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Old 06-28-2007, 01:50 PM   #1
RellioN
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why do you have to be one of the extremes?

I don't like the light side where you have to be naďve and have to help people for no reason and I don't like the dark side because then you have to be some power junkie. I hope that the makers of kotor 3 will also make being a grey jedi interesting.
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Old 06-28-2007, 02:12 PM   #2
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In TSL being a grey Jedi was more interresting, partly because of Kreia, in keeping with the general moral ambiguity of that game. In terms of morality KotOR was definitely a lot more black and white, in keeping with the original trilogy. If BioWare does K3, I suspect it would resemble K1, but if Obsidian develops the next one(which is more likely) it would likely contain all the moral ambiguity of TSL.





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Old 06-28-2007, 02:41 PM   #3
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I really found some of the decisions that would keep you a grey jedi to be downright silly.


Seriously, the thing about the slave thing at Telos...

My choice would have been hold the male Twi'lek accountable for the money I spent to free the female.

Then there is the exchange thugs, excuse me but if they want to put a bounty on my head I'm going to do my darnedest to make them regret it. The idea is to go with a clear conscious.

Also there was no reason to stay grey, you could only get a prestige if you were dark or light.
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Old 06-28-2007, 03:52 PM   #4
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I think talk of absolutes is a little presumptuous. Even using OT as an example, Obiwan lied to Luke (not the most moral of actions) about the identity of his father. But even more importantly, the Jedi seem to hold a very morally relativistic pov. Seems that that's a pretty "gray" approach to life in general. Though Jolee is heralded as some kind of gray jedi here, he was really more of a lone wolf-nonconformist sort that didn't fit easily into a regimented hierarchy (ie. not a "puppet"). Yet his primary goal was still to serve the good (despite his cynicism), even if he had to color outside the lines in order to do so. And as far as TSL goes, Garfield is quite right to point out that sticking to the "middle road" would've denied you advancement to the master class, thus being counterproductive as a game strategy. Btw, isn't it interesting that the "good" jedi (force sensitives, to be honest) don't object strenuously enough when you commit evil deeds, just the verbal equivalent of a slap on the wrist. Seems if they were true jedi, you'd probably have to slay or jettison some of them outright if you choose the dark path (more K1 than K2, where the influence factor allowed you to actually corrupt them). Keep in mind, also, that both games allow you to play out your charachter somewhere in the "moral" middle and still win, thus not actually forcing you to pick either a predominantly light or darkside nature.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

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Old 06-28-2007, 04:49 PM   #5
SilentScope001
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To be, uh, quite fair, the Grey Jedi CAN become more powerful than the LS or the DS Classes, since, while they lack a prestige class, they do have a buffed up Pet Cyrstal to compenstae. Plus, one can drop to the LS or DS extreme, pick up a Prestige Class, then fall back to the Grey Side and get your buffed up Pet Cyrstal!

But, in the immortal words of Prime, "Gameplay is not canon." And you need to pick in Star Wars between good and evil. Shrugging your shoulders and saying, "Alright, I'll help this one lady out right now to gain some LS points, but later, I'll need to beat her up to go back down to Grey..." is, well, plainly werid. This is Star Wars, not real life.


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"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
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Old 06-28-2007, 06:14 PM   #6
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KotOR I: I usually end up light side, despite certain dark side acts along the way (Genoharadan side quests,etc.), but closer to the lower end of Light. Being Grey really isn't an option like it should be

TSL: Ha! The first two times playing through I never had the option to change my class (or make a party member into my Padawan for that matter) until I played specific extremes. I preferred to be a Grey Jedi for the most part, but now play predominately Dark


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Old 06-29-2007, 10:01 AM   #7
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This is something I'm with through and through. I'm bored sick of having to be a very good little boy or a menacing devil. Why can't I just play as me without everybody urging me to be either?

I hope they allow you to become a full-fledged Grey Jedi in KotOR3!


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Old 06-29-2007, 10:30 AM   #8
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I do as well it did feel good to be both evil and good but some times the middle path is better anyone remember what jolee was like.


"Savior, conqueror, hero, villain. You are all things, Revan… and yet you are nothing. In the end, you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone." Darth Malak
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Old 06-29-2007, 04:12 PM   #9
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A Gray Jedi prestiege class would be really cool. Actually one of the things I've always thought the games needed was lots more classes, both force using and not. I've always wanted to be able to roleplay as a force user who's a bit of an anti-hero but isn't necessarily touched by the dark side. The problem with playing "grey" in the games at the moment is that you have to do evil stuff just for the sake of it, to make up for your other good stuff.


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Old 07-01-2007, 07:52 AM   #10
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You could stay gray the whole time and try not to go either way, but eventually if you got strong enough you would draw attention to yourself anyway, from both the Jedi and the Sith, which could ultimately lead to your doom. Since your a Jedi anyway you've obviously been initially trained in the ways of the light side, so you would be expected to do the "good" thing.
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Old 07-01-2007, 09:07 AM   #11
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So, the question seems to be: What EXACTLY is a gray philosophy? Maybe you can get "gray points" for taking noninvolved actions. Using K1 as an example, instead of helping Sharina with the wraid plate or taking it from her, you basically tell her to go cry on someone elses shoulder {grayside points}. Seriously, though, using examples from either or both games, what actions would you have taken that would have propelled you along some neutral arc/path?


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

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Old 07-01-2007, 09:33 AM   #12
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I don't see how staying neutral out of everything is rewarding, this is all just matter of people not wanting to be good or evil. So how would the storyline end for a "gray-sided" character?

Example story ending:

Light-sided Jedi Master defeats the Sith and saves the Republic, and is considered a hero throughout the galaxy and treated well by all.

Gray-sided Jedi Master receives little to no attention for choosing not to help either the Jedi or the Sith, he is considered a coward by many.

How fun...

Or we can flip the story:

The Sith defeat and conquer the Republic, and tirelessly search for any remaining Jedi. They realize that there is a powerful Jedi who did not fight in the war. They fear he could challenge the power of the Sith, so they attempt to persuade him to the Dark side, but it does not work, and so he is killed to prevent him from being a threat.

Also boring.


I suppose you just act like everything went back to "normal" and you simply lived a peaceful life. But that would be a very boring ending and everything you worked so neutrally for meant nothing. When I beat a game I want it to feel rewarding, like it actually meant something for all that I worked for. A grey-sided Jedi would not reward that feeling.

Feel free to post any counter-scenarios, as long as they are realistic...
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Old 07-01-2007, 10:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Man_2423
I don't see how staying neutral out of everything is rewarding, this is all just matter of people not wanting to be good or evil. So how would the storyline end for a "gray-sided" character?

Example story ending:

Light-sided Jedi Master defeats the Sith and saves the Republic, and is considered a hero throughout the galaxy and treated well by all.

Gray-sided Jedi Master receives little to no attention for choosing not to help either the Jedi or the Sith, he is considered a coward by many.

How fun...

<... and so on>
Actually, there is a perfect possibility of a neutral hero who is not running away from a challenge. A general idea of a grey Jedi stems from the concept that he is a Jedi that wants to do good the evil way, or vice versa.

What you are describing is a Jedi practicing apathy. It is possible for both Jedi and Sith to practice apathy, but since we have seen none in Star Wars, people relate them to Jolee Bindo and grey Jedi.

Here's a scenario:

The Sith have ravaged the Republic, the Order has been demolished and only you remain. Here you can choose to be a good guy and beat the Sith, be a bad guy and beat the Sith (or join them), and there is a Grey Jedi possibility. This means that you beat the Sith not because the Sith are evil, or because they are weak, but simply because they are after you and you must survive.

This basically boils down to the idea that a Jedi is an average, ordinary grey guy with Force Powers. I think it is logical to beat the Sith Lords not because you want to restore the Jedi glory or because you want to be lord of the Sith. You might want to beat them because they'll hound you till stop them, or another reason like that.


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Old 07-01-2007, 12:57 PM   #14
SilentScope001
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Quote:
So, the question seems to be: What EXACTLY is a gray philosophy?
In K2, the main way to get on the grey side is to do LS actions but to extract as much credits as you can from the people you are working for. The LS actions you are doing and the DS bribing you show will cancel each other out.

Another way is the simple "do LS and then do DS". Help the old lady down the street, kick her to death. Why? I don't know. I really don't know why someone would RP doing that way. It sounds quite absurd.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 07-01-2007, 03:32 PM   #15
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I graywalked through most of K1 and K2. The character wouldn't waste time beating up little old ladies, but he'd never turn down a fight.


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Old 07-01-2007, 03:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
In K2, the main way to get on the grey side is to do LS actions but to extract as much credits as you can from the people you are working for. The LS actions you are doing and the DS bribing you show will cancel each other out.

Another way is the simple "do LS and then do DS". Help the old lady down the street, kick her to death. Why? I don't know. I really don't know why someone would RP doing that way. It sounds quite absurd.
Well, that was one of the options. You "persuade" her that 1/2 of something is better than nothing. But if you're basically holding someone up that's in need b/c you want more credits.......that would appear to be a greedy DS action, and the good lord knows that npcs like Bastila can't shut up about that kind of thing. Technically, the above example is doing the DS/LS flip to cancel one another out. Also, it's actually extortion, not bribery. If the devs made it so that they dangled more $$ in front of you as an option, that might be closer to bribery.

Also, if you're fighting for self-preservation, that would seem to work either DS/LS. How then do you work it so that somehow one fight is GS, another LS and another DS or even nothing? Do you set it up like... Sith: Lord Malak will be pleased... PC: I'll kill all of you, and any jedi too, that get in my way (GS points)? Seems kind of cumbersome.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 07-01-2007, 05:34 PM   #17
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No one thinks that there should be "gray side points" Totenkopf. It's just that some of the solutions to the moral issues could stand to be a bit more ambiguous. The way both games were set up, you nearly always either end up being a saint, or a Judas, and there's not much middle ground - and if you do aim for a neutral alignment, you don't get a very realistic roleplaying experience...

As for fighting for self-preservation, it's true that genuinely neutral responses are sometimes harder to implement, but come on; this is what great writing is all about. Your response in your example was cumbersome because you intended it to be.


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Old 07-01-2007, 06:24 PM   #18
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Perhaps you could provide concrete examples of what constitutes a grey side choice and how they'd change the manner in which mastery is achieved for a LS/DS/GS pc. Mostly what's being thrown around is "I want more grey in the game", but no thought as to how it should be achieved. I'm not advocating GS points so much as saying that that's how mastery of LS/DS is determined in the games. Why don't you take a few incidents from KOTOR and TSL and demonstrate what the grey solution would be and how its sufficiently different from either LD/DS. Perhaps it can be done, but the approach I'm seeing here is akin to hiring someone to fix your house, but not telling them what you want done much beyond..just fix it. They could do it, but you might not like the result. So, let's see some CONCRETE examples.....


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 07-01-2007, 09:55 PM   #19
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While understand Kreia being gray. I think that that Bioware screwed up making Jolee a gray Jedi. To me the only force users that should really be gray are the Younglings. You never hear Yoda warning anyone about falling to the "gray" side. Just because you are not a member of the Jedi does not mean that you cannot be a light sided force user. For being gray, Jolee certainly does have a light side outlook. From wanting you to rescue the Tachs, defending Sunnry, and opposing you if are dark side coming off the temple summit, his hints about Zaalbar's father, ex cetera.

The movies are about the forces of good and evil not the gray side.


Not all those who wander are lost.-J.R.R. Tolkien

I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it but by it I see everything else - C.S. Lewis
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Old 07-01-2007, 11:41 PM   #20
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It's kind of hard not to choose a side in KotOR 1 and 2 seriously, you end up having to choose one side or the other. Either embrace evil or oppose it, it could be argued that doing nothing is also dark.
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:49 AM   #21
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Spot on, GarfieldJL. Even if you agree to help for $$, you're still helping. You have chosen to do the right thing for the wrong reason, perhaps, but have chosen a side anyway.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 07-02-2007, 04:49 AM   #22
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Well, I think grey side is more like LS people who do not over-dramatize on their LS actions, or DS people who are not DS enough. Well, that is also how the game does it.

It is defintiely not DS if you help someone out and ask for some small payment in return(not the big ones that would bleed someone dry) And if anything I think such actions still deserve a bit of LS points. Well, unless you beat up the poor folk for not being able to pay up.

Same goes for the guy who would ask the thugs to stop hurting some old folk and jump down the cliff. Well that is quite a DS action, since such manupilation is definitely not necessary, and more for the fun of the funny kill than anything. So it is a DS action using "help" as an excuse. Well, probably still less DS than randomly dumping someone down the cliff, but still pretty bad.

Granted, I never see accepting the challange of a fight to being DS, despite how some sections of the game puts it that way. Yes, finding a way to avoid conflict would probably give you more LS points, but accepting a fight which may cause enemy casualty is... just that. It should not be LS. Now, spikeing up an enemy for a fight though, would probably be DS.

As for me? Well, there are those who use the force as a day to day tool. Granted, most of them have only minor force powers. Those people are probably more grey side than any jedi/sith related beings. Remember, some people would just be more than happy to use their force power in those little ways, without the hassle of developing it into something big. I mean, if I know any telekinetic powers I would be really happy if I can change the channel without finding that darn tv control, and not running around helping people in bright red tights, nor stealing a bunch of cakes from a store. I think the whole DS/LS thing only applies to people who would use their force powers in big ways, and with the willingness to develop it into something more. Basically the more powerful you are, the easier you are to sway to the sides, be it DS or LS. But yet there must be people who would just develop the power for use with more mundane needs, without the overtone of those DS/LS related cults, be it jedi/sith/jenassary/naddists/white-current/otherwise.

I mean, it is stupid to say that taking out the garbage with the force is the darkside, and using it to sort out the recyclable being the light side.

SIDE NOTE: Well, I also think that being mean and evil as a force user does not turn you goth(or worse, ugly) Its they way you overtax your body that causes the side effect. Thats why zannah and such do not even though she is definitely DS.

Thing is, being grey usually won't archieve something great, well not without a person of a more extreme LS/DS tendancy to lead you. And in a game you are playing THE ONE, be it good or bad. Games are more fun if things are mroe dramatic. Lots of Drama, lots of Karma, lots of Fate.
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:51 PM   #23
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Perhaps GS points can be achieved by saying "No, I would rather not get involved." to every single person you come across. Although that would be a very boring gaming experience, that is about as gray sided as you can get. Jedi and Sith are trained for a reason, and being gray sided isn't apart of it.
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Old 07-02-2007, 01:12 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Man_2423
Perhaps GS points can be achieved by saying "No, I would rather not get involved." to every single person you come across. Although that would be a very boring gaming experience, that is about as gray sided as you can get. Jedi and Sith are trained for a reason, and being gray sided isn't apart of it.

That could still be considered darkside or lightside depending on the situation.
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Old 07-02-2007, 01:35 PM   #25
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Well, if you don't get involved in ANYTHING, then there would be no game. You would be like role playing a bum in the pazzak den?
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Old 07-02-2007, 01:37 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
That could still be considered darkside or lightside depending on the situation.
Exactly. Either way, no matter how you view your character personally, you will be viewed as either good or evil by others, even if it's only slightly.
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:36 AM   #27
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I view Jolee as "grey" in game mechanics only, meaning he can use either side's effects without a cost penalty. He hates the extremes of either side, but he himself urges lightside actions and turns against the player when the DS ending is chosen at the temple top confrontation. A true grey would have said "fine, your choice" and walked away.

Being 100% neutral (grey) is a slippery stance, because it often comes across as being more darksided than neutral: refusing to help a man being attacked, not interferring with local politics even if there is obvious corruption, allowing an infestation of kinrath to continue to flourish; a "grey" would walk by these things, while a lightsider would help and a darksider would make things worse...or ignore the situation. Ignoring it puts the grey's (non-)actions into the same result category as a darksider...it appears that the person condones this activity by doing nothing about it. Take a look at the Council's decision to stay out of the Mandalorian War: they were being neutral in that instance, but it is viewed as selfish and uncooperative (DS traits), and those that helped (LS) are hailed as heroes.
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Old 07-03-2007, 01:44 PM   #28
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Oh, yeah. Revan and Malak were real lightsiders. Up until the point they launched an invasion of the Republic with their traitor fleets. The Council was not following the Dark Side there, they weren't willing to get involved because they sensed something worse on the horizon. And they were right.
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Old 07-03-2007, 02:18 PM   #29
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Wouldn't it be more likely a Greysider would want a strict balance in the Universe? (i.e. Druid-like views...)

To be Grey is to accept a balance between extremes (light/dark) and to help maintain that balance. So, it would be perfectly normal for a Greysider to "switch" sides from time to time. No action is sometimes the best action, but when one extreme overwhelms the other, it's time to restore the natural balance...

That's generally how I prefer to play RPG's... as a Neutral party. I wouldn't take an unarmed opponent's life, but I would throw them a vibroblade before fighting. I would only steal from the rich, but only if it benefits the poor. I don't believe in cruelty, but I wouldn't think twice about gutting someone preying on the weak.


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Old 07-03-2007, 03:08 PM   #30
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More like, A greysider would want HIS BALANCE on the galaxy. Whatever it is it would be HIS view of balance. Jolee's balance tilts a bit to the light side, yes. But this may also due to Jolee sensing Revan being a former darksider and want to keep him from that extreme?
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:20 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Agent Xim
Wouldn't it be more likely a Greysider would want a strict balance in the Universe? (i.e. Druid-like views...)

To be Grey is to accept a balance between extremes (light/dark) and to help maintain that balance. So, it would be perfectly normal for a Greysider to "switch" sides from time to time. No action is sometimes the best action, but when one extreme overwhelms the other, it's time to restore the natural balance...

That's generally how I prefer to play RPG's... as a Neutral party. I wouldn't take an unarmed opponent's life, but I would throw them a vibroblade before fighting. I would only steal from the rich, but only if it benefits the poor. I don't believe in cruelty, but I wouldn't think twice about gutting someone preying on the weak.
Either way you're still picking a side at any given point, and there is a difference between "balance" and "neutral".
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:00 PM   #32
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Many of the wisest Jedi in the Star Wars universe came to relise that restricting yourself to what is uniformly believed to be "light" or "dark" limits you in more than one way. If memory serves me correctly there was a Gray Jedi Master named Vergere who was a prominate figure during the war with the Yuuzhan Vong. Some of her actions during the war aided the Galactic Alliance while others aided the invading Yuuzhan Vong. Aiding the Alliance would traditionally be considered "light-sided" while helping the invaders would be considered "dark-sided". However, in the end, thanks to her actions, both sides of the conflict survived the war and eventually reached a peace agreement.

To discuss moral complications of this nature is tricky, let alone fitting it into a video game. In terms of Star Wars and the Jedi, however, Grey Jedi are usually good, even if they don't follw the Jedi code. They follow their own morals and values. So, again its tricky. If someone is good but ignores the Jedi code, are they still light-sided?


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Old 07-06-2007, 09:01 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by JediGrandMaster
If someone is good but ignores the Jedi code, are they still light-sided?
Depends on what you believe is "good", and what isn't.
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