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Old 03-01-2007, 08:41 AM   #41
Windu Chi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Game starts you choose an appearance and a class, but you don't get any attributes or skills because that is the stuff you don't like, they use messy dice.
You definitely don't know what I'm trying to say here.
I do like those aspects, they haves games called Action RPGs that have those, but the combat is action base.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
You watch the opening crawl... wake up on the Endar Spire. Trask enters and has his opening dialog, all is well until you have to open the door, since you dislike the game doing things for you, you have an intricate circutry diagram come up and you have to actually re-route the security to open the door...
So, RedHawke, I do like that, I have no problem with that, Oblivion(VERY POPULAR Action RPG), to remind you.
If I have a intricate circutry diagram come up and have to actually re-route the security to open the door, that will be fine with me.
But you know, they always can have gameplay options to negate that
task.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
You go down the hall and start the cutscene with the Sith Troopers having a fight with the Republic Troops. Since you have none of those dreaded health bars the combat drones on... and on... and on.
Drones shouldn't have health bars since they have no health.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Without health bars and the other neccisary things that the comuter uses for the game you can't die, neither can the NPC's. After 20 minutes of cutscene battle the rest of the players would simply quit the game call it what it is lame and move on.
Your sadly mistaken, your desperately trying to save dice combat.
You can die, in the game, with realism!
You are definitely, once again misunderstanding, RedHawke.
No health bar don't mean your are immortal, a stupid game that will be, and will really suck, don't you called that God mode?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Realism is fine but gameplay and story are more important.
Duhh!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
That is how RPG's work, please don't attempt to ruin a good thing with your ADD Button-Mashing ways. The AI didn't do the work you did by plotting your attacks, your success rate is indicated by a die roll. This is what RPG's are about. Even your so-called Action RPG's use some form of die rolls to operate.
What was ruin, was the combat in KOTOR I-II, the combat was a disgrace for true Jedi fans.
Dice cambat is a disgrace!



Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
"funner" is that even a word? Besides that is subjective, your ideas are certainly not "funner" to me.
Why would I care if it isn't funner to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Again this is subjective... does it even occur to you that everyone doesn't like button-mashing, some RPG players are physically incapable of playing them.
You are sadly mistaken.
If the button smashing(combat combos) is done right like, in Episode III: Revenge of the Sith the game, it will be very challenging and fun.
The dice combat days are number so give up, or continue to hold on to false hope.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
For someone in your obvious hard-line position about RPG's and the way they should work for you to find them fun, you ought to not call others close-minded.
I was talking about lightsaber becoming a real weapon one day; not discussing RPG's.

Last edited by windu6; 03-01-2007 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 03-01-2007, 11:42 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
TSL was too easy because the combat was computer controlled
LOL. That's ridiculous. If that were true, every traditional RPG out there would be extremely easy as well. Which of course isn't the case.

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Old 03-01-2007, 12:05 PM   #43
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TSL was too easy due to a bad AI, and poor balancing.

Enemies have to fight in an intelligent way, making use of feat abilities and items. Also, their damage potential should imo be increased, not their health bar.

Anyway, to the real-time action vs dice debate:

I have played many games, featuring both. And I like both systems. On the one side the reflex based fights, where you actually need dexterity and "skill" to defeat opponents, on the other side the dice-combat. Or probability. Dice is just, well a way to explain probability.

I like the combat in Kotor, because it requires no alertness. I can sit back in my chair and command the characters, then I let them fight. I want the animation to be good though, since I'm enjoying the action from a cineastic point of view.

I think both systems are good, but the story-driven, dialog based Kotor should definitly stick to the dice combat.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:07 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Prime
LOL. That's ridiculous. If that were true, every traditional RPG out there would be extremely easy as well. Which of course isn't the case.
Hey, you complained that the game was to easy.
Well, if you are talking about the puzzles and quests, then it wasn't that easy.
What difficulty level did you play TSL
on?
I play it on hard setting, that make it more changeling since the dice A.I. have to simulate more hits on your opponents, to kill them.
And your opponent A.I. seem to kill you with ease if your character attributes is not up to par respect to the hard difficulty setting.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:10 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
What was ruin, was the combat in KOTOR I-II, the combat was a disgrace for true Jedi fans.
Dice cambat is a disgrace!
To you, perhaps. But there are those of us who prefer the combat system in KotOR. Heck, there people who play it ONLY because it's turn-based combat. If you like button-smashin, good for you, but I don't want to play it - I want my RPG character to do well or badly in the game because of how I chose to build him and his stats and not because I'm good or bad at smashing buttons. That's what "role-playing" means to me. Otherwise my character would be little more than a graphical representation. I've played Jedi Academy only a few times. I've replayed KotOR and TSL over and over. The reason for that is fairly obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
If the button smashing(combat combos) is done right like, in Episode III: Revenge of the Sith the game, it will be very challenging and fun.
The dice combat days are number so give up, or continue to hold on to false hope.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong I might think you are. I see nothing on the CRPG scene to suggest that RPGs based on the principles of dice (which really just means random results based on probabilities of using certain skills) are anywhere close to going away.

But hey, if you like that so much, then there are certainly games for you. You seem to enjoy Episode III. Fine. Why, then, can't the rest of us keep KotOR the way we like it? It's not like there aren't alternatives out there for you.


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Old 03-01-2007, 12:18 PM   #46
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This is ridiculous. We all have our different opinions on this aspect of the game, and no one is either "right" or "wrong". Turn-base is more fun (not funner) and/or fitting to the KotOR series for some, and action is more fun and/or fitting to others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
the combat was a disgrace for true Jedi fans.
I don't really like you saying that I'm not a true Jedi fan just because I prefer turn-base (for the KotOR series) over action. You may think button mashing is more fun, but I don't. So let's just leave at that, k?


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Old 03-01-2007, 12:21 PM   #47
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After playing Asteroids and Pac-Man for a number of years, I believe I've gotten my button-mashing desires fully satisfied, and have quite happily moved on to the more mature RPG category. I'm even happy there's a mod out to get rid of the turret game in Kotor. I play games to relax, and I can't do that if I constantly have to remember "is it sequence 482 or 842 to defeat this guy?" I'm more than happy to strategize on the best way to kill the bad guy and enter the appropriate tactics into the queue, then watch to see how my strategies play out. These particular RPGs are for strategic thinking, not tactical thinking, and I like the games just as they are.

I would despise it if K3 combat was very different from K1/TSL. If I want to play an action game, I'll go play SW Legos with my kids.

If the difficult level is too easy, there are the re-balancing and hardcore mods for the games to make them insanely tough.


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Old 03-01-2007, 12:44 PM   #48
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Button-mashing vs. turn-based combat is an interesting debate and it's difficult for me to take a side because I like both. However I'm used to playing turn-based fighting in the Kotor series and that's how it should stay. The game however needs better fighting animations so it looks more like the movies. Instead of Health we should have Stamina, when you get hit you should lose Stamina but instead of actually getting hit the character should clumsily block it. When there is no more Stamina the next hit kills the character. That would still be the same system but would look cooler and would be more realistic.
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Old 03-01-2007, 04:33 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Hey, you complained that the game was to easy.
So you respond with an illogical comment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Well, if you are talking about the puzzles and quests, then it wasn't that easy.
I'm refering to combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
What difficulty level did you play TSL on?
All of them, and then some hardcore mods when I found the difficulty too easy with the normal game settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
I play it on hard setting, that make it more changeling since the dice A.I. have to simulate more hits on your opponents, to kill them.
My problem is that none of my opponents could hit me, and I would hit them pretty much every time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
And your opponent A.I. seem to kill you with ease if your character attributes is not up to par respect to the hard difficulty setting.
My opponents couldn't do anything against me. I was literally unstoppable. Boring.

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Old 03-01-2007, 05:03 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
All of them, and then some hardcore mods when I found the difficulty too easy with the normal game settings.
Well, use hard setting, try that out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
My problem is that none of my opponents could hit me, and I would hit them pretty much every time.

My opponents couldn't do anything against me. I was literally unstoppable. Boring.
Well, that must be a glitch.
Unless you are trying to make another point here.
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Old 03-01-2007, 05:28 PM   #51
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RPG's are not about button-mashing. If you want that, you're asking for an entirely different game. There are far more button-mash Star Wars games out there than there are RPGs, go play them instead.
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Old 03-01-2007, 07:32 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Well, use hard setting, try that out.
I have, as I mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Well, that must be a glitch.
Unless you are trying to make another point here.
No point. Just that I found the game easy without modifying.

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Old 03-01-2007, 08:49 PM   #53
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Hard setting is ridiculously easy. After playing many CRPG's and MMO's, I know how to build a character. This means that I could do ridiculous damage and still never get hit. On hard setting, I killed Darth Sion with no weapon. Just good old fists.

Seeing K3 turn into a live-action RPG would break my heart. KotOR 3 != Oblivion. It was designed around different principles and a live-action combat system simply does not fit. I play KotOR because it's relaxing (Hardcore mods fix that a little ) to be able to not have to be on my toes searching for every weakness. The dice system is perfect, it fits KotOR etremely well. There is no need for change. Jedi Knight is your star wars game for live action, please don't change the entire KotOR genre to something that isn't needed.


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Old 03-02-2007, 02:33 AM   #54
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So did i. It took me ages to finish as i found it harder than KOTOR, but without using mods i managed to finish it fine.
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Old 03-02-2007, 03:16 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
You definitely don't know what I'm trying to say here.
Oh, I do indeed know what you are trying to say here... hence my post.

While my examples are an obvious extreme of your suggestions they are exactly what you are advocating.

The rest my above colleagues have already covered.

My favorite of them is this statement;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
But hey, if you like that so much, then there are certainly games for you. You seem to enjoy Episode III. Fine. Why, then, can't the rest of us keep KotOR the way we like it? It's not like there aren't alternatives out there for you.
Words of wisdom windu6... words of wisdom.


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Old 03-02-2007, 08:31 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
*Snip*

Again this is subjective... does it even occur to you that everyone doesn't like button-mashing, some RPG players are physically incapable of playing them. What about them... why must you insist in taking away their favored game style for your vaunted button-mashing?

*Snip*
Well stated RedHawke. GRPG like the KotOR series have an older male and larger female fan base.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
To you, perhaps. But there are those of us who prefer the combat system in KotOR. Heck, there people who play it ONLY because it's Qui-Gon Jinnturn-based combat. If you like button-smashin, good for you, but I don't want to play it - I want my RPG character to do well or badly in the game because of how I chose to build him and his stats and not because I'm good or bad at smashing buttons. That's what "role-playing" means to me. Otherwise my character would be little more than a graphical representation. I've played Jedi Academy only a few times. I've replayed KotOR and TSL over and over. The reason for that is fairly obvious.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong I might think you are. I see nothing on the CRPG scene to suggest that RPGs based on the principles of dice (which really just means random results based on probabilities of using certain skills) are anywhere close to going away.

But hey, if you like that so much, then there are certainly games for you. You seem to enjoy Episode III. Fine. Why, then, can't the rest of us keep KotOR the way we like it? It's not like there aren't alternatives out there for you.
Well stated Jediphile. When I want Jedi combat like in the movies I play either JO or JA. When I want a deeper story I play the KotOR series. While I like action RPGs like the Gothic series and the Elder Scroll series. I just don't see that type of game fitting into the Star War Universe. The reason I say this is because to me besides the struggle between good and evil. The pillar of the Star Wars Universe is relationships. Whether its' Luke_Leia_Han or Qui-Gon_Obiwan_Anakin_Padame relationships. This is something that action RPGs cannot do.


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Old 03-02-2007, 09:09 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Oh, I do indeed know what you are trying to say here... hence my post.
No, you still fail to understand.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Words of wisdom windu6... words of wisdom.
I don't care what he said, why should care what he want?
I like KOTOR too, I just despise the combat.

Well, Let me make myself more clearer.

I don't want, I repeat, I don't want:

To get rid of the Attributes;
Strenght, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom & Charisma.

To get rid of Character skills; Computer Use, Demolitions, Stealth, Awareness,
Persuade, Repair, Security & Treat Injury
.
Or, I don't want to get rid of character feats either.

What I want is action combat.

What they should also do is input a gameplay option, realistic combat, that will satisfy those of us who want to turn health bars off.

To be fair, I would be happy with a gameplay option to turn off turn base combat,
for those of us who don't want the Computer A.I. to have all the fun in combat.
If they can do that, then they can keep that difficulty class; dice combat, probability combat, random combat, turn base combat or whatever they called it.
To satify those of you who love to see the computer A.I. doing all the hard work.

So, stop panicking that want to destroy, Character Skills, Character Attributes and Character Feats.

I love those facets, they just should add a Real Time combat( Action RPG option) gameplay option, to satisfy all of us.

If you are now still not happy, then fine then.

RedHawke!
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Old 03-02-2007, 09:13 AM   #58
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Physically incapable to play button mesh games? I guess when you've got an injured hand, that may be true, but, out of all people who played Kotor, how many are "incapabale" to play button mesh games...
0.2%?

And do Kotor like RPGs really attract the more mature, older people? Well i can give only personal examples, but no adult aged 25+ that I know would consider Kotor as "mature". Same for star wars.
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Old 03-02-2007, 09:23 AM   #59
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windu6, I played Fable's combat game, with stats and real-time action. Fable had a bad storyline, but its gameplay was worse. All I just did was run and hit, run and hit. That's NOT how a real battle is supposed to go. You go in close-combat, and you and the enemy BOTH attack each other.

Why do one have to hit and run? That's not the way of a warrior, that's the way of the coward.


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Old 03-02-2007, 11:55 AM   #60
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KotOR is perfectly fine the way it is, and it should stay the same. I like both Action and Turn-Base games, but KotOR is much better suited with turn-base. Not that action is less fun, but it doesn't belong in KotOR. There are plenty of Star Wars action game alternatives (RotS, TFU when it comes out, etc.). If you want to go nreak your keyboard smashing buttons, then go buy one of them.

And the majority of KotOR fans want it to stay the way it is. Remember the poll on this thread?


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Old 03-02-2007, 12:14 PM   #61
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel

And the majority of KotOR fans want it to stay the way it is. Remember the poll on this thread?
That poll is bias, it don't represent the opinions of every KOTOR fan in the world.
So, don't come to me with that mess.
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:48 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
I don't care what he said, why should care what he want?
Because doing otherwise breaks the unspoken pact that what we say here is taken seriously. You may not agree with me, and that's fine, but if you say that you don't care what anyone but yourself thinks, then it immediately prompts two questions:

1. If you don't care what I think (and I'm scarcely alone), then why should we care what you think?

2. If you don't care what anyone thinks, then why are you even bothering participating in the discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
That poll is bias, it don't represent the opinions of every KOTOR fan in the world.
So, don't come to me with that mess.
Meh. That sounds a bit to me like you're speaking for "the silent majority," which is always a bit too easy, since the "silent majority" will never tell you that you're wrong - they're silent, after all...

Sorry, but that's sophistry to me.


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Old 03-02-2007, 01:52 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
That poll is bias, it don't represent the opinions of every KOTOR fan in the world.
So, don't come to me with that mess.
The sales represent the opinions of the players.

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Old 03-02-2007, 09:34 PM   #64
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Its not like programming an NPC to notice your character is light/dark alinged is hard to do. they obviously did it with that lady who gets pissed if you show up with lightsabers in hand. Besides, it would be fun if the game was more interactive with your LS/DS allignment, heck, there could even be a neutral alignment.

I'd like NPCs who attack you/run away/give you stuff/get info from based on your alignment. yeah, your ugly when your dark sided, but does anyone other than the dancing coach care? no.
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Old 03-02-2007, 09:58 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windu 6
That poll is bias, it don't represent the opinions of every KOTOR fan in the world.
So, don't come to me with that mess.
Yeah, who wants to make a game that would sell lots of copies when they could make a game for one person?


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Old 03-02-2007, 10:14 PM   #66
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The dice rolls and turn based combat the single best points of KotOR Gameplay because they are what make it great. Look at the choreographing of the lightsaber duels. Seriously. If it was a button masher, combat would once again look like swing your lightsaber through the other guy's chest a thousand times to kill him.


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Old 03-03-2007, 08:22 AM   #67
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more on difficulty

Speaking of difficulty in KOTOR 1, 2 and (hopefully) 3 I think one shift would be very welcome; now (being rather somewhat of a noob) I'm not speaking about the purely technical part, which may prove a really tough obstacle, but it did annoy me very much, when the - alledgedly - more 'challenging' settings meant only boosting your enemies powers, hit points etc. Being a powerful Jedi / Sith you had to 'fight for your life' against each petty thug, simple grunt etc. Instead of boosting the powers of each enemy you encounter I would suggest 'simply' (knowing how hard this may be from the technical point of view) MORE ENEMIES AT ONCE. Apart from the vexed issue of reality, illusion and game conventions, it would simply make the gameplay more satisfying, as is slaughtering your enemies by dozens rather than one by one.
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Old 03-03-2007, 11:27 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by windu6
No, you still fail to understand.
Hardly... I only know what you type and from your posts, responses to others, and your contradictory claims and desires.

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Originally Posted by windu6
I don't care what he said, why should care what he want?
Jediphile stated a response to this already so I will stand by his remarks to you on this.

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Originally Posted by windu6
I love those facets, they just should add a Real Time combat( Action RPG option) gameplay option, to satisfy all of us.
There is no "satisfy all of us" in the world of game design. But I have replied to you as to why this is so in the past. You also don't spend prescious development resources on features only a slim part of the audience would ever use.

Also since you have already stated "you don't care" further conversation with you is moot.

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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
Physically incapable to play button mesh games? I guess when you've got an injured hand, that may be true, but, out of all people who played Kotor, how many are "incapabale" to play button mesh games...
0.2%?
Actually Velastraz, you misunderstood my meaning...

I was actually talking about things called arthritis, carpel tunnel, things called disabilities. Those are what I was actually referring to.

When designing a game like KotOR, a 'pure' RPG, you have to cater to a broader audience than the ADD button-mashers of the world, their type of game is not what RPG makers are making when designing a 'pure' RPG. They are not a broad part of the audience. They are actually a very small part of the audience.

For every Grand Theft Auto, there are also games like NWN and Baldurs Gate... games, just like movies, have things called genres... and your target audience is different than those for an 'action game' would be.

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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
And do Kotor like RPGs really attract the more mature, older people? Well i can give only personal examples, but no adult aged 25+ that I know would consider Kotor as "mature". Same for star wars.
'Pure' RPG's by design are for a broader audience... it really isn't about 'maturity'... whilst games like Grand Theft Auto and the others of their kin, called 'action' games are targeted at another type of audience.

Before you even start designing a game you have to indicate what your 'target audience' will be, sometimes the 'concept' already has an audience in mind. This indicates a major part of the types of 'features' you will need to include in said game project.


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Old 03-03-2007, 01:29 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by RedHawke


Jediphile stated a response to this already so I will stand by his remarks to you on this.
Of course you will stand by his remarks, you dice players stick together.
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Old 03-03-2007, 01:48 PM   #70
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Of course you will stand by his remarks, you dice players stick together.
Clearly you don't know the history between RedHawke and myself very well...

Frankly it's a historic event if we agree on something, and when I saw his comments here, I DID check to see if Hell had frozen over.


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Old 03-03-2007, 03:49 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by windu6
Of course you will stand by his remarks, you dice players stick together.
Actually a dice like approach is always better for a story-oriented rpg. Well there are many rpg that uses a bunch of randomization on hits and damage and such, that is no different from dice roll. And no, you are dealing damage in 9999 and the like doesn"t make it more/less realistic/unrealistic than the simple 1-20 dice rolling, or any types of modified dice rolling system for that matter. WEll the point is to relieve the actin related bitz to the AI so the player can focus more on the story, while not being totally out of the loop when it comes to combat.

Action rpg is nice, but different(zelda anyone). Yes puzzle solving and chopping and such is cool, but thats juet not what kotor is. In action rpg quite often you can finish much more powerful foes with skills alone. Technically if not for the driving GTA can be called an action rpg.
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Old 04-06-2007, 11:11 PM   #72
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The dice factor is pretty important for this kind of combat. Otherwise you'd just be swinging your saber around crazy like the Jedi Knight series.

The day and night idea is also good, but I think the transitions between the two should be longer than what you see in other games like Fable. Instead of hours passing in seconds, they should pass in minutes. That way, you won't be running from one side of a room to the other and it's already mid-day.


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Old 04-07-2007, 12:11 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by windu6
What was ruin, was the combat in KOTOR I-II, the combat was a disgrace for true Jedi fans.
Actually, this kind of combat IS for true Jedi fans and even true Sith fans because it requires strategy and thought about the best course of action. Button-mashing is for fans of enraged Dark Jedi that attack without thinking (like Anakin in Ep2 when he attacks Dooku by himself, only to be brushed aside like a ragdoll).

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
What they should also do is input a gameplay option, realistic combat, that will satisfy those of us who want to turn health bars off.

To be fair, I would be happy with a gameplay option to turn off turn base combat,
for those of us who don't want the Computer A.I. to have all the fun in combat.
If they can do that, then they can keep that difficulty class; dice combat, probability combat, random combat, turn base combat or whatever they called it.
To satify those of you who love to see the computer A.I. doing all the hard work.
Since this thread was originally about realism, I would like to say that in reality, this would NEVER happen. Its inefficient in both cost and time so no game developer would ever even consider such an idea.
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Old 04-07-2007, 12:10 PM   #74
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I think KOTOR 3 should be a bit more realistic. When I say realistic I don't mean getting hit once with a saber and dieing. I think the people in the city's should do more than just walk around, they should talk to each other express feelings and things like that. And what about night and day? Dantooine for example is always day, I don't know about you but it really starts to annoy me. Day and night should change like in Neverwinter Nights II. Also people should pay more attention to the fact that the character is a Jedi\Sith. I walk around the city with a robe and lightsabers in each hand and no one notices? These are just details but they're still important.
If it is moving to the HD scene of console gaming, it could very well be more realistic. I would love to see more interactivity aswell, however i wouldn't mind another game like the first Kotor which i absolutely loved.
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Old 04-12-2007, 08:14 AM   #75
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Fable has a greater sense of realism, ie the "people" react to you when you do things and interact with you more like run screaming if you are evil or exclaim how wonderful you are if you are good.
Exactly, it's what i would like to see a bit more of in K3. But if some people may have seen some videos for test levels on Fable 2 it seems way more realistic, definately what K3 should have. For example, in Fable 2, people react with you in a more "realistic" manner. Your choices effect you and others around you more seriously, the NPCs seem to have a mind of their own, giving a more "realistic" feeling about it. K3 should have something like it.


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Old 04-12-2007, 08:25 AM   #76
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Fable is a good example! the reaction of people if you do something is very realistic and in fable 2 it will be much better...I think for a game like K3 this is very important as well.


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