lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: How to understand the Mandalorians:
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 08-16-2007, 02:11 PM   #1
machievelli
Local curmudgeon
 
machievelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 2,823
Current Game: Dungeonseige series
Hot Topic Starter Veteran Fan Fic Author Helpful! Forum Veteran 
How to understand the Mandalorians:

How to understand the Mandalorians:
A Historical respective

This week, I happened to pick up two movies at the same store on the same day. They were the Last Samurai, and the original 300 Spartans. As I was watching the Last Samurai, I suddenly realized how to explain the Mandalorians in terms all of you can understand.

As I have commented before, a lot of writers treat the Mandalorians as soulless butchers at best, and homicidal maniacs at worst. I feel the problem is that those writers tend to try to look at them through the blinders of their own societies. As I have proven many times, I try to judge such societies by their own view of life. To do so I fall back on history, for as Seneca said, ‘If you are unwilling to study history, you are doomed to repeat it’.

We can accept the view that our enemy is automatically evil, or we can strive to understand why this particular twig is bent that way. So I decided to do this, primarily because as someone who understands the warrior realty at one remove, I can see why they think that way.

There are a number of such societies I could have used if I wanted to make this long and boring. I could have used the Plains Indians, or the Mercenaries of Europe. But the societies I used here were where the warrior ethic was the be all and end all.

This does not mean they were perfect. Both the Samurai and the Spartans had their faults. They had their abusers of the power intrinsic to their station, but on the whole, they display best what I am trying to put across.

I have put them in where they are recorded in the history I have read. So first:

SPARTANS

Sparta was only one city-state of Greece, but they are all of what the Greeks exemplify in our history, the ability to win despite odds or enemy. For 400 years the idea that you enemy might be the Spartans was sufficient to convince people to consider running. Until the period a century before the Macedonians, Spartans were the premier warriors of Greece. They taught the entire Greek peninsula how to fight, and while Sparta is merely a small rather boring town now, they proved what man alone could do.

SOCIETY: The Spartan society was broken into two parts; Helots, those who served, and Hoplites, those who fought. Four city states swore allegiance to the Spartans, these people, the Helots, supplied the needs of the Spartan people themselves. But the Spartans paid for that service. From the age of seven, a Spartan boy belonged to the state. From that age to fourteen, they were being trained, and from fourteen until they died, they could be called up at any time. But according to Spartan law, the army cannot march unless led by their king, which is why of all the nations of the world, Sparta is the only one that had two kings; one to lead the army, another to administer the city.

The words spoken by every Spartan mother giving their son his shield says it all. ‘With this or on this’. Come home in victory, or carried in death. It was once said that Sparta had no walls, because their army was that wall. It was also said that one on one they were the best warriors of their age. The Greek name for the Spartans was Lacedomon. The term ‘laconic’ was coined for them. If you see the movie the 300 Spartans, do not judge that people by how eloquent the actors playing Spartans are. When the Persian Ambassador sent to accept the surrender of Sparta came, and was rejected, he said ‘When we sack your city, we will rape all you women!’. The Spartan king answered ‘If’.

All you need to look at to prove this contention is the battle of Thermoplae.

In 480 BCE, the second invasion of Greece by the Persians occurred. Under the King Xerxes, they not only marched through Thessaly, but also built a bridge of ships across the Dardenelles where Istanbul now stands. It was claimed originally that this army numbered over a million men though modern historians assume the number was closer to half that number. But even if you use the lower number, the numbers outweighed every Greek fighting man of every city-state of that nation by ten-to one.

What the Greeks needed desperately was time, time to muster all the men they could, and time to prepare their defenses. If a force could man and stand in the narrow pass at Thermoplae, they could gain that time.

Leonidas, one of the kings of Sparta was at the council of the Greeks, and he promised to march. In his own words, spoken from the spirit of his own people, he told that council ‘The Spartans will fight, whether others follow or not’. With those words he swore on his own honor to lead the fight.

However, his society caused it’s own problems. The Spartans were a fiercely religious people, and to march, the Spartan Army would have been in violation of a religious festival.

Picture the army of the Original State of Israel at the time of Solomon, marching on Yom Kippur, when everyone is supposed to be at home, thinking of all the sins they must atone for.

But Leonidas had sworn his people would march. Rather than violate his oath, Leonidas marched leading only his bodyguard; 300 men. Again, you cannot measure them by mere numbers.

Picture the modern day army. Now picture just 300 men. Not the best at drill, not at keeping their brass polished. But 300 stark warriors better than any other man in the army. This is what Sparta sent.

These men, leading 2700 other Greeks stood in a pass less than 20 meters wide, bounded by a sheer mountain on one side, and a cliff and the sea on the other. But the Spartans were the spear point of that small force.

Their stand did not last long; only a few days. But that period has so much history recorded. When Hydarnes, the premier General of the Persians demanded that the Spartans lay down their arms, Leonidas replied, ‘Come and take them’.

The Spartans lost, but it wasn’t because of Persian valor or one-on-one superiority. You see, the story of Thermoplae is also a story of betrayal. The Spartans were betrayed. A Greek showed the Persians a small pass through the mountains, which allowed them to cut the Spartans off. That man is considered such a traitor that his name is not remembered. He is merely called Ephialtes.

Most of the Greek force escaped, ordered to retreat by Leonidas. But bound by his word, Leonidas and his men refused that option. Leonidas sent one last message. ‘Go tell the Spartans that we stand here obedient to their word’, an insult to the members of the Spartan Council, that had decided not to send the bulk of their troops to support Leonidas. A message that shamed them into sending the troops that later stood as part of a united Greece at Salamis and Platea.

When Leonidas was killed, the 30 or so survivors were offered their lives if they would surrender the body. The reply of the senior survivor Penteus was ‘We stay with our king’.

It would have been interesting what would have happened if the entire Spartan army had marched; or if Ehpialtes had not betrayed them. After only that few days just the rumor that Spartans were among their enemies caused panic among the Persian levies. Half a million men terrified by one thousandth their numbers.

In the pass, there is a monument now. And the Delphic oracle’s prediction, that Leonidas would be the best remembered of all Greeks, is the truth today.

SPARTAN DECLINE;

There were those among the Spartans that assumed that just because they did fight, they were superior in every way. If a Helot began to foment rebellion, these men would not face them on equal terms, rather they would attack them and their families at night acting little better than thugs. Militarily the Spartans began to falter because the weapons of their time did not change fast enough to force more innovation. Soon everyone was as good at war, the Spartans were bled white, and the entire Greek society collapsed from warring among themselves not long later.

SAMURAI

The word Samurai means ‘to serve’ and that was the entire purpose their lives. From birth, the Samurai child was taught by the code of Bushido, the ‘way of the warrior’. The best remembered quote from Bushido is ‘Death is as light as a feather, duty heavier than a mountain’. Duty to your lord, duty to your nation, duty to your emperor.

Japanese history is replete with stories of their sense of honor. The 47 Ronin is such a story, Men who defamed their names for years for only one purpose, to convince the man who had caused their lord’s death that they were worthless. But once they were sure he had been lulled, they attacked his house, killed all of his guards along with their enemy, then committed seppuku on their lord’s grave. The 47 Ronin is told to Japan children to explain what honor means, and how far you might have to go to live up to it.

The problem was that they served a feudal society. Like Feudal Europe, Feudal Japan was beset with a number of nobles who wanted more power and were willing to rationalize why their version of right and proper truth.

As much as the people and the society thought otherwise, the Emperor; descendant of Amaterasu, herself had little or no power. The Daiymos, the nobles controlled the source of all wealth. The Emperor and his court owned houses, land, yet no money. The Emperors sometimes had to sell signatures on documents just to eat. The Seven Years of the 16th Century when the Japanese faced Admiral Yi Soon Shin was ‘authorized’ by such a signature. To run the government, you as the strongest of these thugs would petition the Emperor to give you the authority, whether it was as Kwampaku (Supreme Military dictator, the highest rank you could have if not born Samurai) or as Shogun. As Mejii commented in The Last Samurai; ‘I am the son of the gods when I say what they want’.

THE DECLINE OF THE SAMURAI

In the Early 17th Century the Tokugawa Shogunate was so bothered by the ideas the Europeans were importing that they refused contact with the outside world, closing their doors to the rest of the planet; a state of affairs that lasted two and a half centuries.

The movie the Last Samurai is a dramatization of the actual period that followed. When the US forced Japan to open it’s doors in 1855, then Emperor Mejii fell in love with technology. A number of entrepreneurs leaped on the bandwagon gaining control of the government.

But the average Samurai was not on that vehicle. It wasn’t that they could not accept change, only that they wanted something more gradual, they wanted to go more slowly. But greed now pushed the government. The same kind of greed that forced the ‘pacification’ of the Native Americans here. I don’t remember reading of any actual battles such as the movie showed, but the idea of 400 men standing against cannon, Gatling guns, and breech loading rifles armed only with bows, swords and spears is compelling. Their way of life was dying, and they were not giving up without a fight.

In 1881, the entire social class was abolished

There were times later in history when the Emperor refused to bow to pressure. When the Tojo government delivered the declaration of war in 1941, Emperor Hirohito refused to sign it. When he heard of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, it was also Hirohito that ordered the surrender.

But the attitude and spirit of the Samurai never really went away. The Japanese transplanted the bulk of it onto their armed forces, making the idea of honor secondary to duty and loyalty not to your lord, but to the government and the Emperor. This twisting of the attitude led to the Russo-Japanese war, the invasion of China, and eventually to WWII. As much as we are appalled by the carnage of that war, use the above meter to look at their actions not our own moral compass.


THE MANDALORIANS

My view of the Mandalorians is simple. Look at the groups I have expounded on. Try to model them on those groups, I pray. As Revan did in TSL, give them back their honor.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
What we die for...
Acceptance
KOTOR excerpts
Star Wars: The Beginning
Star Wars: Republic Dawn
Return From Exile
machievelli is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-30-2008, 06:31 AM   #2
knight 12167
Rookie
 
knight 12167's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: In Australian cyberspace
Posts: 188
A very interesting history lesson


Never was anything great achieved without danger.
knight 12167 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-20-2008, 03:56 PM   #3
CommanderQ
I should go.
 
CommanderQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 2,630
Current Game: Mass Effect
Forum Veteran Roleplayer Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Excellent comparison!

The Mandalorians have made mistakes in their choices of leaders and actions, but there are still good and honorable people among them.


you very much
If a tree would fall in the woods.....would the other trees laugh at it?
CommanderQ is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-21-2008, 08:58 AM   #4
Ztalker
Saving the world casually
 
Ztalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Normandy SR-2
Posts: 2,780
Forum Veteran 
Interesting history. Kind of an history 'geek' myself, I can't help to feel you have missed something.

All your sources are correct (although Greek mythology is...dubious in sourcing), your Samurai story is perfect.

If you'd like, you should go for the Karin Traviss books. She is currently shaping the Mandalorians exactly like you have done
I recommend the Republic Commando books. She explains much Mando culture and how the clones are trying to live up to the legacy left behind by the real Mandalorians.

Anyways, wanted to add another 'group' to your list:
-The Marines.

Spoke with a retired marine (age 24...) a little while ago. He pointed me to some MT's he experienced. MT's are Mental Training methods, which are NOT unlike the Spartan training.

Example:
-Officer says there's an X mile march ahead, with a car picking you up on the end. When you spot it, it will drive away purposely, so you have to do the run back too.
-Group was told to make pairs. Each pair got a heave wooden pole to carry. Carry through rivers, fields of mud, through the rain, through the woods.
They returned.
Officer asked: "Did you like it?"
Group answered: "Yes (officer)!"
Officer: "Then let's do it again!"

He literally told me, they were mentally 'broken down' and 'build up' again.
I have the feeling the Mandalorians had this too. Republic soldiers didn't.

Ztalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-23-2008, 11:02 PM   #5
machievelli
Local curmudgeon
 
machievelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 2,823
Current Game: Dungeonseige series
Hot Topic Starter Veteran Fan Fic Author Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztalker View Post
Interesting history. Kind of an history 'geek' myself, I can't help to feel you have missed something.

All your sources are correct (although Greek mythology is...dubious in sourcing), your Samurai story is perfect.
The battle of Thermoplae had been dramatized, but is historical fact, not myth. As for comments on attitude, I got them from histories of the Greeks.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
What we die for...
Acceptance
KOTOR excerpts
Star Wars: The Beginning
Star Wars: Republic Dawn
Return From Exile
machievelli is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-24-2008, 12:58 PM   #6
CommanderQ
I should go.
 
CommanderQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 2,630
Current Game: Mass Effect
Forum Veteran Roleplayer Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
I started thinking about it, and almost all of the Mandalores that lead the Mandalorians were very destructive. This could be another reason for the Mandalorian rep of blood-thirstyness and war. Mandalore the Ultimate lead a crusade that slaughtered the better half of the outer rim and laid waste to any world that presented a threat.

This is comparable to World War 2, the Third Reich. Adolf Hitler, by all means a crazy mad man, fooled the German people to believe that they were the super-human race. He then plunged them into a war that they didn't need{nobody needed it for that matter}. The German people have always had a good and honorable military force, but Hitler used it for his own private agenda and caused a war that laid waste to almost all of Europe, Africa, and the Russian territories of Asia. It took the Allies six years to subdue Hitler and many more years after that to help the world recover.

The Mandalorians, in a way, were fooled by Mandalore the Ultimate. He forced them by their natural military heritage, into waging a massive war against the Republic. And in the end, it was for his own agenda to the rising Sith Empire. Of course, Revan came into the war, and we all know how that went.

So, maybe much like our world's empires, the Mandalorian's rep was formed by one person or a small group that lead. This was just a possibility, and we know that there are still good and honorable people even on the supposed "bad" side.


you very much
If a tree would fall in the woods.....would the other trees laugh at it?
CommanderQ is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-24-2008, 08:05 PM   #7
machievelli
Local curmudgeon
 
machievelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 2,823
Current Game: Dungeonseige series
Hot Topic Starter Veteran Fan Fic Author Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CommanderQ View Post
This is comparable to World War 2, the Third Reich. Adolf Hitler, by all means a crazy mad man, fooled the German people to believe that they were the super-human race.
So, maybe much like our world's empires, the Mandalorian's rep was formed by one person or a small group that lead. This was just a possibility, and we know that there are still good and honorable people even on the supposed "bad" side.
The only problem with the logic of the argument is that except for a vanishingly small number, most of the military leaders were nowhere near the pure 'to the death' Nazis. I did some research into a group called the Waffen SS after reading John Ringo's 'Watch on the Rhine'. Of that group 85 percent were men who believed not in the cause but in the defense of their country. A group that consistently told Hitler and Himmler to go to hell. Fought on even when they knew they could not win not because of orders, but because they would not admit defeat.

Sure there were dyed in the wool Nazis who fought because of the cause, but unlike the true warriors of the Waffen SS they were the ones who ran like hell when the war was lost.

The true warriors of the Waffen SS surrendered when ordered to do so, and were roundly condemned because they wore a black uniform with lightning bolts on the collar and Swastikas. Were condemned in courts because when prisoners were killed no one else were horrible enough to have done so, were blamed right along with the 15% who ran the camps, and ran away rather than face the wrath of the Allies.

As for the Allies, they were not simon pure, but at Nurnberg oddly enough the one specific statement that is never recorded, though said more often than the infamous 'I was only obeying orders' were the words the Judges used when the Defense attorneys used example.

Those words? 'We won, and you are the ones on trial'.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
What we die for...
Acceptance
KOTOR excerpts
Star Wars: The Beginning
Star Wars: Republic Dawn
Return From Exile
machievelli is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-24-2008, 09:55 PM   #8
CommanderQ
I should go.
 
CommanderQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 2,630
Current Game: Mass Effect
Forum Veteran Roleplayer Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Your definately right on the SS and at the end of the war with the Nuremburg trials. By that time, the SS that stood for home and country were blended with the die-hard Nazis and forced to pay a price that Hitler cowardly abandoned the German people to pay for him. The Nuremburg Trials brought out the most evil of both sides you could say. The Allies hated the Axis soldiers and in some cases denied them a fair trial to soldiers who were comparatively more innocent then people like Heinrich Himmler or Herman Goering. The Trials also showed the true Nazis, the ones that showed no remorse for actions like the Malmedy massacre or numerous executions on the Russian front. Or, in Adolf Eichmann's trial many many years later, chuckled at remembering their actions.

So, the Mandalorians are very comparable to the Waffen SS and other military branches of World War 2. The end of the Mandalorian Wars reflects highly on the Nuremburg trials. Most of their treatment was due to a "certain point of view." Much like how the Nuremburg Trials were.


you very much
If a tree would fall in the woods.....would the other trees laugh at it?
CommanderQ is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-24-2008, 11:49 PM   #9
machievelli
Local curmudgeon
 
machievelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 2,823
Current Game: Dungeonseige series
Hot Topic Starter Veteran Fan Fic Author Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CommanderQ View Post
The Trials also showed the true Nazis, the ones that showed no remorse for actions like the Malmedy massacre or numerous executions on the Russian front. Or, in Adolf Eichmann's trial many many years later, chuckled at remembering their actions.

So, the Mandalorians are very comparable to the Waffen SS and other military branches of World War 2. The end of the Mandalorian Wars reflects highly on the Nuremburg trials. Most of their treatment was due to a "certain point of view." Much like how the Nuremburg Trials were.
Case in point; The Malmedy massacre was blamed on both the 32nd Wehrmact Panzer (Normal German Army) and Hitler Jugend, which was Waffen SS. But the 'crime' was laid on Jugend's doorstep, along with Joachim Peiper because they were SS.

As Ringo pointed out, a massacre just as bloody was carried out on Sicily by American troops. When an American Infantry officer decided (twice mind you) that they had too many prisoners to guard efficiently, and ordered the guards to 'remove' the problem.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
What we die for...
Acceptance
KOTOR excerpts
Star Wars: The Beginning
Star Wars: Republic Dawn
Return From Exile
machievelli is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-25-2008, 12:14 PM   #10
CommanderQ
I should go.
 
CommanderQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 2,630
Current Game: Mass Effect
Forum Veteran Roleplayer Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Yes, I'm familiar with Joacham Peiper and and the 32nd panzer division and its Hitler Jugend support division. True, also that American troops during the Sicily campaigns did conduct similar if not worse massacres of German troops. There were many other occasions were Allied troops killed their prisoners, many of which were ignored and not brought about in a court marshal. There were many occasions during the Battle of the Bulge where German prisoners were executed in retaliation to massacres similar to Malmedy.


you very much
If a tree would fall in the woods.....would the other trees laugh at it?
CommanderQ is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-25-2008, 12:29 PM   #11
CommanderQ
I should go.
 
CommanderQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 2,630
Current Game: Mass Effect
Forum Veteran Roleplayer Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
If we want to see something more evil then Nazis, then look at the actions of Soviet soldiers when they went on the offensive. In some places on the line, no German prisoners were taken, especially if they were Waffen SS. The Russians did this for "payback" in a way. he Germans had conducted many large massacres of innocent civilians that were accused of being partisans{half the time they weren't}. Joacham Peiper's division was reknown for "Burning through Russia." So this gave the Soviets an ample excuse to do whatever they wanted with the German civilians and soldiers. The Russians were brutal when trying to enact revenge{not that the other Allies weren't}.
The Soviet attacks were all fueled by a passion of the "Great Patriotic War," as they called it.

The lines of what is good and what is bad are often blurred in war{ no matter what rules are made to make war more civilized}. There are no rules in combat. I guess if you think about it, everything that were talking about here woould probably have to do with what cause a country fights for, and that may shape what happens on the lines. What do you think, Machievelli?


you very much
If a tree would fall in the woods.....would the other trees laugh at it?

Last edited by CommanderQ; 10-26-2008 at 07:08 PM.
CommanderQ is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-25-2008, 11:31 PM   #12
machievelli
Local curmudgeon
 
machievelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 2,823
Current Game: Dungeonseige series
Hot Topic Starter Veteran Fan Fic Author Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CommanderQ View Post
The lines of what is good and what is bad are often blurred in war{ no matter what rules are made to make war more civilized}. There are no rules in combat. I guess if you think about it, everything that were talking about here woould probably have to do with what cause a country fights for, and that may shape what happens on the lines. Wat do you think, Machievelli?
Historically, there are several things to consider; First, the Russians had the attitude that the soldiers were more important than the civilians. An old woman was expected to bust her hump for little or no food so the army had their needs. If you couldn't work, they didn't feed you. Almost a third of the casualties of that war in Russia were people who starved to feed the troops.

Second, the NKVD, the forerunner of the KGB sent men behind the lines to join the partisans in their fight. But their primary job was to test the political reliability of the rebels. If they were 'true communists', they were supported. If not the NKVD arranged to eliminate them, making it look like the Germans had caught them.

Not that it helped. The 'true' warriors were paraded through Moscow as heroes, then sent off to Siberia. Too dangerous to trust.

Third, there was a trial right after the Warsaw ghetto uprising. That trial was of a Wermacht sergeant. His crime? When ordered to execute a handful of captured Jews, he refused.

That man faced a Nazi court and was exonerated, because he stood on the Prussian Ethic, which stated that an illegal order does not have to be obeyed!

Last, Right before the Normandy Invasion, a JAG officer pointed out that under military law, they could not try someone for something that was not a crime under law. You see, only one nation in that war had a law in their Military handbooks that made it legal to refuse an illegal order; and that was the German army.

This did not change until August of 1944 when both the British and the Americans reissued their 'rules of land warfare' to include that.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
What we die for...
Acceptance
KOTOR excerpts
Star Wars: The Beginning
Star Wars: Republic Dawn
Return From Exile
machievelli is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-26-2008, 07:24 PM   #13
CommanderQ
I should go.
 
CommanderQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 2,630
Current Game: Mass Effect
Forum Veteran Roleplayer Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
That's very true about the Russians, they had a very strong attitude of Militarism and its importance. So much so they almost left the rest of their country go on its own funding for a time {except the working industry and food industry that supported the troops}. The NKVD also earned their reputation of brutality through acts like the ones with the partisans, and pretty much everyone for that matter{including the military with Stalin's Order 337, I think, though that was enforced mostly by commisars}.

I didn't know about the German law that made disobeying an illegal law legal, so I thank you for that knowledge. This has been really interesting conversation on history, and a good lesson for me. Thank you for your time on the history, Machievelli.

*offers hand to shake*

Would it be alright if I sent you a message concerning history if I have a question?


you very much
If a tree would fall in the woods.....would the other trees laugh at it?
CommanderQ is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-26-2008, 11:07 PM   #14
machievelli
Local curmudgeon
 
machievelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 2,823
Current Game: Dungeonseige series
Hot Topic Starter Veteran Fan Fic Author Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CommanderQ View Post
This has been really interesting conversation on history, and a good lesson for me. Thank you for your time on the history, Machievelli.

*offers hand to shake*

Would it be alright if I sent you a message concerning history if I have a question?

All questions answered because I love to teach.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
What we die for...
Acceptance
KOTOR excerpts
Star Wars: The Beginning
Star Wars: Republic Dawn
Return From Exile
machievelli is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 12-27-2008, 09:49 PM   #15
vanir
Forumite
 
vanir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: south of Gundagai
Posts: 632
Well I'd offer one correction in the Samurai description in terms of referencing international US Hollywood propaganda such as The Last Samurai. The United States had nothing to do with Meiji's restructuring of the military, the army was modelled after the Prussian system and the navy after the British. German and British advisors were used and the movie referenced is complete and utter fiction in each and every detail.

A better appreciation of Samurai can also be gleaned with empathy moreso than outside the square. It was a hereditary title conferred by family tradition and (originally) Imperial consecration and not an otherwise attainable social class. Samurai families were not recognised until many generations after their formation. Eventually a family martial tradition (tied to a regional residence), would simply become referred to as Samurai by the Emperor or appropriate agent. In this sense it was a very long-winded process, typically begun by some martial genius and finally reaped by his great grandsons and other blood relatives. Most importantly the title described a family martial tradition, a particular way of fighting which was developed by and unique to that particular family. Details of it were recorded in code upon well guarded scrolls, when no more blood relatives of a particular line were available to continue the tradition the Samurai family was considered extinguished and its scrolls either handed to an associate family or given over to the Emperor for safe keeping in a museum. Today many of these scrolls, of Samurai families extincted in this manner can be viewed at the Museum of Japan. Those whom never attained Samurai status before extinction were commonly referred to as Ninja families (which is the truest nature of their role in Japanese history, though described in Japanese fiction as magical forest-dwelling assassins and in western fiction as simply criminal assassin organisations...in truth some served famous Samurai families as powerful peasant-warriors or were Shugenja warrior-priests, on the way to becoming future Samurai families or falling by the wayside trying to...the character and term Nin means "persistance" and in Star Wars terms they are really families of Jedi Padawans upon journeys of self discovery).

During the Tokugawa period there were many concerns between the Samurai of an evolving social structure and the inherently feudal nature of the warrior-aristocracy. For prestige many families begun open martial schools instructing a limited introduction to the particular tradition (its finer points only available to blood relatives) and this practise served to invite challenges by less prestigious Samurai. Several veteran Samurai were murdered in the street for less experienced and more recently consecrated families to gain a faster road to national prestige. One famous story involves the introduction of Iaijutsu (practised today as Iaito, the art of drawing and striking with the sword in a fluid motion), in which a veteran Samurai dispatched a challenger at the steps of his dojo whilst the younger, stronger but less experienced warrior was busy drawing his weapon in the more traditional manner (making a big theatrics about it and shouting insults and so forth).
Combined with the increased power of the Daimyo and virtually unquestioned authority of the Shogunate, these themes conspired to create a situation of runaway violence and feudalism in a nation which was already being left behind by the rest of the world politically and technologically. The Meiji Restoration placed power back in the hands of the Emperor and politicians and sought to substitute a traditional military structure for the warrior-aristocracy.

---------------------------

I've always been a bit interested in the Mandalorians as the original swap cards of around 1980 alluded to a very different history than what later became canon due to the prequels.
Boba Fett was described as wearing the armour of a Mandalorian Warrior, those soldiers who fought the Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars, but became mercinaries and bounty hunters following their defeat.
The allusion was that Mandalorians would capture Jedi Knights and clone them, then send the insane Force wielding clone back at the Jedi.
It was fascinating.
vanir is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 12-27-2008, 10:03 PM   #16
machievelli
Local curmudgeon
 
machievelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 2,823
Current Game: Dungeonseige series
Hot Topic Starter Veteran Fan Fic Author Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanir View Post
Well I'd offer one correction in the Samurai description in terms of referencing international US Hollywood propaganda such as The Last Samurai. The United States had nothing to do with Meiji's restructuring of the military, the army was modelled after the Prussian system and the navy after the British. German and British advisors were used and the movie referenced is complete and utter fiction in each and every detail.
The primary stimulus applied by America was Perry's 'opening the door' to Japan. It is a fact that like others the US did try to convince them, and as the movie portrayed, the Japanese Zaibatsu played them one against the other.

While the movie does portray us in both bad and good light, it is not what I would define as propaganda. I leave that for Tora Tora Tora and Pearl Harbor, where history plays second fiddle to what the Propagandists want us to believe.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
What we die for...
Acceptance
KOTOR excerpts
Star Wars: The Beginning
Star Wars: Republic Dawn
Return From Exile
machievelli is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 12-27-2008, 10:22 PM   #17
vanir
Forumite
 
vanir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: south of Gundagai
Posts: 632
We're talking about the same movie, right?
vanir is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 12-27-2008, 10:26 PM   #18
machievelli
Local curmudgeon
 
machievelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 2,823
Current Game: Dungeonseige series
Hot Topic Starter Veteran Fan Fic Author Helpful! Forum Veteran 
yes. The training by the US was fictionalized true.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
What we die for...
Acceptance
KOTOR excerpts
Star Wars: The Beginning
Star Wars: Republic Dawn
Return From Exile
machievelli is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 12-27-2008, 10:27 PM   #19
CommanderQ
I should go.
 
CommanderQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 2,630
Current Game: Mass Effect
Forum Veteran Roleplayer Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Wait, Tora Tora Tora wasn't propaganda. It was told from both the Japanese and American views, it wasn't really biased either. It was simply the telling of a certain battle during WW2, oh, that and Pearl Harbor wasn't the best movie I've seen, probably not good propaganda either.


you very much
If a tree would fall in the woods.....would the other trees laugh at it?
CommanderQ is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 12-27-2008, 10:32 PM   #20
machievelli
Local curmudgeon
 
machievelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 2,823
Current Game: Dungeonseige series
Hot Topic Starter Veteran Fan Fic Author Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CommanderQ View Post
Wait, Tora Tora Tora wasn't propaganda. It was told from both the Japanese and American views, it wasn't really biased either. It was simply the telling of a certain battle during WW2, oh, that and Pearl Harbor wasn't the best movie I've seen, probably not good propaganda either.
It also trivialized the fact that the US had been reading the diplomatic mail since February on 1941, and when the Legation in Pearl Harbor was ordered to track ship movements daily from 29 Sept on, Pearl Harbor was not informed. They read an excerpt of the 'war warning' of that date leaving out the believed Japanese intentions that were part of that same warning, 'To attack the Phillipines Kra Peninsula (Malaya Thailand) and New Guinea' which was part of it.

As I commented to a friend, if you are warned that a mortal enemy is expected to be 6-7000 miles away, how ready are you for attack?

As for Pearl Harbor; they paid lip service to the truth by having a Naval Commander make a comment about it, while the 4head men in the US Military knew the evening before but didn't bother to carry out their sworn duty and inform all commands


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
What we die for...
Acceptance
KOTOR excerpts
Star Wars: The Beginning
Star Wars: Republic Dawn
Return From Exile
machievelli is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 12-28-2008, 12:40 AM   #21
vanir
Forumite
 
vanir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: south of Gundagai
Posts: 632
I apolegise, I didn't mean to detract any of your excellent and highly informative threads Machievelli, only simply to participate in any possible expansion upon the useful writers' foundations you've set.
vanir is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 12-28-2008, 01:04 AM   #22
machievelli
Local curmudgeon
 
machievelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 2,823
Current Game: Dungeonseige series
Hot Topic Starter Veteran Fan Fic Author Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanir View Post
I apolegise, I didn't mean to detract any of your excellent and highly informative threads Machievelli, only simply to participate in any possible expansion upon the useful writers' foundations you've set.
The information you gave was cogent and informative. I was just reacting as I did when someone earlier called the battle of Thermopylae 'mythical'.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
What we die for...
Acceptance
KOTOR excerpts
Star Wars: The Beginning
Star Wars: Republic Dawn
Return From Exile
machievelli is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 12-28-2008, 11:06 PM   #23
OurauCrawler
Lurker
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1
Look at it this way, the Mandalorians were a warring people, of course they negotiate, they "agressivly negotiate" generaly with Verpine Sniper rifles and giant war-ships. Look, it was a great war, the mandalorians, in most battles had a 10 to 1 kill ratio, in their eyes and mine they won honor for mandalore. To quote Mandalore himself,
"You had us outnumbered five to one. You had more ships, more troops, more supplies and the Jedi on your side. And we still made the Republic tremble before we fell!"
OurauCrawler is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-24-2009, 11:59 AM   #24
machievelli
Local curmudgeon
 
machievelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 2,823
Current Game: Dungeonseige series
Hot Topic Starter Veteran Fan Fic Author Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OurauCrawler View Post
Look at it this way, the Mandalorians were a warring people, of course they negotiate, they "agressivly negotiate" generaly with Verpine Sniper rifles and giant war-ships. Look, it was a great war, the mandalorians, in most battles had a 10 to 1 kill ratio, in their eyes and mine they won honor for mandalore. To quote Mandalore himself,
"You had us outnumbered five to one. You had more ships, more troops, more supplies and the Jedi on your side. And we still made the Republic tremble before we fell!"
All true. I just want them treated as warriors, not homicidal sadists who kill and maim because they can


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
What we die for...
Acceptance
KOTOR excerpts
Star Wars: The Beginning
Star Wars: Republic Dawn
Return From Exile
machievelli is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-17-2009, 06:02 AM   #25
vanir
Forumite
 
vanir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: south of Gundagai
Posts: 632
To reinforce the point, also true that warlike peoples cannot be said to be entirely barren of culture and civilisation. The Greeks were very warlike yet their immense contribution not only to art, science and culture but also democracy cannot be denied.

Agreed a mixed combination, in equal parts of Japanese warrior-aristocracy and Spartan military culture is perhaps the most direct comparison to the Mandalorians as portrayed in KotOR.
It was a good call, that.
vanir is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Knights of the Old Republic > Community > Coruscant Entertainment Centre > The Resource Centre > How to understand the Mandalorians:

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:06 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.