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Old 05-07-2008, 01:09 AM   #1
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Saber Attack Cycle (Stance Toggle Key)

Normally, one can switch stances by pressing their saberAttackCycle key which toggles in the following order:

Soresu->Shii-Cho->Djem-So->Juyo->Makashi->Ataru->Niman

Having all of those stances can make fighting troublesome when it comes to cycling through them for the right stance you desire. I strongly suggest that a key to toggle saber stances backwards be implemented, so if someone who has every stance switches from say Soresu to Shii-Cho to Djem-So, they can switch back to Shii-Cho without going through all of the other stances.


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Old 05-07-2008, 05:04 AM   #2
Maxstate
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We have a much better system already done for this problem, that will lessen the need for you to switch saber styles.

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Old 05-07-2008, 12:02 PM   #3
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yeah, and while this has annoyed me in the past aswell, we only have a few buttons left for adding additions to and you can already select the style you want anyways. Maybe once we have a finished version of this mod and a button left (way down the road).


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Old 05-07-2008, 12:16 PM   #4
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I disagree. If you don't want to clutter your controls you should specialize your stances and stick to the 3. I think of it as more of a natural balance to having too much. Less work for you guys and works fine. If you want 4 you gotta wait one extra cycle to switch, I just use 3 most of the time because I believe in efficiency. Less is more, y'know?
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Old 05-07-2008, 01:43 PM   #5
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I agree with Tapela.

However, I can see the desire to have more control over the style controls. As a low priority addition, it could be pretty easy to setup some server commands that switch to a given style directly.


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Old 05-07-2008, 01:51 PM   #6
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Tapela has it all figured out. Styles'll cost a shi'iteload of points in the next version, so unless you're just going to buy the styles and nothing else, you won't have any trouble with an over-abundance of styles.

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Old 05-07-2008, 04:44 PM   #7
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I think there should be a binding for each stance as there is a binding for every weapon. A reverse idea is good to, but you still cant get into a stance you want directly. When I lose alot of DP and start to die I either pull out God/Bow caster or switch to soresu. It would be alot nicer if I could have keys that could switch to my desired stance directly. I use juyo alot but when I start dying I need soresu but I dont want to cycle though other stances, however, I think it could be possible to script to a certain stance, if the downtime for stance switching is 0.
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Old 06-07-2008, 06:30 AM   #8
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True that:
Why should a mercenary with 10 different weapons stuck on his body be able to switch fast as hell, whilst someone who is trained to use a sword in 5 different ways can't just hold it in a specific manner unless he goes through every method to hold it that he has ever learned?

At the very least a backwards switch would seem nothing but reasonable.


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Old 06-07-2008, 08:17 AM   #9
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The one who is trained to use the sword five different ways is at a great disadvantage.

Get swap-happy with the styles in OJP 1.2, and you're bot fodder. At the Padawan difficulty setting. Believe me, been there, done that, got the t-shirt - you might get lucky like I did and take down three or four bots in the process, but humans, unlike AI, actually know what the hell you're doing, so style-switching isn't going to work against them.
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Old 06-07-2008, 11:13 AM   #10
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The one who is trained to use the sword five different ways is at a great disadvantage.

Get swap-happy with the styles in OJP 1.2, and you're bot fodder. At the Padawan difficulty setting. Believe me, been there, done that, got the t-shirt - you might get lucky like I did and take down three or four bots in the process, but humans, unlike AI, actually know what the hell you're doing, so style-switching isn't going to work against them.
Perfecting how you fight with one style and making sure you know the advantages and disadvantage of that style means the difference between life and death.

from what i tell theres 7 to cycle through if you manage to get them all, 2 of which have 2 versions depending on your lightsaber (dual, staff). I think 2 buttons is enough, making quick keys is necessary for force powers cause they need to be done in a split second, guns have quick keys cause theres so many...

2 keys, next and previous for lightsaber styles is best.


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Old 06-07-2008, 02:05 PM   #11
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I'm ambivalent about a next/previous saber style setup. However, I highly discourage using all styles, especially if you're a beginner. If you're picking up all the saber styles then you're probably deficient in various Force powers. Besides, it's pretty nuts to pick up a whole bunch of styles when you'll really ever be using a maximum of 3. If you can't parry in one style you'll probably be faring just as well if using another style (Soresu's perk depends on your ability to parry), and no amount of style switching will help you. If you switch to a style as a surprise factor, a human player will catch on and plan accordingly, and if they see you switching through lots of styles, they can figure out that you're probably deficient in some Force ability or other and use that to their advantage.


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Old 06-07-2008, 02:55 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Tanqexe View Post
I'm ambivalent about a next/previous saber style setup. However, I highly discourage using all styles, especially if you're a beginner. If you're picking up all the saber styles then you're probably deficient in various Force powers. Besides, it's pretty nuts to pick up a whole bunch of styles when you'll really ever be using a maximum of 3. If you can't parry in one style you'll probably be faring just as well if using another style (Soresu's perk depends on your ability to parry), and no amount of style switching will help you. If you switch to a style as a surprise factor, a human player will catch on and plan accordingly, and if they see you switching through lots of styles, they can figure out that you're probably deficient in some Force ability or other and use that to their advantage.
true but if someone chooses to use multiple styles, then they shouldn't have to suffer because of it. OJP is all about choice... last i heard.

we can discuss the pros and cons of different skill combinations sure but not really what i was wanting to do.

And I understand that light saber styles are a bit more expensive in skill points for the new version...


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Old 06-07-2008, 03:07 PM   #13
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Like I said, I'm ambivalent. I personally have no use for it, but that doesn't mean other people shouldn't be able to.

I never really said anything about pros and cons of skill combinations. I'm just saying that if you're insufficient at parries (as an example), then no amount of style switching will help you. If you can't break past someone's parries, then switching styles may only give you a marginal benefit; on the other hand, but if you're very good with offense to begin with, then you can fully capitalize on whatever perks that your current style utilizes. Better to have a solid foundation of basics before you start being a connoisseur of saber styles. Plus in practice, people tend to stick with 3 or less styles (incl. Shii-cho) for the most part. That's just from experience. Code-wise, yes, you can pick all the styles if you choose to. But just like in real-life practice of, well, anything, if you choose to learn a large number of styles, unless you're some insane prodigy you aren't going to get too far along in training compared to someone who's chosen to focus on merely 1 or 2.


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Old 06-07-2008, 03:24 PM   #14
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you said that if someone sucks at parrys then no skill combination is going to help them.. just random assault at people who want to use multiple styles. I think it is a bit biased.

you pretty much implied that its better to have a skill combination of only 3 or less styles, obviously skill points that go into a few styles can then go else where (force, guns). Im saying that im not going to discuss about the Pros and cons of skill combinations. i know that your ok with the next and prevoius keys

But perhaps i can say something about having lots of saber styles. If say perhaps someone does choose to use 5, 6 or 7 styles, they can use the styles advantages for what there meant for and then use other styles to make up for their disadvantage depending on the sitaution. jack of all trades can win in any situation if played smart, though its going to be tough without force powers and guns.. and it takes alot of skill to master the technique of fighting with every style... and of course the pain of switching through them.


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Old 06-07-2008, 05:11 PM   #15
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Um, no, that's not the meaning behind my statement.

The simple fact is that you have to be good at the basics - attack, parries, etc., before you can excel at using the perks of the styles in a practical manner. If you're not GOOD at the basics, how do you expect to be able to use those perks to the fullest?

And it is true that if you can't even parry, no style will help you. You'll be dead in less than 10 strikes regardless of the style you're using, even Soresu, because there are no perks that reduce the cost of blocks. Just an example.

It is possible to have 5-7 saber styles, but it's realistic in the sense that by the time you are able to, you'll already have a high skill point pool (gained lots of experience). At that point, you can probably have a decent Force power repertoire. That's not unreasonable. I am simply talking about the point where you're in the 30 to 80 skill point range. Others can take full advantage of you if you don't, say, invest in Absorb, or Grip 3, or Push 3, by level 80. You'll be bushwhacked all the way to the next Sunday because there are ways to attack you without being put in the range of your saber, and instead of buffing up your Force repertoire, you decided to invest in a crapload of saber styles early on.


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Old 06-07-2008, 05:38 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Tanqexe View Post
Um, no, that's not the meaning behind my statement.

The simple fact is that you have to be good at the basics - attack, parries, etc., before you can excel at using the perks of the styles in a practical manner. If you're not GOOD at the basics, how do you expect to be able to use those perks to the fullest?

And it is true that if you can't even parry, no style will help you. You'll be dead in less than 10 strikes regardless of the style you're using, even Soresu, because there are no perks that reduce the cost of blocks. Just an example.

It is possible to have 5-7 saber styles, but it's realistic in the sense that by the time you are able to, you'll already have a high skill point pool (gained lots of experience). At that point, you can probably have a decent Force power repertoire. That's not unreasonable. I am simply talking about the point where you're in the 30 to 80 skill point range. Others can take full advantage of you if you don't, say, invest in Absorb, or Grip 3, or Push 3, by level 80. You'll be bushwhacked all the way to the next Sunday because there are ways to attack you without being put in the range of your saber, and instead of buffing up your Force repertoire, you decided to invest in a crapload of saber styles early on.
not necessarily, force powers are balanced in a way in which you cant just die before you reach an opponent. most require you to be in high mishap or low DP or to be running to have effect, which saber combat still has to happen for that to be the case, investing purely in styles can be a great way to insure victory in every form of combat, as each style is good in each situation.

mastered saber defense means guns aren't a problem anyways..

and Ataru can be good to dodge ranged attack to close in on a opponent and so on, mostly you'll want to get in close fast, a strategy involved. Dont play risky, like go out in the open all the time... game doesn't force you to play risky. And as i said for beginners this is not a option... and most people wont do this... and it requires a person that knows all styles extremely well.

But you make it sound like taking many styles is pointless which it isn't..


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Old 06-07-2008, 08:39 PM   #17
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not necessarily, force powers are balanced in a way in which you cant just die before you reach an opponent. most require you to be in high mishap or low DP or to be running to have effect, which saber combat still has to happen for that to be the case, investing purely in styles can be a great way to insure victory in every form of combat, as each style is good in each situation.

mastered saber defense means guns aren't a problem anyways..

and Ataru can be good to dodge ranged attack to close in on a opponent and so on, mostly you'll want to get in close fast, a strategy involved. Dont play risky, like go out in the open all the time... game doesn't force you to play risky. And as i said for beginners this is not a option... and most people wont do this... and it requires a person that knows all styles extremely well.

But you make it sound like taking many styles is pointless which it isn't..
Lol, let's just say, come on to a server when v1.2 gets released and play with Max, Rev, Hocs, or any number of vets. You using all styles, them using any single style of their choice. Best way to settle the argument.

Let's say you attack someone with any style of your choice, switch it up a bit, even. Parry, parry, lightning 3, lunge, grip 3, kill. You won't even have the chance to resist in any way because you've got most of your skill points invested in styles. Whoever killed you could simply have had Shii-cho, and only Shii-cho, and invested the rest of the points in high level Force powers.

Everything can sound like it could go one way or another from a person's opinion, but testing it on the battleground is when you realize whether your perception is true or not.

And for the recod, acrobatic evasion can be done well even without Ataru, it just so happens that for Ataru acrobatics is cheaper. One can employ the philosophy of Ataru while in Shii-cho style. Hell, it's even possible to employ the strategy of Soresu into Shii-cho style. One can employ the philosophies and strategies of any saber form into any of the styles - it just so happens that the perks are bonuses that reward you for a certain playing style. That's why I said that if you can't parry, even if you switch styles to Soresu you'll still die if the other guy has a superior offense. I can employ the Soresu form just as well while using the Juyo style, then utilize Juyo's perks in a sudden offense.

Unless you have an obscene skill point pool, your points are seriously better spent on just a few styles where the perks are suited to your playing style and combat strategy, then putting the rest in Force powers. It's not that getting all styles is pointless, it's just a better allocation of what skill points you have. At a high enough level, even in a duel setting where Force powers are prohibited, whoever has a better inherent understanding of basic attack and defense will outlast their opponent. And I guarantee you, if someone absolutely sucks at combos and parries, having 7 styles to use won't help them one bit. Sure, they're free to invest 50 points to get all the styles, but that's an extra 41-49 points that could've gone into saber def, ST, lightning 3, grip 3, protect3, absorb 3, push 3, etc.

What's most important is getting very good basics. After getting very good basics, figure out a number of strategies you can use for just a few styles (1-3), then try them out on the virtual battlefield. More time you spend figuring out how to best utilize just a few styles, the more second nature using those styles will be. You'll have a better chance in saber combat that way.

If you still don't believe me, well, let's meet on some server and have a go at it for 10 rounds.


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Old 06-08-2008, 07:12 AM   #18
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OK i admit that testing it out doesn't have a good success rate.... lol

but thats because Niman is useless.. don't get that faster FP regeneration, or am I...

hmm i seem to be better if i get level 3 saber defense... and lightsaber throw... i think that makes it a bit easier. I know the basics FFS,, hell i know how to get out of a frickin saber lock.. not many know that.


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Old 06-08-2008, 11:32 AM   #19
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Niman has decent attack damage and faster FP regen. I don't really use it much, but the weirder staff-derived attacks makes it useful to people who aren't used to fighting against it.

Knowing versus having the experience to use the basics well are two different things. One can read about sword fighting for the rest of their lives and it wouldn't mean squat if they didn't spend more time practicing than "knowing."


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Old 06-08-2008, 08:17 PM   #20
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Niman has decent attack damage and faster FP regen. I don't really use it much, but the weirder staff-derived attacks makes it useful to people who aren't used to fighting against it.

Knowing versus having the experience to use the basics well are two different things. One can read about sword fighting for the rest of their lives and it wouldn't mean squat if they didn't spend more time practicing than "knowing."
yes master jedi, I have knowledge, but you have experience. I have learned so much yet i have not felt, touched, seen... experience teaches us more than books and words ever can. I will meditate on this.

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Old 06-09-2008, 02:12 AM   #21
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This party's over.

It is done then.

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