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Old 01-01-2013, 10:21 PM   #1
The Lord of Chaos
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Leave canon out of video games...

You don't need it. Revan and the Exile should have been long dead and whatever happened in KotOR and TSL should have remained a mystery. A lot of historical information was destroyed, so no one would have necessarily known whether Revan and the Exile were men, women, heroes or villains in their time. I understand that you need to use canon in books, but not video games. Kind of defeats the purpose of role-playing games in the first place. And yes, I have a pro-dark side bias.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:42 AM   #2
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You know, I kind of agree with that. However, I would admonish that if you are going to have something even vaguely related taking place sometime later, there does need to be at least SOME indication what happened thereafter and at least an explanation to tie into...well, what exactly makes this relate to it and WHY.

It could have been that their search was in vain and they died off never having found what they were looking for. What, then would be the basis for each? And if they are of NO relation to each other, then could you explain to me what purpose the games served in the first place?

Mind you I am not trying to beat you down, but I want answers. How would it work?

Yes I acknowledge your point and in fact I am intrigued by it, hence I am engaging you on it.


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Old 01-02-2013, 02:45 AM   #3
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Um... Revan was created by BioWare in Knights of the Old Republic and the Exile by Obsidian in Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords... the canon you speak of was created in video games and is being used by BioWare to add back-story to a new generation of characters that you create and guide through another important part of Star Wars history.

If you don't want canon in Star Wars video games then all you're really left with is stuff like LEGO Star Wars, cause the rest of it is canon to the Expanded Universe from the very beginning.

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Old 01-02-2013, 03:33 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Darth Avlectus View Post
You know, I kind of agree with that. However, I would admonish that if you are going to have something even vaguely related taking place sometime later, there does need to be at least SOME indication what happened thereafter and at least an explanation to tie into...well, what exactly makes this relate to it and WHY.

It could have been that their search was in vain and they died off never having found what they were looking for. What, then would be the basis for each? And if they are of NO relation to each other, then could you explain to me what purpose the games served in the first place?

Mind you I am not trying to beat you down, but I want answers. How would it work?

Yes I acknowledge your point and in fact I am intrigued by it, hence I am engaging you on it.
Okay here's what I would have done. Revan travels to the unknown regions and starts assassinating members of the dark council of the Sith, destabilising their leadership.

The Exile eventually joins Revan and helps him accomplish this. The assassinations plunges the Sith empire into a civil war, delaying the emperors plans to attack the Republic.

Only it is later revealed later that the dark council were planning to betray the emperor, so he uses the evidence to unite enough clans to crush the groups that tried to overthrow him.

Scourge takes the credit for the assassination of the dark council members, to get closer to the emperor, knowing full well he didn't do a damn thing. With the resistance destroyed, Revan and the Exile remain in hiding, unable to stop the emperors remaining forces on their own, much like Yoda and Obi-Wan hid from the empire because two veteran Jedi Knights are no match for them.

They die of old age, while the emperors forces gradually rebuild and do not surface for many years later to invade the Republic...

All they had to do in the MMO is mention that Revan and the Exile delayed the Sith invasion by assassinating key members of the dark council which plunged them into a civil war. No mention of their gender, alignment in the video games, no physical appearances or any of that.

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Originally Posted by Lynk Former View Post
Um... Revan was created by BioWare in Knights of the Old Republic and the Exile by Obsidian in Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords... the canon you speak of was created in video games and is being used by BioWare to add back-story to a new generation of characters that you create and guide through another important part of Star Wars history.

If you don't want canon in Star Wars video games then all you're really left with is stuff like LEGO Star Wars, cause the rest of it is canon to the Expanded Universe from the very beginning.
I understand that it's BioWares' property and they can do whatever they want with it, but why make Knights of the Old Republic a role-playing game in the first place if the the dark side/female/alternate appearances Revan could have didn't count for jack ****?

TSL proved that you don't need canon to make great plots. As a matter of fact, they could have cut out the Bastila and Carth cameos, as Bastila could have been killed in KotOR and Carth didn't have to be made an admiral. The only reason why Obsidian did that is for KotOR fan nostalgia.

The Revan in the MMO sure as hell wasn't MY Revan. My Revan was a Sith Lord, he didn't save the Republic, and he sure as hell looked and sounded different to the guy in the game. There are clever ways to use former protagonists in a game without ruining the players image of them. Too bad BioWare aren't talented enough writers to pull it off.

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Old 01-02-2013, 03:52 AM   #5
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YOUR Revan still exists in your playthrough of the game. If BioWare hadn't made an RPG to begin with then YOUR Revan and any other version people had created would not have existed at all.

And if the Revan shown in SWTOR isn't to your liking, do what many do and simply disregard it as their own personal canon. For example, there are many people who don't think that anything outside of what is shown in the six currently released Star Wars movies is canon. ALL expanded universe stuff to them simply doesn't exist.

Others pick and choose what makes sense and what doesn't.

In terms of video games, this has always been one of the weaknesses with video games, but it's not so much the writing that's to blame as it is the time and money it takes to create video games. I've heard many developers say they wish they could explore every door they open up when allowing a player to choose their own path over multiple games, but it's just not possible.

Of course, if you really want to explore what happens to your particular Revan, there's an awesome way of doing it... writing fan fiction

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Old 01-02-2013, 04:06 AM   #6
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I disagree. TSL did just fine. DS Revan's Sith army turn on each other and get chewed up and spat out by the Star Forge, so either way Obsidian made way for their story. Hell, if anything, Obsidian could have done without the Bastila and Carth cameos. Bastila could have been killed in KotOR and even if she wasn't, she's either in hiding or off searching for Revan. The player doesn't need to know that, though.

There was no need to make Carth an admiral either, but since he couldn't die if Revan is light side, then that's okay. I think the player should have had a say on whether Bastila lived or died before seeing her cameo and if the player decides she's alive, only has a small, limited role.

She had no relevance to the plot and neither did anything else Revan did in the game apart from whether he/she chose the light or dark side. What Obsidian did with TSL was rather brilliant.

They added more detail and content to the original KotOR, but made sure that it was ambiguous enough that it did nothing to destabilise what had already happened (or had the potential to happen). It literally gave you the choice of whether your character saved the galaxy or tried to destroy it and even let you choose which gender Revan was.

They could have made a KotOR III that done this for both Revan and the Exile, with any character that could have been killed only playing an ambiguous cameo part. You just create a story that makes it unimportant for the player to know certain things about certain planets and people. Really not hard.

Revan and the Exile could've been war leaders who you never physically see or hear in the game, but receive orders from, from people who are in direct contact with them. Problem solved.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:22 AM   #7
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My Exile would not be a war leader... End of story, SHE had her fill of leading soldiers into battle at Malachor V. Leading troops into battle would have violated all my motivations for playing her the way I did in TSL. So your problem solve violates everything about my Exile.

I don't see the big deal. I thought TOR did a very good job with the way it handled TOR and TSL. There was enough there to show the connection without beating you over the head with it. I do hate one of the Jedi Knight Companions and I really like the way they handled Revan. They made him what he really was, a flawed Jedi, instead what fans have turned him into the star war jesus. Personally to me the Exile was the better character then and now.


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Old 01-02-2013, 11:35 AM   #8
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Hahaha, okay not a war leader then, but doing something else to help out Revan.

Look, if my bias wasn't obvious already, then it will be now. I wanted Obsidian to make Knights of the Old Republic III, to finish off the True Sith story. That will never happen now, thanks to the Revan novel and the MMO and personally I think it sucks the way it all turned out.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:54 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lord of Chaos View Post
Look, if my bias wasn't obvious already, then it will be now. I wanted Obsidian to make Knights of the Old Republic III, to finish off the True Sith story. That will never happen now, thanks to the Revan novel and the MMO and personally I think it sucks the way it all turned out.
It is not TOR or the novel's fault, put the fault there is not KotOR III where it belongs. Lucas Arts did not want to make KotOR III, if they did it would have been made long before TOR or the Novel.

I did not want to play TOR, but Lynk talked me into it, and I am very happy he did.


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Old 01-02-2013, 09:07 PM   #10
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Yeah but it would have been made by BioWare and/or LucasArts and would have been underwhelming, anyway. Bio started KotOR but Avellone took it and made it into something more ambiguous, mature and complex.

I have seen TOR scenes with Revan, the dialogue is unimaginative and even cringe worthy. Avellone came up with the "True Sith, Revan never truly fell" concept and that just got completely shafted for "Revan did fall, became a pawn of the emperor, was nothing more than another evil Sith Lord" instead. Typical black and white BioWare. I hate how LucasArts treated Obsidian. Eight month deadline, rejected their cut content patch proposal and ignored them when they were begging to do KotOR III.

Anyway, like I said, I do admit I have a huge dark side bias. What can I say, many of the dark side options in the KotOR games were hysterical. I don't care if novels, comics and what not go by canon, I just don't like some video game telling me my Revan and Exile were goody two shoes and they did NOT look and sound as they did when I played as them.

Uh, no they weren't, at least not in my original playthroughs. That was the beauty of those games. You could be a villain and actually win. But canon comes in and says, "Nope, impossible." Well **** you canon. Let me continue my non-canon dark side story thanks. TSL let you choose, oh yeah but that's right, Obsidian have much better writers.

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Old 01-02-2013, 11:46 PM   #11
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They made him what he really was, a flawed Jedi, instead what fans have turned him into [which is] the star wars jesus.
Agree.


It's LucasArts's character, Bioware's story. Not yours.
You can't change it, man. Move on with your life.

Edited for correcetness.

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Old 01-02-2013, 11:55 PM   #12
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Yeah, but the Exile wasn't their character and they had no right to just wipe TSL away, which they did. They completely ignored the concept Obsidian introduced of Revan leaving the Republic's infrastructure intact and waging a war of conversion, not destruction. LameoWare just came in and said, "Nah, the emperor turned Revan to the dark side and that's it. Revan was just another simple villain." Crap writing.

And it was BioWares' fault in the first place for the Revan hype. They made Revan out to be a legend in KotOR (the most powerful force user of his/her time) but never justified it. Obsidian gave that substance, but instead Bio just decided to make Revan and the Exile into pussies to get them out of the way for their MMO money grab.

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Old 01-03-2013, 12:13 AM   #13
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They made Revan out to be a legend in KotOR (the most powerful force user of his/her time)
You sure it wasn't you who did that?

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...but instead Bio just decided to make Revan and the Exile into pussies to get them out of the way for their MMO money grab.
Yep, they sure did.


So,.. how long is this going to go on?
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:18 AM   #14
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I'm done. I just hope that Obsidian gets to make another KotOR game and that they get to do whatever they want with it, including ignoring the Revan novel and the MMO if they want. Canon is super lame.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:38 AM   #15
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You're all getting it wrong, they're ALL characters owned by LucasFilm Ltd. and THEY can do whatever the hell they want to them. And in this case, they allowed BioWare to write them into The Old Republic.

As I said before, if this isn't to your liking, adjust your PERSONAL CANON to block all of this out and it would never have happened in the first place. After all, none of this actually happened, it's ALL fiction. You are allowed to pick and choose what you think is relevant and what you think isn't.

I mean, this is why fanfic writers exist, so they can dip into their own pool of personal canon.

And to be blunt, what you're asking them to do makes absolutely no sense. As stupid as their decisions may be, the owners of the properties gave them the right to do what they wanted to it. End of story. They were commissioned to make a game and they decided to use these characters regardless of whether they created them or not because LucasFilm/LucasArts allowed it. And they are the masters of the Star Wars universe as far as we're concerned. They have all the right to do what they want, even if someone doesn't agree... besides, how are they going to please every single person on the planet? They're trying to make a game, not try to conform to the wishes of every little individual, that's impossible.

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Old 01-03-2013, 06:51 AM   #16
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Yeah, yeah, I know all that. I'm just disappointed at the lack of creativity. Would it have been too much to ask to slip in a clever bit where the player could select Revan's gender and alignment in the MMO? Revan could have kept the mask on the entire time (there was a valid reason for light side Revan to wear it, too). Wouldn't have been too hard to change one or two lines (you've played TSL, right? Something like that) depending on alignment and just get a voice actor for the female Revan.

I mean, I was just reading how there was a valid reason light side Revan could have been wearing a mask, too. Apparently Revan got the mask off the dead body of a random Mandalorian, after coming too late to prevent the massacre of Cathar. That random Mandalorian apparently was someone who had been executed by the other Mandalorians because she refused to participate in the massacre and Revan took up the mask in her honour. So light side Revan could have worn the mask as a symbol of courage. The Exile could have worn Nihilus' mask, as a symbol of the connection between the two of them, a theory proposed by this man years ago: http://www.lucasforu...090&postcount=1

That would have solved the appearance problem. You are absolutely correct about LucasArts, they can do whatever they want with Star Wars. All I'm saying is, there were ways around not having to use canon in the games, it feels like BioWare just tied up the crap about Revan and the Exile as an afterthought to make way for their MMO, which they were entitled to do, but it sucks.

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Old 01-03-2013, 07:17 AM   #17
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The ideas you're presenting aren't new and have been repeated by a large number of people (including myself in the past). The PROBLEM is that people think it's just a simple flip of a switch to put all of this stuff into the game and make it work, as if it's just that easy.

As I've said before, they don't have unlimited time and unlimited money to do this, they had to make the hard decisions that meant that certain things that were personalised in peoples stories had to be set in concrete.

But in any case, your pain is my pleasure since I've been enjoying the hell out of this game They've sacrificed your enjoyment to make my enjoyment of this game so much more than it would've been.

XD

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Old 01-03-2013, 07:19 AM   #18
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Oh bullcrap, Obsidian did it in what, less than a year? KotOR III wouldn't have been any different. People overestimate how much variation there needed to be. Anyway, glad you're enjoying the game. And I mean it, too.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:54 AM   #19
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Another possibility was that Obsidian was told to avoid tampering with the events of the first game by LucasFilm as much as possible. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened with expanded universe stuff.

With SWTOR, it would've been the opposite because SWTOR was seen as a good money making opportunity and the events of KotOR I and II would've been all up for grabs to use however they wanted to make that money.

People underestimate how complicated making a video game, especially one that involves licensing rights, actually is

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Old 01-03-2013, 08:01 AM   #20
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Yeah who knows what went on behind the scenes. If anything, I'm not a Revan fanboy who was disappointed that he basically failed to stop the emperor and I could even have got past the whole canon thing. I just think the kept alive as a prisoner for 300 years thing idea was stupid, that sounds like catering more to fanboys rather than just letting him die. But hey, it's Star Wars, I guess Sidious could have lived on forever if Vader didn't throw him down that hole and this emperor in the TOR is similar in epic long live living power.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:57 PM   #21
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I do think this thread needs a SPOILER WARNING for warning the less knowledgeable.



MY Revan was a jedi guardian, light-neutral. Mullet hair, DID kill Bendak Starkiller, used two blades and not one.

MY exile was a female Jedi Weaponsmaster, Light sided, red-brown skinned asian looking (would have preferred the bushy blonde haired head but that one was Nistotsa's default head). Too modest about her looks, did not willingly run around in her underwear either, and asked Mira to dance for Vogga instead. Visas took Nihilus' mask. Three blades, single regular blue, and pair of silver and orange. Actually some other blades too, but still. Juyo user.


What does this matter? Nothing. I don't like it but I accept it.


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Okay here's what I would have done. Revan travels to the unknown regions and starts assassinating members of the dark council of the Sith, destabilising their leadership.

The Exile eventually joins Revan and helps him accomplish this. The assassinations plunges the Sith empire into a civil war, delaying the emperors plans to attack the Republic.

Only it is later revealed later that the dark council were planning to betray the emperor, so he uses the evidence to unite enough clans to crush the groups that tried to overthrow him.

Scourge takes the credit for the assassination of the dark council members, to get closer to the emperor, knowing full well he didn't do a damn thing. With the resistance destroyed, Revan and the Exile remain in hiding, unable to stop the emperors remaining forces on their own, much like Yoda and Obi-Wan hid from the empire because two veteran Jedi Knights are no match for them.
OK. Not a bad attempt if I do say so myself...HOWEVER:

Then what would have been the catalyst for his realization of just how terrible Emperor Vitiate was?

He would also not have had reason, and likely not been given the means (age immortality through sith alchemy) to one day interfere on behalf of the annonymous Jedi Knight's storyline.

There also would be no "action" to "commend" with such a "reward".

Further more I see nothing to "give the Emperor pause" like a confrontation where he comes to the realization that he could have been killed.

As he had already been planning to invade for the sake of his ritual, as soon as order had been restored and the new council was reliable (probably a few decades), there would have been nothing to slow down or stop the Emperor from proceeding, much earlier than SWTOR took place. The Republic would still be recovering by that point as well.
The anonymous Jedi Knight apparently is supposed to be the only one who could stop him and if the galaxy were to be consumed before that could take place...everyone would be SOL.

The basic point of the novel was that the emperor was delayed from doing something that otherwise might have consumed the entire galaxy. The only one apparently who could stop Vitiate is that annonymous Jedi Knight in the future.

Quote:
They die of old age, while the emperors forces gradually rebuild and do not surface for many years later to invade the Republic...

All they had to do in the MMO is mention that Revan and the Exile delayed the Sith invasion by assassinating key members of the dark council which plunged them into a civil war. No mention of their gender, alignment in the video games, no physical appearances or any of that.
Maybe, but the glaring hole your story leaves has me skeptical Emperor Vitiate would have just sat back after he had essentially cleaned house and rebuilt his empire to a point of reliability.



Quote:
I understand that it's BioWares' property and they can do whatever they want with it, but why make Knights of the Old Republic a role-playing game in the first place if the the dark side/female/alternate appearances Revan could have didn't count for jack ****?

TSL proved that you don't need canon to make great plots. As a matter of fact, they could have cut out the Bastila and Carth cameos, as Bastila could have been killed in KotOR and Carth didn't have to be made an admiral. The only reason why Obsidian did that is for KotOR fan nostalgia.

The Revan in the MMO sure as hell wasn't MY Revan. My Revan was a Sith Lord, he didn't save the Republic, and he sure as hell looked and sounded different to the guy in the game. There are clever ways to use former protagonists in a game without ruining the players image of them. Too bad BioWare aren't talented enough writers to pull it off.
Well, someone else would have needed to take the places of Revan and the Exile. Your story wasn't bad but I am still skeptical.


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Old 01-03-2013, 11:12 PM   #22
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Then what would have been the catalyst for his realization of just how terrible Emperor Vitiate was?
Winning the civil war amongst the Sith empire and having the ability to consume worlds like Nihilus could, only worse. Only people could get close enough to him to challenge him without instantly being harmed, because he isn't some wound in the force.

Anyway, I agree, my story is flawed. That is not the story I would have gone for, though. I would've gone with KotOR III. Revan and the Exile wouldn't have failed at all. The civil war would've weakened the Sith to the point where a weakened Jedi, Republic and Mandalorian clans could challenge them.

The player would travel across four worlds searching for whatever it was that lead Revan and Malak to the discovery of the true Sith empire in the first place. He/she would eventually travel to the unknown regions and help Revan and the Exile defeat the true Sith.

This would not be done alone, of course. What was remaining of the Jedi, the Republic and the Mandalorians would have helped the PC, who would have been a former Padawan from the Jedi Civil War who "switched off the lightsaber" as Atton puts it but returns to fulfil his/her destiny of defeating the emperor. So much for the "great war that comes" as Kreia predicted. Yeah, 300 years later...

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Old 01-04-2013, 10:31 PM   #23
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But hey, it's Star Wars, I guess Sidious could have lived on forever if Vader didn't throw him down that hole and this emperor in the TOR is similar in epic long live living power.
Technically that did happen. Palpatine came back in a few clone bodies in the Dark Empire comics. He ended up being killed for good by Han Solo when the Emperor tried to possess Han's infant son as a last ditch effort after he ran out of clone bodies.



I came into the topic expecting a mature discussion of canon in general, per the topic title. Instead the topic has nothing to do with canon and is instead complaints specifically about Revan and the Exile's portrayal in TOR. No mention of any other canon. I was disappointed by that.

The One Sith plot was finished by TOR. The One Sith that Kreia referred to was the Sith Empire of TOR. Since the Sith Empire engaged the Republic in a 28 year Great Galactic War, a 10 year Cold War, and a newly budding Second Great Galactic War after, I'd say they're definitely a threat on the scale Kreia hinted at. A 28 year war, that's longer than the Galactic Civil War by a decade and a half, and longer than the Clone Wars by ten. It's a MASSIVE war, and from a very massive threat of a Sith Empire.

Giving Revan and the Exile canon gender/alignments is not some evil thing, but a necessity for storytelling. The KotOR games do not exist in a vacuum. They exist as part of a shared universe. For years after the KotORs(before the established gender/alignments were established), the EU had to refer VERY vaguely to events around that era. Even after that, Revan's face was NEVER shown since the face was still a choice within the Light Male spectrum, at least prior to TOR giving him a canon face finally. Giving Revan and the Exile canon genders and alignments made it easier to fit them into continuity and to more easily refer to them in other works.

And as a side note, EVERY SW game that gives a choice of alignment with diverging endings has gotten a Light ending. This goes back to the mid-90s with "Jedi Knight: Dark Forces 2", the first big game with diverging endings. Dark Side endings are so potentially galaxy changing that it's hard to have one of those without massively messing with all the continuity around it.

As much as you may hate it, the fact remains that KotOR+TSL+TOR are part of SW continuity. SW's EU is famous as one of the most internally consistent and cohesive expanded universe of any fictional expanded universe. Everything fits together and links with everything else. BioWare doesn't own Revan, nor does Obsidian own the Exile. Many a SW author has admitted they don't own their characters, that it's the price of working in a shared universe. Even KotOR was set in a pre-established era, set less than half a century after the comics that established the 5000-4000 BBY era.

I for one think that KotOR has been strengthened by what TOR did with Revan and his backstory. He was made into a flawed figure who made a few mistakes and has been paying the price for them ever since. As powerful as Revan was, the Emperor was even more powerful. It knocks Revan down a few pegs from his Mary Sue status he had before TOR. Revan even delayed the war with the One Sith by 300 years through a bit of a heroic sacrifice, ensuring the Republic was fully built back up to handle the enormous threat.

I love to imagine what that 300 years of captivity did for Revan. When he left the Republic, his son was an infant. Three hundred years later, his son is long dead and his only surviving descendant is the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, the most powerful Jedi facing the Emperor that Revan himself tried to stop so many centuries before. I wish the game had a quest/conversation/cutscene where you see the conversation Revan had with his great-great-great-great(etc.) granddaughter. The stories those two could share would surely bring tears to my soul.



Maybe you're just new to SW's EU. I've been in it since I became a SW fan with the prequels. I've read many a book. I'm used to new stories adding new facets to older stories, adding new layers to this deep and detailed universe. There's rarely anything I hostilely disagree with, the only thing coming to mind is what was done with Jacen Solo after the NJO(particularly in LotF). I just accept it as it happens because it's part of the story. Just because I don't like a story development doesn't mean it didn't "happen". I myself have been burned by a few of "The Clone Wars" retcons, but I accept them as part of the universe.

As others said, when it comes down to it, you could just pretend your Revan destroyed the galaxy and your Exile was a guy or whatever makes you feel better. It won't be the official story, but it's the best you can do given the situation. There's no way BioWare is going to go back and redo all of TOR to fit a much vaguer outcome of both KotOR games.

I do love SW, the EU, and canon/continuity, so I'm happy to discuss it with you. I particularly love how TOR created a new era out of nothing with a Republic at its prime with Jedi allies facing a Sith-ran Empire at its prime. It's like the best aspects of both movie trilogies.


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Old 01-04-2013, 10:44 PM   #24
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But it's complete horse**** that canon is a necessity for storytelling in the video games. I'm not talking about the novels or anything else, just the games. Look at what Obsidian did with TSL. Did you not like the story in that game?

Here's how I would have done KotOR III. Set two to three years after TSL...

A civil war breaks out between the Sith, caused by destabilisation of their leadership as a result of assassinations of key leaders. This gives what remains of the Jedi, the Republic and the Mandalorians a chance to defeat the Sith. The new PC was a Padawan from the Jedi Civil War who "switched off the lightsaber" but returns after his/her homeworld is attacked by the Sith. The PC travels across the galaxy, searching for whatever it was that lead Revan and Malak to the Sith in the first place. The PC finds the Sith and defeats the final boss. Revan and the Exile play a background role fighting the Sith. You never physically see them or hear them speak in the game, you only hear about what they're doing from other people who are in direct contact with them.

The end.

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Old 01-04-2013, 11:06 PM   #25
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Yeah, why do we need canon or any references at all? Why are these games even Star Wars to begin with? They should just be a new science fiction of space opera franchise totally separate from Star Wars to begin with!

You've made a number of these kinds of threads, I've noticed... and it's pretty obvious you have an agenda to tout TSL as king. It's nice that you think TSL is so great, but yeah... I don't really understand the purpose of your campaign.

I get that you don't like the fact that SWTOR exists, for a long time I was a KotOR III supporter too, but what's done is done. The Prequel Trilogy exists, the Sequel Trilogy is about to exist, and whether you like it or not, Star Wars: The Old Republic exists and at the time of its creation LucasArts wanted it to relate back to the previous video games made in the series.

As I stated before, personal canon and fan works are a good way to go about this whole thing... and you've certainly shown us what your personal canon is all about.

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Old 01-04-2013, 11:16 PM   #26
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Yeah, why do we need canon or any references at all? Why are these games even Star Wars to begin with? They should just be a new science fiction of space opera franchise totally separate from Star Wars to begin with!
Do you not read my posts? I've said numerous times, canon is fine, even good for novels, comics, cartoons, films, all that. There's just no need for it for games, though, especially role-playing games, and TSL proved that. That's why I like it the most. I'm not as disappointed as you think that TOR exists, I just don't think they had to use canon in the games and I'm not alone. There were ways around it and you know that. I totally understand what you're saying though, it's all good. LA can use canon on whatever they want and I can reject it if I want, so it's not a big deal.

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Old 01-04-2013, 11:21 PM   #27
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Do you not read my posts? I've said numerous times, canon is fine, even good for novels, comics, cartoons, films, all that. There's just no need for it for games, though, especially role-playing games, and TSL proved that. That's why I like it the most. I'm not as disappointed as you think that TOR exists, I just don't think they had to use canon in the games and I'm not alone. There were ways around it and you know that.
I was mocking you.

Again, personal canon.

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Old 01-04-2013, 11:25 PM   #28
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Nah, a new KotOR game by Obsidian would be ten times better than any of my personal canon haha.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:28 PM   #29
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If it happens, great, but at this point, it doesn't exist.

Also, in terms of canon... stuff is canon until it isn't. There are many examples of things in Star Wars that were once canon but aren't any longer because of something that was released afterward.

In the future, there is a possibility that SWTOR may be bumped off the canon list... hell, there's a possibility that The Knights of the Old Republic era could be bumped off entirely. We just won't know until it actually happens.

After all, the entire post-RotJ EU is being wiped out by the upcoming Sequel Trilogy and no one saw that coming until it was announced.

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Old 01-04-2013, 11:32 PM   #30
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True. Well, fingers crossed there will be a new single player Star Wars RPG in the future. I'm not even into video games, but I *loved* KotOR and TSL. Played them both about seven or eight times.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:47 PM   #31
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Well if you want videogames to ignore all canon, then KotOR shouldn't even be set in a specific point in the SW timeline. Why does Revan have to be human? Why can't the Exile be a Hutt? Why do Revan and the Exile have to even exist in the same verse as your KotOR3? That's why "personal canon" is a tricky and confusing thing to do.


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Old 01-04-2013, 11:51 PM   #32
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That's why "personal canon" is a tricky and confusing thing to do.
Not really, I can easily ignore the fact that the New Jedi Order series exists abd be perfectly fine with the rest of Star Wars EU... Personal canon is easy to maintain as long as you don't get down to the really fine points of nitpicking very specific things out of the middle of things.

If he doesn't like the turn that SWTOR has taken then all he really needs to do is say "for me, there is no SWTOR"...

On the other hand, writing your own fan fiction is where things get complicated.


In my mind, personal canon = omission of existing canon for your own purposes, fan fiction = creating your own canon to coexist or override official canon

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Old 01-04-2013, 11:57 PM   #33
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That's true, I could write a basic outline, elaborating on what I wrote on post 24, but that's about it. Dialogue, plausibility, party members, side content... I actually think adding new material would be hardest thing to do in a KotOR III plot set soon after TSL. You'd have to be careful not to mention little if any of the activities on planets that Revan and the Exile had an impact on in their game and so on. Anyway, I might have a go, post it on a fan fiction site and if you're interested in reading it, I'll provide a link to it.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:11 AM   #34
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Why does it have to be after TSL? That implies some sort of continuity, where events follow other events. As does the fact that Revan and the Exile even exist. You don't want canon/continuity, so don't have any of it. A standalone story with a Jedi Padawan going on missions might as well just be the Jedi Academy game that already exists.

Even the name "Knights of the Old Republic" implies some continuity, since it's definitely set before the original trilogy, during the time of the Old Republic. That might count as continuity too. Or maybe I'm overdoing your remark about not wanting any continuity at all.


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Old 01-05-2013, 12:17 AM   #35
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Yeah, you are. I *do* want continuity, I'm just saying that it doesn't have to follow canon. TSL didn't. You could make Revan light side and male if you wanted, but you weren't forced to.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:20 AM   #36
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By that logic, swtor technically doesn't follow canon either since Revan changes from how he/she was in KotOR and TSL.

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Old 01-05-2013, 12:25 AM   #37
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Yeah true, he looks different, sounds different and falls back to the dark side. I don't mind the canon look/voice, but not gender and alignment. My Revan fell back to the dark side back in KotOR.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:41 AM   #38
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And within the larger narrative, your Revan still is Dark Side in KotOR. But when Revan moved to the larger part of the SW universe, including sequels, a set story had to be put in line. If every story had a vague narrative that was only vaguely mentioned elsewhere, you'd barely have an expanded universe going on. SW's EU's strength is how consistent it is, where events are firm, happened, and have effects on everything else. Like I said in my very big post earlier, I like how Revan and the Exile's firm stories tied into the larger narrative created for TOR, giving us that massive big bad in the Sith Emperor.


Lynk, when you said you reject the NJO, does that also include the things after? Given that the books since then have relied on character developments within the NJO, it seems like it'd be hard to reject only the NJO and nothing else after. I don't care for where Jacen Solo went in LotF, but I accept it all as part of the larger narrative.

But then, I accept all of SW as part of a larger story, whether I like the smaller bits or not. I just treat it like real life. There are some things I don't like, but I can't just pretend they don't exist. I just accept them as part of the universe and move on to other aspects of the universe. SW's had some pretty damn dorky stuff, like the Holiday Special, but there are ways of using retcons to make them less insane and dorky. I guess I'm just very accepting and laid back about canon and continuity and works that I may dislike. I don't know, I'm babbling, stopping my post now. :P


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Old 01-05-2013, 12:45 AM   #39
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Yeah, I reject everything that happens after The Hand of Thrawn duology. Though, to be honest, I'm one of the people who only accepts what occurs in the movies (for better or worse) as the true canon and the only canon I really need to worry about.

At one point I was into EU, but not really any more. To me, none of EU really matters so it can be as convoluted as it wants to be.

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Old 01-05-2013, 01:12 AM   #40
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This is what I've got so far in my personal canon.

Introduction

It's two years after The Sith Lords. A civil war breaks out between the Sith, caused by destabilisation of their leadership as a result of assassinations of key leaders. This gives what remains of the Jedi, the Republic and the Mandalorians a chance to defeat the Sith. The new main character was a Padawan from the Jedi Civil War who "switched off the lightsaber" and is now being hunted by the Sith...

Part 1

Revan and the Exile were the ones responsible for the assassinations. The emperor, Lord Astaroth, doesn't know that and thinks the Sith Lord Darth Ra, was responsible. Ra took the credit for it to get closer to Astaroth. She showed him proof that the dark council were planning to overthrow him.

Little does Astaroth know, though, that Ra wants to become the new emperor herself. She had a vision of a Jedi Knight defeating the emperor. She tells Astaroth about her vision and requests to hunt down the Jedi Knight, as there is possibly a link between them. Astaroth agrees to this and sends a group of assassins.

Ra kills the assassins and finds the player, warning the player about the Sith threat. Ra shows the player the bodies as proof and offers to train the player in the ways of the force again. Ra, like Kreia, is hiding her real identity. She says that the Sith may be hunting you because they believe you to be of importance, but she pretends not to know what that importance is.

The player accepts Ra's offer for training. Astaroth senses Ra's betrayal and so throughout the game assassins are hunting Ra and the player. Ra won't take you straight to the unknown regions because a) you're not ready to face Astaroth; and b) it would blow her cover.

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