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Old 09-06-2006, 01:58 AM   #81
the_raven_03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
No I don't know. But I do know that people who hate their lives do so because they screwed it up somewhere along the line, or they don't have the courage to face their problems and fix them. Make your life better. If you're not retarded you CAN do that.
This I have to disagree with. There are plenty of kids who grow up in poor families and have to drop out of school to help support their younger siblings and what not, and because of this they are stuck in minimum wage jobs. I bet there are a lot of people who know what their problems are, but if you were working two crappy, minimum wage jobs, you don't have time to go and get your GED, or a college degree for that matter.

I also have to agree with what ET said about the unconditional love. One of my mom's best friends has a child with DS and it doesn't matter the slightest with his parents or siblings. They all love him dearly.


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Old 09-06-2006, 03:32 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Read my posts in this thread, or anywhere else. I have never said I am pro-choice. Only that I support abortion.
Ummm...You are aware that pro-choice and support of abortion are synonomous, right?


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Old 09-06-2006, 04:55 AM   #83
Mike Windu
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Interesting thread.

Pre emptive mercy killings? Yeah, right.

I don't know if you have ever been around a retarded person and their family, but their family loves them just as much as if they were a perfect member of society.

As mentioned on p. 1, it's called unconditional love.

Back to mercy killings: how do YOU know that the person won't grow up to be a great member of society? No matter what you tell yourself, it's the same as killing someone with any of the thousands of disorders out there. Maybe we should have shot Helen Keller when she was a kid, spared her the trouble of being blind.

Oh wait a ****ing second, she overcame it!

Ray Charles? Stevie Wonder?

And even if these prestigious people didn't overcome their problems, would you have the right to kill them? What if they didn't become authors, musicians, etc? What if they had to have people help them? Should we shoot people for requiring aid for a disorder?

"It is very often that we discover amazing talents, qualities, and/or senses in people who we tend to think of as inferior to us, and yet we often find out how we are indeed inferior to them."

There seems to be a very fallicitous argument going around, that it would improve someone's life by killing them because they are mentally retarded.

Let me rephrase that in case you didn't catch it.

Killing someone to improve their lives.

Reeeeeet.

Quote:
TK: If you're making an ethical/emotional appeal, you could look at it that the parents will be happier to have a regular child, and that the normal child will be happier to exist than the deficient one.
...

"damn it all to hell, our baby is retarded. let's kill it and try again."

Uhm, human worth?




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Old 09-06-2006, 12:05 PM   #84
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Back to mercy killings: how do YOU know that the person won't grow up to be a great member of society? No matter what you tell yourself, it's the same as killing someone with any of the thousands of disorders out there. Maybe we should have shot Helen Keller when she was a kid, spared her the trouble of being blind.
Absolutely. It's not like she ever accomplished anything. She was just miserable her whole life...[/sarcasm]

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Old 09-06-2006, 12:22 PM   #85
Jae Onasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
Jae Onasi,

Wonderful post and an exceptional bit of debunking. I hope you stick around this forum for a while
Thanks.
That's what I get for going to school way too long.
Well, this certainly has been an interesting discussion to say the least.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
Blackwell Synergy, Nature Publishing, ScienceDirect, Kluwer, etc... they're all private publishing houses and have top-notch journals.

Still, your analysis was spot on and informative.
Yeah, when I went back and looked at some of the med journals' publishing locations, I noticed quite a few of them had been farmed out to publishing houses, some fairly recently, including the major one in my field--something I hadn't really paid attention to til now. I think JAMA, Lancet, and New England Journal of Medicine are still independent. I probably would have been better off saying 'editorial boards' instead, since those are the people who actually decide which articles get published.

There is a definite tier system in journal reliability in the medical field, and I don't know if it's the same in the other science fields. There are those journals like JAMA and NEJM, peer-reviewed by some of the leading researchers at the 'most prestigious' medical schools (e.g. Harvard). These are the folks who are publishing articles on the major research projects run by university-based medical schools. The researchers themselves have reached the highest levels of excellence in the field. Their work is usually regarded seriously enough to be able to obtain NIH (in the US) grant money for the research. I regard articles in these particular journals as extremely reliable, though my crap detector stays on because every now and then something really weird comes down the pike.

Then there's the 'throwaway journals'--the ones you read and throw away later instead of keeping for the scholarship. These have discussions of things that are generally more relevent for 'real life medicine' like case studies, summaries of what's going on in the field, changes in standards of care and such, though they can have some great research as well. The articles don't deal with the esoteric research minutiae sometimes found in the more 'scholarly' research journals. The articles are more practical for the average practitioner. The research in some of these journals can be supported by grants from major companies, so not surprisingly you'll see research that supports the companies' claims--these major companies never publish the data about what _doesn't_ work, as you can imagine.

So, when I see private/for profit companies companies publishing journals, I automatically think that there _may_ be a bias--these publishers have to make money to stay in business. I don't know how much influence they have over the editors. Since JAMA and Lancet are independent, there theoretically is no interference from the publishing company in editorial decisions. However, the major scholarly journal in my field now has an outside publishing house producing it, and there doesn't seem to be any change in quality of the research that's been presented.

There's a continuum between the pure research journals and the throwaway journals, and I'm not sure where Prenatal Diagnosis falls in that continuum. The inclusion of the literature review article that says 90-ish% abort surprised me a bit, since it's contradicted by what apparently happens in 'Real Life' according to the other articles I found. Now, this isn't my field, so I could be wrong. It just seemed that the design of their study on articles was flawed at best, and the statistics were flawed accordingly. It's not going to take a rocket scientist to say "hey, they say 90%, but in _my_ practice, and those of my fellow OBs, it's 35-50%. What gives?"

Probably way more discussion of reliability of journals than anyone really wants.

@TK--people can walk on the grass if there's no sidewalks. There are plenty of people who don't drive who _aren't_ retarded. How do they get around?

@ET--I can't complain too much about stupid people--I've done some spectacularly stupid things myself, and I theoretically should know better.

@Emperor Devon--we wanted to try out Morrowind first before tackling Oblivion, since we found playing Kotor first made TSL a lot easier to understand in terms of gameplay mechanics. Well, that and we got Kotor before TSL came out. A lot of people seem to enjoy Morrowind, so we thought it'd be fun, too. We're relatively new to the PC gaming scene, since we really haven't had computers with the power to play games really well until the last couple years.


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Last edited by Jae Onasi; 09-06-2006 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 09-06-2006, 01:07 PM   #86
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Quote:
It just seemed that the design of their study on articles was flawed at best, and the statistics were flawed accordingly. It's not going to take a rocket scientist to say "hey, they say 90%, but in _my_ practice, and those of my fellow OBs, it's 35-50%. What gives?"
That is the inherent problem with meta-analyses, and for those that aren't aware, a study that takes a look at a number (n) of other studies is called a meta-analysis. The problem with a meta-analysis is that n=whatever studies the researcher choses, so the method of choice becomes of paramount importance when designing the research model.

If I get the chance today, I'll look at that study and see what their methodology was. Clearly, Jae demonstrated that their meta-analysis missed or omitted some data.


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Old 09-06-2006, 01:24 PM   #87
Jae Onasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
If I get the chance today, I'll look at that study and see what their methodology was. Clearly, Jae demonstrated that their meta-analysis missed or omitted some data.
They gave a brief description of their inclusion criteria in the abstract.


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Old 09-06-2006, 03:14 PM   #88
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This thread has been engaging, and I haven't participated with exception of offering a bit of well-placed (in my opinion) sarcasm that had the intent of helping to maintain a perspective.

Prenatal screening is something that I remember very well when my daughter was still in the womb. I still remember the feeling that I'm sure most parents-to-be feel when they go through it: "is my baby healthy? If not, what will I do?" My wife and I only discussed this a bit prior to our daughter's birth -preferring to cross that bridge when it came and to not dwell on it too much.

The decision to terminate a pregnancy due to discovery of fetal chromosomal and/or morphological abnormalities is one that should remain with the parents. Termination of a pregnancy is a very complex decision and one that can potentially have long-term "psycho-emotional morbidity" as a result (Kersting et al 2005; Korenromp et al 2005).

When looking at medical ethics, there are some basic principles (six if memory serves correct) that are considered in ethical decision-making. One of these is primum non nocere, or "first do no harm." This often gets applied in legal issues as well.

Regardless of what some in society may think about the "burden" that children born with medical abnormalities might present to "society," there is also the parents themselves to consider. Terminating a pregnancy does have a significant psychological impact on many people. Is this impact worth the trade if the parent is relieved of the financial or emotional burden of caring for a child with Down Syndrome or some other abnormality? I don't know. And neither does anyone else in this forum or any other.

This is why the decision to terminate a fetus in such a situation should reside only with the parents. Not the government. Not the medical establishment. Not religions (definately not religions). And not with society. The parents are the ones that will have to live with their decision, regardless of which one they make.

Would my wife and I have chosen to terminate her pregnancy if some serious abnormality like trisomy 21 (Down Syndrome)? Probably. But for reasons that go beyond the syndrome and the "burden" of caring for a child with Down Syndrome. Reasons that I won't go into here because they're not relevant. But then again, maybe we wouldn't have. We never had to make the decision and, for that, we are fortunate. One thing I can say for sure is this, I know several parents that have children with DS -not a one regrets the day they gave birth to their child. And each child is loved by their parents and considered to be the center of their universe.

For those interested in recent research in trisomy 21, I posted a news bit with a reference to a journal article on my blog: Science in Action: Sonic Hedgehog and Down Syndrome.

Scroll down to the bottom of the page to read a brief summary of recent developments in finding a treatment for trisomy 21 with a link another article; and, of course, to find out what Sonic Hedge Hog has to do with it.


References

Kersting, A; et al (2005). Trauma and grief 2-7 years after termination of pregnancy because of fetal anomalies - a pilot study. Journal of Psychosomal Obstetrics and Gynaecology, 26 (1), 9-14

Korenromp, M. et al (2005). Long-term psychological consequences of pregnancy termination for fetal abnormality: a cross sectional study. Prenatal Diagnosis 25 (13), 253-360.


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Old 09-06-2006, 04:40 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
Prenatal screening is something that I remember very well when my daughter was still in the womb. I still remember the feeling that I'm sure most parents-to-be feel when they go through it: "is my baby healthy? If not, what will I do?" My wife and I only discussed this a bit prior to our daughter's birth -preferring to cross that bridge when it came and to not dwell on it too much.
We went through that too. I can't imagine how we would have felt if what is being proposed here was in place....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Moss

What a horrible life Joey has led and what a terrible burden to society.

I will say it again: The ignorance.

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Old 09-06-2006, 05:00 PM   #90
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I'm getting so tired of having to quote five different people in every post (thank god that rccar and GSK both have more stamina than me ) so I'm just going to come out and make myself clear, again, because it seems that people have such a wrong idea of the position I'm arguing:

No where have I ever supported some kind of "forced/mandatory abortion" for a fetus detected as having DS. After all, who's going to force that abortion? The government? And you all haven't figured it out yet that I hate authoritarian big government? If you think that Devon has supported mandatory abortions, which I do not think that he has suggested, then that is clearly not my intention.

This thread is a CASE-BY-CASE thing. Like Skin said, aborting a fetus because you would rather have a functional child is a PERSONAL CHOICE and that is what I believe. No one can force you to get an abortion in a free country, period. It is MY OPINION that society would be better off if mothers chose to abort a fetus with DS... if I was a pregnant woman I'd choose the abortion. Because I'm a heartless Nazi killing machine? Strange, because I'm the one who argued against the slaughtering of the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
@TK--people can walk on the grass if there's no sidewalks. There are plenty of people who don't drive who _aren't_ retarded. How do they get around?
How do they get around? They either get a ride with someone else, or they drive illegally.

Trust me, there is no way in hell that you could get around in my town without a ride. What's next to the roads? Either dirt, a ditch, or trees. The closest neighborhood to the main road here is about a half hour walking distance away. And if you lived any further out - where it takes a half hour just to DRIVE to the main road - good luck walking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Have you like, never actually HAD a pet? I think very few people buy animals so they'll have entertainment. They're a companion. A creature that you love and hopefully loves you back, that you can always have around when you come home. I'm not saying retarded people are like pets, but they're certainly not around just as a source of entertainment.
Yes I have had pets. Three to be exact. The current pet - a cat - is very entertaining. Having it chase strings and such. I wouldn't really call pets "companions" but maybe that's just me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
It's called the special education program of public school. Last time I checked, the government footed the bill for public education.
The government foots the bill? And where does the government get their money... oh! From the taxpayers. Why should I be FORCED to pay for a service - special education - when I don't use it anyway?? If I have a retarded kid then let ME pay for my own child's special education. After all, I chose to keep the kid despite knowing that there's a good chance it would have DS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Oh please. Starving children in Africa cannot improve their situation. Most people in war-torn countries cannot improve their situation. Plenty of people in extreme poverty cannot improve their situation. Extremely stupid people will always be stupid, no matter how much they try. Don't try to pull this pity bull****, because nobody is buying it.
People in Africa or in Iraq can't improve their situation because they've been victimized. Different situation. And perhaps you're not "buying" my "stupid pity bull****" because it's hard to explain. If you want me to go into the psychology of it, there is a feeling of "guilt" so to say that I AM a normal kid and I see some retarded kid in a wheelchair and I'm like, damn, why him and not me? I KNOW that they will never live a normal life and that's one thing that I hold most important over all things - a normal life. YES there are exceptions where people who have DS or other disabilities can go and accomplish great things, stop saying I'm ignorant of that fact, but the VAST majority will have nothing in their life except "unconditional love" as everyone is saying repeatedly.

Which is something else I don't understand - unconditional love. Perhaps you just have to be a parent to understand that concept. Personally I hate kids. I hate being around them. I have no plans of ever having kids. They're annoying and they have filthy habits. At least all the kids I've been around.

I know I know, everyone here is going to say TK... TK... how can you say that you insensitive bastard! Now you're saying we should be aborting ALL children eh??

No. That's not what I'm saying.

Which is why it's most sad that retarded people have to act like kids ALL THEIR LIVES...

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_raven_03
This I have to disagree with. There are plenty of kids who grow up in poor families and have to drop out of school to help support their younger siblings and what not, and because of this they are stuck in minimum wage jobs. I bet there are a lot of people who know what their problems are, but if you were working two crappy, minimum wage jobs, you don't have time to go and get your GED, or a college degree for that matter.
Don't drop out of school. If you do, get your GED. Who doesn't have the time to get their GED? And you don't even need a college degree to improve your life. I don't have any plans to go to college. A trade school is really all you need if you want to be an electrician or something like that.
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Old 09-06-2006, 05:16 PM   #91
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Would my wife and I have chosen to terminate her pregnancy if some serious abnormality like trisomy 21 (Down Syndrome)?
I asked myself that, too.

I'd probably vote for abortion anyway, since I'm just 20 and still in high school (lagged behind due to "mental deficiency"). If it happened when I and whoever I end up with are ready to have children, then Heck, I don't know. I really do not.

Quote:
@TK--people can walk on the grass if there's no sidewalks. There are plenty of people who don't drive who _aren't_ retarded. How do they get around?
Move out of the city to one with a slightly better-planned public transit/pedestrian system?

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Old 09-06-2006, 05:34 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
And where does the government get their money... oh! From the taxpayers. Why should I be FORCED to pay for a service - special education - when I don't use it anyway??
You know your tax dollars pay my salary. Are you using the science data I'm helping to collect? No. So either I should stop getting paid or I should've just been aborted? I also don't agree with my tax money being used to aid Katrina victims. I'm not using that service. Same with the tax dollars that go towards community services outside of my specific community, because I really don't need them. And not everybody will need their kids to goto public school. Some people attend private schools, but they still have to pay taxes that paid for every other kids education. That's the way taxes work. They aren't always going to directly benefit you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Which is something else I don't understand - unconditional love. Perhaps you just have to be a parent to understand that concept.
I would've thought anyone with a family would have a firm grasp of unconditional love. I was apparently mistaken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Don't drop out of school. If you do, get your GED. Who doesn't have the time to get their GED?
People whose parent died and their single mother/father doesn't earn enough to feed everyone and pay the bills and they're working two full-time minimum wage jobs so their family can live. There's the unconditional love part coming into play, sacrificing your own future for your family.



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Old 09-06-2006, 05:59 PM   #93
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There will always be special education. People will get depressed and fall behind. They'll develop social problems. They'll just be plain lazy and lag behind. They'll be in a car accident, need time to recuperate, and lag behind. This friend I got to know during a hospital stay had to stay home from school every other week to take care of her sick mother (she had a sister, and they alternated school and nursing sick single mom). She ended up three years behind (I was tempted to use the space between these two parentheses to sing the praises of the Scandinavian welfare system, but... Nah). She was determined to catch up, but for all I know, maybe she's today going to a special school that lets you take it at your own pace, regardless of age or how far you are behind.

It doesn't matter if you cure/abort every mentally deficient/physically handicapped/both fetus out there, you'll always need special education.

Quote:
Why should I be FORCED to pay for a service - special education - when I don't use it anyway??
Because it's the right thing to do.

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Old 09-06-2006, 08:35 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
You know your tax dollars pay my salary. Are you using the science data I'm helping to collect? No.
I'm not aware of what your job is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
I also don't agree with my tax money being used to aid Katrina victims. I'm not using that service.
I'd rather give aid money to the Red Cross and private Katrina charities than to the corrupt federal government. Maybe you like giving your money to incompetent bureaucrats who are going to waste your money instead of putting it to good use, but I'd rather contribute to a trustworthy charity, thankyouverymuch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Same with the tax dollars that go towards community services outside of my specific community
Why don't the people in that community pay for their own community, and you pay for your own?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
And not everybody will need their kids to goto public school. Some people attend private schools, but they still have to pay taxes that paid for every other kids education.
Vouchers my friend!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
That's the way taxes work. They aren't always going to directly benefit you.
A lot of the time, the only people who benefit from taxes are corporate cronies and government bureaucrats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
I would've thought anyone with a family would have a firm grasp of unconditional love. I was apparently mistaken.
I don't understand how just because someone is in your family you should love them unconditionally. If your father beat your mother and treated you like ****, and then you never see him again because he goes off to prison, should you love him anyway just because he happened to be the one whose sperm contributed to your creation? I don't think so!

I love my parents because they are caring people who are always there, and have given me everything I could ask for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
People whose parent died and their single mother/father doesn't earn enough to feed everyone and pay the bills and they're working two full-time minimum wage jobs so their family can live. There's the unconditional love part coming into play, sacrificing your own future for your family.
Yup, that's a problematic situation indeed. But I guess that's what welfare private charities and churches are for...


This is all TOTALLY off-topic though. Perhaps we could start a new thread on this thing since to be honest, I'm completely bored with the original topic, since clearly no one is going to have a change of opinion on this matter.
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Old 09-06-2006, 09:35 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
I'm not aware of what your job is.
Irrelevant, I still get paid with taxpayers dollars, and I'm not providing any of them any semblance of a service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Why don't the people in that community pay for their own community, and you pay for your own?
So the real problem is that you don't know how taxes work, then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
I love my parents because they are caring people who are always there, and have given me everything I could ask for.
And if they got in a car wreck, became paralyzed, and suddenly relied upon you for support: physically, emotionally, and financially, would you stop loving them?



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Old 09-06-2006, 10:10 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
So the real problem is that you don't know how taxes work, then?
I know perfectly well how taxes (don't) work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
And if they got in a car wreck, became paralyzed, and suddenly relied upon you for support: physically, emotionally, and financially, would you stop loving them?
I'd be glad to pull my own weight after all they've given me by working my ass off in school and work as much as I have to to pay for my own expenses. Both of my parents have health and life insurance so it wouldn't be THAT big of a problem financially for them.
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Old 09-06-2006, 10:33 PM   #97
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But if they happened to be two people who were deficient in their parenting, you'd say **** them?


Looking out for number one eh? Lovely mentality.

p.s. oh how so convenient for them to think of you ahead of time and get life insurance so you wouldn't be drowning in debts. But of course if my parents were bad to me I'd just take the money and run.




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Old 09-06-2006, 11:44 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Windu
But if they happened to be two people who were deficient in their parenting, you'd say **** them?


Looking out for number one eh? Lovely mentality.

p.s. oh how so convenient for them to think of you ahead of time and get life insurance so you wouldn't be drowning in debts. But of course if my parents were bad to me I'd just take the money and run.
It is totally amazing how pretty much everything I've said in this thread has been blown way out of proportion and put in an overly-dramatic tone. Can't there be a discussion on such an issue without there being this kind of condescending attitude? Seriously.

Let's be real: if your parents created you, they DO have the legal duty to care for you if they have the ability to do so. To not do so would be child neglect. There's a difference between being a "deficient" parent and being a total dead-beat who doesn't even try to raise their kids. It's not just "convenient" that they thought of me and got life insurance... it's also good parenting. A bad parent might not get life insurance.

Now, if both your parents were total *******s who beat the **** out of you and verbally abused you, but actually DID get life insurance, I'd have no problem taking the money once they pass on and using it to improve my life and get it back on track because my parents screwed it up. Is that looking out for myself? You ****ing bet it is. And I wish more people looked out for themselves instead of just complaining about how their life is screwed up and not DOING anything about it other than living off welfare for the rest of their lives, and then abusing their own children in a vicious cycle.

Holy ****! Now everyone in this thread is going to start telling me how I'm so insensitive... I'm so ignorant... I'm so heartless... because I think that all people on welfare are lazy whiners. No that's not what I'm saying and that's not what I think either. I'm saying that more people should actually take responsibility for themselves.


Phew... I don't know how I got off on that rant. Too much listening to Carlos Mencia I suppose.
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Old 09-07-2006, 01:44 AM   #99
Jae Onasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
We went through that too. I can't imagine how we would have felt if what is being proposed here was in place....
Yech--not only having the tests, but hoping they'd be normal, and when discovering they're not, having to deal not only with the distress of knowing your child has a disability, but also wondering how you're going to deal with state-mandated termination. Not a pretty picture.

We skipped the alpha-fetoprotein/triple screen tests entirely. It wasn't going to make any difference in carrying the baby, and most babies are just fine. I didn't want the stress or the amnio risks (no matter how low they are), especially when the 5 month ultrasound could pick up pretty much everything anyway. The midwife amused hubby and me by saying "Oh, you people are so easy."

@TK--just to be clear so there's no mistaken impressions on the research thing and the Wiki quote--I didn't mean to imply _you_ had made up crap for my crap detector to redline on. I was referring to the number in the article itself, not your research and quoting of that article/number. I was glad to see you'd taken the time to check out some sources.

Edit--on tax dollars paying for services for others--I'm very happy to have a fire and police dept around. We've only had to call paramedics once. Maybe I'll never need the fire dept. and so I'm not seeing a direct benefit, but if my neighbor's house catches on fire (heaven forbid), I'll sure be glad they're around taking care of his house so that mine doesn't catch on fire also.


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Old 09-07-2006, 02:16 AM   #100
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With regard to the number of abortions, the more I look into, the more I see it as being closer to accurate than not. I just read a note on some site (I've no idea where now) about how in Germany doctors spoke before the German Parliament (Der Deutsche Bundestag) about the number of children born with Down Syndrome. The expectation was 1 in 600, resulting in over 1,000 but the actual number was 63.

Regardless of the number of abortions for these types of abnormalities, I won't fault the parents. They have to make these types of decisions. But the ethical questions are to what degree does the medical profession and society influence the decisions to terminate a DS pregnancy? And is this influence (whether it is positive or negative) ethical?

Jae,

I included the Prenatal article in case you want the full version. Its only 5 pages long and the methodology, which I was interested in, is only a couple of paragraphs. They basically gathered data from papers that mentioned x number of women pregnant with one of their target abnormalities but only if they mentioned whether the fetus was brought to term or terminated.

As an anthropologist, my first impression was that n was too restrictive to be able to conclude anything about all women diagnosed with fetal abnormalities. That is, unless all women with fetal abnormalities are mentioned in peer-reviewed literature.
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Old 09-07-2006, 03:06 AM   #101
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Reading it, a couple things struck me at the crazy hour of 1:30ish am....
1. The percentage of termination for anencephaly was lower than for DS, which I thought was a little strange. Even I'd terminate early for anencephaly, since there's 0% survival without a brain and the baby dies soon after birth. However, there weren't as many of those cases so it's far easier to get some funky results looking at that one condition.
2. There's no discussion of the impact of increased use of ultrasonography/amniocentesis in the 90's over the 80's on the research, though the numbers themselves showed a tendency for the earlier studies to have smaller numbers (not exclusively, but not surprisingly, the biggest studies were all in the '90's). However, it is a short article, and I'm a history nut. They acknowledge the rates stayed the same from 80's to '90's but make no other analysis.

I have the distinct feeling that not all births/births with abnormalities are reflected in the journals....


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Old 09-10-2006, 08:06 AM   #102
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If we are to go by these guidelines should some of the people that are here today have been killed off? Because there are people that are by definition retarded that are far more intelligent than a lot of people who are meant to be fully functioning adults.
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:14 PM   #103
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surely the 20th century has taught us this sort of thing is too dangerous...

My take (quick response to the OP, didn't read anything past that):

Eugenics = unethical pseudoscientific crap.

There will always be "imperfections" in people, that's no excuse to use sterilization, killing or selective breeding to try to "purify" or improve the human species. If people want to be selective about whom they marry, fine, but allow them that freedom, rather than forcing them to do something against their will.

Technology is such that the human races hardly "suffers" for lack of "natural selection" as some people try to argue. Plus, I think it brings out a certain dignity in the human race by how we care for our "lesser" members. If the best solution we can come up with is to kill those we don't desire, then perhaps we don't deserve to live ourselves (and who gets to decide? always those with means in power, that's hardly fair, plus those in power are often unworthy anyway, just because you have power doesn't mean you earned it or even deserve it).

The time and money spent on draconian methods of eliminating these people should go instead to improving their lives and preventing the problems in the first place (and I'm against abortion, I'm talking about gene therapy before birth and such).


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Old 09-13-2006, 04:00 PM   #104
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I have a friend who is, by definition, retarded. He trashed this woman who thought that autism was related to childhood vaccinations, and made her look like a fool by not only disproving her at every turn, but beforehand getting her to agree on a whole range of conspiracies (she finds conspiracies in everything from September 11 to the Gulf War) such as the sickness soldiers felt in Iraq was due to an experiment to create super soldiers (a plotline from Metal Gear). Now having been to college and univertisy, proving that someone with mental disabilities can do it despite this woman's claims, how can you say they are not intelligent or any diffirent to someone who is not deficient and believes they...I dunno, God told him to wage war on Iraq?
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