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Old 08-31-2006, 01:32 PM   #121
Good Sir Knight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
No, actually, it wasn't clear. I'm not entirely familiar with your writing style at this time and without facial cues, sarcasm is hard to carry off.

I haven't been to Gitmo to find out if there's torture there, have you? Anything we say is guesses and speculation at best, and rumor-mongering at worst. We don't have enough hard facts to know the truth, and the only people who do aren't talking in public.

I suspect the truth is somewhere in between the 'nothing bad's happening at all' and 'OMG, they're being tortured right and left!' Fights happen in jails all the time, and the people who are at Gitmo right now are enemy combattants/POWs/nom du jour. They're people who've fought in battle. I don't expect them to be complacent pacifist good little boys 100% of the time when they've been soldiers. I even expect to see them try to fight their captors and each other. And I expect most of our soldiers to be professionals and treat them with some respect, but I recognize that if a fight breaks out, our soldiers are going to act. I also understand that a lot of our soldiers are passionate about protecting our country, and they aren't going to put up with any crap from prisoners. Some of them are even going to go overboard in their desire to protect their fellow soldiers and their country.
So, if there's torture going on, I doubt there's much of it. And any allegations of torture need to be investigated, and if it's happening, dealt with appropriately

Ah yes an honest appraisal of the situation, of course Dagobahn is still convinced that the sky is falling and that America is on par with dictatorships throughout history.

When ever I go to the beach, I like to think about how free I am and how so very alone they feel, makes me warm inside.
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Old 09-06-2006, 04:42 PM   #122
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Ah yes an honest appraisal of the situation (...)
But not a very accurate one.

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No, actually, it wasn't clear. I'm not entirely familiar with your writing style at this time and without facial cues, sarcasm is hard to carry off.
Well, never mind, we got it sorted out.

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I haven't been to Gitmo to find out if there's torture there, have you?
Nope. Neither has Cuban Red Cross, Amnesty International, or any other humanitatian organization - they are all being denied access to the camp. Ang guess what, I find that fact very telling. Of course it proves nothing (Bush's amission of and Rumsfeld's defense of torture handles that part pretty nicely), but it implies quite a lot.

It's funny to see how the neo-cons change their rhetoric to suit them, by the way. When Iraq barred the UN weapons inspectors, they went "oh, they're denying inspectors access, they must be guilty", then they went and invaded.

Then when Guantanamo becomes an issue, suddenly the "if you disallow inspections, you're guilty"-attitude of the Bushers vanishes in thin air. "So they're not allowing inspectors, so? When did that mean anything?"

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Anything we say is guesses and speculation at best, and rumor-mongering at worst.
Nope, we've got far more than that.
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We don't have enough hard facts to know the truth, and the only people who do aren't talking in public.
We have The Tipton Three for one: Three innocent British civilians. And we have soldiers from Guantanamo talking to organizations such as Human Rights Watch about oppression at Guantanamo. We've even got Rumsfeld himself defending torture ("what's so wrong about standing up for a few hours? I stand at my desk.").

It's more than enough to warrant suspicion, don't you agree?

Quote:
They're people who've fought in battle. I don't expect them to be complacent pacifist good little boys 100% of the time when they've been soldiers. I even expect to see them try to fight their captors and each other. And I expect most of our soldiers to be professionals and treat them with some respect, but I recognize that if a fight breaks out, our soldiers are going to act.
Yup, and not only then.

I suggest you read up on the thread. We've posted links to numerous articles and sites that prove there's not only torture, but Bush-approved torture. If I were you, I'd start with the movie I posted, "Our search for security past 9/11".

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So, if there's torture going on, I doubt there's much of it.
If there's torture going on, and there is, then it's either going to be stopped, or it's going to escalate. I've got 34 years of Amnesty research behind me on that one. Torture cannot be controlled more than a tornado or avalanche can.

Quote:
And any allegations of torture need to be investigated, and if it's happening, dealt with appropriately
I agree. And since you've apparently got nothing to hide, here's how to end all suspicion of torture: Allow teams of observers from the Red Cross, Amnesty International, or the United Nations to go in there, stay there, and oversee the prison. If there's no torture, there's really no reason not to.

The moment a permanent ICRC observation unit at Guantanamo reports all's well, I'll stand down about the torture allegations (except from the accusations of torture up until the ICRC's arrival). The moment the prisoners are given fair trials, I'll stop campaigning for the articles of the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights to be followed.

It's really that easy. The Red Cross's an orderly bunch. We won't tear the place down, organize riots, mess up the Commander's office, or sell narcotics among to the prisoners.

Quote:
(...) of course Dagobahn is still convinced that the sky is falling and that America is on par with dictatorships throughout history.

When ever I go to the beach, I like to think about how free I am and how so very alone they feel, makes me warm inside.
If you like to think that way while swimming, fine by me. I don't care less, I know it ain't so [edit: what he wrote about me, the prisoners he's probably right about].

I mean, what if the water's as cold as here in Norway where you live? You may need some warmth.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 09-17-2006 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 09-06-2006, 04:57 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
When ever I go to the beach, I like to think about how free I am and how so very alone they feel, makes me warm inside.
You have to be pretty twisted inside to get a warm feeling from knowing that three innocent british guys were held without trial, without charges, without representation, in small cages, for 3 years, tortured and humiliated and that there are others still there, including children.

Maybe you should see a shrink as you seem to be displaying borderline sadist tendancies recently.



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Old 09-17-2006, 12:20 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by toms
Maybe you should see a shrink as you seem to be displaying borderline sadist tendancies recently.
Guess whats sadistic? Britains getting blown up and the Islamic community telling the government they should change their foreign policy.

Have fun living under Sharia toms.
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Old 09-17-2006, 08:41 AM   #125
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Guess whats sadistic? Britains getting blown up and the Islamic community telling the government they should change their foreign policy.
Do you have to try to shift attention to something else every time you're cornered? It's getting very annoying.

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Have fun living under Sharia toms.
Do you have anything to back up your claim of Sharia Law being a possibility in the UK?

PS: Who the Heck is that crying chick in your avatar?

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Old 09-17-2006, 11:16 AM   #126
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It's Cindy Sheehan after she saw her son's face on a poster being used by protesters.


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Old 09-17-2006, 02:15 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
Guess whats sadistic? Britains getting blown up and the Islamic community telling the government they should change their foreign policy.

Have fun living under Sharia toms.
1) Er. No.

2) ??

Re sheenan: I'd suspect GSK quite enjoys having that avatar, as he seems to take some sort of twisted delight in the pain and suffering of others. Not healthy imho.



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Old 09-17-2006, 02:22 PM   #128
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Lets try to avoid the ad hominem comments, guys.


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Old 09-23-2006, 12:31 PM   #129
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On the topic of the Red Cross visiting Guántanamo, I stand corrected. They are allowed to visit, and do so every few months or so, according to the ICRC's web site:
Quote:
ICRC in Guantanamo Bay - May 2006
The ICRC has been visiting detainees held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba since January 2002. There are currently about 480 detainees from roughly 40 countries. As of December 2005, the ICRC had facilitated the exchange of nearly 20,800 Red Cross messages between the detainees and their families in more than 30 countries.
Just something I came across when I wrote my response to this thread.

Why they don't visit more often, I don't know. Perhaps they aren't allowed to, perhaps they don't have the resources, or perhaps they for sme reason don't feel the need.

Quote:
It's Cindy Sheehan after she saw her son's face on a poster being used by protesters.
Which brings me to the obvious question #2...

What the Heck is she doing in GSK's avatar?

PS: While browsing the ICRC site, I also found this:

Quote:
If civilians directly engage in hostilities, they are considered "unlawful" or "unprivileged" combatants or belligerents (the treaties of humanitarian law do not expressly contain these terms). They may be prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action.

Both lawful and unlawful combatants (...) are entitled to humane treatment in the hands of the enemy.
The whole page is a very interesting read.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 09-23-2006 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 09-26-2006, 05:36 AM   #130
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FOX news is about as "fair and balanced" as NBC, CBS, ABC and CNN are, with reversed polarity. I wish I could check out the BBC; it would be refreshing to see a truly neutral newscast.

@JMAC: You are quite correct-Bill O'Reilly is a f***in' moron.

Did anyone see the Late Show where Dave Letterman calmly told him that a lot of what he says is "just a bunch of crap"? What an ambush! O'Reilly had no real answer and was clearly caught off gaurd. A classic!
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Old 09-26-2006, 11:49 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
FOX news is about as "fair and balanced" as NBC, CBS, ABC and CNN are, with reversed polarity. I wish I could check out the BBC; it would be refreshing to see a truly neutral newscast.

@JMAC: You are quite correct-Bill O'Reilly is a f***in' moron.
O'Reilly's entertaining if nothing else.

If I want 'fair and balanced', I watch a little Fox, a little CNN, and after sifting through the right/left rhetoric, I get enough facts to figure out for myself what's really going on.

BBC's not neutral. It does, however, present a non-American approach and it's useful to see the world through non-American eyes sometimes.


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Old 10-06-2006, 07:48 PM   #132
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Red face

Oh well. Happy B-Day, FOX "News".

The first part would be my favourite:

1st: "We hope you'll depend on us for the truth, 'cause we'll report without an agenda".
2nd: "Either support the military or shut up".

OK, so the first one was apparently a news broadcast/ad of sorts, while the second was most likely an opinion show, but still:

I also liked how they told this guy whose father was killed on 9/11 to "shut up".

Quote:
(...) it's useful to see the world through non-American eyes sometimes.
Goes for all countries, doesn't it?


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 10-07-2006 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 10-07-2006, 12:05 AM   #133
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Did anyone else catch that "mistake" by FOX that labeled Mark Foley as a Democrat at the bottom of the screen?

Gee, I wonder how that happened. Did the person writing for FOX just automatically assume that hey, if it's a gay sex scandal, SURELY it's a Democrat!
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Old 10-07-2006, 12:10 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Oh well. Happy B-Day, FOX "News".

The first part would be my favourite:

1st: "We hope you'll depend on us for the truth, 'cause we'll report without an agenda".
2nd: "Either support the military or shut up".

OK, so the first one was apparently a news broadcast/ad of sorts, while the second was most likely an opinion show, but still: :ROFL:

Goes for all countries, doesn't it?
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Old 10-07-2006, 06:36 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae
(...) it's useful to see the world through non-American eyes sometimes.
Goes for all countries, doesn't it?
Yes, but since Fox/CNN are American companies and BBC is 'non-American', the grammar/vocabulary choice just kind of worked out that way.


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Old 10-07-2006, 06:58 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Did anyone else catch that "mistake" by FOX that labeled Mark Foley as a Democrat at the bottom of the screen?

Gee, I wonder how that happened. Did the person writing for FOX just automatically assume that hey, if it's a gay sex scandal, SURELY it's a Democrat!
Either that or just wishful thinking.
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