be the one’s that monitor what their child is involved in. They need to understand their child’s like and dislikes, they need to understand his/her fears and dreams. Parents just need to play the larger role in their own child’s development and not depend on media outlets including game developers to protect their child. After all, since we are all different, we should not depend on a stranger to know if something is appropriate for little Johnny, his parents should know him well enough to make that decision.
Don't get me wrong, you are absolutely correct about parents and their responsibilities. That said, I honestly would prefer if there was some kind of parents licence in some cases, actually.

But parents cannot teach 'society' to their kids. They can teach moral values, social behaviour, language, any kind of skill, all that jazz, yes. Parents can prepare their kids for many, many things. But the fun thing about offspring is, there's a certain dynamic you cannot control. Like you can say a thousand times don't touch this it is hot, and you can take care like hell, one out of those fifty little creatures will touch it. There are influences you cannot control. On the playground, in the kindergarten, at school. My kids are at the kindergarten 5 days a week for about 6 hours each day. I have no absolute control about what they eat and when, if they take a nap after lunch or what words they hear or say. This is where influence by anyone but the parent side begins.

I don't blame or bitch, I just say that there's a long list of things which form a human character, and movies and games, media (containing whatever material) in general are part of it, and to me it sounds not to far fetched when I say violence (and anything else for that matter) in the media gives ideals and ideas to the young people, which might not always be 'caught' ideally by the parents.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity
Having said that, even as much a part of society and as influential as they are, their effects can be effectively supervised and negated regarding child development.
Yeah, you and me, we both would like this to be the truth.


Quote:
So while it is everywhere in our society, there is a choice to turn away.
Turning away is a *bad* idea, really. Eventually you'll have to cope with everything that does not fit into your parental plan. Otherwise you will have problems.


Quote:
It is but the environment have varying degrees relative to source of influence. People eventually realize "hey, these games might be fun but I'm not really going anywhere in my life" and decide to get up and get out.
Odd, that's exactly what some school shooter's thoughts might have been...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
This is an attempt to shift the burden of proof. If someone wants to argue that violent games do have an effect, I'm perfectly willing to listen to whatever they have to say (in fact, I'm quite interested in what a legitimate study would show). However it is on the parties making the claim that there is an effect to show what that effect is. Otherwise, we're just guessing.
So, you'd argue that when you do things over and over again, that does not has any effect at all? That'd make me wonder what any kind of training is for, then. Wait, you mean it only works for non-violent stuff? Ah,.. then it makes sense.


Quote:
Which would seem to posit that there is some benefit to these devices (???). Do you have a source for this?
Oh, I said benefit? Oop.


Quote:
If I play games and my friends play games, that makes us "gamers", not "mass murders".
You seem not to fit into the scheme of "our youth", actually.


Quote:
Even if we pile on violence in TV, movies, music, etc, I think we have to admit that a lot of this violence is situational.
And, that makes a difference exactly how?


Quote:
I think seeing your dad beat your mom IRL one time is going to be a lot more damaging than a million hours of "shooting" pixels shaped like zombies.
And luckily enough, there's nothing but zombie and alien shooters available on the market, too!!


Quote:
One of these situations is modeling behavior while the other is clearly fantasy.
And luckily enough, never do especially young people never mix up reality and fantasy ever as well!!


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Old 07-30-2009, 05:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
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So, you'd argue that when you do things over and over again, that does not has any effect at all? That'd make me wonder what any kind of training is for, then. Wait, you mean it only works for non-violent stuff? Ah,.. then it makes sense.
Because it seems you need help

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Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
You seem not to fit into the scheme of "our youth", actually.
Believe it or not, I didn't hatch from an egg already at my current age.

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Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
And, that makes a difference exactly how?
Because shootin' biotches wit yo AK would seem to only have context if you have an AK. Grabbin' a perp by the collar and shoving him up against a cop car would probably only have context if I had a perp (and a cop car).

Of course, I'm only speculating...just as you are. I think the difference here is that I realize it and you don't.

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And luckily enough, there's nothing but zombie and alien shooters available on the market, too!!
Way to skirt past the point there, Rayston.

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Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
And luckily enough, never do especially young people never mix up reality and fantasy ever as well!!
Indeed they sometimes do. Hence why I think we're seeing so much commentary on the importance of active participation on the part of parents.
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:34 PM   #16
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But parents cannot teach 'society' to their kids.
They can teach how to respond to universal issues that do come up.

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Originally Posted by RayJ
They can teach moral values, social behaviour, language, any kind of skill, all that jazz, yes. Parents can prepare their kids for many, many things. But the fun thing about offspring is, there's a certain dynamic you cannot control. Like you can say a thousand times don't touch this it is hot, and you can take care like hell, one out of those fifty little creatures will touch it. There are influences you cannot control.
That doesn't mean you don't try to set the child straight when its behavior is incorrect. At this point, the parents must take a proactive role in making sure the child knows enough reasoning of actions and their consequences which follows in order to tell the good choices from the bad; responsible from irresponsible. It may be only basic logic, but it teaches the kids to reason because you will not always be there.

Teaching a kid to "consider a source for what it is" goes a long way for when you're not there as a parent. Longer way than I think you are willing to give credit. No, you can't be there all the time, hoever you can leave a lasting impression on your child in its youth so that it will make responsible decisions as it gets older.

Sometimes it is inevitable the offspring will have to learn the hard way. It's up to the parent to make sure that the hard stuff isn't something deadly, or of lifelong detriment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
I don't blame or bitch, I just say that there's a long list of things which form a human character, and movies and games, media (containing whatever material) in general are part of it, and to me it sounds not to far fetched when I say violence (and anything else for that matter) in the media gives ideals and ideas to the young people, which might not always be 'caught' ideally by the parents.
You might not be able to prevent all incidences, however, you can *manage* the ones that do come up. No child is clever enough to hide these influences completely from a parent who truly cares. Also, you can teach trust-worthiness.

On the other side of it, there is a certain openness needed if you are to minimize the rebelliousness of the offspring at a certain age. To make sure their complacency and resistance to you is not higher than your possible reach as a parent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by what I said earlier
Having said that, even as much a part of society and as influential as they are, their effects can be effectively supervised and negated regarding child development.
Yeah, you and me, we both would like this to be the truth.
Like it to be the truth? It is a part of society, not society on the whole. Its effects _can_ be negated and managed like any other external medium which requires being acted upon in order to have any effect. That doesn't mean parents have absolute control or that a child won't try to hide things; if you're vigilant though, then not much will get by you.

I'm not exactly sure what's the deal with the turn of phrase--would you care to explain what you meant by that???

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by myself
OK, think of it like anything else (alcohol, firearms, etc.): it requires external influence in the first place for it to even have an effect. You already have a grasp of that. You have a point, yes they do have an effect. While it is ever-pervasive, it does not preclude one (or ones as in a family) from making decisions. So while it is everywhere in our society, there is a choice to turn away.
Turning away is a *bad* idea, really. Eventually you'll have to cope with everything that does not fit into your parental plan. Otherwise you will have problems.
Clever, you can dance around the semantics pin.

Since you seem to need it spelled out to you, I shall do it, lest you misinterpret what I said again. No, I was not at all saying that the parents should turn away from doing their job.

The "choice to turn away" is related usage of the object of indulgence.
Idea of:
situation; The object is doing harm?
solution; *Stop* using it, then.

Of course in this situation, we have kids who wouldn't choose to stop indulging (playing), so it is up to the parents to pry their childrens' hands from the controllers/keyboards/etc. when enough is enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
Odd, that's exactly what some school shooter's thoughts might have been...
Can you spell P A R A N O I A ?

Firstly you weren't in the shooter's head--how would you know that? Did you actually know someone who was a school shooter?

Secondly I think you are making Columbine out to be... much more commonplace than it actually is/was.

So they were a couple kids who claimed they were bad souls? If the individual is a "bad soul" then all you can really do is your absolute best as a parent in that situation.

Can you look at your kindergarten aged kids and *really* see another Columbine in their future (perpetrated by them) for sure? Hmm?

I grew up in an adverse environment. I was an angry child. I got in nasty fights right on up to adulthood. Despite it all, though, I just really wanted to be who I was and came to realize if other people are ********ed up--that is *their* problem. Not mine. My parents had no control over how nasty other kids were to me. I suppose if it got too nasty they could have intervened and taken me out of the system. Found some alternative education.

Consider that an option if you believe the school system your children go to is not adequate, and in your judgment doing real harm. You'll find a way, I've no doubt of it given the concern you've already shown.

Besides, If I were just like those two columbine students, we wouldn't be talking. We'll just leave it at that.
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Old 07-19-2009, 07:24 AM   #17
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However, if you ask whether violent games have an effect on children, then seriously, how could they not?
This is an attempt to shift the burden of proof. If someone wants to argue that violent games do have an effect, I'm perfectly willing to listen to whatever they have to say (in fact, I'm quite interested in what a legitimate study would show). However it is on the parties making the claim that there is an effect to show what that effect is. Otherwise, we're just guessing.

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Or why would you think is there a huge industry shoving learning computers and learning games/programs down our throats?
Which would seem to posit that there is some benefit to these devices (???). Do you have a source for this?

I think we're all aware that companies sometimes market products that consumers belief have some utility but actually don't (how much money does homeopathy rake in every year?).

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Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
So, video games, television, movies, music, comic books, etc, are not part of our society, and do in no way carry a potential to be problematic? Hm. Hm Hm.
Well sure. But I'm not sure what this is supposed to show us.

If I play games and my friends play games, that makes us "gamers", not "mass murders". Even if we pile on violence in TV, movies, music, etc, I think we have to admit that a lot of this violence is situational. I think seeing your dad beat your mom IRL one time is going to be a lot more damaging than a million hours of "shooting" pixels shaped like zombies. One of these situations is modeling behavior while the other is clearly fantasy.
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Old 07-19-2009, 09:39 PM   #18
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So, video games, television, movies, music, comic books, etc, are not part of our society, and do in no way carry a potential to be problematic? Hm. Hm Hm.
They're a part of it, however they are little more than entertainment and influences, which even the most primitive rational minds realize (not that I'm calling *you* primitive mind you, just saying). These should not be a primary thing for children when growing up--otherwise you will have problems.

They do indeed carry potential to be problematic (I don't think anyone here is debating that point) and yes they are a part of society or else we wouldn't all be HERE in a Star Wars site discussing this. Having said that, even as much a part of society and as influential as they are, their effects can be effectively supervised and negated regarding child development. That falls on the parents' shoulders because it does not preclude responsible decision making or parenting.

Quote:
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No, the games alone are not to blame. I mean, how to blame a game anyway. However, if you ask whether violent games have an effect on children, then seriously, how could they not? Or why would you think is there a huge industry shoving learning computers and learning games/programs down our throats?
OK, think of it like anything else (alcohol, firearms, etc.): it requires external influence in the first place for it to even have an effect. You already have a grasp of that. You have a point, yes they do have an effect. While it is ever-pervasive, it does not preclude one (or ones as in a family) from making decisions. So while it is everywhere in our society, there is a choice to turn away.


Frankly I think the gaming industry is running out of creative ideas like the TV industry did some time back. Games are beginning to take a turn towards major suckage and it'll be in a lull for a time. Why do you think there are so many re-hashes, reviews, and complaints that new games suck lately? I'd think they can't be alluring and all encompassing forever. I would actually be interested in what merited studies have to say about this.

Quote:
And say, what is this environment? *brevity*
It is but the environment have varying degrees relative to source of influence. People eventually realize "hey, these games might be fun but I'm not really going anywhere in my life" and decide to get up and get out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Yes, but there is a system and there has always been a system in place to keep unwanted materials out of children’s hands and control the amount unwanted material a child is exposed to. It is called parenting and has nothing to do with the government control.
Thirded to this notion.


Quote:
It is just easier for the parents to use these mediums as a means of surrogate babysitter. This is just hideous to comprehend.
I've seen families with parents who just don't care and leave it all to the babysitters and nannies. Dysfunctional. I shudder to think what will happen if/when the family starts leaving it to the VG systems.

Quote:
Parents need to be the one’s that monitor what their child is involved in. They need to understand their child’s like and dislikes, they need to understand his/her fears and dreams. Parents just need to play the larger role in their own child’s development and not depend on media outlets including game developers to protect their child. After all, since we are all different, we should not depend on a stranger to know if something is appropriate for little Johnny, his parents should know him well enough to make that decision.
QFT.

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Originally Posted by Totenkopf View Post
And given the kinds of messages kids are bombarded with these days, parents' jobs are that much harder, but perhaps more important.
Yes. I think what should be dealt with is actually the bombardment issue. Since direct intervention seems to be interpreted as an attack on free market, it think it'll have to be dealt with by other means.

Speculation: We're coming up on a down trend of VG productions. During this period we may perhaps be seeing a certain number of our society become resistant to the influence and effects of video games, and an outright rejection to the VG culture in some cases. (I only wish I had data to support this!) Thoughts?


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Old 07-18-2009, 08:46 AM   #19
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No, the games alone are not to blame. I mean, how to blame a game anyway. However, if you ask whether violent games have an effect on children, then seriously, how could they not? Or why would you think is there a huge industry shoving learning computers and learning games/programs down our throats?

And say, what is this environment? Your parents, what they teach you, what you see them doing? Friends you hang out with, their activities? Something like school, people at school? Your activities there? What you do in your freetime? Like, reading a book? Talking to people? Playing a game? Isn't this all the environment somehow?


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Old 08-10-2009, 07:18 PM   #20
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Trying to keep video games out of the hands of children is becoming increasingly difficult as games become easier to obtain. When I was a kid, there were dozens of games available on Nintendo, PC, and a few on the MAC. Now there are literally thousands of them available at very cheap prices as they become obsolete. I have had only Apple-based video games all my life, so I hadn't had many options compared to those who had an N64, Sega, gamecube, playstation I,II,III, xbox (360)

The internet had become a source of easily-obtainable and free games. It allowed for online enhancement for getting game platforms, games to go with them, the fact that video games had become more common. They are highly addictive, widely available, and relatively cheap in comparison to what you could get with your money.

I only spent about $20 for KOTOR I and II, and much less for JA and JK II. I have no idea how many hours of entertainment I got from them, but it was worth it to me. In terms of how many hours I lost from my life because of them... that's another matter. The idea of restricting video games from children isn't really a realistic solution because there are now so many video game platforms and so many games out there that children will figure a way past parent supervision.
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Old 08-12-2009, 02:02 PM   #21
Te Je'karta Mand'alor
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violant games do not corrupt my youth! so die!!!!!

i've never been stressed out or angry from video games
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:50 AM   #22
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And I agree that these are all possibilities.

I'm not ready to accept that there is a causal relationship, because thus far, I've yet to see any conclusive studies which can establish one. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I'm also not going to jump on the bandwagon.

I think the point was raised earlier that children sometimes have difficulty distinguishing between fantasy and reality, which I think was the gist of your argument here. I think this is something that kids with active parental figures will overcome very quickly, but even those without will come to grips with in time. Otherwise, I think we'd see a lot more accidental deaths involving kids who inadvertently committed suicide after jumping from large trees, thinking they could fly.
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Old 08-20-2009, 10:05 AM   #23
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Okay, that's something which I would say is very convincing.

The comparison to gaming to gambling really caught my attention, because 15% of children acting like an addiction makes for some very undesirable consequences. It may not exactly be violence, but lower grades, less social activities, and other things that come from losing hours a day playing. That is reason enough to think it's bad for children to have unrestricted limits to how much they can play.

Video games are bad because they are addicting enough to draw people's attention from real life. You can't really dictate people to act or not to, but parents should take more of an active role to reduce how much their children play, such as incentives. If their child doesn't make at least a C, they would take away the game until they improve their grade. That would not exactly stop their addiction, but it would be something that parents can do to make it harder for their kids to play all the time and kill their grades.

Gaming is addicting like gambling, but there are many more kids who game that it's worrisome. I can't point to games, but I do know that the average grade in my high school has diminished with each year over the last five or six classes. That's not a clear answer that it's video games, but I really can't think of much else that could cause such a drop in grades. I have considered the other possible causes as well, but the average number of hours they work, social status, and teacher resources have all been about the same. The majority of the failed students had x-boxes and playstations. Many who graduated also did, and many females who failed didn't. This is only anecdotal evidence.
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Old 08-20-2009, 11:27 AM   #24
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My apologies, Ray. When you said that video games had "some effect" I made the mistake of assuming that you meant that within the context of the discussion. I did not realize that you were trying to derail the thread with off-topic stuff about video game addiction.

Thanks for the links.
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Old 08-20-2009, 05:33 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
My apologies, Ray. When you said that video games had "some effect" I made the mistake of assuming that you meant that within the context of the discussion.
Your question was what kind of effect I was referring to when I said I think video games do have an effect on people. It has been answered.

Also, the topic of this thread is "Do violent video games corrupt our youth?" -- So, if so and so much young people show symptoms of an addiction to video games it's not really that much of a drift to catch to say these young people are already corrupted by video games. Especially when you'd read this part of my post:

"One of the primary concerns with violence in video games is that gaming is not passive. In order to play and win, the player has to be the aggressor. Rather than watching violence, as he might do on television, he's committing the violent acts. Most researchers acknowledge that this kind of active participation affects a person's thought patterns, at least in the short term.

Another factor that concerns both researchers and parents is that violence in video games is often rewarded rather than punished. In army and sniper games, players "level up" based in part on how many people they kill. If played frequently enough, games like this can skew a young person's perception of violence and its consequences."


So much for the context of this discussion.


Quote:
I did not realize that you were trying to derail the thread with off-topic stuff about video game addiction.
Great. Really great. I forgot to post this with the list of your favourite "how do I weasel around having to respond to posts I really don't like to answer" tactics.


Quote:
Thanks for the links.
No, thank you.



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Old 08-20-2009, 10:20 PM   #26
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I think that video game addiction does have some impact on violent tendencies. I don't know if this is aimed at showing statistics that video game players are more likely to be violent, or that they are 'corruptive.' I can think of many people who play video games all the time, but they are just underachievers. It's only when they fail school and would struggle to get by when the addiction would lead to them becoming desperate.

But that might happen because parents don't enforce their children as much, or poor education standards, or many other things besides video games.
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