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Old 01-08-2007, 02:55 AM   #41
Windu Chi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
"Grays?" The very word reveals your credulous nature. You've shown that you have a head on your shoulders through many of your posts, but your personal incredulity is seems to be taken advantage of by your desire for the fantastical to be true.
I don't have no damn, credulous nature.
There is plenty of evidence, you just can't accept that the government is lying their asses off.
Why is it when people ask the government for UFO evidence they become secretive and avoid the question, and say that is classified, or they don't have no information, when later it is found that they do, by way of the flimsy, "freedom of information act"?
Freedom of information, my ass.
Lying, bastards! strongly
If there is nothing there, this behavior should be nullified.
Sith lord master, Dick Cheney himself said, the information was classified.
Hmm...I wonder?

Also I guess you said, "your desire for the fantastical to be true", because I want to travel the Milky Way right NOW.
If you want to hear for yourself, what he said, watch the UFO files on the History Channel, the episode is called, UFOs and the White House.
I got that damning evidence on my DVR.
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Old 01-08-2007, 03:09 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
I don't have no damn, credulous nature.
I didn't say your credulous nature was "damned," just present. And evident by your very words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
There is plenty of evidence, you just can't accept that the government is lying their asses off.
I'm asking you to cite it. What's the most convincing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Why is it when people ask the government for UFO evidence they become secretive and avoid the question, and say that is classified, or they don't have no information, when later it is found that they do, by way of the flimsy, "freedom of information act"?
This isn't evidence. Nor is it demonstrated to be true. Lets stick to facts we can discuss and examine, shall we. If you make a confidence statement such as this, at least do us the courtesy of citing a supporting text that can be referenced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Freedom of information, my ass.
Please curb your vulgarity. This is a family forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Lying, bastards! strongly
Please curb your vulgarity. This is a family forum. And it makes you look immature and silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
If there is nothing there, this behavior should be nullified.
Sith lord master, Dick Cheney himself said, the information was classified.
Hmm...I wonder?
I've no idea what this rant has to do with the topic at hand. Do you? Is there any way you can expound upon this? Do you have some evidence that Dick Cheney has information about your space aliens?

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Also I guess you said, "your desire for the fantastical to be true", because I want to travel the Milky Way right NOW.
I applaud your imagination. I'd like to do this myself. It doesn't make space aliens any more real on our world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
If you want to heard for yourself, what he said, watch the UFO files on the History Channel, the episode is called, UFOs and the White House.
I got that damning evidence on my DVR.
I fail to see how anything presented on the so-called "History" channel can be cited as evidence, since they barely qualify as tertiary sources. Do you have a primary source of evidence that you can cite?

What is the most convincing evidence of your space aliens?


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Old 01-08-2007, 03:41 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by SkinWalker
I'm asking you to cite it. What's the most convincing?
The info they gave up, of course is not all of it.
And the info is nothing but UFO reports, witness interviews from, Project Blue Book, or Project Bull**** and military investigations; the good info is still classified.
But once again this fails as evidence.
So, pointless!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
This isn't evidence. Nor is it demonstrated to be true. Lets stick to facts we can discuss and examine, shall we. If you make a confidence statement such as this, at least do us the courtesy of citing a supporting text that can be referenced.
Then what the hell is evidence, SkinWalker?
You don't trust nothing, unless your 5 senses is satified.
Cite it, you is not going to trust no internet, C'mon.


Quote:
Please curb your vulgarity. This is a family forum. And it makes you look immature and silly.
Ok, I will talk to you without cursing, since it scares you so much.

C'mon you think I'm silly anyways, you must think I'm a fool, that I don't realize that.
I want to travel the galaxy right NOW, how silly is that?
I think my adversaries will called that silly.
And for immature, I'm 22 years of age.
Wow, if you curse a lot you must be a child and really stupid, I heard that crap before.
I don't care what people think of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
I've no idea what this rant has to do with the topic at hand. Do you? Is there any way you can expound upon this? Do you have some evidence that Dick Cheney has information about your space aliens?
If you don't trust the History Channel, you won't trust the news if they had evidence, of course you won't trust the newspaper.
You won't ever trust nothing, unless you were there to experience it yourself, but with your skeptical nature you will probably still have doubt.
There is no satisfying you.
Stop being so suspicious and look at the program and then come back and comment on it.

Last edited by windu6; 01-08-2007 at 03:58 AM.
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Old 01-08-2007, 03:59 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
The info they gave up, of course is not all of it.

Then what the hell is evidence, SkinWalker?
You don't trust nothing, unless your 5 senses is satified.
Cite it, you is not going to trust no internet, C'mon.
You're not doing very well at avoiding his question. Just bring up some actual evidence that supports the idea that aliens have visited the Earth. You can't say that because we distrust the pseudo-axiom "because the government is silent, that means it is true" we're total skeptics about anything and everything, because that is not the case. I'm certainly willing to believe, so long as I have a concrete bridge of evidence to walk across.

Quote:
C'mon you think I'm silly anyways, you must think I'm a fool, that I don't realize that.
I want to travel the galaxy right NOW, how silly is that?
I think my adversaries will called that silly.
It is quite silly to believe that right now you can travel the galaxy, when we have enough trouble as it getting to the moon and back in one round trip and in whole shape. I understand you'd want to travel the universe and see all the wonders within right now, but that doesn't mean gasping at every conceivable straw will make it come quicker.

As an aside, I've noticed that in a good portion of your posts you always strike the debaters on the other side of your arguments as your adversaries and foes. Why is that? Why do you think we boast some sort of hatred or ill-desire for you and not that we merely are showing contempt for your arguments?

Quote:
If you don't trust the History Channel, you won't trust the news if they had evidence, of course you won't trust the newspaper.
You won't ever trust nothing, unless you was there to experience yourself, but with your skeptical nature you will probably still have doubt.
There is no satisfying you.
Stop being so suspicious and look at the program and then come back and comment on it.
I believe Americans had landed on the moon in 1969, and I was neither on the moon nor even born then. All I have is volumes of official reports, videos, materials, and what not to sway my belief about the subject, and that is enough to sway me. Subsequently, that is all the evidence I would need to prove to me that aliens have visited Earth, which has not been nearly fulfilled at all.



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Old 01-08-2007, 04:32 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
C'mon you think I'm silly anyways, you must think I'm a fool, that I don't realize that.
I want to travel the galaxy right NOW, how silly is that?
I don't think either of those things of you. I'm simply pointing out that one's vernacular goes a long way in creating impressions. It's also a rules violation, but I care more about how you're perceived even if you don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
I think my adversaries will called that silly.
And for immature, I'm 22 years of age.
Age doesn't automatically imply maturity. But, again, I don't think you're immature. I think you're very bright but credulous on some things. Wanting to travel the stars is neither silly nor immature, so please don't think I'm criticizing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Wow, if you curse a lot you must be a child and really stupid, I heard that crap before.
I don't care what people think of me.
Perhaps others care what people think of you. Regardless, its infinitely easier for me to have a discussion with someone who doesn't find the need to resort to needless profanity every third word. I suspect others find it easier as well. It also impedes your ability to make your point clearly and concisely. There's no harm in calling something bull**** from time to time, but like a good spice, such terms are best used sparingly so as to bring out flavor not overpower the senses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
If you don't trust the History Channel, you won't trust the news if they had evidence, of course you won't trust the newspaper.
The history channel is hardly on par with the news, but you're right. I am skeptical about some things I see on the news. I don't reject everything out of hand, but I find it healthy to question what I see, hear and read in the various news media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
You won't ever trust nothing, unless you were there to experience it yourself, but with your skeptical nature you will probably still have doubt.
There is no satisfying you.
Stop being so suspicious and look at the program and then come back and comment on it.
I trust a lot of things. Indeed, I was once very credulous like yourself. I bought into the whole UFO/space alien thing hook, line, and sinker back in the 80's and 90's. I wasn't much older than you. I read books like Communion and Alien Agenda and a few others and thought there was a grand conspiracy. Then I began a study in the sciences and developed the methods used in science to discover and examine the world. Interestingly enough, I found that when I encountered the lore of the UFO culture again, I had questions. Questions that the UFO movement couldn't answer. I had questions that religions couldn't answer. And questions that alternative medicine proponents couldn't answer. Questions that all sorts of incredible claims simply couldn't answer. I used to buy into each of them.

And, like you, I thought "skeptics" were fanatics who couldn't see the truth. I suppose "truth" is relative on some level, but in science and with true skeptics, an objective truth exists, even if we can't discern it.

I don't get the History channel. In fact, I rarely watch any television with exception to a few shows I regularly record from my rabbit ears or catch on PBS (Nova, The History Detectives, and the like). I read books. Watch documentaries that are produced based on scholarly sources rather than popular anecdotes (Guns, Germs & Steel).

I'm not saying I don't like to be entertained. I'm only saying that it is vital that, if you're interested in truth, to be able to separate fantasy from reality. I'll never reject fantasy, but I will endeavor to not confuse it with reality as best I'm able. I do this by asking questions. And not just the questions I hope I know the answers to.


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Old 01-08-2007, 05:37 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrion
You're not doing very well at avoiding his question. Just bring up some actual evidence that supports the idea that aliens have visited the Earth. You can't say that because we distrust the pseudo-axiom "because the government is silent, that means it is true" we're total skeptics about anything and everything, because that is not the case. I'm certainly willing to believe, so long as I have a concrete bridge of evidence to walk across.
Hey I'm not the answer man, ok.
If I had evidence the world would know.
The government and military secrecy for something that supposedly "didn't happen"; Roswell, is what got me interested in this.
As I will say again, I haven't seen no UFOs or been visited by aliens.
But I will believe in aliens until I'm a rotten corpse and infested with maggots.
I be damn I'm going to believe our society only, is it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrion
It is quite silly to believe that right now you can travel the galaxy, when we have enough trouble as it getting to the moon and back in one round trip and in whole shape. I understand you'd want to travel the universe and see all the wonders within right now, but that doesn't mean gasping at every conceivable straw will make it come quicker.
Then it's silly now, but the sudden closure of the Breakthough Propulsion Physics Project, that was run by NASA Glenn Research Center, is very suspicious(conspiracy maybe), they may have discover something, but it's funding was shut down by the Bush administration in 2003.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrion
As an aside, I've noticed that in a good portion of your posts you always strike the debaters on the other side of your arguments as your adversaries and foes. Why is that? Why do you think we boast some sort of hatred or ill-desire for you and not that we merely are showing contempt for your arguments?
I must forgot to take my pills.
I always expect enemies, that is my nature.
But when I mean adversaries, I meant opponents of the opposition, on the debate.

Last edited by windu6; 01-08-2007 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 01-09-2007, 11:45 AM   #47
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Thanks for splitting the thread, Skin. I was a little worried it might be considered too off-topic, but I felt the underlying idea was the same, so anyway.. it took longer than I expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
You must be joking, you know you don't believe in no damn furry monster, with the arguments you are presenting here.
Okay, try this: why do you think I don't believe in that furry monster?

Quote:
Defend it, please!
That is the best you can do, try to manipulate me in agreeing with you?
You want me to defend bullsh*t ass questions, I don't think so.
Your attempted manipulation fails, horribly!
I asked you to defend your position, not the questions. Your position being your stance on aliens, the government, etc etc. I asked you to answer the questions because I think they would reveal that you are not taking your reasoning to its logical conclusion. I asked you specifically, "why is xxx considered rediculous?" because I am sure that you either cannot answer in a logical manner - i.e., you'd say something like "I don't think it works that way" (which is not a logical answer, to be sure) or you'd have to agree with me that some ideas have more merit than others. Those ideas with more merit are the ones with some degree of evidence behind them, and the more evidence the better and more reliable the idea is. Clearly, you rejected all of the ideas that fail that test of evidence, so I believe you already agree with me on that point.

Getting you to apply this logic to your own ideas, such as aliens, government conspiracies and other similar things, is much harder for me because I cannot force you to give such a belief up. I can't make you see how it applies. I can only show you. So, you have a choice: you can either choose to believe in things irrationally, or you can realize that I am not some sort of skeptical grinch stealing your alien ideas. I'm simply doing the exact same thing you yourself have done in this thread and applying it to a belief you haven't yet been skeptical about.

I'm very sorry if I manipulated or distorted any facts or if my reasoning was incorrect. If you could point out where this supposedly happened, I'd be grateful. Thanks.


Quote:
Of course, damn I should've figure this out earlier, if no one chooses skepticism, they are always illogical.
Is that the best you got?
Can you do any better?
I didn't say that. I said (paraphrasing a bit): "If you're not skeptical of some things with no evidence behind them, you're credulous." Which is true.


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Old 01-09-2007, 12:29 PM   #48
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Here we go again!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Okay, try this: why do you think I don't believe in that furry monster?
I don't know what the hell you believe in and I don't care.
I just keep a open-mind and I believe absolutely nothing is impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I asked you to defend your position, not the questions. Your position being your stance on aliens, the government
I think I have done that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I asked you to answer the questions because I think they would reveal that you are not taking your reasoning to its logical conclusion.
A obvious conclusion to ridiculous questions, that is
obvious again, manipulation questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I asked you specifically, "why is xxx considered rediculous?" because I am sure that you either cannot answer in a logical manner - i.e., you'd say something like "I don't think it works that way" (which is not a logical answer, to be sure) or you'd have to agree with me that some ideas have more merit than others.
What you want me to say that lightning is cause by aliens, or muppets that live in the 28th dimension stomping their feet, all this [Expletive(s) Were Deleted] is obviously a damn trap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Getting you to apply this logic to your own ideas, such as aliens, government conspiracies and other similar things, is much harder for me because I cannot force you to give such a belief up. I can't make you see how it applies. I can only show you. So, you have a choice: you can either choose to believe in things irrationally, or you can realize that I am not some sort of skeptical grinch stealing your alien ideas. I'm simply doing the exact same thing you yourself have done in this thread and applying it to a belief you haven't yet been skeptical about.
Whatever you say, ok.
I believe nothing is impossible so, throw I dice and see what's the outcome,
if I'm wrong or people can proven me wrong, then I'm just wrong, I'm not the answer man.
But I don't believe I'm wrong on the UFO phenomenon; the government is lying, the military is lying and the news media I suspect in the U.S.A. aren't doing enough to investigate UFOs and the Roswell incident or pressuring the U.S. government for the truth, so I don't trust the news media either.
Conspiracy nut, then I'm a conspiracy nut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I'm very sorry if I manipulated or distorted any facts or if my reasoning was incorrect. If you could point out where this supposedly happened, I'd be grateful. Thanks.
Don't give me that [Expletive(s) Were Deleted], you plan this strategy all a long, I understand logic and no how it can be use in tactical ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I didn't say that. I said (paraphrasing a bit): "If you're not skeptical of some things with no evidence behind them, you're credulous." Which is true.
Only thing I'm skeptical about , as I hate to say that, is that existence comes from nothing.
Conundrum that is!

Last edited by SkinWalker; 01-09-2007 at 01:26 PM. Reason: Removed Profanity
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Old 01-09-2007, 01:28 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
I don't know what the hell you believe in and I don't care.
I just keep a open-mind and I believe absolutely nothing is impossible.
You're avoiding the question. Why wouldn't I believe in furry monsters? Because I have no reason to believe in them other than anecdotal evidence, which really is just opinions.

Quote:
I think I have done that.
Show me the facts you have brought up for any of your points. Show that your points are logically supportable. Show that it is rational to believe in something without evidence.

Quote:
A obvious conclusion to ridiculous questions, that is
obvious again, manipulation questions.
Thing about those questions is that they have something in common with your own ideas. They all are not supported by evidence. Guess what? Just because an idea is held by you doesn't mean it should be treated differently than another just like it. All of those questions are rediculous because there is no reason to believe in them. I find your belief in aliens, government conspiracies etc to be equally rediculous for the exact same reason you think my questions were.

Quote:
What you want me to say that lightning is cause by aliens, or muppets that live in the 28th dimension stomping their feet, all this bulls**t is obviously a damn trap.
Why is it so stupid to believe in it? Because there is no evidence. There is no reason to believe in it. I was trying to get that across to you, and you absolutely refuse to even entertain the idea or answer a simple question. You have so far provided zero (0) points that support your belief in aliens, and you haven't even bothered to try. You claim I'm trying to 'manipulate' you into agreeing with me, when I'm actually simply demonstrating the flaws in your own beliefs. If that leads you to my position, all the better.

Quote:
Whatever you say, ok.

I believe nothing is impossible so, throw I dice and see what's the outcome,
if I'm wrong or people can proven me wrong, then I'm just wrong, I'm not the answer man.
You're attempting to avoid responsibility for the logical outcome of your arguments. It's not helping you.

Quote:
But I don't believe I'm wrong on the UFO phenomenon; the government is lying, the military is lying and the news media I suspect in the U.S.A. aren't doing enough to investigate UFOs and the Roswell incident or pressuring the U.S. government for the truth, so I don't trust the news media either.
Conspiracy nut, then I'm a conspiracy nut.
Yeah, by that definition I suppose you are. You refuse to accept any evidence, or lack of evidence. You absolutely will not accept that you're wrong, that people aren't lying to you continuously, however unlikely that may be. Yes, I agree you are completely and totally irrational on that subject.


Quote:
Don't give me that bulls**t, you plan this strategy all a long, I understand logic and no how it can be use in tactical ways.
Then demonstrate you know how to use logic and carry my question to its conclusion. If you're correct then there is some real reason to believe in aliens. Is there? Show us. Show me.


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Old 01-09-2007, 01:33 PM   #50
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Believing that nothing is impossible and refusing to accept that some things are simply highly improbable are separate modalities of thought. One is reasonable (generally speaking), the other is irrational and credulous.

What you deem "a trap" is a logical analogy, which Samuel Dravis has presented for discussion. You clearly reject his analogy and refuse to discuss it. Yes, it is "a trap." That's the point. To corner you into using logic and reason rather than the unreasoned and credulous belief of space aliens.

My question again: what is the most compelling evidence for space aliens visiting our world?

My warning again: avoid the consistent use of profanity, even with the asterisk. I dislike editing posts as above and find it far more easy to click the delete button. The latter option is unfair to you, but the expletives in your post are unfair to the rest of us who prefer not to wade through them.


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Old 01-09-2007, 02:15 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by SkinWalker

My warning again: avoid the consistent use of profanity, even with the asterisk. I dislike editing posts as above and find it far more easy to click the delete button. The latter option is unfair to you, but the expletives in your post are unfair to the rest of us who prefer not to wade through them.
As many people I see curse on this forum with asterisks, you target me, I see what is going here.
Delete edit I don't care.
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Old 01-09-2007, 02:18 PM   #52
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The Senate Chambers is not the same as the rest of LucasForums. If you are attentive, I think you would find very little use of profanity in the vast majority of Senate Chambers posts, and if there IS profanity, it is used in moderation, not in every sentence.



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Old 01-09-2007, 02:29 PM   #53
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In addition to what ET has said above, I also notice that others heed casual warnings to curb this. I've given you several, very friendly and casual warnings about it. You've ignored them.

Finally, this will be the last off-topic post about it here. If you have any further questions or meta-discussion PM me, ET, and admin or start a thread in the Site Feedback subforum.


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Old 01-09-2007, 03:56 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
You're avoiding the question. Why wouldn't I believe in furry monsters? Because I have no reason to believe in them other than anecdotal evidence, which really is just opinions.
I don't care, can you accept that, I'm not avoiding question; I believe nothing is impossible, so obviously I will consider the possibilty of this furry monster as real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Show me the facts you have brought up for any of your points. Show that your points are logically supportable. Show that it is rational to believe in something without evidence.
Because existence is infinite, explain how something can come from nothing, without have to keep explaining a infinitude regression of previous creators of that something?
Also there is evidence, you don't understand the concept of secrecy; you trust the government and military so much that you are blind.
You are lost in their lying campaign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
You're attempting to avoid responsibility for the logical outcome of your arguments. It's not helping you.
Whatever you say!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Yeah, by that definition I suppose you are. You refuse to accept any evidence, or lack of evidence. You absolutely will not accept that you're wrong, that people aren't lying to you continuously, however unlikely that may be. Yes, I agree you are completely and totally irrational on that subject.
Whatever !
I'm wrong , I not smart enough yet to travel the Milky Way.
They are lying, the government and military.
Also you refuse accept that they are lying.
So, we have a impasse here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Then demonstrate you know how to use logic and carry my question to its conclusion. If you're correct then there is some real reason to believe in aliens. Is there? Show us. Show me.
Do I got to keep on saying this?
If I had evidence, you think I will be wasting my time here debating about this.
So, stop asking me.
I'm not telling you to prove that the government and military isn't lying, so stop asking me this annoying question.

Last edited by windu6; 01-10-2007 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 01-10-2007, 11:53 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
The history channel is hardly on par with the news, but you're right. I am skeptical about some things I see on the news. I don't reject everything out of hand, but I find it healthy to question what I see, hear and read in the various news media.
Sometimes the news gets it right, sometimes not. One of the things I saw when I spent a week at the Lyndon Johnson library doing some research on his relationship with Martin Luther King, Jr. was what reporters at that time said about Johnson's stance on civil rights and what LBJ actually said behind closed doors to his advisors could be very different. What LBJ asked his advisors to release ot the news about civil rights and what actually was reported in the news was sometimes also different. Those differences also varied by the individual reporters' stances on civil rights legislation. It was fascinating to track LBJ's memos to advisors, the statements released by the advisors to reporters, and reporters' articles. It was almost like a grown-up version of the 'Telephone Game' at times. Some of LBJ's comments on what the reporters wrote were rather pithy, too.


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Old 01-10-2007, 05:23 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
I believe nothing is impossible,
You don't say. Would you mind explaining why everyone should believe that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
how something can come from nothing, without have to keep explaining a infinitude regression of previous creators of that something?
Scientists are still researching that. In time it will be possible to create mini-bangs, which should grant us a greater understanding of the origins of the universe.

In any case, the statement 'nothing is impossible' is really quite contradictory. If nothing is impossible, then it's entirely possible there are some things which are impossible, since possibilities are limitless... which contradicts itself. There's really no logic to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Also there is evidence,
Show me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
They are lying, the government and military.
Would mind telling us all what they have been lying about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Also you refuse accept that they are lying.
Samuel seems reasonable enough not believe anything there is no proof of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
stop asking me this annoying question.
I'll take it you can't answer it? You've killed your own claims if you admit you can't back them up.


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Originally Posted by Sabretooth
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Old 01-10-2007, 06:55 PM   #57
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Windu, I think we're actually getting somewhere. To make my argument a bit easier to see, I'm going to rewrite mine.

I am skeptical of your claims that aliens are/were being held in Roswell because:

There is no evidence that they were according to the government.
Seperate investigations, including one done by the General Accounting Office (completed in 1994), searched through all surviving records held by the military and Air Force for that time period. They found no indication that there was anything other than a baloon (part of the then-top secret MOGUL project), used to observe nuclear explosions before seismic detection was available. This balloon carried a radar reflector quite similar in shape to a "flying saucer." Image.

There was no increase in messages, alerts, improved security, or activity of the Air Force, military or any other government agency involved that would indicate a cover-up.

The military's statement on the materials taken from the wreckage was that it was a "flying disc." Given that the term had only been in use for a few weeks beforehand in relation to the MOGUL project, it's quite understandable how people might misenterpret that statement.

I find the governments statements on these credible because:

1) Given that the base population was about 1800 by 1965, it is unlikely that if any alien claim was true, there would be evidence by then. People are notoriously bad at keeping secrets, particularly one on something so significant.

2) If any inconsistency in the government's activities were indeed true, then all of the UFOlogists would have had a cow. So far, I have heard no mooing.

3) Many of the prominent people involved in UFOlogy also have significant commercial interest in keeping public attention on their claims.

4) During the time from 1967 to 1990, the Cold War was in full swing. Spies from Russia penetrated our top-secret military bases and stole plans for nuclear weapons; it stands to reason that if there was actual contact between aliens and the US Military they would have known about it. This greatly increases the number of people who would know the "truth" of the Roswell incident. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, I have seen no Russian statements on UFOs.

Etc., etc. I could do more. My point is, you're going to have to bring up some more substantial evidence than "the government is lying" to raise your claim to a credible level. You have agreed that you have no such evidence.

Now, I want to talk about how to choose between two explanations. Rationally, this should be done quite similar to the way science does it; in fact, this is how I've been applying my logic through this entire discussion. Let's examine my case of the furry monster under the bed alongside your aliens:

Me: I claim that there is a monster under the bed. I also say that it turns invisible whenever it is looked for.

You: You say that the aliens crashed/landed in Roswell.


There is a similarity: You agree that you have no objective evidence for aliens. I agree that there is no objective evidence for my monster.

Since we are trying to get the most likely explanation, we have to consider all possibilities. My monster just may not exist. Your aliens may not have crashed. Are these more plausible than our existing claims? Above, I showed you why I didn't think there was reason to believe that aliens crashed in Roswell, even with the sort of culture that has grown up around them. You agree that the monster story is rediculous, and for good reason: You can find no evidence to support the idea, and there is another explanation that is better supported - the monster is not real. This is not to say that the aliens could not exist, or my monster could not exist - I do agree with you, pretty much anything is possible, strictly speaking. For instance, in the Evolution thread, Jae said that any chance beyond 1 in 10^50 is so small as to be pretty near zero, so she considers it literally impossible for something as unlikely as her number, 10^40000 to ever come about. She is correct; it is extremely unlikely, and I agree with her it is pretty much impossible to get lucky with those odds. However, even that may come about. There's just other explanations that fit better. Likewise, I just think that there are more probable explanations for the Roswell incident, and I showed you why.

Now I'm curious; why don't you think that other explanations are more plausible? Do you simply enjoy believing in aliens so much that you just don't care what case is more likely? If so, then that's simply illogical behavior. You don't come to the conclusion "aliens" from "flying disc." My belief in the monster doesn't make it real. Were I to tell people that I actually belived in it, they'd think I was delusional, the monster imaginary. They'd be right; there is no reason to belive the monster real, but certainly reason to believe that people can hallucinate. Which is more likely?

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
I don't care, can you accept that, I'm not avoiding question; I believe nothing is impossible, so obviously I will consider the possibilty of this furry monster as real.
You avoided it again. Let me restate it so it's clear in your mind:

I asked YOU what YOU thought of the existence of the monster. Do YOU think it exists? Do YOU think it is reasonable to consult this monster when planning a war? Do YOU think it's logical to believe in such a monster? Do YOU think it is reasonable to postulate its existence? Do YOU think that there is reason to modify your behavior based on what the monster might tell someone else?

Quote:
Because existence is infinite, explain how something can come from nothing, without have to keep explaining a infinitude regression of previous creators of that something?
I don't have to explain that. I've never tried. Do you have a reason to believe that existence is infinite?

Quote:
Also there is evidence, you don't understand the concept of secrecy; you trust the government and military so much that you are blind.
You are lost in their lying campaign.
Ah. Okay. Either show me I'm wrong, show that I have reasoned with the available evidence incorrectly, or stop telling me I'm taken in by lies.

Quote:
Whatever you say!
It's not "whatever I say." That's just the way it is.

Quote:
Whatever !
I'm wrong , I not smart enough yet to travel the Milky Way.
They are lying, the government and military.
Also you refuse accept that they are lying.
So, we have a impasse here.
No, I'll accept they're lying. I'll do that just as soon as you give me good reason to believe they are.
Quote:
Do I got to keep on saying this?
If I had evidence, you think I will be wasting my time here debating about this.
So, stop asking me.
I'm not telling you to prove that the government and military isn't lying, so stop asking me this annoying question.
The burden of proof is on the one who produces a positive argument. You have said "they are lying." Now show the proof that they are. If you, in fact, have no reason to believe they are lying... then I'm afraid you are the one doing the lying, so far as I can tell.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 01-10-2007, 07:21 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
You don't say. Would you mind explaining why everyone should believe that?
I going to believe that, I don't care if no one else ever believe what I believe.

I'm not asking nobody to believe what I believe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
In any case, the statement 'nothing is impossible' is really quite contradictory. If nothing is impossible, then it's entirely possible there are some things which are impossible, since possibilities are limitless... which contradicts itself. There's really no logic to it.
Yes, I know it is a contradiction, I have said before a while back that believing that nothing is impossible is believing in contradictions, so yes it is illogical, no argument there.
I think I have said that in the moral relativism thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Show me.
I'm not going to say this again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Would mind telling us all what they have been lying about?
Alien contact, Alien visitation of Earth.
Proof that we aren't alone in the Milky Way.
That we aren't the only intelligent life in the Milky Way.
Alien technology: in Area 51, July, 8 1947 Roswell Incident: the crash of a alien craft, recovery of alien technology by Air Force, that might explain some UFO reports.
Also:
Alien bodies: quote abovetopsecret.com, "Wright-Patterson AFB has become very well-known among UFO researchers and theorists due to its connection with the Roswell incident of July 1947. This is one of the locations, alongside the Groom Lake/Area51 installation in Nevada, where wreckage of a crashed UFO as well as alien bodies were shipped. Wreckage of the craft was shipped directly to Ohio aboard a B-29 after the mysterious crash and placed in the infamous Hangar 18."


Let me see... Philadelphia Experiment: a secret experiment conducted by the U.S. Navy at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard at Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on or before October 28 1943, in which the U.S. naval destroyer USS Eldridge was rendered invisible to human observers for a brief period of time.
That cause the ship by accident to teleport to the US naval base at Norfolk, Virginia.

Of course, there are other lies of the government, but I'm not going to flood this thread with them; look on the internet for others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Samuel seems reasonable enough not believe anything there is no proof of.
Whatever, ok!
Just to skeptical to trust any evidence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I'll take it you can't answer it? You've killed your own claims if you admit you can't back them up.
How many times I got to say this, I'M NOT THE DAMN ANSWER MAN, IF HAD THE DAMN EVIDENCE, THIS DEBATE WILL NEVER HAD EXISTED.

So, stop acting like I have the proof in my hands.

Last edited by windu6; 01-11-2007 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 01-10-2007, 07:52 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I am skeptical of your claims that aliens are/were being held in Roswell because:



There was no increase in messages, alerts, improved security, or activity of the Air Force, military or any other government agency involved that would indicate a cover-up.
So, you are going to conclude there is no lies because of that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
The military's statement on the materials taken from the wreckage was that it was a "flying disc." Given that the term had only been in use for a few weeks beforehand in relation to the MOGUL project, it's quite understandable how people might misenterpret that statement.
I don't trust military, what the hell make you think I'm going to believe their explanation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I find the governments statements on these credible because:






Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I asked YOU what YOU thought of the existence of the monster. Do YOU think it exists? Do YOU think it is reasonable to consult this monster when planning a war? Do YOU think it's logical to believe in such a monster? Do YOU think it is reasonable to postulate its existence? Do YOU think that there is reason to modify your behavior based on what the monster might tell someone else?
I don't care so, stop asking me this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I don't have to explain that. I've never tried. Do you have a reason to believe that existence is infinite?
Yes, how something can come from nothing, without have to keep explaining a infinitude regression of previous creators of that something?


Quote:
Ah. Okay. Either show me I'm wrong, show that I have reasoned with the available evidence incorrectly, or stop telling me I'm taken in by lies.
You think I'm credulous, I think you have been sweep up by lies.
So, we are just going to have to accept our differing opinions of each other.

Quote:
No, I'll accept they're lying. I'll do that just as soon as you give me good reason to believe they are.
The burden of proof is on the one who produces a positive argument. You have said "they are lying." Now show the proof that they are. If you, in fact, have no reason to believe they are lying... then I'm afraid you are the one doing the lying, so far as I can tell.
Stop saying me, I'm not the only one;
millions of others.
How the hell I'm I lying?
The burden of proof is not on me.
This is a debate forum not a proof forum.

Last edited by windu6; 01-10-2007 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:44 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
The burden of proof is not on me. This is a debate forum not a proof forum.
Windu, you're laughing at people for being duped by 'government lies', yet you haven't presented one shred of evidence to support your claims. Nobody is asking for definitive proof that aliens landed as Roswell. Indeed, there is rarely such thing as definitive proof. However, if you want people to take you seriously, you at least need to provide some form of logical reasoning for believing what you do. If you don't have any, how can you expect people to debate with you?


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Old 01-11-2007, 12:45 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by ewok mercenary
Windu, you're laughing at people for being duped by 'government lies', yet you haven't presented one shred of evidence to support your claims. Nobody is asking for definitive proof that aliens landed as Roswell. Indeed, there is rarely such thing as definitive proof. However, if you want people to take you seriously, you at least need to provide some form of logical reasoning for believing what you do. If you don't have any, how can you expect people to debate with you?
Skeptics won't trust any evidence, so I don't give a damn about it.
But there is evidence that the government of the U.S.A is lying; watch the UFO files on the History Channel, the episode is called, UFOs and the White House.

If you don't want to look at that program.
Then this what happen:

Grant Cameron, a Presidential Researcher ask Dick Cheney a question:
Cheney's appearance on the Washington D.C. Public Radio Station WAMU on April 11, 2001 on the Diana Rehm show. Dick Cheney spoke from the White House.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Cameron
There is a vicious rumor circulating in the UFO community that you've been read into the UFO program. So my question to you is, in any of your government jobs, have you ever been briefed on the subject of UFOs, and if you have, when was it and what were you told?
This is what Dick Cheney said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Cheney
Well, if I had been briefed on it, I'm sure it was probably classified and I couldn't talk about it
Now, the skeptics argument is, oh that's not a shred of evidence, then I say then the hell with it.
Like I said, skeptics isn't going to trust any evidence.
The opinions that skeptics have of UFO believers is that I and them is believing a delusion and we believe they are living a lie, with their trust in government.
So, it is just going to have to be a impasse.
Skeptics is not going to believe any evidence and UFO believers is not going to believe any of the government's and military explanations.
So, it is just going to stay this way.
Time will tell who's right.

Last edited by windu6; 01-11-2007 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 01-11-2007, 01:12 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Skeptics won't trust any evidence, so I don't give a damn about it.
Which, again, shows that you don't understand the first real thing about skepticism. Skeptics must accept evidence that is testable and verifiable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
But there is evidence that the government of the U.S.A is lying; watch the UFO files on the History Channel, the episode is called, UFOs and the White House.
You keep telling us to watch a television program that is designed to appeal to popular audiences and obtain ratings, make money for producers, etc. A few out-of-context quotes by politicians, anecdotes to which there is no verification or testing available, is hardly any sort of evidence. One of our politicians thinks god speaks to him. Others believe astrology has something that can truly be said about how to live their lives. Being a politician does not make an anecdote "evidence" nor does being on television constitute "evidence."

We're asking for real evidence. Either you have it or you don't. Obviously its the latter.

The real subject of this thread, however, isn't whether or not windu6 is correct in his beliefs of space aliens but, rather, the ways in which relatively smart people allow themselves to be duped in to believing weird things. That process is aided by a credulous nature combined with the desire to believe in one or more specific fantastical ideas as well as being biased in skepticism.

That's right. Windu6 and many others who are openly critical of skeptics are, themselves, skeptical. Only they apply their skepticism with bias. If an idea or notion is counter to their beliefs, they're automatically skeptical of it. If the idea or notion supports their beliefs, they accept it blindly. Take the contrary skeptical ideas windu6 has mentioned above in the same post: he is skeptical of anything the government says, unless it supports his claim (Dick Cheney's commnet?). He's skeptical of academia and rational responses, but supportive of lore and myth that supports him (Roswell & the so-called 'Philadelphia Experiment').

Why doesn't the believer apply skepticism or even lack of skepticism uniformly? The answer is that the original notion or idea is what is already true in the mind of the believer. The only thing left is to find supporting data to be able to say "see, that's what I'm talking about." Conversely, the believer must reject any data that is not supportive and even counter to the original idea or notion.


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Old 01-11-2007, 03:21 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
So, you are going to conclude there is no lies because of that?

I don't trust military, what the hell make you think I'm going to believe their explanation?
I conclude that there's no reason to believe that they are lying on this particulary subject. If you want more reasons, I can provide them.

Quote:
I don't care so, stop asking me this.
Why? The reasoning behind your answers to those questions will show you clearly your argument's validity - or that it's illogical. You really don't care to improve your understanding?

Quote:
Yes, how something can come from nothing, without have to keep explaining a infinitude regression of previous creators of that something?
Go ask that question of people who believe your idea. I have no reason to believe it.

Quote:
You think I'm credulous, I think you have been sweep up by lies.
So, we are just going to have to accept our differing opinions of each other.
Incorrect. I have reason to believe you are credulous. You, by your own admission, cannot show me any reason that suggests I am taken in.

Quote:
Stop saying me, I'm not the only one;
millions of others.
You're the one making the argument here so I address you in particular. Besides, even if everyone else that ever lived believed in something, it woudn't make it more rational. It wouldn't make it more believable. It would simply mean that people are acting irrational. By the way, by this statement of yours you commit the logical fallacy known as the Appeal to the Majority.

Quote:
How the hell I'm I lying?
You're making statements which, so far as I can tell, are not true. You are presenting them as true, though. How is that not a lie?

Quote:
The burden of proof is not on me.

This is a debate forum not a proof forum.
You made the claim. The burden is yours. This applies in any argument, made anywhere, by anyone. What if I said I require you to disprove the furry monster? That's rediculous, and it's rediculous because it can't be done. So you must produce proof that shows your position is more likely than any other. You have not done so.

Interestingly enough, I had actually believed in one conspiracy theory for a few hours a while back. Apparently it was about the government (of course) redefining "citizens" as some sort of chattel. It was convincing enough for a while. Fortunately I always look up opposing views on the internet, mainly because that's the surest way to figure out if something is correct. Anyways, it was pretty embarrassing. I think I even posted a thread on this forum about it, but deleted it after I realized I was an idiot - fortunately no one had responded.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 01-11-2007, 03:25 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
You made the claim. The burden is yours. This applies in any argument. What if I said I require you to disprove the furry monster? That's rediculous, and it's rediculous because it can't be done. So you must produce proof that shows your position is more likely than any other.
Everyone should take this and memorise it. This is the type of strawman posts that should be ignored.

SkinWalker, do yourself a favor and get a digital box. I know how much a bad TV reception sucks and even the cheapest one will get you razor sharp clear picture and extra channels. For what, 30 bucks, it's worth every cent.
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Old 01-11-2007, 03:28 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Everyone should take this and memorise it. This is the type of strawman posts that should be ignored.
Explain exactly how it is a strawman, and why it is incorrect.


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Old 01-11-2007, 03:33 PM   #66
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To demand an answer to something like whether or not Atheists think they have the right to persecute, or to demand evidence of a furry monster, is what SkinWalker calls a strawman. From my experience one way it's wrong in the way McCarthism was wrong, the Salem witch trials were wrong, ect in that in those denials of guilt became admissions and only confessions were accepted. Same here, you put forward your case and it's rejected. SW could probably explain it better than me.
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Old 01-11-2007, 03:42 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
To demand an answer to something like whether or not Atheists think they have the right to persecute, or to demand evidence of a furry monster, is what SkinWalker calls a strawman. From my experience one way it's wrong in the way McCarthism was wrong, the Salem witch trials were wrong, ect in that in those denials of guilt became admissions and only confessions were accepted. Same here, you put forward your case and it's rejected. SW could probably explain it better than me.
I'm not sure how my post applies in your statement. I simply require evidence to believe in something. When windu says "aliens have been to roswell" then I expect him to show me that they have. Otherwise he's simply someone with a belief that's not founded in anything discernable.

If someone asked me for proof that my monster is real, I wouldn't be able to give it to them. Why not? Because the monster disappears when it's looked for. Ah hah.

When windu says the aliens were there, he's not able to show any evidence for it. Why not? The evidence disappears when it's looked for. Ah.

What's the difference? What's the difference between those suggestions and nothing being at roswell? What's the actual difference between that view and the fact that my monster doesn't exist?

There is no effective difference. Thus, Occam's Razor:

There is no reason to believe that aliens were at Roswell.
Aliens were not at Roswell.


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Old 01-11-2007, 03:45 PM   #68
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I'm not sure if you misread what I said, but I was referring to this bit in particular, 'What if I said I require you to disprove the furry monster? That's rediculous, and it's rediculous because it can't be done.' You are so right in saying that, and for someone to demand to disprove it is unfair.
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Old 01-11-2007, 03:49 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
I'm not sure if you misread what I said, but I was referring to this bit in particular, 'What if I said I require you to disprove the furry monster? That's rediculous, and it's rediculous because it can't be done.' You are so right in saying that, and for someone to demand to disprove it is unfair.
Oh, okay. Sorry for jumping on you like that.

But yeah, I don't require absolute proof of anything. I just need some reason to believe - I don't want to be so openminded my brains fall out. I can't prove that something is impossible, or that something is true in an absolute sense. The only thing I can do is show that's it's more likely/unlikely than another explanation. Whether I like it or not, the answer I get is as accurate as I can make it, and I'll accept anyone's help in making it even better - which is why I like talking here in the Senate.


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Old 01-11-2007, 05:03 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Cheney
Well, if I had been briefed on it, I'm sure it was probably classified and I couldn't talk about it
Actually, this sounds like a tongue-in-cheek answer by Cheney--he has a very dry sense of humor.


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Old 01-11-2007, 05:12 PM   #71
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Well, if I had been briefed on it, I'm sure it was probably classified and I couldn't talk about it
Which is true. As far as I understand it, he's not allowed to answer. That's how such things work.

To strike a rough analogy, if you asked me (who's joining the Norwegian R.C. visitation service) or Jae (who's a doctor) if a certain person we were seeing was possessed by demons, technically we'd not be allowed to answer "yes" or "no" (although I either would give you a "no" or tell you how absolutely absurd the belief in demonic possession is in the year of 2007).

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Old 01-11-2007, 05:43 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Everyone should take this and memorise it. This is the type of strawman posts that should be ignored.
I honestly don't see how that is a straw man at all. A straw man is a counter argument that takes the original argument, misrepresents it, and then refutes the incorrect argument. This sets up a situation where it looks like the original argument or statement was answered and refuted, when it actually was not.



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Old 01-11-2007, 05:48 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Go ask that question of people who believe your idea. I have no reason to believe it.
It's my damn belief ok, I'm going to believe it anyway I don't care if no one share it.
I'm not asking you to believe it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Incorrect. I have reason to believe you are credulous. You, by your own admission, cannot show me any reason that suggests I am taken in.
And I have a reason to believe that you have been taken in by lies.
Our opinions isn't going to change so, stop believing you are right because you're skeptical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
You're the one making the argument here so I address you in particular. Besides, even if everyone else that ever lived believed in something, it woudn't make it more rational. It wouldn't make it more believable. It would simply mean that people are acting irrational. By the way, by this statement of yours you commit the logical fallacy known as the Appeal to the Majority.
You are also commiting a logical Formal fallacy of Apeal to ridicule: with your ridiculous questions about this damn furry monster.
And a logical fallacy of Appeal to authority: because of your blind trust in the government, that your strong belief that they are a totally objective source, with their claims and that they don't tell false truths ever, with no doubt in your mind.
Also you are commiting another logical fallacy of Appeal to consequences:
Appeal to consequences: known as argumentum ad consequentiam (Latin: argument to the consequences), is an argument that concludes a premise (typically a belief) to be either true or false based on whether the premise leads to desirable or undesirable consequences.
Because:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I find the governments statements on these credible because:

1) Given that the base population was about 1800 by 1965, it is unlikely that if any alien claim was true, there would be evidence by then. People are notoriously bad at keeping secrets, particularly one on something so significant.

2) If any inconsistency in the government's activities were indeed true, then all of the UFOlogists would have had a cow. So far, I have heard no mooing.

3) Many of the prominent people involved in UFOlogy also have significant commercial interest in keeping public attention on their claims.

4) During the time from 1967 to 1990, the Cold War was in full swing. Spies from Russia penetrated our top-secret military bases and stole plans for nuclear weapons; it stands to reason that if there was actual contact between aliens and the US Military they would have known about it. This greatly increases the number of people who would know the "truth" of the Roswell incident. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, I have seen no Russian statements on UFOs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
You're making statements which, so far as I can tell, are not true. You are presenting them as true, though. How is that not a lie?
And you are lying to yourself that the government isn't keeping these secrets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
4) During the time from 1967 to 1990, the Cold War was in full swing. Spies from Russia penetrated our top-secret military bases and stole plans for nuclear weapons; it stands to reason that if there was actual contact between aliens and the US Military they would have known about it. This greatly increases the number of people who would know the "truth" of the Roswell incident. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, I have seen no Russian statements on UFOs.
Russia still keep secrets, but they do have UFO phenomenon.
KGB kept UFO secrets.
look here for more UFOs in Russia.
The site is called UFO Evidence.
So, you don't trust it, you don't believe there is UFO evidence.
Make your choice!
Russia also had a Roswell similar event:
On September 16, 1989 in the sky above a port the Zaostrovka, on fringe of Perm, occured something strange. Many inhabitants, open mouthes, watched unprecedented battle. Six strange silvery devices reminding combined together plates, coursed behind seventh more dark.
Look here for more. Russian Roswell ? .
Of course you don't trust the internet, video, pictures, people, or the History Channel...etc.

So, click on the link or don't; I don't give a damn.

Last edited by windu6; 01-11-2007 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:04 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by windu6
It's my damn belief ok, I'm going to believe it anyway I don't care if no one share it.
I'm not asking you to believe it.
I don't care what you believe - until you say it in a debate forum or otherwise public place. Then I'm happy to criticize.

Quote:
And I have a reason to believe that you have been taken in by lies.
Our opinions isn't going to change so, stop believing you are right because you're skeptical.
If you have reason to believe I am taken in, then tell me the reason.

Quote:
You are also commiting a logical Formal fallacy of Apeal to ridicule: with your ridiculous questions about this damn furry monster.
How about we check wikipedia, okay? Show that an analogy used to demonstrate underlying reasoning is an appeal to ridicule. I never mocked your argument. I simply demonstrated that, because there is no evidence for either situation, then there is no reason to believe that either hypothetical existed. I'd like you to take the parts of my posts that do so in your opinion and tell me why, exactly, you think they are ridiculing/making your argument look rediculous.

Besides, I'd hardly have to make your arguments look rediculous in order to win any points. By their very nature they already are.

Quote:
And a logical fallacy of Appeal to authority: because of your blind trust in the government, that your strong belief that they are a totally objective source, with their claims and that they don't tell false truths ever, with no doubt in your mind.
Again, check the definition. Blind trust is not a factor. I personally have seen the government tell the truth, particularly on reports. There are many government agencies that do so. The GAO is a reliable source, as it has been in the past. If you have reason to doubt their credibility on this statement, then demonstrate the reason. I've never said that ANY source is completely reliable, myself included. In fact, I've explicitly stated otherwise. Perhaps you might want to look at my statement a few posts up about absolute "truth."

Quote:
Also you are commiting another logical fallacy of Appeal to consequences:
Appeal to consequences: known as argumentum ad consequentiam (Latin: argument to the consequences), is an argument that concludes a premise (typically a belief) to be either true or false based on whether the premise leads to desirable or undesirable consequences.
Let's see what I actually said since you've already read up on wiki.

Have I ever: claimed to know that your story was true or false?
Have I ever: shown that I want one side to be correct and the other not?
Have I ever: declared that I would not believe in the face of actual evidence?

Please demonstrate and quote exactly where I have committed any of these fallacies or, of course, any others. I appreciate you attempting to correct my arguments.

Quote:
And you are lying to yourself that the government isn't keeping these secrets.
Demonstrate that they are keeping aliens secret.

Quote:
Russia still keep secrets, but they do have UFO phenomenon.
KGB kept UFO secrets.
look here for more UFOs in Russia.
The site is called UFO Evidence.
So, you don't trust it, you don't believe there is UFO evidence.
Make your choice!
I acknowledge that there are UFOs, as in Unidentified Flying Objects. I don't see how you make the jump to "aliens in roswell," "KGB kept secrets on aliens" and "coverup." They just don't follow.

Quote:
Russia also had a Roswell similar event:
On September 16, 1989 in the sky above a port the Zaostrovka, on fringe of Perm, occured something strange. Many inhabitants, open mouthes, watched unprecedented battle. Six strange silvery devices reminding combined together plates, coursed behind seventh more dark.
Look here for more. Russian Roswell ? .
I checked that link, and it was a witness account of one person. Also, neither of the links worked at the bottom, so I couldn't investigate further. Nikolay Subbotin, Director of the Russian UFO Research Station, apparently uses geocities to host his sites. That doesn't really add credibility to his account.

Quote:
Of course you don't trust the internet, video, pictures, people, or the History Channel...etc.
Present some evidence! All you have given are simply opinions. Pictures of aliens would be great, so long as they appear in a credible source and are documented with other hard evidence. Things are far too easy to photoshop these days - I could easily make a UFO pic myself I felt like it.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein

Last edited by Samuel Dravis; 01-11-2007 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:26 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
I honestly don't see how that is a straw man at all.
I might have misunderstood what SkinWalker meant when he referred to strawman posts, but my point is Samuel is spot on about his comment on disproving furry monsters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Present some evidence!
I covered this, but how about Area 51? For decades this was kept hidden and only recently has the government admitted it's existence. I said how I can accept they tested experimental aircraft there, but was such an explanation ever made? I think all we know for certain is it's existence. So why cover it up for so long?
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:45 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis


Show that an analogy used to demonstrate underlying reasoning is an appeal to ridicule. I never mocked your argument. I simply demonstrated that, because there is no evidence for either situation, then there is no reason to believe that either hypothetical existed. I'd like you to take the parts of my posts that do so in your opinion and tell me why, exactly, you think they are ridiculing/making your argument look rediculous.
Don't play stupid with me ok, you meant ridicule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Besides, I'd hardly have to make your arguments look rediculous in order to win any points. By their very nature they already are.
Ah, another fallacy, ad hominem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I personally have seen the government tell the truth, particularly on reports. There are many government agencies that do so. The GAO is a reliable source, as it has been in the past. If you have reason to doubt their credibility on this statement, then demonstrate the reason. I've never said that ANY source is completely reliable, myself included. In fact, I've explicitly stated otherwise. Perhaps you might want to look at
You personally have seen the government tell the truth.
like I said, appeal to the authority.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Have I ever: claimed to know that your story was true or false?
Well, your arguments seem to show evidence, that you all already believe it is false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Have I ever: shown that I want one side to be correct and the other not?
Don't give me that bull, you want to believe that you haven't been wash up by the government lies.
So, you want your side to be correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Have I ever: declared that I would not believe in the face of actual evidence?
You don't believe in any evidence so, by your arguments here you already made up your mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Please demonstrate and quote exactly where I have committed any of these fallacies or, of course, any others. I appreciate you attempting to correct my arguments.

I don't need to quote; your blind trust in government:appeal to the authority; your belief that people in the government can't keep secrets this extraordinary, so the UFO phenomenon can't be true from your reasoning:appeal to consequences.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I checked that link, and it was a witness account of one person. Also, neither of the links worked at the bottom, so I couldn't investigate further. Nikolay Subbotin, Director of the Russian UFO Research Station, apparently uses geocities to host his sites. That doesn't really add credibility to his account.
You are lying I have check those links, they work.
Quote:
Present some evidence! All you have given are simply opinions. Pictures of aliens would be great, so long as they appear in a credible source and are documented with other hard evidence. Things are far too easy to photoshop these days - I could easily make a UFO pic myself I felt like it.
Stop asking me to present evidence because I don't have it, I'm giving you internet links to the evidence that exist out there.
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Old 01-11-2007, 09:07 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by windu6
Don't play stupid with me ok, you meant ridicule.
Show that they were ridiculing your argument. I attacked your claims because they had no evidence behind them.

Quote:
Ah, another fallacy, ad hominem.
I hardly attacked you in my statements about you not having any evidence, did I?

Quote:
You personally have seen the government tell the truth.
like I said, appeal to the authority.
The GOA has been around since 1921. So far its reports have been fairly credible, even so far as to exposing people being exposed to hazardous chemicals by the government. Your reason to doubt their credibility is...?

Quote:
Well, your arguments seem to show evidence, that you all already believe it is false.
I simply don't believe in things that have no evidence to show for them.

Quote:
Don't give me that bull, you want to believe that you haven't been wash up by the government lies.
So I, who am talking on a Star Wars forum, who likes space exploration and loves scifi books, wants there to be no evidence for aliens. Yes, of course.

Just give me a reason that makes your conspiracy theory reasonable and I'll accept it.

Quote:
You don't believe in any evidence so, by your arguments here you already made up your mind.
My mind is at the default state - I have no active belief in anything without sufficient evidence. Anything which doesn't produce evidence is effectively non-existent and I can fairly safely ignore it. You haven't provided any evidence, so....


Quote:
You are lying I have check those links, they work.
Okay, let's try them together, shall we?

Director RUFORS (Russian UFO Research Station)
[http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6303]
Editor Russian UFO Magazine "Dialog: Earth - Space"
[http://www.cross.ru/dialog]


First: Requested page not found.
Second: Translated via google, it's a 404. Page not found.

Quote:
Stop asking me to present evidence because I don't have it, I'm giving you internet links to the evidence that exist out there.
You haven't given links to any credible evidence yet.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 01-11-2007, 09:36 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
The GOA has been around since 1921. So far its reports have been fairly credible, even so far as to exposing people being exposed to hazardous chemicals by the government. Your reason to doubt their credibility is...?
Have you been paying close attention?
I don't trust the government, have I been saying that all this time I don't trust the government, including any part of it, if I forgot to post that info.
Just like you don't trust ANY UFO evidence, I don't trust ANY government evidence.
So, like I have been saying, we have a impasse here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Director RUFORS (Russian UFO Research Station)
[http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6303]
Editor Russian UFO Magazine "Dialog: Earth - Space"
[http://www.cross.ru/dialog]

First: Requested page not found.
Second: Translated via google, it's a 404. Page not found.
Those links don't work, because they wasn't hyperlinked.
You took those web addresses and search a search engine.


Quote:
You haven't given links to any credible evidence yet.
Whatever you believe ok, you aren't going to trust any evidence.
Any UFO evidence is not credible to you.
The only evidence you will trust if you could have a beer with the aliens, discuss topics with the aliens, ride on there ships, right?
So, you is not going to trust anything why keep asking for it if you will never believe it as credible?

Last edited by windu6; 01-12-2007 at 01:57 AM.
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Old 01-11-2007, 09:58 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
I might have misunderstood what SkinWalker meant when he referred to strawman posts, but my point is Samuel is spot on about his comment on disproving furry monsters.
I think you may have. A Straw Man argument is one that argues against a position which you create specifically to be easy to argue against, rather than the position actually held by those who oppose your point of view.

What he did was create an analogy to show the logical structure of windu6's premise and how it didn't logically wash. He did a good job of it too. Particularly since the logical structure is so obviously flawed, even windu6 wasn't ready to embrace it beyond his own pre-conceived conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
I covered this, but how about Area 51? For decades this was kept hidden and only recently has the government admitted it's existence. I said how I can accept they tested experimental aircraft there, but was such an explanation ever made? I think all we know for certain is it's existence. So why cover it up for so long?
It's a fallacy (a non sequitur, to be exact) to think that because the government, specifically the Department of Defense, has secrets, it must, therefore, be hiding space aliens.

A good overview of logical fallacies can be found at: The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe. They also have one of the top podcasts on iTunes.


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Old 01-12-2007, 12:51 AM   #80
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Of course it's a fallacy to believe every conspiracy theory in the book. I'm quite happy to accept that was where experimental aircraft were stored, but still I wonder if maybe there was something there. Was there ever a reason for the government saying 'Area 51 does not exist and if you're smart you'll stop asking questions'? Doesn't really matter, it's not something I'll lose sleep over. I'd be interested if there was an answer though.
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