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View Poll Results: R U a Christian?
Yes 38 51.35%
No 38 51.35%
Want be 2 2.70%
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Thread: The Christian Thread!
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:15 PM   #401
Darth Zavier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker View Post
In other words, there is no good reason to believe in a god, hell or the bible itself. Thank you.
Yes there is, and the reason is simple: No Christ, No heaven, and if no Heaven, then there is hell. If you don't believe in Jesus you will burn in hell for eternity, there's no going back, so repent of ALL your sins in a prayer to him and Ask him to come into your heart, then make peace with him, then become his friend; pray, read your Bibles, go to Church, follow his 10 Commandments, and just be a leader and stand up for Christ.


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Old 06-22-2009, 03:53 PM   #402
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Or you could believe in:

D.) None of the above

Which, I'm pretty sure, is exactly where Skin (and several others here...) stands.


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Old 06-22-2009, 05:55 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Zavier View Post
Yes there is, and the reason is simple: No Christ, No heaven, and if no Heaven, then there is hell. If you don't believe in Jesus you will burn in hell for eternity, there's no going back, so repent of ALL your sins in a prayer to him and Ask him to come into your heart, then make peace with him, then become his friend; pray, read your Bibles, go to Church, follow his 10 Commandments, and just be a leader and stand up for Christ.
You need a serious lesson in logic. This is just not even convincing at all.

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Old 06-22-2009, 06:55 PM   #404
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This IS logic: You don't make things right with him, you go to hell. Plain and simple.

edlib, My friend you are lost then, and all the people who don't believe in him.


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Old 06-22-2009, 07:55 PM   #405
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This IS logic: You don't make things right with him, you go to hell. Plain and simple.
Considering what a helluva heaven it's going to be when all those hypocrites assemble there, I don't mind a bit. (Congrats on anyone who caught the MTT reference)
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edlib, My friend you are lost then, and all the people who don't believe in him.
From the wise William Joel.
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:59 PM   #406
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This IS logic: You don't make things right with him, you go to hell. Plain and simple.
edlib, My friend you are lost then, and all the people who don't believe in him.
That REALLY doesn't seem like the work of a truly just, understanding, and loving God... but it's OK... I guess I'll take my chances.



(By the way: I never once said I was an atheist... for the record: I'm a non-practicing former X-tian/ essentially-agnostic. Kind of a small point to be sure... but a distinction that is important for me.)


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Old 06-22-2009, 09:20 PM   #407
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FTR I'm Lutheran - I just use enough critical thought to recognize Zavier's poor argument.

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Old 06-22-2009, 10:54 PM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Zavier View Post
Yes there is, and the reason is simple: No Christ, No heaven, and if no Heaven, then there is hell. If you don't believe in Jesus you will burn in hell for eternity, there's no going back, so repent of ALL your sins in a prayer to him and Ask him to come into your heart, then make peace with him, then become his friend; pray, read your Bibles, go to Church, follow his 10 Commandments, and just be a leader and stand up for Christ.
Perhaps there's no heaven or hell. In fact, there almost certainly is neither. There simply is no good reason to believe either exists -not a single shred of evidence supports the notion.

Moreover, even if there were a god and some sort of afterlife, there's even less evidence that your particular opinions of what this god and afterlife are about are meaningful to me. Why should I choose your bible over the Koran, Hindu Vedas, the Popul Vuh, or even the oral traditions of Polynesian religion? It's equally as likely that these, and other, religious traditions are the correct method of worship of a god.

Finally, which 10 commandments would you wish me to follow? There are at least three distinct decalogues in the Pentateuch. Not that it matters, few are actually commandments and fewer of these are paid any mind by those that claim they're important. There are far better rules and laws to follow than the woefully inadequate commandments of Bronze/Iron Age Canaan/Israel.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Zavier View Post
This IS logic: You don't make things right with him, you go to hell. Plain and simple.

edlib, My friend you are lost then, and all the people who don't believe in him.
It's far from logic. Blind faith in that for which there is no good reason to believe is not logical.


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Old 06-22-2009, 11:22 PM   #409
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This IS logic: You don't make things right with him, you go to hell. Plain and simple.
Vishnu says that's untrue.


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Old 06-23-2009, 09:18 AM   #410
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That REALLY doesn't seem like the work of a truly just, understanding, and loving God... but it's OK... I guess I'll take my chances.
Hey, you can't take the poor argument of Darth Zavier and make it as every Christian point of view. I'm a Christian, and I don't agree with him.
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Old 06-23-2009, 09:28 AM   #411
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No... trust me: I don't.

Just trying to open a mind to a wider universe of thoughts and opinions.


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Old 06-23-2009, 09:54 AM   #412
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I am quite convinced this thread is going nowhere. Its purpose, the poll - is now closed, and the results stunning for all to behold....

Those wishing to delve into such fun topics further, can do so at discussion areas such as Kavars or Senate Chambers.

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Old 06-25-2009, 03:14 AM   #413
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Personally, IIove threads like this!

I would also agree with you that Catholics didn't invent 'hell.' This is very likely something that existed in some form in the polytheistic phase of judeo-christian mythology. Prior to their cultural evolution into 'Israelites' the Canaanites probably had some sort of 'hell' analogue.
Well, even if we subscribe to some kind of agnostic "school of religions syncretism" thing for the sake of argument on the origins of "hell" this would be a problematic assumption to make.

Which "polytheistic phase" are we talking about here? The origins of the Hebrew monotheism out of pseudo/Chaldean milieu? Canaanite influence during the legendary "Joshua period"? Babylonian influence from the exile? Zorastrian (if you consider that polytheistic) influence from Persia? Greek influence during the later Second Temple (or later still, early Christian) period?

The TANAKH makes many references to Hebrews/Israelites/Jews straying from the worship of YHWH over time and seeking after other gods at various times. The authors condemn this as sinful of course, but whatever one's own interpretation, this gives witness to the fact that there were certainly instances of boundary crossing. The question is, if the concept originated in some other religion, what made it acceptable for this to be borrowed (often by those same authors) while others were condemned? A more universalistic understanding of truth would say "well they accepted what was true in other systems and rejected what was false" of course.

Yes, the ancient Jews had a concept of "hell" but though the word translated as such comes from there (the ever popular King James Bible translates a handful of different words as "hell"), in the TANAKH the term generally refers to "Sheol" which is thought of as "the grave" a place where all the dead go. If it is a conscious existence (even barely), it's more like the "shades" of ancient Greek thought. Or it could be thought of eternal sleep. Essentially it was taken out of that into more of a "waiting room" in Christian thinking, waiting for the resurrection (and those righteous ones who died before Christ's resurrection got liberated at that event). It was then transformed into the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory (setting aside Protestant objections which arose over a millennia later).

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But the idea of hell, as modern Christians understand it, originates in early Jewish texts.
I agree.

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And for centuries, the hell myth has served to reinforce doctrines of christianity and in upholding social values perceived as good or right. Hell threatened the 'wicked' while paradise awaited, not the good, but the sufficiently pious.
Right, though depending upon where you stand, you could try to reason how the Jewish system worked without this for so long (let me guess the "wrathful God" idea, right?). Of course there were many sects within Judaism, so we could reason that some believed in such a punishment state after death, while others did not, and not all shared the exact same vision of what that state was like.

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Catholics invented, however, the doctrine of purgatory, a state in which souls (whatever these are) can be morally improved for their final meeting with their god.
Arguably yes, the "limbo of the Fathers" as it came to be called, naturally slid into the belief in Purgatory. Its there in the earliest Christian thought recorded in the New Testament, so if Catholicism represents the original apostolic tradition (I believe it does) then yeah, that follows.


(PS: To anyone confused, I use "TANAKH" here to refer to the books in the "Jewish bible" now called the Old Testament by Christians; the order and arrangement in the Jewish editions today differs from Christian bibles, and it goes with the shorter "canon" that Protestants favor, additionally it privileges the Masoretic Hebrew over the Septuagint... the latter of which until about five hundred years ago, was favored by most Christians, that is the Greek, now it's mostly just the Orthodox church that does so).


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