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Old 07-25-2003, 09:33 PM   #1
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Exclamation Banned for poor english skills?

Fellow forumites and forum leaders, welcome.

A matter has been brought to my attention involving another member and the moderation team at Monkey Island. I'm not involved in this, except to help a friend who is in hot water and asked for my help. I seek therefore to open up a dialogue on this matter so that Lucasforum's policies can be made clear to all involved.

Now then. RayJones is a member whom I've come to know over the past few months. He is from Germany, and his english can be somewhat...creative at times. Add to this his sense of humor, and frankly sometimes his posts need to be read a couple of times in order to see what he's saying. His posting style has brought him under fire, and the dread 'spam cannon' has been leveled. I am told privately that he is in danger of being banned. Here is a thread in which we see him getting in trouble. http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...hreadid=106066

Despite the unique character of his posts, Ray is a deep thinker who often has interesting thoughts to contribute if the other members take the time to understand him. He's been involved in some rather serious philosophy in more than one thread of mine. Yes, he's zany, he's goofy...but he does contribute meaningfully when others take the time to engage him. This link will take one to such a thread, which I hold as evidence of Ray's deeper thinking behind the oddness: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...hreadid=105981

So, my concern is this: should Ray be banned because his difficulty with the language gets in the way? His posts look spammy at first glance, I admit...but I have found that he's actually trying (sometimes hard) to communicate his ideas behind the awkward words. Does Lucasforums have any policies that cover this situation, or is there precedent?

I really would hate for my buddy to be banned because he's misunderstood. Thank you for your time and thoughts on this matter.


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Old 07-25-2003, 10:23 PM   #2
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Hey there ZR, good to see you!

I frankly would like to give a person the benefit of the doubt, if they are indeed having difficulty with english for whatever reason.

However, somehow it must be made clear to that person that they will just have to work extra hard to "behave sensibly." We al have to learn to adapt to our environment.

Now that said, if its really a problem that he's trying hard to work out, perhaps a little leniency on him couldn't hurt.

The only problem is that others might see his behavior and think its a green light to do whatever they want... best to avoid that.

My 2 cents...

Should he be banned? I think a few carefully worded warnings should come before that...


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Old 07-25-2003, 10:33 PM   #3
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Both Gabez and I have sent him warnings. As I said in (a small part of) my warning to Ray:

"We at Lucasforums are a diverse community open to all ages and nationalities. We also understand that English is not your primary language. However, that's no excuse to write barely coherant thoughts and frequently use one line paragraphs."

I'm not moving from that. Also, I'm sorry, but that thread in the Swamp does nothing to change how I feel. Actually, it bolsters it because I still have no goddamn clue what he's trying to say. And it's in the Swamp.

Honestly, you're not standing on that solid of ground either considering you wanted to start a revolt against the moderation team.


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Old 07-25-2003, 10:52 PM   #4
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Cool Guy Buh?

Hmm. I'm going to have to ask you to back up that particular allegation with links to corroborative evidence. Otherwise, the remark has little standing of its own, much less a place in a serious but friendly feedback thread such as this.



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Old 07-25-2003, 11:35 PM   #5
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http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...hreadid=102542

Was this not a thread intended to start an anti-mod revolution before you edited it? If not, correct me, as we did get a tip from a poster that a resistance was in the works. If it's just a coincidence, tell me, although that'd seem bizzare considering some of the replies that followed.


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Old 07-26-2003, 12:04 AM   #6
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Quote:
We also understand that English is not your primary language. However, that's no excuse to write barely coherant thoughts and frequently use one line paragraphs
you make it sound like he is speaking poor english on purpose.

i'm sorry, but it seems a little intolerant to me. I'm not trying to tell you how to run your board, but perhaps a little patience would be in order.
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Old 07-26-2003, 12:16 AM   #7
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Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I know that if he slows down, reads through his post and makes sure it actually makes a shred of sense both gramatically and coherantly then it wouldn't matter whether he was primarily English or not.

It's also just painful to read his posts. I'm pretty sure that his primary language of German doesn't seperate connected thoughts and sentences by " .. " or by making it a whole new paragraph, and it certainly isn't like that in English.

I'm saying he can do much better. Sorry if that seems intolerant, but outside of the Star Wars forums there are actually standards and expectations of intelligence.


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Old 07-26-2003, 03:28 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by mercatfat
but outside of the Star Wars forums there are actually standards and expectations of intelligence.
Thats a lie! We live in America. We should no there are no standards.

I say unban him, and jsut tell him to make it atleast 30% more decent. My psots usually ahve mispellings, because I don't really look at what I'm typing. As long as you can read what I'm trying to say, your okay.


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Old 07-26-2003, 03:31 AM   #9
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He isn't banned, just warned.


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Old 07-26-2003, 03:33 AM   #10
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i say let the guy have another chance, dont ban him because his english is not perfect, who here does have perfect english? i think he should work on it some to make it more understandable but dont ban him for it
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Old 07-26-2003, 03:46 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Cheat
i say let the guy have another chance, dont ban him because his english is not perfect, who here does have perfect english? i think he should work on it some to make it more understandable but dont ban him for it
I don't think I've ever seen Merc mispell something, so, Merc has perfect English.


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Old 07-26-2003, 08:22 AM   #12
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Hmmm I've seen Ray around and he's an aright guy so I don't really know what the fuss is all about. I've come accross many people who don't speak english well because it may be their second language or something similar. I actually think Ray is furny hehehe

I have a person on my forum who speaks... and i'll say it bluntly, terrible english. Sometimes everyone in the forum will have to read his posts 20 times over just to get the jist of it, but most of the time he's okay. To make things worse he's also new to most things on the internet and has been asking me a lot of questions about this and that. Dealing with him I've developed a lot of patience and despite what seems to be him spamming I've actually re-read some of his older posts and realised, after getting used to his version of english, that he actually did have something to say.

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Old 07-26-2003, 09:25 AM   #13
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Cool Guy Oh, for Pete's sake...

Mercatfat: The 'inflammatory' introduction that I edited out was an invitation for forum members to copy-paste the 'Declaration of Interdependence' into an e-mail and send it to their respective national leaders. Neil replied with (and I quote) 'Closed ' but left the thread open, which I took as a suggestion that perhaps my original idea was too...trouble making. When I re-read what I'd posted the day before, I too felt that the e-mail suggestion should be taken out and I did so.

You also seem to have missed the fact that I went out my way to state twice in that thread that 'vive la resistance' was a philosophy that I wasn't applying to the Lucasforums moderation team. Assuptions and a misunderstanding of my intentions...I dismiss your allegation.

My activism in the Harbor consisted entirely of showing the members that they could discuss moderation issues in the MI feedback forum of their own initiative. There was a spam-allowed policy posted, but threads were being closed with little explanation, and I felt that better communication was called for. That happened, which I appreciate. I don't seem to be too popular there, though, which is why I simply no longer visit. *Sigh.*

Kurgan: Hi! I didn't mean to ignore you; I just had my hands full, so to speak. It's been awhile, eh? Seen Wizzywig at all?

Anyway. See how easy it is for me to be misunderstood with my reasonably intelligent english? Imagine how much more so it would be in a foreign language. Please don't ban Ray...at least not from Lucasforums in the greater sense! There are other forums that Ray visits where his posting style doesn't seem to bother others at all.


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Old 07-26-2003, 09:37 AM   #14
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English not being perfect is one thing, but posts making absolutely no sense or with no relevant content are quite another. I find many of Ray's posts absolutely unintelligible, having posts like that in a thread along with the inevitable "uh?" and "I dont understand a word you just said" posts, isnt good.

Ray isnt banned, just warned, theres nothing wrong with this. All he has to do is take some time and care over his posts and ensure that they make sense and are relevant.

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Old 07-26-2003, 11:15 AM   #15
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Hey my posts don't make any sense... how come I get off the hook? XD

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Old 07-26-2003, 12:43 PM   #16
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Why is it that so many people feel it necessary to add their two completely worthless and generally ignorant cents to each and every thread in Help & Feedback?

Anyway, I'll just say that RayJones was asked a while back on the mojo forums to talk proper', so it's not like it's the first time he's been "warned".
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Old 07-26-2003, 02:56 PM   #17
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As long as freedom of speech is still allowed on the boards I see no reason why people shouldn't post thier opinions on a subject wherever and whenever they wish.

Forum:
1 a : the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business
b: a public meeting place for open discussion
c: a medium of open discussion or expression of ideas

Banning is a harsh sentence for someone who has chosen to adopt a singular writing style. (One has to wonder how e.e. cummings or Dr. Suess would fare posting on the LF networks... )
Especially for someone writing in a language not native to him.

I like to believe I have a fairly well-developed command of the written English language, but even I have occasional lapses of spelling and grammar. Occasionally it's strictly intentional, like

... when Ahm voicin' a character ta' make me a funneh...

And occasionally it's not.

Lots of people bend, and even sometimes totally disregard the stardard "accepted" rules of English grammar and punctuation when online.

Personally, I have had no issues with Ray's posts,.. and I actually prefer reading one of his posts to the occasional "l337"-speakers that I come across online. I do not believe his posts are all gibberish. There is always a message to them.


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Old 07-26-2003, 03:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lynk Former
Hey my posts don't make any sense... how come I get off the hook? XD
Because, your from RSN, and we forgive you.


I could usually read some of Rau's posts. There were ponly a few I couldn't read.


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Old 07-27-2003, 11:50 PM   #19
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Ja, das ist der ubersche*st!

*(Shrugs.)* Well, that defines the extent of my german.

I appreciate the irony of Ray's post, and am suprised to learn that my name in german is still 'Zoom Rabbit.' I once sent an unhappy PM to someone in french to prove the same point. Of course, in my case I probably misspelled and used words confusedly even more badly than Ray does on his *drunk days,* which was my point. It ain't easy to actually face the challenge of saying something intelligent in one's second language. A working vocabulary is hard-earned, and in the early stages of fluency...well, there really isn't a whole lot one can say correctly. One is tempted to restrict what one says into simpler terms, often just barely understanding what the others are saying around you in the first place and being afraid of responding to them incorrectly.

One's early posts might not seem to have much to say at all. Or even be on the goofy side. Sound like someone we know?

Is he spamming, or is he contributing to the conversation as best he can? Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm quite sure that he'll try as hard as he can to clean up his posting style for you guys at MI--that's his nature. Just show him a little more patience, that's all. With the mind that I've seen working behind the awkward words, when his vocabulary and understanding of idoms improves, he'll probably be one of the more deep-thinking and philosophical members you have! Just the thing to improve the quality of the posting in the Harbor, which unless I'm mistaken, is a goal that you guys have set for yourselves over there.

Fighting = no one wins.

Working together = everyone wins.

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Old 07-28-2003, 08:22 AM   #20
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Re: Tongue piercing

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoom Rabbit

Working together = everyone wins.
Very true...


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Old 07-28-2003, 09:16 AM   #21
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Ray should not be banned. It is CLEARLY and WIDELY known that he has trouble with his english. It would be different if he was someone we were not familiar with and we knew was doing it ON PURPOSE.

I think that this is simply blown way out of proportion.



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Old 07-28-2003, 10:52 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by mercatfat
If it makes you feel better, here's some answers that go to your questions in no particular order:

We felt like it
I have no clue
I don't care enough to find out
Maybe
This is another example of a nonSPAM, coherent and senseful reply to a request for help in this thread.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...hreadid=106706

This is really how it should be done, and the best thing is the prefetc spleling.

GO AHEAD LIKE THIS MERC..!!

*burns flag "Shut up."*





..


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Old 07-28-2003, 11:35 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by STTCT
Ray should not be banned. It is CLEARLY and WIDELY known that he has trouble with his english. It would be different if he was someone we were not familiar with and we knew was doing it ON PURPOSE.

I think that this is simply blown way out of proportion.

Very, very true. I think we've now conclusively proved that the vast majority of people SUPPORT Ray, and that it's just a rather misguided view on what should and shouldn't be subject to moderation by the minority of moderators.

Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones
This is another example of a nonSPAM, coherent and senseful reply to a request for help in this thread.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...hreadid=106706

This is really how it should be done, and the best thing is the prefetc spleling.

GO AHEAD LIKE THIS MERC..!!

*burns flag "Shut up."*





..
Ray, maybe it would be a good idea to avoid stirring up feelings further on this one. Most of us know that the guys in question were in the wrong, but let's avoid any further bad feeling......

.....Just sit back and be smug in the fact that the majority of users and moderators support YOU.

I do wish Mercatfat and Remio (and indeed anyone else who has issues with Rays English) would come forward and admit they could have handled things better.....but I've said my piece (many many times...zzzz), so I'll leave it at that.

One thing Mercatfat and Remio can answer for us:-

Now that it has been proved that most people DO NOT have a problem with Ray - can he now post in the Monkey Island Forums without fear of being heckled, harrassed, bothered....or BANNED?


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Old 07-28-2003, 12:11 PM   #24
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That's right, Roy. Lets keep things calm.. I actually reread this post of merc .. and i think it had no bad intention. Nothing to get upset about...

So things are said. this thread has fulfilled its task.

*leans back, smiling*

i am ful of peace and harmony ..

It's now on to the MI mods to anwer RoyTordes' question:

Quote:

Now that it has been proved that most people DO NOT have a problem with Ray - can he now post in the Monkey Island Forums without fear of being heckled, harrassed, bothered....or BANNED?


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Old 07-28-2003, 02:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
I do wish Mercatfat and Remio (and indeed anyone else who has issues with Rays English) would come forward and admit they could have handled things better.....but I've said my piece (many many times...zzzz), so I'll leave it at that.
Leave it at that. It was "handled" just fine.

Quote:
Now that it has been proved that most people DO NOT have a problem with Ray - can he now post in the Monkey Island Forums without fear of being heckled, harrassed, bothered....or BANNED?
He hasn't been "heckled, harrassed, bothered....or BANNED", nor will he if he cleans up his language.


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Old 07-28-2003, 02:07 PM   #26
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No it wasn't "handled" just fine at all - I read the message to Ray and I found it highly distasteful - I tell you what - we'll post this message and let every else decide eh?


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Old 07-28-2003, 02:57 PM   #27
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Originally posted by RemiO
He hasn't been "heckled, harrassed, bothered....or BANNED", nor will he if he cleans up his language.
So are you threatening him? That's sure what it sounds like to me.



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Old 07-28-2003, 03:24 PM   #28
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You keep telling yourself that, princess.


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Old 07-28-2003, 03:30 PM   #29
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I post on a russian forum every now and again, except it's all in russian so I have to use a translator-page to navigate it, and I post in english and they all understand. I'm always worried that they'll think I'm obnoxious for posting on a russian forum without actually knowing russian, but they're all nice people and don't seem to mind.
I have no idea what this actually contributes to the 'discussion', but it doesn't seem to matter much on this thread. But I do go to great effort in navigating their forums through a translator page (sort of like babelfish, but I use something else because babelfish doesn't work. the translator doesn't translate very well so I always have to guess at what people are saying), and I always take a long time to make sure that what I'm posting is relevant, makes sense, and that they will all understand it (as their english isn't fantastic, I use simple words and sentences). It probably takes about 10 times longer to browse the russian forums than it does english forums for me, but that extra time is well worth it because the russians are cool.

Now shut up, Mort.


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Old 07-28-2003, 03:35 PM   #30
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This thread has served its purpose, now its just getting stupid.
RayJones if you have anything else to discuss you can pm me or Mercatfat/Remi.

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