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Old 10-31-2006, 10:09 PM   #41
Jae Onasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
Not all ridicule is deeply offensive.

Though, there are undoubtedly those who find such a cartoon deeply offensive (or make a display as though they do).
Every now and then I have to practice on my over-the-top 'Southern Belle Swoon' lest I become rusty up here in the Great White North. I miss my Texas buddies.
In regards to above--
We don't live in the Kalahari or Polynesia--what they do with ridicule in their culture can't necessarily be applied here.
The problem with ridicule is a number of people don't know how to draw the line between doing something to satirize and doing something that is intentionally hurtful/insulting in the name of satire. The former I can deal with--I've certainly done idiot things that I've laughed at myself over. The latter I find objectionable, whether it's directed at religion, atheism, political figures, or any other group.

And just for fun...

(Copyright Gospel Communications International, Inc - www.reverendfun.com)


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Old 10-31-2006, 10:35 PM   #42
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Oh, ha ha ha. How funny.


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Old 11-01-2006, 02:10 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Oh, ha ha ha. How funny.
Hey, I thought the one SkinWalker put up was amusing, too.
What do you expect from someone who got together with her hubby out of a mutual love for puns?


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

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Old 11-01-2006, 02:45 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Hey, I thought the one SkinWalker put up was amusing, too.
It's funny in that sort of way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
What do you expect from someone who got together with her hubby out of a mutual love for puns?
That's a point...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth
We will be great failures one day, you and I
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Old 11-01-2006, 11:45 AM   #45
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I used to be an atheist, but I gave up. No holidays.


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Old 11-01-2006, 12:26 PM   #46
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Oh, but we do have holidays, even apart from New Year's Eve, Constitution Day and Midsummer Night. We just hijack the celebrations you guys originally hijacked from the atheists - you know, such as December the 25th?

1-1

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Old 11-01-2006, 12:58 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
Private beliefs should have respect. But when people make a public spectacle of their beliefs, criticism is warranted, particularly when these beliefs affect others. At this point, criticism and ridicule of the person should be expected.
Certainly this makes sense to me. Inversely, if public spectacles of belief inspire people to act selflessly, face adversity without fear, and answer questions that science cannot, they are just as likely to warrant praise as other spectacles may warrant criticism. It works both ways. That's what freedom of expression is all about.

Though it may blind some to what science considers fact, religion does have some key advantages. For one, most religions provide a quick moral compass. (eg. WWJD?) A scientific mind may arrive at a social Darwinistic point of view and act purely out of self-interest. Other routes might be to try to maximize hedons and minimize dolors in a society or try to figure out the pertinent Kantian categorical imperative. Oy! That would wear you out trying to figure out how to act.

A second advantage is the ability to dissolve the ego in critical situations. By believing there is something more than meets the eye, mental faculties can relax during times of stress, in some cases allowing the believer to overcome that stress. Some athletes pray before the big game to help them be prepared to go "in the zone". Again, this isn't exclusive to religion and I'm sure atheists could certainly perform such feats. But I do believe that religion provides a predisposition for such mental states. (eg. AUM).

Finally, for the individual, religion can provide hope and relieve fear of death. Maybe in the case of extremists, that's not such a good thing, but for everyday people who lose their loved ones, it is a powerful coping mechanism.

Reality is what is believed. The inner reality of a person cannot be measured by scientific means. It can only be experienced directly by the individual. If the individual believes there is more beyond his senses, then there will always be an element of mystery that keeps people striving to become more than they are. Certainly, this does not preclude atheism but religions often provide a quicker means to that end. This does not mean we should avoid scrutinizing beliefs just because they are of a religious nature. We don't believe the sun revolves around the earth anymore. Beliefs that are scientific in nature get scrutinized, after all. But in areas where there is no observational evidence to invalidate a belief, especially those of an inner nature (eg. morality, sense of self, belief a the greater power, hope), there should be temperance and respect on all sides.


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Old 11-01-2006, 04:58 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Oh, but we do have holidays, even apart from New Year's Eve, Constitution Day and Midsummer Night. We just hijack the celebrations you guys originally hijacked from the atheists - you know, such as December the 25th?
No, that's the pagans not the atheists.

Early Christians made sure their important rites and holidays were timed roughly around those of the big pagan Sabbats that were observed, as people were already set to get all festive, and when you get Romans drunk enough they stop caring about what they're celebrating. Christmas was moved to December (21st being the winter solstice, 25th being Jesus's new birthday), Easter was in April right around the spring equinox, etc. And before anybody works themselves into a lather over Jesus's birthday, just remember that in Israel, livestock don't give birth in the winter.

And just to let people know where I'm coming from religiously, I'm technically pagan by marriage, although I consider myself more of an agnostic liberal humanist. My wife will describe herself as a witch (although not to her Irish co-workers, for obvious reasons), and she and her sister and close friends had their own little coven going in BC before we moved to Ireland. When we first met, I really thought it was pure nutball stuff, but I've come to respect it as much as any other religion out there. Which really isn't a whole lot, but it's just one of those things Mrs. Mace and I have learned to agree to disagree on.


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Old 11-02-2006, 10:24 AM   #49
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Quote:
Should we moderate free speech with respect for religious opinion and belief?
Should we moderate "religious speech" with respect for different or non-religious opinion and belief?


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Old 11-04-2006, 06:05 PM   #50
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Old 11-05-2006, 11:33 PM   #51
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If the first amendment is to have any meaning, then religious speech and expression cannot be proscribed any differently than secular speech. So, just like I can't go into a crowded movie theatre and yell "FIRE!!", neither can I go and try to incite people to burn down abortion clinics or stone the local prostitutes (w/rocks, not weed ) w/o there being legal repercussions. On the other hand, like in SW's example, if someone decides they want to bend my ear about their religious beliefs, I merely need to excuse myself from that person's presence or explain that I'm really not interested. Or, if I want to really be a dick, tell em to F off. Of course a very passive-aggressive way would be to completely shut them out by using an ipod or walkman.

But as I stated before, there are no obvious prohibitions in this country about ridiculing religious belief. Forums abound for people who detest or otherwise view w/contempt--amused or otherwise--religious beliefs. Also, people of religious faiths, like their secular counterparts, have as much right to try to influence the laws of their nation. As the US is still more or less a democratic republic, EVERYONE who is eligible (>18) has a right to vote to see their view represented in the laws of the country. BTW that doesn't mean that they have the right to make their will law, just to vote for people they believe will represent their particular point of view and encode it in law.
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Old 11-06-2006, 04:09 PM   #52
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And don't post while under the influence of, well, anything. I recently discovered a thread I did not remember having posted, and it turned out I had typed it out while "high" on a sleeping pill I had taken.

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Old 11-06-2006, 07:42 PM   #53
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For the second--ridicule is neither necessary nor effective in fostering debate, no matter how hilarious some of the spoofs/'art'/Onion articles/cartoons are. What do you gain from ridicule that you can't gain from a reasonable debate?
A good joke very often gets peoples' attention far more easily than a serious article. Of course it has its downsides, but it also definetley has its positives.

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Old 11-08-2006, 12:41 PM   #54
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It might surprise you, DE, but I basically agree with you here. Sometimes it's necessary to spark interest in a subject via humor to get people talking about it. Especially if it's one that has been through the mill (think also abortion, war, etc...) a number of times and seems exhausted. Once the discussion begins, then people may want to be more circumspect in how they handle the issue.
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Old 11-27-2006, 04:40 PM   #55
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As a side note, I'm surprised not even SkinWalker has brought up this yet. I think it illustrates the controversy inherent in religious criticism pretty well (I just love Kain's posts in that thread).


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 11-27-2006 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 11-27-2006, 06:26 PM   #56
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^^Hahahahahahaha!! Oh man, that was way too funny. I've got to go digging through the archives sometime.


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Old 11-27-2006, 07:01 PM   #57
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I've got to go digging through the archives sometime.
You should. There are lots and lots of good threads in there.

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Old 11-28-2006, 06:19 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
As a side note, I'm surprised not even SkinWalker has brought up this yet. I think it illustrates the controversy inherent in religious criticism pretty well (I just love Kain's posts in that thread).
I think I'll convert to atheism next April 1.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

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Old 11-28-2006, 06:58 AM   #59
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^^^ and I'll convert you to Christianity , When I get around to it.... lol
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:22 AM   #60
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Looking forward to seeing five subsequent "I've changed my mind"-threads come April 1st.

Heh, think I'm going to try it over at some other forum I frequent. GamingForums' "The Pub" sounds good. Come April 1st 2007, I'll be a determined Bush- or Israel-apologist, Catholic, Creationist, or a combination or some or all for a day.

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Old 11-28-2006, 04:33 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I think I'll convert to atheism next April 1.
Now that would be an interesting sight.

@DE, you'll post what you said here, won't you?


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Originally Posted by Sabretooth
We will be great failures one day, you and I
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:41 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Now that would be an interesting sight.
Think I can work up a melange of Russell and Dawkins with a smattering of Nietzche?


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

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Old 11-29-2006, 12:48 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Think I can work up a melange of Russell and Dawkins with a smattering of Nietzche?
Maybe, though I'd be happy to educate you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth
We will be great failures one day, you and I
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