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Old 05-25-2011, 10:16 PM   #1
Udvarnoky
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Grasp at straws to argue MI ripoff moments in Pirates 4 (SPOILERS)

Okeydoke, so what parts of the movie bear uncanny resemblance to Monkey Island this time around? The voodoo doll is sure to be a popular choice, although I'm quite partial to Jack Sparrow's "I was sure it would come to this" when in circumstances almost as improbable as Guybrush's when he said something similar near the end of EMI. I suppose any comparisons between the Penelope Cruz epilogue and Morgan LeFlay's would be a stretch at best, but would someone give me a pass on the "hit the right rum barrel, open the trapdoor in the tavern" part as reminiscent of Rum Roger's basement chute?

Is Blackbeard's penchant for roasting insubordinates with Greek Fire to transform them into obedient zombies a page out of the ol' Carnival of the Damned rollercoaster playbook? Is King George II a poor man's Governor Phatt? Was it only because Blackbeard was playing the Lite version that he didn't have to replace the lighthouse's mirror? Can the cleric/mermaid romance really hold a candle to what Van Winslow and Anemone had going?

On the other hand, were I Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, I'd probably consider it disingenuous for any other Lucasfilm property to whine about feeling used.

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Old 05-26-2011, 02:55 AM   #2
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I dunno if it's worth mentioning, but Jack's ways of escaping the authorities and other threats have always made me think of adventure game puzzles.
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Old 05-26-2011, 11:01 AM   #3
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Particularly that escape from King George's mansion, yeah.

Zombies who can still speak, fight and are generally formidable are definitely in Zombie LeChuck park. Blackbeard though actually seems less LeChuck-like than he was in the book, where his voodoo powers and ability to resurrect himself in another form were more important.

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Old 05-26-2011, 11:42 AM   #4
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Here's a similarity: both are based on fantastical depictions of a world of pirates.

Oh wait! That's actually the only similarity.
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Old 05-26-2011, 05:27 PM   #5
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Thank you, Gabez, for demonstrating why sitcoms are burdened with laugh tracks.
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Old 05-26-2011, 05:30 PM   #6
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Huh? What do you mean?
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Old 05-31-2011, 01:14 AM   #7
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Well, one way it's not like Monkey Island is that a lot of it really didn't make a lick of sense. Not to say it was confusing, but there's a lot of stuff that just doesn't work if you put any kind of logic to it. The whole ritual for the fountain, for one thing. In no other version of the legend of the Fountain of Youth have I heard of some kind of magical ritual being required in order to make the fountain work. And there's no explanation as to why the ritual has to be performed in order to make it work. Nor why they need Ponce De Leon's chalices specifically. Why couldn't they just make chalices of their own? Are there no other silver chalices anywhere in the world? The priest, for instance, probably would have had at least one chalice with him when they captured him, possibly made of silver, because priests are required to say the Mass at least once a day, and the things you need in order to have a proper Mass are a priest, a Bible, and bread and wine along with vessels to hold them (i.e. a paten[plate] for the bread and a chalice for the wine.) Of course, that is assuming that the missionary was in fact a Roman Catholic priest, which he is never specifically identified as, so it is possible that he was either a lay missionary, or a monk or friar, and it's possible he wasn't even Catholic. On the other hand, Blackbeard does refer to him as a Catechist, and I don't think there would have been a lot of unordained Catholic missionaries in the 1700's.


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Old 05-31-2011, 03:48 AM   #8
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It was Tia Dalma making things more convoluted than need be, because that's just the kind of god she is.

In all seriousness though, the ritual didn't strike me as particularly bothersome. Granted other mediums haven't featured such a ritual to my knowledge (I haven't read the book), but then we are talking about a completely mythological thing here with all sorts of different interpretations and histories — it's not like there's some definitive Fountain of Youth specification which has to be adhered to.

I think the ritual worked well as a MacGuffin to add some tension and drama beyond simply getting to the fountain first. Granted there could have been a bit more elaboration regarding the chalices — although the impression I got was that those specific (potentially ancient) ones were needed — but it didn't really detract from the film at all IMO. In fact I hadn't even thought about that until you just mentioned it.

I for one really enjoyed POTC4, but then I absolutely loved the original trilogy too which puts me on the other side of the fence to a fair few people.


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Old 05-31-2011, 10:49 AM   #9
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Well, I'm not necessarily bothered by the fact that there was a ritual involved. What bothers me is that no one explains *why* that *specific* ritual, with those *specific* ingredients is required. It wouldn't even have to be an elaborate explanation. They could have just said something like a voodoo priest put a protective spell over the fountain so not just anyone could use it. But that's not the only thing in the movie that should have been explained further, or at all. How does the priest know the mermaid's name? She doesn't tell it to him at any point onscreen. I suppose she could have told it to him while he was carrying her, but there's nothing to indicate that they've spoken before then. Perhaps she has psychic abilities and she told him with her mind, which would also explain how she knew not only that the final battle was going on, but also where the chalices were, and who she should give them to. But again, there is no dialogue to indicate that that is the case. The movie just makes it seem like the priest comes up with a name for her at random, so everyone calls her that name for the rest of the film as if it is her actual name, and she doesn't correct them. Then when the priest frees her, she just picks up the first shiny objects she sees and gives them to the first person she sees.


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Old 05-31-2011, 03:21 PM   #10
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I guess it wasn't explained as much as some things in the earlier movies, but I can't say it's something that particular bothers me. Whether or not I knew some guy cursed the fountain or whatever wouldn't really make any odds to my enjoyment of the movie. I just assume that like everything else it was down to the "heathen gods" responsible for Davy Jones, the Aztec Gold, etc.

When I was watching I kind of took it as he made up the mermaid's name on the spot to make her seem more human to those just treating her like an animal, but I can't remember that scene too precisely.


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Old 05-31-2011, 05:50 PM   #11
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I was under the impression that since the first POTC that critics have noted similarities between the games and the films.


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Old 06-01-2011, 06:07 AM   #12
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The thread title is a joke Blix.

At this point the relationship between Pirates of the Caribbean, Monkey Island, and the 80s On Stranger Tides book is so mixed and incestuous it'd be madness to try and determine what inspired what. Let us just accept that they are all superb.


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Old 06-01-2011, 10:55 AM   #13
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When I was watching I kind of took it as he made up the mermaid's name on the spot to make her seem more human to those just treating her like an animal, but I can't remember that scene too precisely.
That's what I thought as well. It's pretty clear actually, I mean, Syrena... siren... mermaid... he just thought up a 'mermaidy' name.

That said, I found the whole film pretty disappointing. Way too much visual noise, not enough story, flat characters.

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Old 06-01-2011, 11:44 PM   #14
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That's what I thought as well. It's pretty clear actually, I mean, Syrena... siren... mermaid... he just thought up a 'mermaidy' name.
But she doesn't contradict him or anyone else when they refer to her by that name. So either that is her real name or for some unexplained reason she just lets people call her a name that some guy made up at random without protestation, which wouldn't really speak much to her character. I'm sure any feminist could write pages and pages about the implications of a movie where a bunch of strange men hold a naked woman captive and make up a name for her (in a way effectively deciding who she is) without her permission or having her opinion or feelings on the matter considered in any way. Not to mention the fact that she comes from a race that normally seduces men in order to kill them and eat them. Heck, you could interpret this as being one of the most anti-woman movies of all time. (I'm not saying I really think that, it's just one way of looking at it. I'm kinda rambling.)

Anyway, here's what I think probably happened: there was a scene or clip where she tells him her name, and for some reason the editor didn't think that was important enough to leave in the movie, so it got cut, but they forgot the scene where he tells everyone her name was in the movie.


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Old 06-02-2011, 12:01 AM   #15
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The rituals required for the fountain to work, such as the chalices and mermaid tear, are just like the meaningless objects required in MI to take up time before advancing to the next section of the game.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:46 AM   #16
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The rituals required for the fountain to work, such as the chalices and mermaid tear, are just like the meaningless objects required in MI to take up time before advancing to the next section of the game.
To what, specifically are you referring? Because I can't think of any puzzles in the Monkey Island games that just plain don't make sense with the amount of explanation given in the game.


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