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Old 10-21-2006, 10:29 AM   #41
wedge2211
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That was kind of what I was trying to say. The Consortium should be able to pick a ship at will and set it to ram/explode near enemy targets.


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Old 10-21-2006, 03:54 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Darth Windu
As DarthCarth pointed out, this is spam. Please do not do it again.

Actually I just had a new idea as well. How about instead of having a 'ramship' or something like that, the Consortium can 'upgrade' any of their ships, packing them full of explosives? So basically you've got a Consortium frigate that fights like any other ship. You then pay a certain amount (a percentage of original ship cost) to remove its weapons and pack it with explosives. Then, go into a battle and tell it to attack an enemy ship. Instead of firing, it moves as close as possible and detonates itself.

This removes the need for an obvious suicide-ship, gives the Consortium some more devious play options, and removes the need to have a big battleship which is unrealistic.

Thoughts?

An 'explosive ship' is actually a pretty good idea, much better than the 'ramship'. In a way, the Vegeance Frigates and the Aggressors already have this ability though.


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Old 10-21-2006, 04:40 PM   #43
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Yes but if their was a ship just dedicated to explosions it owuld be more powerful.


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Old 10-21-2006, 05:28 PM   #44
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Having the ability to disguise the kamikaze ship as any other vessel would give the Consortium a new level of sneakiness, though. And why not ram and explode at the same time? (Anybody see what happened to the Battlestar Pegasus last night? HO-LY crap!)

Here's an idea for implementation: What about a specialized transport ship designed to load other vessels with explosives? To the other factions, this ship would look just like a normal troop transport--totally innocuous and useless in a battle. It would have the special ability, however, of pulling up next to a non-hero Consortium vessel, docking, and loading it up with high-yeild explosives while the original ship's crew transfers to the transport for a quick getaway. The loaded ship now has one and only one purpose: to drive straight at an enemy formation and explode. All other attacks and abilities of that ship would be nullified.

This ability, I think, has the perfect blend of advantages and disadvantages. The Consortium could sneak any vessel it wants into an enemy formation and cause massive disruption and damage, perhaps elimenating key targets in the process, and the enemy would not be able to predict when, where, or how this would happen. On the other hand, the Consortium not only has to sacrifice a combat vessel to do this, but they have to load it up and send it on its one-way trip, giving the enemy a chance to intercept the bombship before it's fully loaded or take it down on its drive into their combat line.


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Old 10-21-2006, 11:44 PM   #45
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As Wedge noted, being able to make any ship into a suicide ship makes the Consortium even more sneaky, and keeps the enemy guessing.

However I would look more at the conversion to a suicide ship as being on a strategic level rather than the tactical level. After all, the modifications would be significant.

Oh yeah Wedge - could you please not mention Battlestar Galactica? Over here in Australia we've only just started Season 2, so I'd rather not know whats going to happen next, if thats cool. Thanks.


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Old 10-21-2006, 11:44 PM   #46
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I agree as long as it has limited manuvarability (so it would be instant death to naything some ships would have enough time to get out of the way)


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Old 11-13-2006, 08:59 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Darth Ablett
I was going to post something in this thread, but this pretty much sums it up. Great post, btw.

Imperial Star Destroyers should be better. I don't care about XML, I care about out of the box balance. For gameplay reasons, I'm fine with the Mon Cals having better shielding, and even the advantage of no specific hardpoint. The ISD should however, completely eclipse the Mon Cal in arnament and hull armour. Warship vs converted liner, you do the maths. In ship-to-ship combat, it should be no contest 1-on-1.
Actually, it's not that simple. The design of the Mon Cal cruiser was vastly superior to the ISD - mainly due to the fact that the Mon Cals are simply better designers and ship-builders than humans when it comes to cap ships. The ISD *never* 'completely eclipsed' the mon cal - even the imperials admitted to that. In actual fact, the mon cal was substantially tougher than the ISD due to it's design (redundant shields, compartments etc), and they were much more manueverable - partially due to their smaller size and better engines, but also due to the fact that Mon Calamari are just plain better cap ship pilots). The only thing which the ISD had over the mon cal ships was sheer firepower - it had more guns. Hence, I think the ISD in EaW should get more guns.

But at the end of the day, 'Warship vs converted liner' is inaccurate. 'Warship of inferior design vs converted liner of vastly superior design' is much more accurate.

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As for the Consortium, having powerful large ships is ok, but I think these should be grossly deficient in certain areas, or in limited supply. A full fleet of ISD analogues owned by 1 guy? I know gameplay > realism (fantasy story), but that's stretching it.
Yeah, I've hd enough of seeing two Mon Cals or, as I've just seen Thrawn and a vanilla ISD 0wned by those WTFPWNING-class battleships or whatever they're called...

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Old 11-13-2006, 06:09 PM   #48
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@ TearsofIsha's post: DooD I strongly disagree. A converted liner, even a great one will be inferior to a dedicated warship. The design of a Mon Cal was clearly inferior to the ISD as a warship not just because the Empire has unrestricted access to technology, whereas the Rebellion had to make their own/steal it/copy designs since the very best the Empire had was illegal in any one else hands. The design of the ISD was superior because of its shape. The wedge shape of the ISD meant that the forward facing weapons and weapons on its flanks had wide fire arcs and could focus more of its weapons forward. While sacrificing firepower to its rear they had great firepower in every other direction. The Mon Cal however had its weapons evenly distributed over its flanks and had a very narrow frontal firearc. Its widest arc is its flanks which meant it would have to use broadsides and expose its entire length to the enemy, whereas the ISD, unless outnumbered could always keep its most dangerous side pointed at the enemy.

In EVERY publication or game (except EaW) the ISD has always had better armour with the same shielding as an MC and with greater firepower. In a LucasArts guide to ships, written from an Imperial perspective it stated a fight between the two would result in an ISD victory but two Mon Cals would defeat an ISD.

Mon Cals were more maneuverable, no argument there, and had many redundant systems but it needed them to stay in the fight.

The Mon Cals themselves werent not much better if it all when it came to combat. They still only operated in 2 dimensions like battles on water, as evidenced by the design of their ships. It was written somewhere that if any species had the ability to fight three dimensionally as you can do in space then they would have an advantage.
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Old 11-13-2006, 07:07 PM   #49
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I agree, even in home world 2 a isd while it would tkae some hull damge because of weak sheilds would kill a mon cal cruiser through sheer fire power.


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Old 11-13-2006, 07:14 PM   #50
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The ISD has always been very very powerful going back to the days of X-Wing. The ISD's weakness was never weak shields, it was the generators being able to be destroyed, which was why they had so many fighters. In a cap-ship match they should win hands-down, and as it is, their one hardpoint is far too easy to get with bombers and anything else with mass-drivers and torpedoes. It at least needs two hardpoints.
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Old 11-14-2006, 04:18 AM   #51
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The idea of the Imperial-II seems to be a pretty good solution IMO if they leave the ISD in its emasculated state. I think quite a few people want to play this game and at some stage arrive with a few Star Destroyers that give a serious "Oh crap" moment to everyone else playing. EaW nails this 'Star Wars' feel quite often IMO, but I think either ISDs should pack more of a punch, or ISD-IIs should be implemented.

@TearsofIsha, that design point is fine, and I'm 100% cool with that. It's a good point. Give the Mon Cals stronger shields, and maybe speed. That's their speciality, and works for good balance.

However, I reckon the ISD should be the most powerful ship in the game in terms of weapons and hull strength, it is the flagship craft of a hugely powerful regime and a damn powerful one at that. This beast has serious flaws, but it should tear a pretty big hole in most things. Also, being a dedicated warship I would imagine it would be pretty well armoured, more so than a civilian ship (converted or not, well designed or not)


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Old 11-14-2006, 06:25 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Rust_Lord
@ TearsofIsha's post: DooD I strongly disagree. A converted liner, even a great one will be inferior to a dedicated warship. The design of a Mon Cal was clearly inferior to the ISD as a warship not just because the Empire has unrestricted access to technology, whereas the Rebellion had to make their own/steal it/copy designs since the very best the Empire had was illegal in any one else hands. The design of the ISD was superior because of its shape. The wedge shape of the ISD meant that the forward facing weapons and weapons on its flanks had wide fire arcs and could focus more of its weapons forward. While sacrificing firepower to its rear they had great firepower in every other direction. The Mon Cal however had its weapons evenly distributed over its flanks and had a very narrow frontal firearc. Its widest arc is its flanks which meant it would have to use broadsides and expose its entire length to the enemy, whereas the ISD, unless outnumbered could always keep its most dangerous side pointed at the enemy.
There's advantages to the wedge shaped design, no doubt there, but the overall design of the ISD is deeply flawed, and there's a fairly simple reason why - I'll give you a clue, read the Fall of Reach Halo prequel novel, when the Elite is thinking about human design of ships. Or, better, watch ROTJ and ask yourself why it is possible for a 10-meter long fighter can take down an 8000 meter long warship. Why? They've stuck the most important part of the ship into a big bullseye turret. Yeah, it's got the shields and whatever, but it's still a terrible design move that was blatantly done due to the Empire's obsession with psychological warfare. Bear in mind you are talking from an Imperial perspective, who always assumed they knew better than other races. The imperials may have been advanced but they designed for brute force and often left massive weaknesses in design due to arrogance - i.e, like the convenient torpedo-shaped heat vents of the Death Star 1.

Home One had this flaw to a lesser degree, but could afford it due to their shielding, and other cruisers didn't have this flaw at all.

Quote:
In EVERY publication or game (except EaW) the ISD has always had better armour with the same shielding as an MC and with greater firepower. In a LucasArts guide to ships, written from an Imperial perspective it stated a fight between the two would result in an ISD victory but two Mon Cals would defeat an ISD.
Yes, imperial perspective. Imperial perspective also would state that Death Stars would eliminate any sort of rebellion through their mere presence. Imperial perspective would have stated that using a half finished death star would have been a sure-fire way of destroying rebellions and ensuring Imperial victory. Imperial perspective stated that nonhumans like Thrawn were no good for serious actions and best shifted off into the Unknown Regions, while leaving the safety of the Emperor in the hands of 'better' human officers like Piett.

Imperial perspective is very rarely right, and has more to do with ego than anything else.

In any case, things like the Guides to Vehicles and the Star Wars technical manual mention that the combination of redundan systems and superior pilots meant that the extra size of the ISD counted for very little.

Quote:
Mon Cals were more maneuverable, no argument there, and had many redundant systems but it needed them to stay in the fight.

The Mon Cals themselves werent not much better if it all when it came to combat. They still only operated in 2 dimensions like battles on water, as evidenced by the design of their ships. It was written somewhere that if any species had the ability to fight three dimensionally as you can do in space then they would have an advantage.
It specifically states in the Star Wars technical manual that the fact that only Mon Cals could pilot their cruisers was a blessing in disguise for the Rebellion, since they proved to have a "great, innate talent for starship piloting and could get amazing speed and grace out of vessels humans would have considered to be unwiedly".

Plus the fact that they came from a waterworld. When you're underwater, you *have* to think in 3 dimensions.

As for the business about ISD-IIs... yeah, that might work. The timeline would fit, more or less.
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:19 AM   #53
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Yes the bridge is a target, but so's Home One's. The game mechanics here really de-emphasized shields to great extent. It's good to take out hardpoints and I really like it, there's just a greater proliferation of weapons that bypass shields than really makes sense in the game. If you have equal relatively equal shielding, better firing-arc, and more firepower, as well as a significant fighter-screen to protect you from the shield generator attack, it really should come out way ahead. Also, if the destruction of the executor weren't more of a freak accident, how long would it have been before the rebels just had dedicated rslaved ramming-awings?
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:23 AM   #54
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Rust_Lord's point about dedicated warships versus converted liners is an excellent one. ImpStar's should totally blow Mon Cal's out of space in one-on-one matches just based on that fact.

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At that close range we won't last long against those Star Destroyers!


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Old 11-14-2006, 11:08 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by wedge2211
Rust_Lord's point about dedicated warships versus converted liners is an excellent one. ImpStar's should totally blow Mon Cal's out of space in one-on-one matches just based on that fact.
Bad quote. Ackbar was outnumbered at least 10-1 when he said that.

And without wanting to take things to far, simply being a warship doesn't make something automatically better. If you put a 17th century warship up against a cruise liner with a tomahawk battery, which do you think will win? I realise there's a bit of exaggeration here, but the tech behind the Mon Cal is further along than the ISD. That's why the republic started using MC90s after the war.....
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Old 11-14-2006, 03:09 PM   #56
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Yeah, but after the war they would have been manufactured as dedicated warships. Superior engineering and backup systems make things work a bit longer when there are holes in the hull, but do not negate the actual holes.
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Old 11-14-2006, 07:05 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Naso
Yeah, but after the war they would have been manufactured as dedicated warships. Superior engineering and backup systems make things work a bit longer when there are holes in the hull, but do not negate the actual holes.
Yes using the latest 'liberated' imperial tech! :P The fact the New Republic continued to use 2 captured ISDs tells me they werent that crap to simply melt down and make hydro-spanners out of.

Im not saying that the mon cal is a bad ship. Its a testiment to the skill of the mon cals that they could take a ship designed for cruising/space exploration and beauty, and turn it into something capable of going up against the pinnacle of galactic military technology.

Any capital ships bridge, unless embedded deep with the hull, which no SW ship to my knowledge is designed in such a way, is vulnerable. A mon cal is equally vulnerable to a gutsy TIE Bomber pilot. Naso was DEAD right about how shields are downplayed; I believe not just in this game but other games as well (in the simulator series the shields recharge at a ridiculously slow rate if at all!) If the shields on the cap ships reflected the strength they had in the movies they would take half an hour to give out; thats about how long the space battle of endor went for with caps ships. Once the shields are down these ships take serious damage so shields were VERY important; and another point; from all the info about SW tech ive read each ship has two types of shielding, particle and ray, which stop energy and physical impacts; which is why I was surprised playing EaW for the first time and seeing torps go straight through shields.

As for Imperial doctrine; the Death Stars never really got the chance to prove they could subjugate resistance by their mere presence because the rebs blew them up straight away! If the first death star had of survived and it arrived on another planets doorstep, after the Alderaan demonstration, im sure the populace would be singing the praises of Palpatine even if they hated him. The Imps were able to achieve this to a lesser extent because of their 25000 or so ISDs. Power Projection. Folks in the US should know what I mean, thats basically what your carrier fleet does. The half finished death star - if the rebs didnt close in with the Imperial fleet they would have been picked off one by one. The fact that they DIDNT take out the rebel flagship first go like I would have shows their arrogance and that they thought the rebel attack was a non event; and Thrawn; well its lucky he was in the outer rim and not working directly under Vader because the man had a temper and all it would take was for Thrawn to screw up a couple of times, or once in a big way and he would have been dead too. Working for Vader was a very dangerous assignment and not worth the rapid promotion prospects me thinks.

One last thing; I know thanks to X-wing and the scene in ROTJ everyone thinks the shield generators are atop of the tower however these were originally stated to be sensors, which makes more sense. It would be a retarted design flaw to have such important systems so vulnerable, although If these were indeed shield generators the designers may have thought the ISDs shields would be enough to protect it long enough for the ship to deal with its attacker(s). I have seen diagrams and blueprints stating these are different things but the only way we will get a definative answer, if you dont believe what someone from ILM said who probably talked to Lucas about it, is to ask Lucas himself. Check out this link and pay particular attention to the Cinefex Proof section. http://www.theforce.net/swtc/towers.html
The destruction of the globe infers the shields have been taken out but it may also just represent the massed attack on the Executor by the Rebels. What else could they blow up or off the Executor to show it was getting hammered??
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:48 PM   #58
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Perhaps about the towers. As a kid though I got all the little Lucas Arts tech dealies that emphasized the role of the fighters in protecting the towers. It doesn't make sense, but it was sort of fun, and would have been balanced if the cap-ships in the x-wing games hadn't been so completely underpowered against fighters, (and too small). The whole xwing series did go back and forth on whether you could destroy parts of ships before their shields were down. Didn't happen in XvT I believe. That the executor was big enough to need multiple shields so that you could concentreate on the bridge-shield makes sense to me though. Basically, I just really want the ISD to be powerful, and it wasn't until the new republic that they could make ground-up dedicated warships. Home One was supposed to also be exceptional in shielding if I recall, and larger than other mon cal's to be a carrier sort, rather than a direct battleship.
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:58 PM   #59
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The isd should be made but first the isd should be made the second most powerful capital( the reason for making the isd 2 was to counter the war ship mon cal designs[none were present at the battle fo endor]).

Also even with caon support they need to be better for the sake of balance sure i could wait for tech elvel 5 get the executer but that puts a reliance on that that ship which no faction should have.


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Old 11-15-2006, 07:41 PM   #60
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Yes the Imps got a rude shock at the fighting power of Mon Cal and its squadrons, since lets not forget how important star fighters were to rebel tactics. Even if they were not as powerful as in the simulator games fighters still did most of the fighting. Mon Cals would have always had other ships in support too, not simply floating around on their own, and to lesser extent ISDs, so an ISD and a MC in a straight fight would not have been common. With its supporting ships and starfighter dominance one Mon Cal would be a threat to an ISD. I find the executor still fairly weak. Its shields are not very strong and its hardpoints are spaced far enough that you can deal with them before the hulk lumbers close enough to bring multiple weapons to bear.

Ill say one thing that sprung to mind about the rebs using the Mon Cal as a basis for the MC-90 etc....given the psychological factor as spoken about, even if the ISD was vastly superior, would it have looked good for the New Republic if they started cruising around in one of the Emperor's greatest terror weapons, a vessel symbolic of the Empire known for decimating worlds? Hardly. Thats some bad PR.

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Old 11-15-2006, 09:48 PM   #61
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Nonetheless, they did. The New Republic armed forces made use of a large number of captured or abandoned Imperial Star Destroyers (hey, it's cheaper than building new ships), including the Super Star Destroyer Lusankya. They even named a one after Mon Mothma. And, in fact, they used the orbital bombardment capabilities of the ex-Imperial ships on the Yuuzhan Vong.

Towers: The problem with this old argument is that you can go back to where some ILM guy scribbled "radar dome" on his notes, or you can go through several games and books where the domes are referred to as shield generators. Or you can watch the movie where we see a dome blow up and then immediately cut to an officer yelling, "Sir! We've lost the bridge deflector shield!" It's not really a big deal...but most people have been thinking of them as shield generators for long enough to make that the prevailing wisdom. That "technical commentaries" guy has got way too much time on his hands and he says funny things sometimes. Now as far as Empire at War goes, giving the ISD a second shield generator hardpoint would make it a lot tougher. Maybe the turbolasers should fire more shots per volley, too.

Mon Calamari cruisers should be weaker than Imperial Star Destroyers, but should be faster and more maneuverable. The fact that ISDs were built as dedicated warships does mean they will be superior to a starliner at approximately the same technology level. The ISD will have all the necessary support structure for military hardware: weapons, power systems for weapons, armor, a hull designed to take a pounding, etc. The thing about military ships versus cruise ships is that one is designed with battle in mind first, and people in mind second (ever see how cramped the crew quarters are on a submarine?). Cruise liners are the other way around. The Mon Calamari may have been able to adapt their venerable starfleet, but those ships will not be able to go toe to toe with Star Destroyers.


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Old 11-16-2006, 11:50 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by wedge2211
Mon Calamari cruisers should be weaker than Imperial Star Destroyers, but should be faster and more maneuverable. The fact that ISDs were built as dedicated warships does mean they will be superior to a starliner at approximately the same technology level. The ISD will have all the necessary support structure for military hardware: weapons, power systems for weapons, armor, a hull designed to take a pounding, etc. The thing about military ships versus cruise ships is that one is designed with battle in mind first, and people in mind second (ever see how cramped the crew quarters are on a submarine?). Cruise liners are the other way around. The Mon Calamari may have been able to adapt their venerable starfleet, but those ships will not be able to go toe to toe with Star Destroyers.
I'm afraid I misunderstood your argument. When you said 'weaker' I assumed you meant inferior, not physically less resilient. I wouldn't mind at all if the Mon Cals got better speed and maneuverability while the ISD got bigger firepower and armour, that makes sense. Just so long as those changes were balanced (i.e. lets not have Vengence-style upgrades like several million hitpoints or uber cloaking etc etc etc.... )
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Old 11-16-2006, 01:35 PM   #63
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Well, less physically resilient and less well armed, yeah.


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Old 02-06-2009, 01:24 PM   #64
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I see your points, very much so, but can one simply think of alternatives to "tweaking" the files? Take it as a challenge. Why not deny the enemy valuable planets, without them they can't even produce capital ships! Each faction has a way to gain them with ease, I dont see the issue. Im a huge, huge Empire fan but the point remains; Petro didn't make them the badboys they deserve to be, so lets work round it eh? Certain planets offer certain abilities, certain ships offer certain strengths, mix, match and total the competition.

If this still doesn't appeal to you then just modify the XML files or play a Mod. Though personally I much prefer the second option. Let the pro's handle the technicalities. . . .

Now, as for a personal point of view, I think Star Destroyers need to be tweaked. Maybe make them more direct? Add some firepower, give them some more HP and shield power, but reduce their speed. You gotta give them a flaw and with Star Destroyers; speed fits.

The Consortium however need no major changes. Weak armor and defenses, but huge and destructive firepower. Think of the Aggressor as a Broadside Cruiser, pumping out missiles. But instead of a spread effect its much more . . . direct. The Mon Calamari Cruisers are also a pain, their huge shield totals and abilities overly worked. But missiles penetrate shields, so simply put a Star Destroyer against it and sneak a few broadsides into bombardment position. Failing that, Tie Defenders work wonders against them, diverting fire and firing ion.

I think Star Destroyers should be aimed at Capital Ships, the top dog, but have a vulnerability to smaller vessels, say a fighter and bomber squadron?

These are but a few ideas and alternatives that I can contribute. Rather than rush to the XML or Modding section, try to adapt and change your plans.


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Old 03-05-2009, 10:22 PM   #65
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Woah, Thrawn! Teach me the ways of Necromancy, please.
Look at the date of the post before yours... Three years, Admiral. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a reply on an ancient topic.


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Old 04-03-2009, 04:45 PM   #66
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Posts: 2
i too would like that but what if a regular capital ship were to have no shields but complete rapid fire batteries to take out great numbers of enimies
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