Thread: The Sith Lords and the Old Republic
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Old 07-05-2009, 08:08 PM   #1
True_Avery
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The Sith Lords and the Old Republic

Topic has been brought up a few times, so lets talk about it here:

Why isn't TSL being addressed in SWTOR so far?

1) Well, my first thought on something like this is that Bioware simply does not have the rights to the events of TSL. Slim, considering that it also belongs to Lucasarts. But, the story, characters, dialogue, etc may belong to a certain degree with Obsidian, and the money required to get the rights may be more than Bioware is willing to fork over. Nihilus, Exile, etc are all Obsidian's work after all. I'd need clarification on this, but this is one idea I came up with.

2) Obsidian made the game, and is thus the reason why it is not being mentioned. Game companies, and real companies, tend to do this a lot. Kotor was Bioware's idea, it got picked up by a sloppy second's developer, and regardless of the outcome it was released incomplete with a cliffhanger story. Bioware may not want to mentioned for the #1 reason, but also because it was not their story, not their continuity, and not their problem. It would be very selfish, but this is a pretty large company after all. George did the same thing to a lot of previous EU canon when he put a bunch of stuff in the Clone Wars and between movie 3 and 4 era.

3) http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....3&postcount=10
http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....4&postcount=12

What, may I ask, happened that would directly link to TSL as of now?

"If the Exile did not train his companions, there would be no Jedi Order."
Exile -help- train her companions. She did not guarantee their training, however. There was no chance in hell of her training them into full Jedi in the year or less she knew them. Most likely she started them off onto apprenticeship, and after she left they started their training back at he temple full time. Any masters who survived, or Jedi who survived would be most likely returning back to the temple as well. Only a handful of them would know about Exile, and chances of her being chronicled in the data archives are slim at best considering she had already been excommunicated at the time of the counsel.

That and the only truly significant thing that happened was the death of a lot of Jedi Masters in TSL. It was already hinted that the Jedi Order was in pieces at the end of K1, and that Malak had already killed a great many Jedi Knights and Masters in his time. Regardless of the existence of TSL, the Jedi order would have crumbled not too much later and would have been rebuilt, yet again, but its survivors.

Nihilus did indeed kill a great deal himself, but it must be remembered that there was maybe 9 people in the Galaxy that knew he existed, his name, and what he was by the end of TSL. Remember, in TSL the attack on Telos was considered an attack by the last of the Sith armada. Nobody knew what happened on Katarr, and the general galaxy seemed to have considered it a freak accident. As far as I know, Kreia, Exile, the remaining Masters, and Visas were the only ones that really knew what happened by the end and Kreia dies, Exile disapears, the Masters die, and Visas has the option of dying by the player.

Yes, the Jedi were purged by there was already a Jedi purge by Malak 5 years earlier. Both were practically copies of each other in concept, and the second only cemented what the first did. The Jedi trained by Exile did not return as Masters, but as apprentices in their knowledge of the force. They helped rebuild it in the same way as any of the other returning members did, and she is hardly the sole reason the Jedi order continued to exist. She was a contributor, but we don't even know if she asked them not to mention her.

So, in summary, I do not see how this contributes to SWTOR's story, or is in need of being in a timeline when it is, in the big picture, a small event following, by the perception of the galaxy, much larger events. Only the Player really knows what went on, and that is TSL's greatest flaw.

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Onderon seceded
How is this supposed to make it into the archives as an important piece of imformation? Yes, it -may- have started a chain reaction but it is one planet in the vastness of the Galaxy. I'm sure if we had looked around, we would have found other planet's non too happy with the Repubic and so on. It was one event and, by itself, is fairly insignificant.

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Dantooine collapsed
This I was always a little confused about considering our entire experience with Dantooine was focus on a, like, 10x10 mile block of Dantooine. Everything within walking distance. I was just under the impression it was Khoonda that was falling, and not the entire planet.

Yet, like Onderon, a small event in the big picture.

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Telos run out of fuel
Exile would get no credit for this, as the only ones taking credit for this are the Hutts. Simple as that. They run out of fuel, get new fuel. I hardly see the vast significance of capitalism at work.

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The Republic Failing
So says Goto. You have to -assume- this was what would have happened, as we have to work off of the numbers of a rebel robot. Only Exile, Kreia, and Goto were really in direct knowledge of this, and being that it was speculation it has no bearing on SWTOR's story, thus why it was probably bad for TSL to base the majority of its story on speculation.

4) Kotor was still bigger than TSL and, as far as the galaxy is concerned, had much more of an effect than TSL did. Mando wars, Jedi Civil War, and so on. TSL had small, seemingly insignificant things happening one after another that only a handful of people saw the connections in, most of which either died or, as it seems, kept their silence. Yes, the second purge could be mentioned but, again, the second purge was seen as a freak accident by the populous while the first did, quite honestly, far more damage than the second and was done by someone everyone knew the name of.

The problem with TSL is that you fought a secret war, in secret situations, fighting secretive people. The entire point to the story was that nobody could know what was going on, or it would simply add to the hysteria already occurring throughout the galaxy. Most of the events are either not known, insignificant by themselves, and so on.

Yes, you, the player, know the significance of TSL. We know that without our actions the Republic would have gone down the drain but the populous of the Star Wars galaxy, and many of the remaining Jedi did not. It also does not help that a lot of what we know about TSL has to be taken at face value by characters that were untrustworthy from the start.

5) Even if 3 and 4 are completely wrong and TSL does deserve a spot on the map, I doubt Bioware is going to give them one. Why? Because, I think, as evidenced by the 300 year jump, Bioware was not so much running from Kotor 1 as it was TSL and trying to jump far enough as to make sure it almost never has to be mentioned. The Jedi were in tatters after K1, but after TSL, they had been brought nearly to extinction.

3 and 4 aside, I simply think that, like me, Bioware and Lucasart consider TSL's story be a load of BS for the most part. Myspace fanfiction made by a D&D fan, in a game that was both incomplete and inconsistent.

Even with TSL's effect, the only things that seems to be carried on is a few major things like True Sith, and some mentions of Jedi being wiped out. I think they picked out what could not be ignored and rolled with it, while making sure to stay away from the rest.

TSL was different and unique in Star Wars, but I think to a drastic point. I am not going to deny that a lot, or even most of this is Bioware's fault as they turned down doing Kotor 2. But, if I made someone and then some else took over and did something I completely disagreed with, then gave it back to me... hell yeah I'd ignore a lot of it, even at the expense of the canon that was written due to it. That is the only spot I'd agree with George Lucas on, as I'd be in the same boat if I wanted to continue working on my vison and my idea over the fanfiction of others.

In summary:

TSL happened, but don't get your hopes up that it is going to get a lot of mention. A lot of the story focus is most likely going to be on the Revan and Malak era, as well as what would be happening at that time. Hell, Revan and Malak may not be mentioned all too much as that might limit the player base for their MMO and those that can understand the story.

For those of you that are die hard TSL fans, I respect your tastes but, like Bioware, I would be ignoring the game as well.

You see this more often in Marvel/DC comics. Seeing as each one is handed off to someone new, sometimes someone will just do something "unique and different". Meaning, something stupid and of too much consequence to be taken seriously. So, it is retcon'ed out by other authors as to save what it left of the character. This makes the history and Canon and jumbled mess when seen in full, but can and often does save the comic.

Perhaps a bad example, as both Marvel and DC have terrible stories in their comic series but that is basically what Bioware is doing: Retconing out TSL as to save their original story.

Lazy? Probably. But, in my opinion, it is like writing a fanfic over in SWK, and then someone comes along out and writes a chapter that does a whole lot to your original story and characters. So, you can either roll with it, ask a moderator to delete it, or ignore it even if the chapter happens to be better than the others.

This is, above every one else, including bioware and obsidian, Lucasart's fault for how they treated TSL from the start. If anything, obsidian should have sued Lucas for breach on contract and if that wasn't the case, then Obsidian should have not made the game from the beginning knowing the limitations (like, say, not being allowed to know K1's plot for the writing process).

That is my opinion on the issue.
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Old 07-05-2009, 09:15 PM   #2
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Troll thread detected.

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Originally Posted by True_Avery View Post
"If the Exile did not train his companions, there would be no Jedi Order." Exile -help- train her companions. She did not guarantee their training, however. There was no chance in hell of her training them into full Jedi in the year or less she knew them. Most likely she started them off onto apprenticeship, and after she left they started their training back at he temple full time. Any masters who survived, or Jedi who survived would be most likely returning back to the temple as well. Only a handful of them would know about Exile, and chances of her being chronicled in the data archives are slim at best considering she had already been excommunicated at the time of the counsel.
She introduced them to the Force, which is where the seeds were planted. They would learn along the way, but without first knowing the Force, they wouldn't be Jedi at all.
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That and the only truly significant thing that happened was the death of a lot of Jedi Masters in TSL. It was already hinted that the Jedi Order was in pieces at the end of K1, and that Malak had already killed a great many Jedi Knights and Masters in his time. Regardless of the existence of TSL, the Jedi order would have crumbled not too much later and would have been rebuilt, yet again, but its survivors.
The Jedi Order was still sizable and triving after the JCW. Crippled, perhaps, but they were still very much alive. It wasn't until Sion, and eventually, Nihilius at Katarr that essentially disbanded the Order proper.
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Nihilus did indeed kill a great deal himself, but it must be remembered that there was maybe 9 people in the Galaxy that knew he existed, his name, and what he was by the end of TSL. Remember, in TSL the attack on Telos was considered an attack by the last of the Sith armada. Nobody knew what happened on Katarr, and the general galaxy seemed to have considered it a freak accident. As far as I know, Kreia, Exile, the remaining Masters, and Visas were the only ones that really knew what happened by the end and Kreia dies, Exile disapears, the Masters die, and Visas has the option of dying by the player.
Irreverent. The Order was dwindling regardless, and the Republic acknowledged that. The true reason behind the destruction of Katarr was unbeknownst to most, but only the few surviving Jedi knew, and by that time, there were very few remaining.
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Yes, the Jedi were purged by there was already a Jedi purge by Malak 5 years earlier. Both were practically copies of each other in concept, and the second only cemented what the first did. The Jedi trained by Exile did not return as Masters, but as apprentices in their knowledge of the force. They helped rebuild it in the same way as any of the other returning members did, and she is hardly the sole reason the Jedi order continued to exist. She was a contributor, but we don't even know if she asked them not to mention her.
Yes, but the Order still existed after the JCW. The ending of K1 acknowledged that, as well as the various Onderonian holovids that claimed that the Order began to dwindle, and eventually disband, immediately following the war.
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So, in summary, I do not see how this contributes to SWTOR's story, or is in need of being in a timeline when it is, in the big picture, a small event following, by the perception of the galaxy, much larger events. Only the Player really knows what went on, and that is TSL's greatest flaw.
Please explain how this was a flaw. Yes, K1 had you as a triumphant hero, but in all honestly, that was a rather short-lived and glib moment. At least Kreia gave you a little vignette on your actions' consequences, whereas in K1 it was fairly obvious: You stopped the Sith, and saved the Republic. It seems fairly significant, yes, but seeing as Kreia wanted to end the Force for good, which translates as the end of Life, the Universe, and Everything. I'd consider that to be of greater significance, even if it is relatively unbeknownst by most.
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How is this supposed to make it into the archives as an important piece of imformation? Yes, it -may- have started a chain reaction but it is one planet in the vastness of the Galaxy. I'm sure if we had looked around, we would have found other planet's non too happy with the Repubic and so on. It was one event and, by itself, is fairly insignificant.
Again, it was significant. Xart on Onderon confirmed that the outcome of Onderon would have started a chain reaction, which might have lead to a whole cascade revolt, causing another civil war, which was something that the Republic did not need. I'd consider that to be significant, even though it was probably played down by the Republic to keep galactic order.
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This I was always a little confused about considering our entire experience with Dantooine was focus on a, like, 10x10 mile block of Dantooine. Everything within walking distance. I was just under the impression it was Khoonda that was falling, and not the entire planet.
Dantooine was a breadbasket, and since there's hundred of millions of starving war refugees throughout the planet, that equates to thousands dying from starvation. Sure, the government was minimalist in size, but it was something that held everything together, and without them, there would be no order.
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4) Kotor was still bigger than TSL and, as far as the galaxy is concerned, had much more of an effect than TSL did. Mando wars, Jedi Civil War, and so on. TSL had small, seemingly insignificant things happening one after another that only a handful of people saw the connections in, most of which either died or, as it seems, kept their silence. Yes, the second purge could be mentioned but, again, the second purge was seen as a freak accident by the populous while the first did, quite honestly, far more damage than the second and was done by someone everyone knew the name of.
You're taking it totally out of context. In K1, all of your choice had obvious consequences to all. It requires minimal perception to discern what was good and what was bad, and therefore, its following consequences. K2 changed that to an extent, by having more ambiguous consequences, instead outright knowing what would happen.
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The problem with TSL is that you fought a secret war, in secret situations, fighting secretive people. The entire point to the story was that nobody could know what was going on, or it would simply add to the hysteria already occurring throughout the galaxy. Most of the events are either not known, insignificant by themselves, and so on.
And? How is this make K2 a lesser game compared to K1? Is it wrong to not have every decision apparent to oneself immediately after making them? Not all consequences need to be short-term, and that was part of the effect that TSL had over K1.
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3 and 4 aside, I simply think that, like me, Bioware and Lucasart consider TSL's story be a load of BS for the most part. Myspace fanfiction made by a D&D fan, in a game that was both incomplete and inconsistent.
Troll thread confirmed.
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Even with TSL's effect, the only things that seems to be carried on is a few major things like True Sith, and some mentions of Jedi being wiped out. I think they picked out what could not be ignored and rolled with it, while making sure to stay away from the rest.
Well, then, frankly, that sucks. It's essentially nitpicking details that most people would seem "undesirable", and therefore, less profitable, while maintaining all of the good ideas and concepts from before. It's essentially retconning accepted contributions, and it's an even greater insult to the developers, regardless of your opinion.
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TSL was different and unique in Star Wars, but I think to a drastic point. I am not going to deny that a lot, or even most of this is Bioware's fault as they turned down doing Kotor 2. But, if I made someone and then some else took over and did something I completely disagreed with, then gave it back to me... hell yeah I'd ignore a lot of it, even at the expense of the canon that was written due to it. That is the only spot I'd agree with George Lucas on, as I'd be in the same boat if I wanted to continue working on my vison and my idea over the fanfiction of others.
There's a reason why Irvan Kershner directed Episode V: Lucas, as a director, sucks. Lucas may not have been privy of his shortcomnigs, but he chose Kirchner over other reasons. Anyway, ESB had a darker story, and a cliffhanger ending. It was different than ANH; it didn't have a climactic ending, and it didn't have a general lightheartedness than in ANH, but overall, it was an emotionally deeper film, and it would be a sin to simply replicate ANH's plot.
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:01 PM   #3
True_Avery
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Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
Troll thread detected.
Trolling a troll thread?

As I said, it was my opinion on the matter of why TSL is not being mentioned. If you'd like to troll my opinion, then go ahead. I'm expressing why I think Bioware may be ignoring TSL, and if you'd like to equate that to Bioware trolling you then go ahead.

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She introduced them to the Force, which is where the seeds were planted. They would learn along the way, but without first knowing the Force, they wouldn't be Jedi at all.
Disciple already stated there were more, like him, that were denied the opportunity but were still trained at one point. You help plant seeds in like, 4 or something people but the Temple was still there, as well as possible other padawans, knights, and so on who survived as well as those who did not manage to get to apprenticeship.

The Jedi order would not have died if you had not trained. Hell, you can go through TSL without training them at all if you'd like.

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Irreverent. The Order was dwindling regardless, and the Republic acknowledged that. The true reason behind the destruction of Katarr was unbeknownst to most, but only the few surviving Jedi knew, and by that time, there were very few remaining.
What surviving Jedi? The only surviving Jedi to know about Nihilus at all was Exile, and possibly Visas if she lives. Everyone else is killed off.

Which is why I think Nihilus is irrelevant, in the big picture, to SWTOR canon as everything he did can be attributed to a freak accident.

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The Jedi Order was still sizable and triving after the JCW. Crippled, perhaps, but they were still very much alive. It wasn't until Sion, and eventually, Nihilius at Katarr that essentially disbanded the Order proper.
It was thriving before you left, but Malak did take down the temple at Dantooine. We know the Masters went into hiding after Nihilus, but was it really just the masters? No other padawans? No other knights? Was it really down to the last few?

Dramatization on the Master's part. They themselves admitted that the hid themselves off from others, so I hardly think they are a good source of info supporting that there were truly no others left.

Regardless of Nihilus or not, the Jedi Order would have needed a renovation and it can be talked about in almost the same context. Katarr can be mentioned, but it was only knocking an extra nail into an already nailed coffin.

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Please explain how this was a flaw. Yes, K1 had you as a triumphant hero, but in all honestly, that was a rather short-lived and glib moment. At least Kreia gave you a little vignette on your actions' consequences, whereas in K1 it was fairly obvious: You stopped the Sith, and saved the Republic. It seems fairly significant, yes, but seeing as Kreia wanted to end the Force for good, which translates as the end of Life, the Universe, and Everything. I'd consider that to be of greater significance, even if it is relatively unbeknownst by most.
Emphases on highlighted area.

I could honestly care less about how important TSL was. That is not my point. My point is that, becaue it is unknown to most of the galaxy, and probably unknown to anyone by SWTOR's time, it is irrelevant to something like the Jedi Archives.

The Exile is the ONLY person who knew Kreia's true motives. The only one, as you kill Kreia and Exile disapears, never to be heard from again. What is there to pass on? How does the Republic know Kreia wanted to end the force? How do you Jedi?

They cannot, so it is irrelevant to a SWTOR timeline. I am not saying it was not a story, or that it did not have important things happen, but because of the nature of a secretive story like TSL it... remains secret.

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Again, it was significant. Xart on Onderon confirmed that the outcome of Onderon would have started a chain reaction, which might have lead to a whole cascade revolt, causing another civil war, which was something that the Republic did not need. I'd consider that to be significant, even though it was probably played down by the Republic to keep galactic order.
Key word being "might have". Political analysts are often wrong, and we do not know that a chain reaction would have happened because it never did. We can only assume off of Xart' words that it would have.

Perhaps if we go to Onderonn in SWTOR it will be mentioned, but only as a revolution of sorts. I doubt Exile will be given credit for the same reason the Hutts wont give credit to Exile.

Again, -you- consider it to be significant. The player knows it is, but it was "probably played down by the republic to keep galactic order".

You are simply restating my point from a different perspective. It was played down, the true meaning dying with Exile. That is why it is irrelevant.

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You're taking it totally out of context. In K1, all of your choice had obvious consequences to all. It requires minimal perception to discern what was good and what was bad, and therefore, its following consequences. K2 changed that to an extent, by having more ambiguous consequences, instead outright knowing what would happen.
Which is why it does not fit into a proper timeline. If everything is left up for us to decide and discern, then how does anything fit into Canon? Does that not just further help my argument that TSL's story is thus irrelevant in a SWTOR timeline?

Yes, I realize it was grey area game. But when you have that as the entire theme, that makes it difficult to solidly state exactly what happened and further expand upon.

I am not denying TSL's story. I am denying that, due to its nature, it can fit into SWTOR.

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And? How is this make K2 a lesser game compared to K1? Is it wrong to not have every decision apparent to oneself immediately after making them? Not all consequences need to be short-term, and that was part of the effect that TSL had over K1.
Again, not my point. TSL's long term outlook on decisions means that the original point may be lost to time, like, say, 300 years in the future.

I am not denying that helping Telos get fuel will most likely save Telos for SWTOR. I am saying that, in a timeline, Exile is not going to get credit for it, it will be put in the books under the Hutts, and -because- of its lack of short term effects it will -only- be seen as another act of capitalism in a galaxy sized enonomy, and thus not worthy of much mention.

The long term decisions in TSL were novel, new, and I liked the concept. What I am saying is that, unless written by Avellone, SWTOR is too far in the future for these "wait and see" decisions to be appreciated.

Someone miles away could have stopped there car and held up traffic, which in turn, through many circumstances days later, could have helped me get someone faster due to traffic switching ever so slightly. That does not mean it will go down in the history books that it was the reason I got there faster, but that is was just one thing that led to another.

TSL's one thing leads to another story telling does not help towards making a cohesive story timeline, or connections in a story 300 years later.

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Troll thread confirmed.
Troll confirmed.

You think TSL is fantastic, I thought it was BS in the long run. If you want to see that as a troll thread, then go right ahead. I, however, am not going to worship TSL just because it took a chance and lost and I'm not going to hail Avellone as an amazing writer just because he has character development of a Naruto character.

Instead of just calling me a troll, why don't you read into why I thought it was BS instead of taking a line out of context.

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Well, then, frankly, that sucks. It's essentially nitpicking details that most people would seem "undesirable", and therefore, less profitable, while maintaining all of the good ideas and concepts from before. It's essentially retconning accepted contributions, and it's an even greater insult to the developers, regardless of your opinion.
Not saying that it isn't insulting to Avellone and TSL. I'm saying they took a gamble, and lost. They made a story for long running decisions, and Avellone has even said he did so in planning for more. He did not get his next game, so the story is left incomplete, unanswered, and left for us to decipher what happened, and what will happen.

Yes, they may be indeed taking out what is undesirable. A contribution does not instantly mean it is a good one, and a living black hole that eats planets may be up there with one of the lesser contributions. Having a plot revolving entirely around player knowledge and not canon knowledge may also be undesirable.

My point is that TSL is BS in the long run because it establishes almost nothing. It is a blurring blot on a timeline that cannot be comfortably deciphered, and because of the nature of its story is not meant to have anything solid.

It set itself up to be ignored. Maybe it is insulting to remove those blurs, but if Avellone's point was to create a story like that then it seems to have set itself up for this.

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There's a reason why Irvan Kershner directed Episode V: Lucas, as a director, sucks. Lucas may not have been privy of his shortcomnigs, but he chose Kirchner over other reasons. Anyway, ESB had a darker story, and a cliffhanger ending. It was different than ANH; it didn't have a climactic ending, and it didn't have a general lightheartedness than in ANH, but overall, it was an emotionally deeper film, and it would be a sin to simply replicate ANH's plot.
I, personally, do not compare this to TSL and K1 because K1 had better voice acting and, in my opinion, didn't drown you in myspace fanfiction characters with the subtly of a stick of dynamite.

ESB had a story, a cliffhanger ending, and so on. TSL had a secretive story that, by its nature, does not fit well into Canon, did not have a cohesive ending at all (I wouldn't even call it a cliffhanger, as you need a plot to have a cliffhanger), and so on.

You like TSL, I didn't. But, regardless of if I -like- it or not does not change my idea that TSL is being ignored for the above reasons. You are taking it a personal insult and a shot at TSL, but I am taking it as a business and story decision to drop a story that had little overall, or at least noticeable, impact.
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:46 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by True_Avery View Post
1) Well, my first thought on something like this is that Bioware simply does not have the rights to the events of TSL. Slim, considering that it also belongs to Lucasarts. But, the story, characters, dialogue, etc may belong to a certain degree with Obsidian, and the money required to get the rights may be more than Bioware is willing to fork over. Nihilus, Exile, etc are all Obsidian's work after all. I'd need clarification on this, but this is one idea I came up with.
Obsidian doesn't own anything Star Wars. Everything that was created, is property of LucasArts/Lucas Licensing. That's what you get for working in an established intellectual property.

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2) Obsidian made the game, and is thus the reason why it is not being mentioned. Game companies, and real companies, tend to do this a lot. Kotor was Bioware's idea, it got picked up by a sloppy second's developer, and regardless of the outcome it was released incomplete with a cliffhanger story. Bioware may not want to mentioned for the #1 reason, but also because it was not their story, not their continuity, and not their problem. It would be very selfish, but this is a pretty large company after all. George did the same thing to a lot of previous EU canon when he put a bunch of stuff in the Clone Wars and between movie 3 and 4 era.
The relationship between the two companies is, as far as I know, very friendly. BioWare lended there engine and knowledge of KotOR to Obsidian, something they did again for Neverwinter Nights 2.

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Only a handful of them would know about Exile, and chances of her being chronicled in the data archives are slim at best considering she had already been excommunicated at the time of the counsel.
Problem with that is, the Exile was a pretty famous person in the galaxy at that time, holovids showing her face in the libraries of Coruscant, or something like that (I remember it being mentioned in a conversation with HK-47). I'm pretty sure that the Jedi in hiding knew who she was, and more importantly, that she was back in the known galaxy. Bastila was aware of her. And the Exile's companions would make sure she'd be remembered.

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Regardless of the existence of TSL, the Jedi order would have crumbled not too much later and would have been rebuilt, yet again, but its survivors.
Visas playing both a huge role in the Dark Wars and in rebuilding the Jedi Order, she'd make sure the Jedi knew what had really happened in the years after the Jedi Civil War.

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and Visas has the option of dying by the player.
We're talking about canon, here, though. Otherwise, you could've also mentioned the Exile's option of staying and rebuilding the Sith.

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Yes, the Jedi were purged by there was already a Jedi purge by Malak 5 years earlier.
Yet they still had the time to celebrate their victory by giving a grand ceremony for Revan and company. The common folk, saw it as a victory of the Jedi and the Republic. The disappearance of the Jedi in the years afterwards is something nobody can explain.

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So, in summary, I do not see how this contributes to SWTOR's story, or is in need of being in a timeline when it is, in the big picture, a small event following, by the perception of the galaxy, much larger events. Only the Player really knows what went on, and that is TSL's greatest flaw.
The story revolves around you, but I have yet to see the flaw in that. It's a way of telling a story, not doing the overdone "epic" stories, and focusing on something that matters to the player, a story that emotionally involves the player. But we're not here to talk about TSL's flaws, are we?
Relevant, and especially with the timeline issue, is that those holorecords are being told by a Jedi Master. It's not the perception of the galaxy that matters (the common people barely know anything, anyway. They gladly accepted Palpatine's rise to power, not knowing he was that which had held the galaxy by its throat dozens of times), but, in this case, that of the Jedi, and the Jedi know a lot more than the merchants in the lower levels of Coruscant, or the common soldiers in the Republic Army. And for the Jedi, the Jedi Purge following the downfall of Malak, and the rebuilding of the Jedi Order must have been as important as Revan's victory.

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The problem with TSL is that you fought a secret war, in secret situations, fighting secretive people. The entire point to the story was that nobody could know what was going on, or it would simply add to the hysteria already occurring throughout the galaxy. Most of the events are either not known, insignificant by themselves, and so on.
The destruction of Peragus, attack on Telos, civil war on Onderon, disappearance of the Jedi. They are neither insignificant nor unknown. And while you could say that the link between those events was only observable and known by a select group of people, I think there's a link a lot of people will have made: these events all happening in the year of the Exile's return, who, by now, is somewhat a celebrity. The Republic itself acknowledges the Exile's importance, I'm sure they saw that what happened at Onderon, Dantooine, Telos and so ofrth was all linked together. By the way, the Republic had Mical to report everything he witnessed to Carth.

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3 and 4 aside, I simply think that, like me, Bioware and Lucasart consider TSL's story be a load of BS for the most part. Myspace fanfiction made by a D&D fan, in a game that was both incomplete and inconsistent.
Somehow, I suspect you from making this thread just to say that. And I couldn't disagree more.


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Old 07-05-2009, 11:07 PM   #5
jrrtoken
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Originally Posted by True_Avery View Post
Trolling a troll thread?

As I said, it was my opinion on the matter of why TSL is not being mentioned. If you'd like to troll my opinion, then go ahead. I'm expressing why I think Bioware may be ignoring TSL, and if you'd like to equate that to Bioware trolling you then go ahead.
Ah, but I didn't create an entire thread dedicated to answering a persistent discussion while at the same time placing veiled criticisms throughout it, right?
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Disciple already stated there were more, like him, that were denied the opportunity but were still trained at one point. You help plant seeds in like, 4 or something people but the Temple was still there, as well as possible other padawans, knights, and so on who survived as well as those who did not manage to get to apprenticeship.
True, but without a cornerstone of preexisting teachers willing enough to train others, there wouldn't be much rebuilding, especially when the only Jedi from the JCW left in TSL was the Exile and Bastila. Since the Exile left to find the True Sith, that essentially leaves the Order's reformation to one person, that we know of, sans the Exile's companions.
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The Jedi order would not have died if you had not trained. Hell, you can go through TSL without training them at all if you'd like.
Much as like how you could play as dark-sided, and it wouldn't effect the canon to begin with, because every extreme LS choice is considered proper canon.
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What surviving Jedi? The only surviving Jedi to know about Nihilus at all was Exile, and possibly Visas if she lives. Everyone else is killed off.
I don't mean recognizing Nihilius, but of the attack itself, which the remaining Jedi (Kavar, Vrook, Atris, Zez-Kai Ell, Vash, etc) knew was caused by the Sith.
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Which is why I think Nihilus is irrelevant, in the big picture, to SWTOR canon as everything he did can be attributed to a freak accident.
Then why hasn't been mentioned yet? Accident or not, the Republic perceived it a sa threat, which is why the Disciple served as a Republic spy, and more importantly, why the Exile was brought aboard the Harbinger towards Telos at the beginning of the whole game.
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It was thriving before you left, but Malak did take down the temple at Dantooine. We know the Masters went into hiding after Nihilus, but was it really just the masters? No other padawans? No other knights? Was it really down to the last few?
Doesn't account for the many other academies sprinkled throughout the galaxy, including Coruscant, for one, that was still a stronghold for Jedi after the war. Either way, the purge didn't happen immediately following the war, and was gradually brought on about. Ther's a fear-year difference between K1 and K2; much could've happened over those years, and it does not mean that the Jedi went form thriving to extinct overnight.
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I could honestly care less about how important TSL was. That is not my point. My point is that, becaue it is unknown to most of the galaxy, and probably unknown to anyone by SWTOR's time, it is irrelevant to something like the Jedi Archives.

The Exile is the ONLY person who knew Kreia's true motives. The only one, as you kill Kreia and Exile disapears, never to be heard from again. What is there to pass on? How does the Republic know Kreia wanted to end the force? How do you Jedi?
I don't expect them to mention anything of the sort, but you must acknowledge that there was at least some obvious significance in TSL.
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Perhaps if we go to Onderonn in SWTOR it will be mentioned, but only as a revolution of sorts. I doubt Exile will be given credit for the same reason the Hutts wont give credit to Exile.
I could care less about who receives credit, but they could at least mention anything concerning the Republic's fragile state after the war, which would extend to the revolt in Onderon.
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I am not denying that helping Telos get fuel will most likely save Telos for SWTOR. I am saying that, in a timeline, Exile is not going to get credit for it, it will be put in the books under the Hutts, and -because- of its lack of short term effects it will -only- be seen as another act of capitalism in a galaxy sized enonomy, and thus not worthy of much mention.
Again, see above.


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TSL's one thing leads to another story telling does not help towards making a cohesive story timeline, or connections in a story 300 years later.
If that's true, then why should any of part of TOR be linked to the KotOR series as a whole? That essentially downplays much of the events in K1 as well, including the destruction of Taris, the Wookiee revolt on Kashyyyk, and the destruction of the Dantooine Enclave.
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You think TSL is fantastic, I thought it was BS in the long run. If you want to see that as a troll thread, then go right ahead. I, however, am not going to worship TSL just because it took a chance and lost and I'm not going to hail Avellone as an amazing writer just because he has character development of a Naruto character.
See first post.
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Instead of just calling me a troll, why don't you read into why I thought it was BS instead of taking a line out of context.
I did, and I also made counterpoints and addendums to your original questions. I didn't, however, target this thread directly towards someone, nor did I actively input my negative comparisons every few paragraphs.
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Yes, they may be indeed taking out what is undesirable. A contribution does not instantly mean it is a good one, and a living black hole that eats planets may be up there with one of the lesser contributions. Having a plot revolving entirely around player knowledge and not canon knowledge may also be undesirable.
Agreed, although it's fairly hypocritical, seeing as the whole of K1 has been treated as undeniable truth by now.
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I, personally, do not compare this to TSL and K1 because K1 had better voice acting and, in my opinion, didn't drown you in myspace fanfiction characters with the subtly of a stick of dynamite.
I thought you said this thread wasn't about personal opinion.
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ESB had a story, a cliffhanger ending, and so on. TSL had a secretive story that, by its nature, does not fit well into Canon, did not have a cohesive ending at all (I wouldn't even call it a cliffhanger, as you need a plot to have a cliffhanger), and so on.
Yes, because the teachings of Yoda and Vader's revelation was instantly made public knowledge right when they occurred.
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Old 07-05-2009, 11:09 PM   #6
True_Avery
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Originally Posted by Miltiades View Post
Somehow, I suspect you from making this thread just to say that. And I couldn't disagree more.
To each their own. You liked it, I didn't.

Got a better idea as to why it has been omitted thus far?

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Ah, but I didn't create an entire thread dedicated to answering a persistent discussion while at the same time placing veiled criticisms throughout it, right?
I don't think my criticisms were veiled. I dislike the game. I think it is one of the poorer examples of the RPG genre regardless of its development, and its characters some of the poorer I've come across. Shall I go on?

I've expressed the same views in other posts. I simply decided to make a thread to keep others from going off topic. If you'd prefer, I can delete the OP and place something like "why is Bioware omitting TSL from Swtor" which, on hind sight, I should have done from the start.

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I did, and I also made counterpoints and addendums to your original questions. I didn't, however, target this thread directly towards someone, nor did I actively input my negative comparisons every few paragraphs.
I don't recall making this towards anyone in particular. I'm expressing my dislike of the game, and why I think the reasons I dislike it are behind why it is being ignored. I am not going to praise a game I dislike, especially in a thread giving my opinion on why it should be ignored, and possibly is.

Then again, we do not know the full reasons as to why, or if it is being ignored seeing as we know little about the story. I'm just giving my opinion on why something like TSL has thus far been ignored.

EDIT:

Fair enough. I put up another thread void of my bias on the subject. I apologize for this thread.

Thread closed for trolling by my own OP.

Last edited by True_Avery; 07-06-2009 at 01:34 AM.
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