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Old 09-07-2010, 10:33 PM   #1
Darth333
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New PC...recommendation?

Well I guess it's this time where the faithful old machine and the numerous tweaks and upgrades just need a replacement...

I used to check comp news every week but I have failed to do so in the past few years or so and have fallen way behind in terms of novelty...

So, what could you recommend for a new PC? (budget: ideally +-1.5 -2K $CAD without monitor, but it is stretchable/shrinkable, depending on value as it is sometimes pointless to put additional money in a PC - like dual graphics cards a few years ago: replacing a single high end card once in a while was more economic and offered better performance in the long run than dual cards -).

Nice overclocking capability is also appreciated...

Please no pre-built PC...building it is part of the phun!

Or should I simply wait a little? (any noteworthy upcoming novelties?)

===================

I am also looking for a TV (gave my big box to an old aunt). I currently have a more than decent 24" monitor but I'd like to add a 40-52" TV as well ( with wireless capability, if possible), any recommendations?
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Old 09-08-2010, 01:07 AM   #2
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(NOTE: I wasn't sure whether your post meant you were anti-SLI in general, or just when it's not worth it. If the latter, consider getting 2 of these instead of the 480. Cheaper, and from the benchmarks I've seen on multiple sites, they scale really well and beat out the 480 in performance.)

Just a possible build I kicked together on Newegg Canada (so that prices would be in $CAD). If you want to overclock, it would probably be best to add on some extra CPU cooling equipment and perhaps look into liquid cooling (although I can attest that the HAF has very nice airflow stock). I tried to get good prices for each component, but didn't go for anything with less than 4 eggs average rating (what good is a cheap part if it explodes the expensive ones?). I also assumed that you would reuse mouse, keyboard, speakers from your old machine, since those are often still usable. Even with all extra things though, it should still fall underneath 2000$CAD.



I haven't kept up on the current tech rumors, so I don't know if anything especially big is coming up. I don't think so, but I'm not certain.



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Old 09-09-2010, 12:17 AM   #3
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right now is a great market for computers. you can get some seriously awesome hardware for a great price. i've seen multiple PC gaming sites build great PC's for really low prices, and some of those PC's were built for as low as $400 (USD).

CPU's haven't been really hot so far this year other than a couple of new hex-core CPU's from both AMD and Intel. as it has trended for the past couple of years, Intel is more powerful while AMD is more affordable.

GPU's, on the other hand, have been really hot this year (no pun intended). AMD has expanded on their DX11-based Radeon 5000 series to round out their portfolio while Nvidia has been playing catch-up with their GTX 400 series. Nvidia sports the fastest hardware, but its not that much of an advantage. think of it more as the difference between the GeForce 7000 series and the Radeon X1000 series. its pretty neck and neck across the board in terms of pricing and performance. the major difference is that Nvidia is still rolling out their new series while AMD is set to launch the new Radeon 6000's in time for the holidays.

otherwise, the landscape hasn't changed much, and there's a ton of value to be had if you know where to look. on the CPU front, AMD has some excellent quad-core CPUs with the PhenomII series. personally, i would go for the Phenom II 955 Black Edition. it has an unlocked CPU multiplier which makes overclocking a breeze. if you do go Intel, though, you can't go wrong with a Core i5. performance is on par with the PII 955, and they overclock extremely well. the difference is that they don't have an unlocked multiplier, and that makes things more difficult when overclocking.

with motherboards, i would recommend looking for a board that supports the new SATA 6.0 GB/s standard. it'll give you more bandwidth for whatever storage medium you choose (its backward compatible with the older SATA 3.0GB standard). if you do go Intel, you can also look for boards with the new USB 3.0 tech. AMD, however, won't have USB 3.0 until their new lineup of CPU's launches (hopefully) later this year.

on the GPU side, i would recommend the GeForce 460, Radeon 5830, or the Radeon 5850. all of them are excellent performers at a great price point. the performance edge goes to the GeForce.

as far as RAM is concerned, that will depend on which CPU you go with. if you go AMD, you'll want a 2x 4GB DDR3 kit(8GB total) for the duel channel setup. if you go Intel, you'll want 3x 2GB DDR3 kit (6GB total) for the triple channel setup (which AMD doesn't currently support).

otherwise, you can get some great deals on hard drives. hard drives are cheap, faster than ever, and 1 or 2 TB is a ludicrous amount of storage for most people. i personally recommend the 1TB Western Digital Black. i use it in my current PC, and its the fastest drive i've ever had.

of course, somebody is bound to mention Solid State Drives (SSD's). those drives are wicked fast, and they will allow Windows to boot insanely fast. however, they're also ludicrously expensive in terms of cost/GB. taking a quick look over at Newegg, you can get a 32GB SSD for ~$70 USD. doesn't sound like much until you consider that you can get a 750GB HD for the same price. just keep that in mind if you do go that route.

as for everything else, not much has changed. if you use the hardware specified, you'll probably need a 650W PSU. if you want Blu-ray, its available, and its not all that expensive, either. if you have money to spare (its easy enough nowadays), i'd put it into some better cooling in the form of a CPU fan/heatsink and perhaps a couple of high CFM fans so that you can get some better overclocking results.

anyways, good luck with the build, and keep us updated on how its going.


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Old 09-09-2010, 01:06 AM   #4
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Old 09-09-2010, 07:07 PM   #5
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Thanks to both of you for the info. It's a very good starting point to do my research and fine tune the choices!

As for the CPU...I so love/hate this eternal AMD/Intel "feud"..which one to chose??? I'm an eternal infidel so I guess I'll do my homework and start reading about it

@ Liverandbacon: I'm not anti-sli. But in the past it didn't really offered noticeable advantage over a single high end gpu...and replacing that single gpu by another single gpu during the lifetime of the comp was less expensive and offered a more uniform overall performance as new games were released (this is meant to be a gaming PC).

Quote:
of course, somebody is bound to mention Solid State Drives (SSD's). those drives are wicked fast, and they will allow Windows to boot insanely fast. however, they're also ludicrously expensive in terms of cost/GB. taking a quick look over at Newegg, you can get a 32GB SSD for ~$70 USD. doesn't sound like much until you consider that you can get a 750GB HD for the same price. just keep that in mind if you do go that route.
I currently have 3 HDD on my gaming comp which is 4-2yr old depending on the components (I tend to keep files in case I'd use them again in the near future but most of them are totally useless..and my filing system is such a mess...).

How about getting a small SSD drive and a bigger Hard drive for storage? Is that worth it or should just I get two regular HDD? (I am very partial to the 1TB Western Digital Black drive, at least for storage). Don't know if I've been lucky but those WD drives never failed me.

Quote:
n the GPU side, i would recommend the GeForce 460, Radeon 5830, or the Radeon 5850. all of them are excellent performers at a great price point. the performance edge goes to the GeForce.
I have a Radeon 4870, is it worth replacing it with one of those cards or the one proposed by L&B at this time or would you keep it a bit longer and wait for the next gen? (obviously, this may also influence the mobo choice...)

Also, the noise is also a factor for me (my ears are abnormally ultra sensitive). I always have earphones when I use my gaming PC, even if I'm not gaming because the noise just drives me mad. I chose the Radeon 4870 because at the time because it was less noisy than its nVidia counterpart but still, every time I turn on my PC I feel like an old jet is flying right over my head even with earphones on...for the same performance, I am ready to pay a little extra for a few less decibels (one the reasons why my budget is flexible...the same applies to the case and the fans). Any other case suggestions in that regard (good space/ventilation/sound insulation compromise)? - current case is an Antec P180-b for info.

Quote:
i'd put it into some better cooling in the form of a CPU fan/heatsink and perhaps a couple of high CFM fans so that you can get some better overclocking results.
That is definitely a given for the heatsink fan... For the cfm fans, I usually go for a compromise between cooling performance and noise.


Btw current built it:
Intel C2D E8400 @ 3400 GHz (tried higher but Mobo didn't like it at all).
Gpu: Ati Radeon 4870
Mobo: Motherboard Asus P5WDH
3 Western Digital 1x250GB + 2X500GB @ 7200rpm
Corsair XMS 2GB PC-6400 DDR2 CL4 (with an additional little kick in the lower back from d3)
Sound Card: modified Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer
PSU: Antec True Power Trio 650W
case: Antec P-180b

It might not be half bad but everyone has whims...and this is one of mine!
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:31 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333 View Post
As for the CPU...I so love/hate this eternal AMD/Intel "feud"..which one to chose??? I'm an eternal infidel so I guess I'll do my homework and start reading about it
hehe, best of luck there. of course, you can always start with Tom's Hardware's CPU comparison charts. just check out the benchmarks that pertain to your build, and that should give you a good baseline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
How about getting a small SSD drive and a bigger Hard drive for storage? Is that worth it or should just I get two regular HDD? (I am very partial to the 1TB Western Digital Black drive, at least for storage). Don't know if I've been lucky but those WD drives never failed me.
yeah, WD has been a solid buy for the past couple of years while the old favorite Seagate has fallen behind considerably. as for the SSD situation, unless having super fast boot time is a serious priority, i wouldn't worry about doing a hybrid SSD boot/HD data setup. its really still a little too costly for most people, and you won't notice that much of a performance difference. heck, as far as boot times are concerned, i can still get my system up and running within 1min of pressing the pwr button even with my 1TB WD Black.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
I have a Radeon 4870, is it worth replacing it with one of those cards or the one proposed by L&B at this time or would you keep it a bit longer and wait for the next gen? (obviously, this may also influence the mobo choice...)
great question. the 4870 is really one of the best cards from the previous gen, and it still holds up well today. in raw DX10 performance, its on par with the current gen Radeon 5770. so keeping that card around for a while might actually be a great way to save some $$ at least until we can see how well the new Radeon 6000 series is going to do.

the only downside is that you won't get DX11 and whatever other goodies that come with the card (Eyefinity for ATI and 3D Vision Surround for Nvidia), but that's really not that much of an issue since you A). only have 1 monitor and B). there just isn't that many DX 11 games on the market yet.

my advise would be to salvage the 4870 and use it until there's a compelling reason to upgrade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
every time I turn on my PC I feel like an old jet is flying right over my head even with earphones on...for the same performance, I am ready to pay a little extra for a few less decibels (one the reasons why my budget is flexible...the same applies to the case and the fans). Any other case suggestions in that regard (good space/ventilation/sound insulation compromise)? - current case is an Antec P180-b for info.
great case. that was the same case i used in my previous build, and really, the noisiest part was the GPU fan. everything else was mostly silent. my suggestion here would be to keep the case and upgrade the fans. with that particular case, you have 3x 120mm fans, and there's a ton of options there for nice, quiet fans that still pull a ton of CFM. for that, i usually stick with SilentX. those fans are a bit pricey, but they make almost no noise, and they pull a ton of air. just be mindful of the size of the intake fan on the front as you have a limited amount of space between the HD bay and the front bezel. conversely, you could just nix the HD bay, but keep that in mind if you do keep the HD bay.

if you do take my advise and keep the case and the GPU, i would go ahead and put the savings into a 80 Plus Gold Certified power supply. yeah, it'll be pricey, but those things should give you rock solid performance and save you some money in the long run. this one in particular would be an excellent PSU for your build.

anyways, if you have more questions, just keep 'em coming.


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How low to sink to the depths of their frame of mind

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Old 09-10-2010, 12:34 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333 View Post
As for the CPU...I so love/hate this eternal AMD/Intel "feud"..which one to chose??? I'm an eternal infidel so I guess I'll do my homework and start reading about it
Here's an unbiased answer to that question. This is the most direct comparison of each architecture. Once the Intel's turbo kicks in, they're actually running at the same speed (2.8GHz), and the i5 750 is just a straight quad-core with no hyperthreading or triple-channel memory support to skew the results. You can also use the Anandtech Bench to compare GPUs and SSDs, and your old CPU is also on the list for comparison.

Keep in mind that Intel's Sandy Bridge is going to be released late this year/early next year. I honestly don't know much about it (and, since I recently went into the red upgrading to a Core i7, I don't want to know about it ), but it appears that Intel might purposefully limit it's overclockability to promote sales of the higher-end models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
@ Liverandbacon: I'm not anti-sli. But in the past it didn't really offered noticeable advantage over a single high end gpu...and replacing that single gpu by another single gpu during the lifetime of the comp was less expensive and offered a more uniform overall performance as new games were released (this is meant to be a gaming PC).
I used to feel the same way until I found 2x9600GSOs for $40 apiece. Together they give me roughly the graphics power of a GTX 260 for less than half the price. Both SLI and XFire have improved dramatically in the past couple of years, but, if you have the $$$ to spend, I do agree that a single, powerful GPU is still preferable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
I currently have 3 HDD on my gaming comp which is 4-2yr old depending on the components (I tend to keep files in case I'd use them again in the near future but most of them are totally useless..and my filing system is such a mess...).
Luckily, HDD space is cheap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
How about getting a small SSD drive and a bigger Hard drive for storage? Is that worth it or should just I get two regular HDD?
It's now getting to the point that it is worth it, IMO. With garbage collection and TRIM, SSDs are a lot less maintenance-intensive and the new SandForce controllers make them almost 50% faster than the previous generation. They're still expensive, but not prohibitively so, and, from what I've heard, their impact on system performance is outstanding. I'm currently looking for one myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
(I am very partial to the 1TB Western Digital Black drive, at least for storage). Don't know if I've been lucky but those WD drives never failed me.
Same here. My main HDD is a Caviar Black. I've trusted WD since the early 90s.

The Samsung F3s (500GB platters) and now the new F4s (667GB platters) are also worth a look. The Samsungs are currently the fastest 7200RPM drives available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
I have a Radeon 4870, is it worth replacing it with one of those cards or the one proposed by L&B at this time or would you keep it a bit longer and wait for the next gen? (obviously, this may also influence the mobo choice...)
I know that you've always preferred ATI hardware, so it's definitely worth mentioning that the HD 6000 series is due to be released late this year/early next year (along with Sandy Bridge), so it's probably a good idea to hold onto that 4870 for just a little longer. I use Nvidia because I prefer their drivers, but there's no denying that the HD 5000 series' hardware is generally superior to the GeForce 400's (except in the case of the GTX 460, which has a redesigned GPU), and there's little doubt that HD 6xxx will be worth the wait. The graphics card should usually be the last part that you buy, anyway, because it's the first one to become obsolete. The better motherboards (P55 and X58) support both SLI and XFire nowadays, so there's no need to choose along those lines (Yes, thank you, Intel, for slapping Nvidia down and making them your bitch - No more putting up with craptastic Nvidia chipsets if you want SLI! ).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
Also, the noise is also a factor for me (my ears are abnormally ultra sensitive). I always have earphones when I use my gaming PC, even if I'm not gaming because the noise just drives me mad. I chose the Radeon 4870 because at the time because it was less noisy than its nVidia counterpart but still, every time I turn on my PC I feel like an old jet is flying right over my head even with earphones on...for the same performance, I am ready to pay a little extra for a few less decibels (one the reasons why my budget is flexible...the same applies to the case and the fans). Any other case suggestions in that regard (good space/ventilation/sound insulation compromise)? - current case is an Antec P180-b for info.
All (or nearly all) of the current-generation high-performance graphics cards are pretty loud, so the best solution would be to get an XFX brand card (yeah, they do ATI cards now, too) and replace the stock heatsink with a high-quality fanless one like an Accelero, along with some RAMsinks. As long as your case has good airflow, it will cool your card just fine even if you overclock it, and XFX's warranty is the only one that I know of that covers mods like aftermarket heatsinks. The only downside is that good fanless heatsinks are huge, so make sure you have the room.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
That is definitely a given for the heatsink fan... For the cfm fans, I usually go for a compromise between quality and noise.
High-CFM fans that are also quiet are usually pricey, but to get good airflow with low noise there's no other way around it. Just check the decibel rating before you buy. If you're sensitive to fan noise, you're not going to want anything louder than 25db.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
Btw current built it:
Intel C2D E8400 @ 3400 GHz (tried higher but Mobo didn't like it at all).
Gpu: Ati Radeon 4870
Mobo: Motherboard Asus P5WDH
3 Western Digital 1x250GB + 2X500GB @ 7200rpm
Corsair XMS 2GB PC-6400 DDR2 CL4 (with an additional little kick in the lower back from d3)
Sound Card: modified Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer
PSU: Antec True Power Trio 650W
case: Antec P-180b

It might not be half bad but everyone has whims...and this is one of mine!
Yeah, that system isn't too old at all. Well, the motherboard is, but it's a 975X, so I can see why you held onto it for so long. That was the flagship Intel chipset around four years ago. Really, though, the near-simultaneous release of Sandy Bridge and HD 6xxx make a compelling case for waiting just a few months if you want the best of the best.

Here's my build and what I paid for it after rebates and promotional discounts (including Microsoft's Bing cashback program):
Good GAWD! Even with the great deals I got, with Windows it was still close to $1000.00, and I haven't added an SSD or BluRay, yet. It's a freakin' powerhouse, though. You should see how it chews through massively multithreaded apps like RAD Video Tools! I haven't even started overclocking it yet; I haven't really felt the need.

If you haven't yet, sign up for Newegg's newsletter and you'll get promotional codes for discounts and free shipping, and be sure to check for combo deals offered on the components that you need. The daily "shell shocker" deals are also worth looking at. Some of the discounts that you can get are pretty awesome, and they're fun to look for, regardless.

Happy hunting!


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Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:00 PM   #8
Qui-Gon Glenn
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Gigabyte for the mobo, x58 or p55 your call - I am very happy with my p55 linky - this is a lil less than what I paid...

If you want serious power and efficiency, my Enermax Modu 87+ 700w... spendy but very efficient, my APC XS1000 UPS shows a power draw of only roughly 130 watts while folding with my GTX460 - far less than I expected! It is also by far the quietest PSU at that power rating.

My build is HTPC, so my CPU cooling solution is specific to my build, but it works quite well, the Big Shuriken by scythe. Went with Crucial memory because it was Mobo approved and renethx (from AVSforums) approved, which was good enough for me.

I found a great deal at FRYS when building on a BD burner, LG's, for $200. Great drive, and the Cyberlink software works nicely... far better than Roxio IMO.

If you are sold on AMD/ATI GPU's, then I understand, and would wait as Q advised for the 6xxx series. If you are open to a change in that regard, my EVGA 768mb GDDR5 gtx460 linky makes me quite happy... also a lil less than I paid!

For a quiet case, if you have extra coin, I cannot recommend highly enough the build quality, feel, and functional design of Lian-Li cases.

Happy building!


Want to play a game of ME3MP?
Qui-Gon_Glenn on the software of which we shall not name.... add me and the enemy shall fall in chunks of crimson salsa

Last edited by Qui-Gon Glenn; 09-12-2010 at 06:03 PM. Reason: a lil extra info
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Old 10-11-2010, 03:22 PM   #9
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Sorry for not replying earlier: I was away from the net and modern comms for a little while.


Anyways, thanks a lot to all of you for the feedback. It helped me a lot to get back on "track". Based on the above I think I'll wait for a little to see what happens with the the GPUs and will be reading more about CPUs.

Quote:
My build is HTPC, so my CPU cooling solution is specific to my build, but it works quite well, the Big Shuriken by scythe.
Btw, how is it about the noise? I'm looking for a good performance vs noise compromise.

Quote:
For a quiet case, if you have extra coin, I cannot recommend highly enough the build quality, feel, and functional design of Lian-Li cases.
I'll have a look at them.

thanks again to all for the input!
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Old 10-26-2010, 11:01 AM   #10
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^^^ The Big Shuriken is very quiet. My 140mm pwm case fan from Xigmatek is actually louder than the Shuriken, and both are quiet. Neither of them are nearly as loud as my GTX 460's cooling fan!!
The only time I hear my system is when everything else is off and I am folding on it.

The Lian-Li cases are 100% aluminum. Light and strong, logical and spacious, great fit and feel, and modular in the drive bays.


Want to play a game of ME3MP?
Qui-Gon_Glenn on the software of which we shall not name.... add me and the enemy shall fall in chunks of crimson salsa
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Old 12-26-2010, 06:38 PM   #11
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Finally some vacations!!!

So it is time to place my order...but...I didn't had time to review comp parts as I usually do so this built is based in part on the advice given above and on female intuition ( but the latter is not always a good thing when it comes to computer parts ):



-Motherboard: ASUS P6X58D Premium LGA 1366 Intel X58 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard (how about OC ? )
-CPU: Intel Core i7-950 Bloomfield
-CPU Heatsink: [url=http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835608018] Noctua NH-D14 120mm & 140mm SSO CPU Cooler[/url ] It seems huge but rather silent/efficient.
-RAM: Corsair TR3X6G1600C8D
-GPU: HIS H697F2G2M Radeon HD 6970 2GB 256-bit GDDR5
-PSU: Antec CP-850 850W Continuous Power CPX SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Modular Active PFC "compatible with Core i7" Power Supply
-HDD storage: Western Digital Caviar Black WD1002FAEX 1TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s
- SDD drive: OCZ Vertex 2 OCZSSD2-2VTXE120G 2.5" 120GB SATA II
-Optical Drive: ASUS Black 24X DVD blablabla 2MB Cache SATA 24X DVD Burner
-Sound Card: ASUS Xonar Essence STX
-Floppy Drive: SABRENT Black 1.44MB 3.5" External USB Floppy Drive Model SBT-UFDB ( I agree with EvilQ: this can be a life sanity saver)
-Case: Antec 900 or 1200...will the heatsink and everything else fit in the 900 with decent temps ? ( the 1200 seems rather monstrous in size as any full tower) What are the other options? (keeping the current P180B is not an option as my current comp will be used elsewhere).
- Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound


- And the (main) OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 1-Pack for System Builders I didn't check but is there a real advantage to purchase the pro version over the Home Premium version? Small home network and PC primarily dedicated to gaming/multidemia)

Any suggested modifications to the above? "Noise abatement" suggestions (other than water cooling) are more than welcome btw. I am trying to build a PC which will be decently upgradeable in the next few years (as was the precedent one - base purchased in 2006 - mentioned in the 5th post). Price range flexible.
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Old 12-27-2010, 10:44 AM   #12
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^^^^
nah, the Nine Hundred should have ample space for everything (granted, the video card might be a tight fit).

as for the OS, 7 Home Premium should work just fine as its designed with all of that in mind. the main selling points of Pro is that it gives the option of connecting to an external network via domains and an XP mode that actually uses XP running as a virtual OS (w/o 3D graphics accelleration, btw). unless you need either of those features, stick with Home.

otherwise, it sounds like a great build. good luck.


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Old 12-27-2010, 01:47 PM   #13
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^^^^
nah, the Nine Hundred should have ample space for everything (granted, the video card might be a tight fit).
Well I made a last minute change to the PSU and the case:
CORSAIR Professional Series AX750 750W

SILVERSTONE Fortress Series FT02B (like the 1200, it is a monster but at least it is a discrete monster).

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as for the OS, 7 Home Premium should work just fine as its designed with all of that in mind. the main selling points of Pro is that it gives the option of connecting to an external network via domains and an XP mode that actually uses XP running as a virtual OS (w/o 3D graphics accelleration, btw). unless you need either of those features, stick with Home.
Thanks. I'll stick with home then and a full install of XP pro for the old stuff.
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Old 12-27-2010, 07:11 PM   #14
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nice choices on the case and PSU. my only real niggle is that space could prove to be an issue with the length of the video card on that vertically oriented mobo mount (most review sites had trouble fitting any card that was 12" or longer). a bit pricey by my standards, too, but it should be worth every penny. good luck, and have fun.


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Old 12-29-2010, 01:57 PM   #15
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nice choices on the case and PSU. my only real niggle is that space could prove to be an issue with the length of the video card on that vertically oriented mobo mount (most review sites had trouble fitting any card that was 12" or longer). a bit pricey by my standards, too, but it should be worth every penny. good luck, and have fun.
oh thanks! I just checked the specs...this video card is huge.... The last thing I want is trouble fitting things in there so I'll do some more research. Then maybe I will go with the 1200 just to be safe though the price I have for the Silverstone case is less than the newegg price and it's apparently a rather silent case (I hate noise and am willing to spend extra bucks to reduce it). I had to modify a case to fit a GPU a few years ago: it was not funny (at least not my idea of "fun").
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:23 AM   #16
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I'm pretty sure that the 1200 is dimensionally similar to the 900/902 in regards to width and depth; it's just quite a bit taller. Both the 902 and the 1200 have washable dust filters on the intake fans where the 900 does not. I have a 900, but I sewed no-see-um netting to all of the mesh panels which keeps out the dust and is unnoticeable at a glance. I have a large CPU heatsink/fan, and the only modding that I had to do for it to fit with the side-mounted fan was to move the lexan window down an inch or two and drill a couple of new holes in it for the screws. All of that stuff is under an exterior mesh panel, so that mod is also unnoticeable. And if you're concerned about the gaudy blue LEDs, just crush them or snip the wires to them and problem solved.

One thing about that Vertex 2: I've read that several people have been experiencing troubles with it that the other SandForce SSDs aren't having. It has a slightly different controller, SF-1200SE as opposed to the normal SF-1200, which is most likely the source of the trouble. As such, I'd go with either a Corsair Force F120 or a G.SKILL Phoenix Pro 120GB. Here is a performance comparison between the Vertex 2 and the F120 for reference. As you can see, the performance is largely identical, with the exception of 4KB random reads (where the F120 smokes the Vertex 2). The G.Skill's performance should be more of the same, since it also has an SF-1200 controller.

And, last but not least, Sandy Bridge launches in less than a week. Intel is launching the mainstream platform (socket 1155/P65 chipset) first and is holding off on launching X58's successor until Q3 2011, but we'll still be able to see what this brand-new architecture is capable of compared to Nehalem. From the looks of things, the premium on CPUs with unlocked multipliers isn't going to be very high at all ($21?), so overclocking will still be possible.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 12-30-2010, 06:13 PM   #17
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I'm pretty sure that the 1200 is dimensionally similar to the 900/902 in regards to width and depth; it's just quite a bit taller. Both the 902 and the 1200 have washable dust filters on the intake fans where the 900 does not.
Height aside, the 1200 hundred is 1.8" longer and very slightly wider:
1200: 20.20" x 8.40" x 22.90"

900: 18.40" x 8.10" x 19.40"


btw, how do I know if it's the 900 or the 902? http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...TEC%20NINE


Quote:
the only modding that I had to do for it to fit with the side-mounted fan was to move the lexan window down an inch or two and drill a couple of new holes in it for the screws. All of that stuff is under an exterior mesh panel, so that mod is also unnoticeable.
I don't want to do this: I'm sure I would manage to make it look very noticeable I bet those blue LEDs would end up flashing everywhere through the new holes...

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And if you're concerned about the gaudy blue LEDs, just crush them or snip the wires to them and problem solved.
very good idea! (I still like the silverstone case though...) but still, I'd like to avoid case modification.

Quote:
One thing about that Vertex 2: I've read that several people have been experiencing troubles with it that the other SandForce SSDs aren't having. It has a slightly different controller, SF-1200SE as opposed to the normal SF-1200, which is most likely the source of the trouble. As such, I'd go with either a Corsair Force F120 or a G.SKILL Phoenix Pro 120GB. Here is a performance comparison between the Vertex 2 and the F120 for reference. As you can see, the performance is largely identical, with the exception of 4KB random reads (where the F120 smokes the Vertex 2). The G.Skill's performance should be more of the same, since it also has an SF-1200 controller.
Very useful info. Thanks. I think I'll go for the F120.

Quote:
And, last but not least, Sandy Bridge launches in less than a week. Intel is launching the mainstream platform (socket 1155/P65 chipset) first and is holding off on launching X58's successor until Q3 2011, but we'll still be able to see what this brand-new architecture is capable of compared to Nehalem. From the looks of things, the premium on CPUs with unlocked multipliers isn't going to be very high at all ($21?), so overclocking will still be possible.
Oh! I so love this! Every time you buy comp parts it is for "yesterday"

Ok now I don't know what to do anymore ( Local gov is also adding an extra 1% sales tax as of Jan 1st so total price will go up another +-20$ if I don't purchase tomorrow anyway - I can be a cheapsake sometimes, especially when 55% of income already goes into taxes of all kinds lol but that's for another thread ...elsewhere...) If I buy an intel x58 chipset now, the next time I want to upgrade I will likely have to change the mobo (not being required to change to mobo was part of the beauty of the current system but it was luck too). Maybe waiting an extra week (or two for the reviews) to see what happens could be worth it ???
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Old 12-31-2010, 12:26 AM   #18
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btw, how do I know if it's the 900 or the 902? http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...TEC%20NINE
Antec 902
Alright, this is weird. It's showing up as deactivated, but they were just selling them on Black Friday. It's supposed to be the replacement for the 900.
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I don't want to do this: I'm sure I would manage to make it look very noticeable I bet those blue LEDs would end up flashing everywhere through the new holes...
I'd get the 1200, then, since it will likely accommodate any CPU heatsink and graphics card with little or no modification and it has washable dust filters on the intake fans. Dust is a real problem with these mesh cases, but they have the best ventilation. I would recommend some sort of dust filters on whatever case you get. It won't entirely eliminate the problem, but it will drastically reduce the frequency with which you will have to clean your internal components, such as the CPU and GPU heatsinks, which in turn reduces wear and tear on said components. There are also several high-quality cases from Cooler Master that feature dust filters.
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Originally Posted by Darth333
very good idea! (I still like the silverstone case though...) but still, I'd like to avoid case modification.
You wouldn't be modifying the case; the LEDs in question are mounted on the fans, three to a fan. Just snip the wires leading to the LEDs, or crush the LEDs themselves with a pair of pliers.
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Originally Posted by Darth333
Very useful info. Thanks. I think I'll go for the F120.
That's the one I'd buy, since it has a rebate and Corsair rebates, while slow, are reliable.
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Originally Posted by Darth333
Oh! I so love this! Every time you buy comp parts it is for "yesterday"
Sorry to ruin your day.
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Originally Posted by Darth333
Ok now I don't know what to do anymore ( Local gov is also adding an extra 1% sales tax as of Jan 1st so total price will go up another +-20$ if I don't purchase tomorrow anyway - I can be a cheapsake sometimes, especially when 55% of income already goes into taxes of all kinds lol but that's for another thread ...elsewhere...)
All I'm going to say is that socialism is expensive; especially for the productive. :¬:
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Originally Posted by Darth333
If I buy an intel x58 chipset now, the next time I want to upgrade I will likely have to change the mobo (not being required to change to mobo was part of the beauty of the current system but it was luck too).
Yes, since Intel is changing CPU sockets again, I'm afraid that if you bought an X58 motherboard you most definitely would have to switch the motherboard for the next upgrade. Socket 775 was just unusually long-lived, and the right motherboard could last several years as your present one has. Sadly, that is no longer the case.
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Originally Posted by Darth333
Maybe waiting an extra week (or two for the reviews) to see what happens could be worth it ???
I would. This is going to be a big investment, and I would certainly want the latest and greatest if I was about to drop $1-2k on a new system. The only reason I didn't hold off until now was because my PSU shorted out my motherboard and I had to get something, or do without; which, of course, I can't.

It shouldn't take a week for the reviews to materialize; at least not for the bigger tech sites. They've been testing samples of this CPU for weeks, but they're under an NDA and can't publish anything until it lifts. We'll likely be seeing benchies shortly after midnight on Jan 5.

EDIT 1/3/11: NDA has lifted a couple of days early!


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker

Last edited by Q; 01-03-2011 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:33 PM   #19
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ok now that the new chipsets are out and that my old pc is now suffering from major hardware failure it`s more than time for the new machine.

Here is what I think I will order (I'm still unsure about the mobo though)

CPU: intel I7 2600K

Mobo:
This one : Asus P8P67 Deluxe REV3.0 ( http://sohodiffusion.com/prod/18576/...-3PCIE-X1.html )
or

this one: Asus Sabertooth P67 REV3.0 ATX P67 ( http://sohodiffusion.com/prod/18691/...5-DDR3-18.html )

or?
...

RAM: Corsair CMZ8GX3M2A1600C9 Vengeance 8GB 2X4GB DDR3-1600
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D14
HDD: WD Caviar Black 750MB (x2)
SSD: Corsair Force 120GB
PSU: Antec TPQ-850 850W
Video card: HIS Radeon HD 6970 2GB
Case: antec p193

dvd +floppy drives
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Old 03-19-2011, 09:40 AM   #20
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Wow. The Sabertooth model is all fancy-nancy with it's "TUF thermal armor" and "TUF thermal radar" and "TUF components." I really think Asus wants you to know that the Sabertooth P67 is one T-U-F motherboard. I don't recall seeing a main board with thermal housing before. I know if it were me I'd be wanting to find out if someone else has used this before and how well it worked.

I think you've specced out a pretty good power build here, D3. I'm just curious why you want two 750 GB HDD's as opposed to one 1.5 TB drive. Are you going to put them into a RAID 0 or RAID 1 array?


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Old 03-19-2011, 10:09 AM   #21
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I think you've specced out a pretty good power build here, D3. I'm just curious why you want two 750 GB HDD's as opposed to one 1.5 TB drive. Are you going to put them into a RAID 0 or RAID 1 array?
Mere organization. One of them will become an external drive.


Edit: it's on its way
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:49 PM   #22
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Edit: it's on its way
And now the fun part starts...



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Old 03-20-2011, 03:46 PM   #23
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Edit: it's on its way
The motherboard?

I just had a chance to look at them and, while I'm sure either one would be great, I'd pick the Deluxe model because the extra PCIE x4 slot offers a little better expandability.

I do kind of like the armor plating and funky, military-esque color scheme of the Sabertooth, though. Novel, in a masculine sort of way.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:04 PM   #24
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The motherboard?

I just had a chance to look at them and, while I'm sure either one would be great, I'd pick the Deluxe model because the extra PCIE x4 slot offers a little better expandability.

I do kind of like the armor plating and funky, military-esque color scheme of the Sabertooth, though. Novel, in a masculine sort of way.
I've read good things about both of them. I ended up choosing the Deluxe for the same reason you mention: it has more options...but I like the Sabertooth and its sturdy looks Also, from a practical point of view, in addition to the thermal thing, the Sabertooth looks less like a dust collector.

I also threw in a decent sound card and replaced the hard drive by a 1T (I'll get the external drive later).


I should be able to pick this new baby up at the end of the week. The only thing that worries me is climbing four stories with the damn case: it is awfully heavy and the whole thing will weight about 55-60 pounds when full...but me and my back are just whining here, which is even more unjustifiable as the new machine is an advance bd-xmas 2011 gift (I am a very spoiled "grownup" child).
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:38 PM   #25
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I forgot that you have a shop assemble it for you after you've bought the parts.

Are they installing Windows for you, too? If so, make sure that they install the RAID (definitely) and AHCI (perhaps) drivers for your particular motherboard. Windows 7 has its own AHCI drivers and usually all you have to do is set the SATA ports to AHCI in the BIOS before installing Windows and they'll install on their own, but sometimes motherboard manufacturers supply their own and those will be the ones that you'll want to use. AHCI is essential for Windows 7 to issue the wear-leveling maintenance commands known as TRIM to your SSD.

RAID drivers are a different story, because Windows does not have those built-in. Even if you don't plan on using a RAID now, its' a good idea to install them because you might want to later, and if they are not installed prior to installing Windows (I'm pretty sure it's right after partition creation and format), you won't be able to install them afterward, and you'll have to completely reinstall Windows if you want to use a RAID array. You might be able to install them afterward using disk imaging software like Norton Ghost or Acronis True Image, but I've never tried it myself, and this will save you the trouble of having to do something like that. You'll usually need to install a different RAID driver for every drive controller on your motherboard that's capable of RAID, as modern motherboards usually have several different drive controllers (mine has 4). If you never end up using a RAID array in your computer, then it won't matter, but if you do you'll be glad that the drivers were installed.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker

Last edited by Q; 03-20-2011 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:43 PM   #26
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Are they installing Windows for you, too? If so, make sure that they install the RAID (definitely) and AHCI (perhaps) drivers for your particular motherboard. Windows 7 has its own AHCI drivers and usually all you have to do is set the SATA ports to AHCI in the BIOS before installing Windows and they'll install on their own, but sometimes motherboard manufacturers supply their own and those will be the ones that you'll want to use. AHCI is essential for Windows 7 to issue the wear-leveling maintenance commands known as TRIM to your SSD.
I've read about it and e-mailed them too (along with a few more requests such as ensuring that the HDD is placed in the bottom tray to maximize ventilation near the parts that do produce a lot of heat). If it were any other shop, I'd build the PC myself but the past jobs they did at that place were good and cheap: no "italian spaghetti" job with the cables, they'll use the thermal paste you mention in a proper way, install the useful stuff but no more, and they'll do the extras you ask them.
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:57 PM   #27
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Plus it will save you a lot of time.

This machine will be a massive upgrade for you. Even though the CPU is way more powerful than your old one, I'm betting that the most noticeable performance boost will be the near-instantaneous loading of apps and games with that SSD. Windows will boot a lot faster, too, but that might not matter too much if your BIOS POST takes forever like mine does.

Then again, that 6970 is roughly twice as fast as your old 4870...


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 03-20-2011, 07:20 PM   #28
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Thanks for the link. Can't wait. I hesitated with it's nvidia counter part though (the 570, not the 580 which I think is just overpriced: an extra 20fps in ME2 isn't going to get me anywhere if I already get 80+ fps. I might as well get cheaper GPU and upgrade it when I really need to.)
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Old 03-25-2011, 08:33 PM   #29
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Woot! The beast has arrived! It is so silent and fast ! I already love this SSD drive (I ended up buying a Crucial Sata III ssd to go with the new mobo in lieu of the Corsair though )

I feel like a kid who got her dream toy at xmas

Playing with the new toy this weekend will likely make me "remember" my late-teens on Monday morning
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Old 03-31-2011, 03:49 PM   #30
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Woot! The beast has arrived! It is so silent and fast ! I already love this SSD drive (I ended up buying a Crucial Sata III ssd to go with the new mobo in lieu of the Corsair though )

I feel like a kid who got her dream toy at xmas

Playing with the new toy this weekend will likely make me "remember" my late-teens on Monday morning
Oh, I missed this earlier. Glad you got it and everything works OK.

The SSD should make a world of difference in day-to-day operations. That C300 is supposed to be the fastest of the generation 2 SSDs. I didn't think of it because it's SATA 3 and I've only been researching SATA 2 drives because the Marvell SATA 3 controller on my motherboard is worthless. Your SATA 3 controller is an Intel, so you should be fine. This stuff is still pretty new, though.

I picked up a couple of tips on how best to save space on that SSD. First, you may want to move the "My" folders (My Documents, etc.) onto the spindle drive. Those can take up a lot a space, but their contents generally don't require high performance since they're basically storage.

Second, since you've got 8GB of RAM, you can minimize the page file and make the minimum and maximum sizes the same, so that it takes up a consistent amount of space on the SSD. I do not recommend moving it to the spindle drive like I've read elsewhere, however.

I thought this third one up myself, though someone else has probably already thought of it and I just haven't read about it. Games take up a lot of space, and, if you're like me, you've got a lot of games. My solution is simple. You can install them all and then move the installation folders over to the spindle drive, keeping only the folders of the games that you're presently playing on the SSD and switching them out when you need to. It's not a perfect solution, but at least you won't have to keep uninstalling/reinstalling your games.

Remember to use no more than 75% of your SSD's capacity so that TRIM will have the necessary free space to do its job.

Have fun with your new toy!


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:37 AM   #31
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Second, since you've got 8GB of RAM, you can minimize the page file and make the minimum and maximum sizes the same, so that it takes up a consistent amount of space on the SSD. I do not recommend moving it to the spindle drive like I've read elsewhere, however.
Just out of curiosity, why would someone recommend that? Do a lot of writes/reads to the same blocks 'wear out' SSDs?

I don't have an SSD but I've been mulling over buying one on and off again. It seems to me that the stuff you would absolutely want on the SSD are OS core files, temp files and swap/pagefile... Basically the stuff that low latency/high throughput access too will speed up the OS.

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Old 04-01-2011, 04:55 PM   #32
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Just out of curiosity, why would someone recommend that?
It's an obsolete, pre-TRIM recommendation.
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Do a lot of writes/reads to the same blocks 'wear out' SSDs?
Exactly. This is why wear-leveling is so important, because it insures that all of the blocks get an equal amount of use which makes the drive last a lot longer.
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Originally Posted by acdcfanbill
I don't have an SSD but I've been mulling over buying one on and off again.
Same here. I'm still debating on whether to get one or just settle for RAID 0.
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Originally Posted by acdcfanbill
It seems to me that the stuff you would absolutely want on the SSD are OS core files, temp files and swap/pagefile... Basically the stuff that low latency/high throughput access too will speed up the OS.
That, and your most-used apps and games. Game load-times are near-instantaneous on an SSD.


@D3: One thing that I forgot to add is that you need to go into Power Options and select "never" under "Put computer to sleep". I'm pretty sure that sleep prevents TRIM from working.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker

Last edited by Q; 04-01-2011 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 04-20-2011, 11:31 PM   #33
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Second, since you've got 8GB of RAM, you can minimize the page file and make the minimum and maximum sizes the same, so that it takes up a consistent amount of space on the SSD. I do not recommend moving it to the spindle drive like I've read elsewhere, however.
Q, would you make this same recommendation for someone using 4GB? I've never used more than 1.8.

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Originally Posted by Evil Q View Post
Remember to use no more than 75% of your SSD's capacity so that TRIM will have the necessary free space to do its job.
Should I consider enabling disk quotas or will that 75% come out of that as well?

Also, is there a way to confirm that TRIM is running?

One more: I thought Win7 would disable Defrag if it detected a SSD? Or is the "Never run" what is meant by "disabled"?
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:31 AM   #34
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Quote:
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Q, would you make this same recommendation for someone using 4GB? I've never used more than 1.8.
The debate over what to do with the page file is as old as the page file itself. Some people advocate eliminating it entirely, which is crazy. In your case, I would just let Windows manage it, because it probably won't go over 4GB. As for people with 6 or 8GB of RAM I would consider limiting it to 2-3GB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Should I consider enabling disk quotas or will that 75% come out of that as well?
You know, I've never messed around with disk quotas, so I don't know if Windows would prevent TRIM from using the other 25% with them enabled. Personally, I'd always planned just to watch disk space usage and not let it get over 90GB on a 120GB SSD.
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Originally Posted by Achilles
Also, is there a way to confirm that TRIM is running?
Not that I'm aware of, no, but you can verify whether or not it's enabled:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Engineer
But you can check on the status of TRIM at the OS level (Win 7) and also enable or disable it via command line:

TRIM Commands

Go to the Command Prompt and type:

fsutil behavior query disabledeletenotify


DisableDeleteNotify = 1 (Windows TRIM commands are disabled)
DisableDeleteNotify = 0 (Windows TRIM commands are enabled)


To enable TRIM (if it's disabled), go to command prompt and type:

fsutil behavior set disabledeletenotify 0


To disable TRIM, to go command prompt and type:

fsutil behavior set disabledeletenotify 1
I would use an elevated command prompt for this.

You can also "kick-start" TRIM by emptying the recycle bin or performing disk cleanup, but as far as actually verifying that it's working, I've never heard of any way of doing that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
One more: I thought Win7 would disable Defrag if it detected a SSD? Or is the "Never run" what is meant by "disabled"?
It does. I'm paranoid and would probably check anyway, but that's just me.


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Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 03-29-2011, 09:17 AM   #35
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Old 04-02-2011, 12:38 AM   #36
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Interesting, thanks for the info on trim/ssds.

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Old 04-04-2011, 06:56 PM   #37
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Thanks for the info! Looks like I'll be doing some tweaking next weekend


I've been resolving an issue with a *** driver that was automatically installed by Windows 7 which was causing random BSODs and prevented sata drives and the sound card from being recognized The thread is not for the right mobo but I found the answer here and now it's all fixed: http://vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx?...Language=en-us

Quote:
Same here. I'm still debating on whether to get one or just settle for RAID 0.
I hesitated to get an SDD until the last minute as it is still quite expensive per Gig and I was afraid that I wouldn't find it worthwhile. However, now that I have one, I do not regret it at all (though I almost regret not getting a 250G drive). It is worth every penny. This thing is so fast that I first thought there had to be some mistake and that the file it was loading/reading/copying would turn up empty or with an error...but no It's silent too!
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:03 PM   #38
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I hesitated to get an SDD until the last minute as it is still quite expensive per Gig and I was afraid that I wouldn't find it worthwhile. However, now that I have one, I do not regret it at all (though I almost regret not getting a 250G drive). It is worth every penny. This thing is so fast that I first thought there had to be some mistake and that the file it was loading/reading/copying would turn up empty or with an error...but no It's silent too!
I think I need to stop reading this thread. A post or two more extolling the wonders of SSDs is all it will take for me to suddenly find myself on an out of control upgrading binge.

Glad the computer meets (or exceeds) expectations.



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Old 04-05-2011, 02:17 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liverandbacon View Post
I think I need to stop reading this thread. A post or two more extolling the wonders of SSDs is all it will take for me to suddenly find myself on an out of control upgrading binge.

Glad the computer meets (or exceeds) expectations.
Ditto, and I've been pretty happy with my 10k Raptor drive.

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Old 04-11-2011, 04:45 AM   #40
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I've been studying SSDs extensively because it's been labeled as the single biggest upgrade that you can get for your PC, regardless of your CPU (unless you've got a P4 or Athlon64) and from everything that I've read, random read/write performance has always been the biggest determining factor in everyday usage.

Which SSDs have the best random read/write performance? As of generation 2, it's those with a SandForce 12xx controller, followed by the Intel G2 drives, with the Intel drives being more reliable.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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