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Old 12-27-2010, 10:29 PM   #1
Klw
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Convince me (spoiler) . . .

. . . that the new Starkiller is actually a clone. If he is then I will also officially be convinced that this game was just a money grab (as if the absurdly short campaign length and the cliffhanger at the end which conveniently leads into a third game weren't enough).
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:53 PM   #2
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Why would anyone be crazy enough to try to convince anybody Starkiller was a clone in the 2nd game when there wasn't a clear answer in the game?


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Old 12-28-2010, 01:23 AM   #3
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Both major Star Wars wikis are practically claiming it as fact, and that troubles me. It might be based on the novelization or something like that.
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Old 12-28-2010, 01:46 AM   #4
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The end of the novelization of the first game describes his death, as well as his soul leaving his body. There you go.


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Old 12-28-2010, 02:49 AM   #5
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Then why didn't they just come out and say it? To me it seems like they must have had Kota express his doubts for a reason. There are also some other suspicious clues:
1. Vader is constantly lying and deceiving. In the first game he changed his story every time they met.
2. Memory is not stored in DNA.
3. The "distant thunder body" from the challenges is not wearing the robes that Marek died in.
4. The novelization for the first game may have been written before the second game was planned. Star Wars has been known to contradict itself in its sequels.

But that is a pretty good reason to argue that he is a clone. Thank you.

To me, cloning is just a gimmick to resurrect an old storyline. Clone or not, the plot for this game was pretty weak. What with all of the flashbacks strewn everywhere it seems more like the sentimental reunion episode of a sitcom than the sequel of a motion picture. When Kota said that the fate of the entire rebellion rested on the battle of Kamino I was really disinclined to believe him. The storyline went from being great to "remembering the good old days" in the blink of an eye. That's why I hate clones.
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Old 12-28-2010, 03:30 AM   #6
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You can find plenty of past debates and arguments on this very subject here on the Force Unleashed forums. All of your points have been discussed before, except your #2. My short answer for that would be: Yeah, memory isn't stored in DNA, but this is the force we're talking about and this IS Starwars. So the idea here is that if Marek is indeed a clone, then his spirit from his original self must have transfered to his clone body or something, like in Dark Empire when the Emperor was resurrected and his force spirit took over his new young clone body. The only problem with that theory is that ALL of the clones of Marek had the memories of the original according to Vader, and they all failed except the Starkiller we control. I would like for there to be a good explanation that this is the original Starkiller or a VERY GOOD explanation saying that he's a clone.

I just really hope that they explain themselves good for TFU3, if it does come out after all.


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Old 12-28-2010, 09:22 AM   #7
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Have I missed something? I didn't notice the words "DNA" or "genetic" anywhere in the game. Vader talks about "memory flashes", I always kinda assumed he had some kind of process by which he extracted memories from Starkiller's dead brain and inserted them into a new living brain.
Also, the distant thunder body does wear the clothes Starkiller got stabbed in the back by Vader in. I still think Starkiller's been dead a long time and we've been playing a clone since halfway through TFU1.
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Old 12-28-2010, 10:12 AM   #8
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. . .I will also officially be convinced that this game was just a money grab
That's because it was!


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Yeah, memory isn't stored in DNA, but this is the force we're talking about and this IS Starwars. So the idea here is that if Marek is indeed a clone, then his spirit from his original self must have transfered to his clone body or something,
This was what I was expecting after hearing Starkiller was back!


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The only problem with that theory is that ALL of the clones of Marek had the memories of the original according to Vader, and they all failed except the Starkiller we control.
I don't ever remember the clone troopers(who become stormtroopers) having to deal with memories or flashbacks with Jango Fett. So, its not something natural, but most likely something Vader did to him. How that was, I haven't a clue!

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Have I missed something? I didn't notice the words "DNA" or "genetic" anywhere in the game. Vader talks about "memory flashes", I always kinda assumed he had some kind of process by which he extracted memories from Starkiller's dead brain and inserted them into a new living brain.
Cloning has everything to do with DNA and genetics. And memory is from experiance, its not something you can suck out of a brain.

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I still think Starkiller's been dead a long time and we've been playing a clone since halfway through TFU1.
This theory really upsets me. It's bad enough TFU2 didn't turn out well, but now they want to screw with the original game. It reminds me of Lucas and his prequels.

And I highly doubt we were playing as a clone starkiller in the second half of the game. He obviously didn't do Vader's bidding, why keep making more. That's stupid and their dumbing down Vader even more.


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Old 12-28-2010, 01:33 PM   #9
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like in Dark Empire when the Emperor was resurrected
As I've said before on LF, that's just ridiculous. So Anakin didn't balance the force; he just set it back a little?

This is why I don't want Starkiller to be a clone - it makes the original Starkiller's death mean less. Then again, any reemergence of a character that has been nobly martyred is going to ruin the effect of the martyrdom. I.E. He gave his life to save us . . . wait, never mind.

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Old 12-28-2010, 01:46 PM   #10
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Memory is from experiance, its not something you can suck out of a brain.
Um, hello? Star Wars? Spaceships, hovercars, rubber forehead aliens? Dudes with magical powers?

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And I highly doubt we were playing as a clone starkiller in the second half of the game. He obviously didn't do Vader's bidding, why keep making more. That's stupid and their dumbing down Vader even more.
By your logic, we should've given up on the whole idea of aviation after Lilienthal got himself killed on one of his gliders. Clearly it's never going to work and the whole process is stupid and pointless.
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Old 12-28-2010, 01:53 PM   #11
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Welp, I don't want to ruin anybody's fun, but there's a few things to consider, most of them not exactly hidden within the story.

There's the fact that we have no evidence whatsoever that the original Starkiller's soul or what-have-you survived his death (and in case anyone cares, the aforementioned novelization makes a case against that belief).

Then there's the presence of the cloning facility itself. The Starkiller we follow in the story was grown in a vat. For whatever reason, he's being tormented by the original one's memories, but that isn't evidence that he's special, since the other clones all went through the same thing. The only thing that sets this one apart is that he actually managed to escape Vader (his predecessors probably made similar breakout attempts, but failed).

Furthermore, that cloning in real life does not give copies the memories - or even skills - of the host is irrelevant, since cloning in fiction virtually never works that way. It certainly doesn't in Star Wars, as evidenced by the clone army seen in the prequels and a few other odds and ends from EU sources.

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I don't ever remember the clone troopers(who become stormtroopers) having to deal with memories or flashbacks with Jango Fett. So, its not something natural, but most likely something Vader did to him. How that was, I haven't a clue!
My personal theory is that cloning gets exponentially more complicated if Force-sensitivity is involved, such that for whatever reason, clones of Jedi have some sort of link to the original's memories (since as you said, Jango's clones seemed fine).


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Old 12-28-2010, 02:35 PM   #12
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The Starkiller we follow in the story was grown in a vat.
Do we know that? The first time we see him is when Vader releases him from his stint in the cell where he'd been without food or water (and not for the first time either).

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For whatever reason, he's being tormented by the original one's memories, but that isn't evidence that he's special, since the other clones all went through the same thing.
Again, do we know that? The only source for this information is Vader, and he lies a lot.

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The only thing that sets this one apart is that he actually managed to escape Vader.
Ah, but did he? Given that TFU2 ends without a conclusion, my guess is the story is essentially the same as in TFU1 - Starkiller seems to break free of Vader only for it to be reavealed that he's unwittingly done exactly what Vader wanted him to. In the case of TFU2+3 that would be getting Vader and a loyal clone to the secret Rebel base. In the canonical light side ending the rebels have no idea the dark clone even exists. It's fairly logical to assume that he stowed away on board the Rogue Shadow in order to follow his master, so once they arrive all he needs to do is set Vader free and between the two of them they can tear the Rebel base apart.

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My personal theory is that cloning gets exponentially more complicated if Force-sensitivity is involved, such that for whatever reason, clones of Jedi have some sort of link to the original's memories (since as you said, Jango's clones seemed fine).
If we take Vader's word for it, it's due to the accelerated cloning process. Jango clones grew at only twice the normal rate and appeared to be educated in a relatively convenional manner. Starkiller clones apparently take only a few months to fully mature.
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Old 12-28-2010, 03:28 PM   #13
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Do we know that? The first time we see him is when Vader releases him from his stint in the cell where he'd been without food or water (and not for the first time either).
There's no other place it could have come from, especially since the "Distant Thunder" cinematics show that the actual Starkiller's corpse is kept in a room somewhere.

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Again, do we know that? The only source for this information is Vader, and he lies a lot.
Yes, because there is no reason to assume Vader is lying about the residual memories thing.


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Old 12-28-2010, 03:46 PM   #14
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the "Distant Thunder" cinematics show that the actual Starkiller's corpse is kept in a room somewhere.
But there are a lot of cloned bodies lying around. Vader could have dressed one of them up and shown it to Starkiller as false evidence, not to mention that the body is not wearing the robes Marek died in and there would have been no reason to redress the corpse.
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Old 12-28-2010, 04:59 PM   #15
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There's no other place it could have come from, especially since the "Distant Thunder" cinematics show that the actual Starkiller's corpse is kept in a room somewhere.
As Klw said, it shows a corpse that looks like Starkiller's. In a cloning facility full of Starkiller clones.

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Yes, because there is no reason to assume Vader is lying about the residual memories thing.
Actually yeah, there is, since the "is he really a clone?" aspect of the plot had been promoted pretty heavily pre-release. That's what we were told the game would be about. So hell yes is there a reason.
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:29 AM   #16
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Um, hello? Star Wars? Spaceships, hovercars, rubber forehead aliens? Dudes with magical powers?
I know the force can have a profound impact on a mind, but not if its from a dead body. There's no-as far as I know-any EU that explains this.


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but that isn't evidence that he's special, since the other clones all went through the same thing. The only thing that sets this one apart is that he actually managed to escape Vader
I agree that he isn't special, but his escape was too easy. Considering his potential, you'd think Vader would have taken more procausions. It's like the DLC endor level and the emperor orders to have the clone killed. They keep underestimating his abilities.

And the fact that the other clones-or as far as Vader says-had the same flashback memories, it doesn't help determine if he's the real starkiller or just a clone.


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My personal theory is that cloning gets exponentially more complicated if Force-sensitivity is involved, such that for whatever reason, clones of Jedi have some sort of link to the original's memories (since as you said, Jango's clones seemed fine).
I would agree, except General Kota said its impossible to clone a Jedi. And yet in the dark side ending Vader said he figured it out.


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Old 12-29-2010, 12:48 AM   #17
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But there are a lot of cloned bodies lying around. Vader could have dressed one of them up and shown it to Starkiller as false evidence, not to mention that the body is not wearing the robes Marek died in and there would have been no reason to redress the corpse.
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As Klw said, it shows a corpse that looks like Starkiller's. In a cloning facility full of Starkiller clones.
What reason would Vader have to lie about that being the real body? Also, I seriously don't think the fact that it has a different outfit should be taken as anything other than an oversight by the illustrators.

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Actually yeah, there is, since the "is he really a clone?" aspect of the plot had been promoted pretty heavily pre-release. That's what we were told the game would be about. So hell yes is there a reason.
What would that reason be? Can you come up with any other than "because the writers told us to" before release?

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I would agree, except General Kota said its impossible to clone a Jedi. And yet in the dark side ending Vader said he figured it out.
Kota doesn't mean that it's literally impossible, just that it doesn't work.


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Old 12-29-2010, 03:17 AM   #18
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The memory/DNA thing is a good arguing point for Starkiller not being a clone, except for one fact: the Starkiller that we play as in the game is not the only one that possesses the old Starkiller's memories. We know from the "Distant Thunder" videos that the Dark Apprentice also possesses all of Starkiller's memories, but has "overcome" them and has pretty much become a blind servant to Darth Vader with know real will of his own. But he did struggle with them, just as the clone that the main story follows struggled with the same memories.

Therefore, it is implied that either all of the clones possess Starkiller's memories, or at least some of them do. It doesn't make sense from a genetic point of view, and we don't know why it is so; but it is. Before the game came out, I also used to theorize that it was similar to the Dark Empire storyline with spirit transferal, but since the game seems to suggest that more than one clone possesses Starkiller's memory, as I've described above, I no longer think this is so. Rather, I suspect that something similar to the plot of the movie The Sixth Day is afoot, whereby the clones' memories are manually transferred from the host to the clone after the cloning process is complete, having something to do with the optic nerve (I don't remember exactly).

However, that would mean that Vader willingly ensured that Starkiller's clones possessed the original's memories. Why he would do this instead of starting over from scratch, I have no idea. Maybe it has something to do with Starkiller's skills and training being too perfect to start over again. Or perhaps the cloning process has improved since the Clone Wars, and memory transfer has become a standard part to the new and improved cloning process (remember that Jango Fett's clones did not possess his memories).

We may never know.


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Old 12-29-2010, 10:27 PM   #19
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What reason would Vader have to lie about that being the real body?
If the Dark Apprentice had any reason to believe that he was the real Starkiller who defeated Vader and saved the Rebellion, he might start to reconsider his decisions, kind of like a kid who's been told all his life that he's adopted only to discover that he was kidnapped. Believing that the real Starkiller truly died would also grant him some humility and maybe even warn him about the consequences of betraying Vader. (Yes, I just speculated that the Dark Apprentice could be the real Marek.)

It would seem that the very existence of the Dark Apprentice makes it far more likely that Starkiller is a clone, but I'm still holding on to a spark of hope that he isn't.

Edit:

It would appear from her odd behavior, her survival of a fatal fall, and Vader's last words that the new Juno is fake (from "micksith" on LucasArts forum). So what does this have to do with our debate? Just a thought - it seems like Vader is going all out to recover this one clone - he even wants to take him alive. Why would he go to so much trouble for a clone if he has the body and a "perfect" copy of it in his pocket already?

In the databank, a cloning facility employee complains about not having the original body to inspect.

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Old 12-30-2010, 12:51 PM   #20
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do you remember the early updates on the game's page? one of the clones had visions about Starkiller's present. maybe some other had or shared visions with him(i didn't read the book)and it might refer that Starkiller is the original one
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Old 12-30-2010, 02:31 PM   #21
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It doesn't matter to me TBH, because I dont like the idea of Cloning Force sensitives... so whether the Player is a Clone or not is irrelevant now. Not so Special when theres 2,000 of you :|


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Old 12-30-2010, 04:44 PM   #22
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spoilers




If the Dark ending means anything, meaning the Dark apprentice exists just didn't show his face, chances are he is a clone, not only because there is a living, breathing, fully functional clone walking around, but also because of the way Vader talks to him.
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:59 PM   #23
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However, that would mean that Vader willingly ensured that Starkiller's clones possessed the original's memories. Why he would do this instead of starting over from scratch, I have no idea.
Vader specifically says that he's been trying to remove the leftover memories thing, which means that he didn't deliberately put them in. This is why I think it's related to Force sensitivity.

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In the databank, a cloning facility employee complains about not having the original body to inspect.
Doesn't mean anything except that that employee wasn't allowed into that room where Vader was keeping said original body.

Another thing: If Starkiller as seen in TFU 2 was not a clone, then why does the facility on Kamino even exist?


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Old 12-30-2010, 05:11 PM   #24
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The facility on Kamino has existed long before Vader tried to clone Starkiller in it. Given the Empire's habit of overspending I wouldn't put it past Vader to run the whole Starkiller cloning program for no other reason than to screw with original Starkiller's head and convince him he's a clone.
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Old 12-30-2010, 05:49 PM   #25
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^Exactly. I don't think that Vader would go to the trouble of cloning Juno either if he weren't dealing with the original Starkiller.

Also - Kamino is where the clone troopers were made, so it was obviously built for other reasons.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:52 PM   #26
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Vader specifically says that he's been trying to remove the leftover memories thing, which means that he didn't deliberately put them in. This is why I think it's related to Force sensitivity.
Yeah, you could well be right, especially with Midi-chlorians and all that other nonsense that came along with the prequel baggage.

Hey, if anyone here is a fan of the Thrawn trilogy, I'm trying to remember: Did Joruus C'baoth possess his template's memories? Did Luuke Skywalker? If so, then the Force sensitivity theory may well be correct.


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Old 12-31-2010, 11:41 AM   #27
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Hey, if anyone here is a fan of the Thrawn trilogy, I'm trying to remember: Did Joruus C'baoth possess his template's memories? Did Luuke Skywalker? If so, then the Force sensitivity theory may well be correct.
Joruus C'baoth did indeed think that he was the actual C'baoth, who in reality died when the Outbound Flight project was destroyed. As for the clone of Luke, all we see him do is fight and get killed without a single word of dialogue, suggesting that he doesn't have much mental capacity beyond an attack dog.


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Old 01-01-2011, 08:44 AM   #28
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I don't think that Vader would go to the trouble of cloning Juno either if he weren't dealing with the original Starkiller.

well, he would need Juno's body for that right?




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Old 01-01-2011, 11:39 PM   #29
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well, he would need Juno's body for that right?
Juno was technically Vader's employee for a long time.
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:37 PM   #30
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Flame and f-bomb removed--again. --Jae

on the ACtUAL BOX- it says, Betrayed by Vader for the last time (!!!!!!) , Starkiller (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Has eScaped.
Not ClOne. Not Starkiller Cousin. NoT even Starkiller' s Evil TWin. STARKILLER. HIMSELF. ESCAPES.
AlSO- hOw many times haS an Average Clone Been betrayed by vader? Thats rIght -0 times. Only Real starkiller Was betrayed By DV and Now oly He can be betrrayed for the last (Not first) time.
iF u r nOt convInced- tHink, Why wuld vader Chase some sIlly crapy Clone aCross Galaxy, If he had like a 1000000 more of those On kAmino? Hes real, Ppl, Get used to it.

Oh, btW -tHose of ya asking stuff like oH, How Did he survive? hE's surely dead! ? He's a sIth, not a jedi, so itS only impossible toclon Jedi, not sith?- i sAy- StarKiller Is special. Get on with it.

Moderator note [01-02-2011 08:50 PM]

Removing moderator notes in order to re-post f-bombs and nasty comments to fellow members again is a fantastic way to get yourself banned. --Jae


Last edited by Jae Onasi; 01-02-2011 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 01-02-2011, 07:26 PM   #31
Qui-Gon Glenn
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^^^ Interesting points, not sure that the crazy capitalization helped you, or the insulting tone.

I am still unconvinced on either side, only intuition says "not a clone".


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Old 01-02-2011, 08:00 PM   #32
Zerimar Nyliram
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Starkiller is neither a Jedi nor a Sith.


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YOURS VERY SLOW ! PLS NEW PROGRESSS PLS NEW UPDATES PLS DARK FORCES FİNAL VERSİON İ CAN WAİTİNG KOTF PART 1 RELEASED 5 YEAR AND İTS 1 MAN ( OSMAN GUNYAZ DEVELOPERS ) BUT YOURS VERY PEOPLE İ CANT WAİTİNG 5 YEARS
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Old 01-02-2011, 08:26 PM   #33
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eEerm......
... omG- he Is a jEdi! 0_o
WelL, maybe a Grey- so cAlled- Jedi, neiter In lIght nor dark Side- But still..
oH, and reason why i Capitalise- Its like a bad habbit, dood. I just tought its more sTylish, And then it became habbit (((
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:49 PM   #34
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I think it's Starkiller. If they had successfully managed to clone Jedi, with the Empire's resources, I think the Rebels would have been fighting an army of Vaders, not Stormtroopers.

Just my opinion.
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:51 PM   #35
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I mean, why would they go through all that trouble to perfect the cloning process of a powerful force user that could just as easily be their enemy as their ally, when they have two completely devoted Sith to test infinitely.

I think they were probably using Starkiller to experiment with cloning, but he unexpectedly woke up, and Vader just had to improvise.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:18 AM   #36
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He's not a Jedi because the Jedi are an organization, of which he was never inducted into. The same goes for the Sith. He's just a lightsaber-wielding Force user not affiliated with any Force-using organization.


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Old 01-03-2011, 02:26 AM   #37
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Not sure how saying the Jedi is an organization really addresses the point. The word Jedi has nothing to do with the cloning process.

When they say they can't clone Jedi, they don't mean it's because of a political organization. It's because of the force, which was very strong in Starkiller.
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:11 AM   #38
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I was talking to Bliznez. "32w-9he's a j3di!!1111211!"


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Old 01-03-2011, 09:14 AM   #39
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the really confusing part for me, or i guess the part that makes me believe he is a clone, is if you choose the Dark Side ending,
spoiler:
when you are about to strike down Vader, another clone of Starkiller ends up killing you. Vader gets up saying that the cloning process has been perfected in the clone that had just stabbed you, and you were just a pawn to get the Rebels to come to Kamino, where he could eliminate them all


Personally my choice of ending, the light side ending was to "happy go lucky" for me, Starkiller is a tortured soul, there will be no happy endings for him.
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:53 AM   #40
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I was talking to Bliznez. "32w-9he's a j3di!!1111211!"
Oh, My apologies there, Zerimar.
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