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Old 05-01-2004, 01:09 AM   #321
Tyrion
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Do you think it would be better if God just controlled all our lives and neverlet us think for ourselves or do anything for ourselves?
As a matter of fact, I do. If we're happy, and we haven't experienced free will, then we wouldn't have as much sorrow as we do now.

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As for the integrity of the Bible, why would God let the integrity of His word go downhill. That wouldn't seem right for those of us who weren't lucky enough to be born a long time ago.....in a galaxy far far away.hehehehe
For the same reason that he had let us go evil, I imagine. And if I lived in a galaxy far far away..you could bet a week's pay that I'd be trying to prove that the force wasn't real.



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Old 05-01-2004, 10:29 AM   #322
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Originally posted by Tyrion
And if I lived in a galaxy far far away..you could bet a week's pay that I'd be trying to prove that the force wasn't real.
you BLASPHEMER!!!!





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Old 05-01-2004, 05:21 PM   #323
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About the sperm thing, im thinking its more deliberate.

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Then, when you're trying to have a baby(having sex without a condom in order to have a baby) and fail, you've wasted lots of sperm. Therefore you're a killer.
No....thats not your fault.

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Over the course of 2000 years, the Bible has undergone extensive changes. Its been interperted and re-interperted countless times. King's have changed it to suit them better and make their rule seem more like God's command. So, with this knowledge on hand, who among us is to say 'But its always been against gays!'? How do any of us know that Random King didn't have an on-going grudge against a homosexual, so in order to have justification for killing that said homosexual, had the Bible(because as we all know, King's were selected by God) altered to say that the aforementioned homosexual was a 'heretic and blasphemer, a follower of Lucifer!'? Well we don't. The argument 'An original would have survived the alteration' doesn't hold ground because the King would order every Bible in his Kingdom destroyed, and anyone who disobeyed would be a heretic and murdered.
http://www.biblestudysite.org/incredib.htm

You cant change the past.

Not to mention, back then (before the 1500s) they only made about 2 bibles per year. Only Nobles, or rich land owners, or monarchs could read (in the areas where christianity was strongest)

Look at history, when a monarch went against the catholic church (i dont believe in catholism, but im using this to show a point) the peasants and town people revolted. I seem to recall a few English kings were killed due to things like that. Can a king stop a thousand angry peasents? Would he even try, or just give the people what they want? And things for sure, back then, religion was what most people had, and didnt want to lose, or be changed. At least not for the desires of a monarch, or a few other people.

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Well do you really think God would want His word to change and let those of of us who get it later to get the wrong message? I don't believe that God would let that happen!
Exactly (not to mention, if you dont know its a sin, your not held accountable untill you know it is.) For example, lets say I didnt know lying was wrong. So, I lie. Im not accountable. But, lets say a week later someone tells me lying is wrong, I then know, and should repent.

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So then in essence, God has failed for us because he isn't stopping the bloodshed, and since he doesn't stop us commiting unthinkable sins, why would he make sure The Bible retained it's integrity?
God hasnt failed us, we have failed Him. He wants all the people He can get, but He wont force himself on someone. He allows us to have freewill. When did he say that he will stop the bloodshed? (and please.. if you look in the bible, dont take anything out of context)
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Old 05-01-2004, 06:11 PM   #324
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 No....thats not your fault.
But God, through inaction, has let the innocent would-be souls die...if nothing else, I would think that god's a tad bit cruel for allowing the deaths of a million fresh souls.


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Exactly (not to mention, if you dont know its a sin, your not held accountable untill you know it is.) For example, lets say I didnt know lying was wrong. So, I lie. Im not accountable. But, lets say a week later someone tells me lying is wrong, I then know, and should repent.
I feel a whole lot safer at night knowing God would rather have his book be unspoilled, than to make sure we all wouldn't be killed or raped.


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God hasnt failed us, we have failed Him. He wants all the people He can get, but He wont force himself on someone. He allows us to have freewill. When did he say that he will stop the bloodshed? (and please.. if you look in the bible, dont take anything out of context)
Well..God has evil in him, or is imperfect. He was able to create us to become evil..and we're all supposedly a part of him, so he's also evil. A trurly benevolent God would stop the bloodshed, stop the mass commitance of sin. Hypothetical situation: You see a raping accuring on the streets. You have the power to not just stop it, but reverse time so that the vitcim never knew, and the raper would never do it. Isn't it evil to allow it to happen, to allow the raper to be filled with hate and lust?

Ultimately, it's all because of God. He's allowed his creations, us, to sin. He's allowed us to be corrupted by Satan, instead of turning satan into another benevolent creature. The Good and Evil in this world is because of God, he is responsible for the happiness we all get..and the evil that corrupts and torture us.




Last edited by Tyrion; 05-01-2004 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 05-01-2004, 10:30 PM   #325
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Well..God has evil in him, or is imperfect. He was able to create us to become evil..and we're all supposedly a part of him, so he's also evil. A trurly benevolent God would stop the bloodshed, stop the mass commitance of sin. Hypothetical situation: You see a raping accuring on the streets. You have the power to not just stop it, but reverse time so that the vitcim never knew, and the raper would never do it. Isn't it evil to allow it to happen, to allow the raper to be filled with hate and lust?
I know what you mean, and everyone wants bad things not to happen, including God. Solomon said:

Quote:

Ecclesiastes Chapter 8

16 I tried to understand all that happens on earth. I saw how busy people are, working day and night and hardly ever sleeping. 17 I also saw what God has done. Nobody can understand what God does here on earth. No matter how hard people try to understand it, the cannot. Even if wise people say they can understand it, they cannot; no one can really understand it.

NCV Bible
Of course God could do someting, but once again, remember we have free will! If he stopped someone from raping, or murdering someone, he would be interfering with free will. He doesnt want bad things to happen, but, people do them. Is He the one to blame?

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Ecclesiastes Chapter 3

16 I also saw here on earth:
Where there should have been justice,
there was evil;
where there should have been right,
there was wrong.
17 I said to myself,
God has planned a time for everything
and every action,
so he will judge both good people and bad.

NCV Bible
We dont understand God, just like we dont understand why certain things happen.

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Ultimately, it's all because of God. He's allowed his creations, us, to sin. He's allowed us to be corrupted by Satan, instead of turning satan into another benevolent creature. The Good and Evil in this world is because of God, he is responsible for the happiness we all get..and the evil that corrupts and torture us.
Well, Satan is the father of evil. I know God made Satan, but still, your son could sin, but does that mean your responsible? Like in the verses up above, we dont understand God.

I said in another thread, God wanted true love. Not just mindless brainless love. At least this way he can see who really loves him, despite there evil nature.


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Isn't it evil to allow it to happen, to allow the raper to be filled with hate and lust?
The raper can conquere his hate and lust, if he just simply asks.

Ok, I make it sound easy. Its not. It takes prayer, time, devotion, and a strong will, trust, and faith in God. Sort of like stopping an addiction to a drug, or alcohol.
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Old 05-01-2004, 10:44 PM   #326
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Of course God could do someting, but once again, remember we have free will! If he stopped someone from raping, or murdering someone, he would be interfering with free will. He doesnt want bad things to happen, but, people do them. Is He the one to blame?
So it's interfering when God turns us good..but it's suddenly alright when God makes miracles happen?

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We dont understand God, just like we dont understand why certain things happen.
But we try to find the answer, you're happy with just believing you can't find the answer.

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Well, Satan is the father of evil. I know God made Satan, but still, your son could sin, but does that mean your responsible? Like in the verses up above, we dont understand God.
Well, yes, you are responsible if the son is under 18. The real question is, what age to do we have to get to become responsible for ourselves?


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The raper can conquere his hate and lust, if he just simply asks.
There has been theories that some humans actually cannot control thier hate and lust, that it isn't in thier DNA to acknowledge what evil they're commiting. For example, they think that Saddam is missing a gene that makes he and his sons not able to feel remorse or doubt to kill a person. I suppose it makes sense; just as likely for someone to be foreign to feelings of guilt, as it is for someone to be unable to grasp what 2+2 is.




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Old 05-02-2004, 04:37 AM   #327
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Of course God could do someting, but once again, remember we have free will! If he stopped someone from raping, or murdering someone, he would be interfering with free will. He doesnt want bad things to happen, but, people do them. Is He the one to blame?
usually, if someone constructs a car, and he made the breaks like too weak or something, it's the constructors fault. and usually he's going to correct the thing. bad example but perhabs it's somewhat understandable. the point: fails your god in "correcting errors"?

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..like we dont understand why certain things happen.
basicly i just need to know that there is a reason why things happen. trying to understand is another point, basicly it's in our nature. ("godgiven" in your point of view?)


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The raper can conquere his hate and lust, if he just simply asks.

Ok, I make it sound easy. Its not. It takes prayer, time, devotion, and a strong will, trust, and faith in God. Sort of like stopping an addiction to a drug, or alcohol.

"rapers" are not necessaryly addicted or do it because of hate or something. some of them are just respectless asshats doing "it" for fun or whatever. they dont even think about that what they do is something "wrong". also, raping other women/men is not a "disease".


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Old 05-02-2004, 12:02 PM   #328
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usually, if someone constructs a car, and he made the breaks like too weak or something, it's the constructors fault. and usually he's going to correct the thing. bad example but perhabs it's somewhat understandable. the point: fails your god in "correcting errors"?
Yes, but if it were built to be perfect and run amazingly, and the owner decides to put sugar in the gas tank. the sugar is sin and we are the owners of the car that the constuctor (God) made. You kind of see the point i'm making. WE destroyed the perfect place and relationship that we had with God.
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I feel a whole lot safer at night knowing God would rather have his book be unspoilled, than to make sure we all wouldn't be killed or raped.
Well God destroyed all evil man in the Flood, and only found Noah and his family to be righteous. God lifted up Noah and kept him safe in the ark till the floods stopped, then he was to inhabit the earth. God did that to start over the world and make all the evil ones be gone. Would you have him do it again to get all the rapists, murderers, and evil people out of this world? So you could sleep at night?
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basicly i just need to know that there is a reason why things happen. trying to understand is another point, basicly it's in our nature. ("godgiven" in your point of view?)
There is a reason, it's called the will of God. There is a purpose to every action that we make. His will whatever it may be is what is going to happen, and what needs to happen to glorify God. I can't see God's will, no one can. Be I know that there is a point to my life, and that it works with Gods will. Does that help?


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Old 05-02-2004, 02:03 PM   #329
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Quote:
Originally posted by Feanaro
Well God destroyed all evil man in the Flood, and only found Noah and his family to be righteous. God lifted up Noah and kept him safe in the ark till the floods stopped, then he was to inhabit the earth. God did that to start over the world and make all the evil ones be gone. Would you have him do it again to get all the rapists, murderers, and evil people out of this world? So you could sleep at night?
so... where'd these new evil men come from? Noah? maybe he banged a sheep?

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Originally posted by Feanaro
There is a reason, it's called the will of God. There is a purpose to every action that we make. His will whatever it may be is what is going to happen, and what needs to happen to glorify God. I can't see God's will, no one can. Be I know that there is a point to my life, and that it works with Gods will. Does that help?
Cop out.
why is it that god's will is to only interfere in these "miracles" but when something can be done to benefit mankind on the whole, he cannot interfere with mortals?

I prefer to live to my will, and not to some invisible man in the sky, with a ego the size of... well, the sky.

My will is to please everyone, not possible, but it's a goal I feel is good and proper.


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I am life without limit.”
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Old 05-02-2004, 03:35 PM   #330
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Well, one of Noah's sons did look apon his naked body in lust, it says...People become corrupt really easily, huh?
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Old 05-02-2004, 05:40 PM   #331
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Originally posted by Feanaro
Yes, but if it were built to be perfect and run amazingly, and the owner decides to put sugar in the gas tank. the sugar is sin and we are the owners of the car that the constuctor (God) made.
that is not following my analogy: the constructor ("god") made the car (us).

but still one can say that we "put sugar in our tanks" by not "following" god. so we "run" ourselfes the wrong way.

as a constructor, i guess, i would try to make a "sugar resistant" car.


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You kind of see the point i'm making. WE destroyed the perfect place and relationship that we had with God.
but if your god made us, why should we be responsible for not being "perfect" in his eyes (read: we tend to "sin")? if he dont likes the way we "act" and he made us, why dont "repair" it instead of "complaining" about it with calling it a sin?
and it must be a mistake in his "creation", if he wasnt doing it on purpose. but if he did it on purpose, then he should not complain about us.


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Old 05-02-2004, 11:21 PM   #332
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Originally posted by RayJones
...but if your god made us, why should we be responsible for not being "perfect" in his eyes (read: we tend to "sin")? if he dont likes the way we "act" and he made us, why dont "repair" it instead of "complaining" about it with calling it a sin?...
Because there is no god.
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Old 05-03-2004, 01:09 PM   #333
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He ofcourse means: i BELIEVE there is no god. And me neither. I thought this thread was about same sex marriage? Has it drifted away from it's original topic?
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Old 05-03-2004, 02:34 PM   #334
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Originally posted by Doomgiver
He ofcourse means: i BELIEVE there is no god. And me neither. I thought this thread was about same sex marriage? Has it drifted away from it's original topic?
All threads in the Senate tend to drift to a debate over wheter God exists, or politics



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Old 05-03-2004, 03:39 PM   #335
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it does not matter if there is (a?) "god" or not.

why?

lets say there is "god". lets say he made us. the way we are. violent, failable, curious, thinking, weak, breathing, lying, crying, hunting, fighting, gay and what not. and what is he doing? "he" is whining about it like a little girl instead of doing really something about it. gay is sin? "degay" mankind or deal with it.

and he (if existing) doesnt lives my life. he doesnt cares if my friends are raped and murdered. he doesnt cares if some freak aims a gun at my face. he isnt the one taking care of my daughter. and this is only my life and it's concerns, and there are millions more. plus the non human ones.
and what again shall i do? i should complete care about this "typee", who seems to be completely ignoring me and all that he has assumingly done is he "made" me (us, the lifeforms, the earth, plantes, the universe)?

..

so probably we and our world are "godmade". but its nothing more than this. we were put into the "game" and thats it.
and if "god" wants anything from me, then he should come and say it to my face.
otherwise i cant be bothered to believe anything i cant prove myself.
otherwise i cant be bothered to live my life another way than i find to be appropriate. i dont need anyone to tell me that killing, stealing and whatnot are "wrong"!

you are saying we arent able to understand god? man, we havent got the slightest idea whats the beginning of it all. all the theories and religions (which are of course only theories, too) still can be wrong at the same time. until i have a proof i dont believe anything. i rather tend to think about the most possible way. also, the more interesting question isnt "who" made the universe and stuff, it is "how" is it made. so why stick to "things" which are highly "untestable" if there are so many answerable (but still pretty tricky) questions.



back on topic:

perhabs should gays leave "christians" alone and should live happy together without being married. what does it mean anyways?
i do the same as the curch. only the other way around. i dont marry because i dont think it is right to make it the religious way.

there. in your face, religion.

ps. no offence intended. just some easy going "sunday-thoughts"



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Old 05-03-2004, 07:27 PM   #336
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OK I've only seen the first and last pages of this debate, so forgive me if I'm somewhat behind, but here's my thoughts on all this:
I belive that gay/lesbian marrigaes should be allowed becuase people should be allowed such freedoms. However

(WARNING EXPLICIT STUFF COMING UP)

I find the thought of someone's d*ck coming through my you-know-what very disgusting, much less shooting out some kind of sticky whitish liquid. The though of it just puts me off.

And I'll post some more on that whole "god" thing that you guys have changed the subject to later on


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Old 05-03-2004, 08:04 PM   #337
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Originally posted by Crazy_dog no.3
I find the thought of someone's d*ck coming through my you-know-what very disgusting, much less shooting out some kind of sticky whitish liquid. The though of it just puts me off.
I don't want anything coming up there myself but I doubt any gay man will want to stick it up my straight ***.

Still, you do realize there are other ways for gay men/lesbians to have relations?

And the sticky whitish liquid does come out of you too you know?


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Old 05-03-2004, 10:16 PM   #338
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Well, yes, you are responsible if the son is under 18. The real question is, what age to do we have to get to become responsible for ourselves?
When you know its a sin, like i said somewhere (maybe this thread, or another, all i know is i said it recently) If i lie and dont know, im ok. If I find out that lying is wrong, then im in trouble, and should repent. If I never find out that lying is wrong, then I never am held responsible.... At least *I THINK* thats how its


Quote:
lets say there is "god". lets say he made us. the way we are. violent, failable, curious, thinking, weak, breathing, lying, crying, hunting, fighting, gay and what not. and what is he doing? "he" is whining about it like a little girl instead of doing really something about it. gay is sin? "degay" mankind or deal with it.

and he (if existing) doesnt lives my life. he doesnt cares if my friends are raped and murdered. he doesnt cares if some freak aims a gun at my face. he isnt the one taking care of my daughter. and this is only my life and it's concerns, and there are millions more. plus the non human ones.
and what again shall i do? i should complete care about this "typee", who seems to be completely ignoring me and all that he has assumingly done is he "made" me (us, the lifeforms, the earth, plantes, the universe)?

But, your failing to realise, your ignoring HIM! You wont get involved in with. If you said something like that to your Dad, would your dad be really happy with you?

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you are saying we arent able to understand god?
Im saying you cant understand all of Him.

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All threads in the Senate tend to drift to a debate over wheter God exists, or politics

Yeah... its pretty crazy. Maybe thats the meaning of the whole debate. Maybe thats THE debate. Now, we should debate over what we should debate about.

Quote:
I find the thought of someone's d*ck coming through my you-know-what very disgusting, much less shooting out some kind of sticky whitish liquid. The though of it just puts me off.
Wow. I was wondering how long it would be before someone said something like that...............


God gave us free will. When something has free will, you cant control it, unless you take aways it free will, but that ultimatly defeats the purpose of that 'creation' (people) having free will. Its not free will unless we can do whatever we want. And we dont we? We are only limited by ourselves (mostly) This includes everyone, not just you. It includes the murderers, theives, adulterers, gays.. whatever, ALL of them. Adam and Eve had free will. They could do what they want. They did not, however, have sin in them yet. It was when THEY chose to eat the apple, that they had sin. Perhaps it wasnt that the tree itself was sinful, but that they disobeyed God. I could be wrong.



God has set up a way of correcting this. But, considering you have free will, you have to actually want this, and go and take it.

Think about it like this: Remember the Blaster worm? Microsoft offered a patch, they didnt force you to get the patch. You had to go to www.mircosoft.com and get it yourself. When you got the patch, you were safe.



Ok, lets study this. First we need to know what happend.
  • God made the world, animals, etc. But, the difference between people and animals was, He breathed life into man. I think this means, we could reason (im not really sure) Also remember that He made man in the image and likness of Himself.
  • The human race became evil. God was sorry He made man. BUT, there was one man who stood out: Noah. He told Noah that there was a flood coming, and him and his family would be spared. How? Noah had to make a boat. A [i]big[/b] boat. The Ark. Think about it, God told Noah to build a huge boat, in the middle of the desert (probably). Now, **My Personal Theory** is that this was when Pangea was 'the world' umm.. if you know what I mean. So, God called, Noah obeyed. People knew the flood was coming, although they didnt believe it. They had the chance to stop sinning, instead, they made fun of Noah. The flood started. Notice, the Bible says God closed the door. Why? The people were panacking, they were drowning. God knew that Noah would have just said, ok, come on in. But God knew that would defeat the purpose. After the flood, Noah offered sacrifices to God, and God said floods will never desdtroy all life on earth again. After that, Noahs sons split up, and went there own ways (I assume) and built several different cities. Ham was the father of Canaan. Ham was the one who was cursed for looking at his fathers naked body.
  • Next, the tower of Babel. Langauges are confused. I also heard that this might have been when nationalites (like skin color) first started. I also heard that maybe Adam and Eve had all the children with different colors.
  • **Skipped a bit** There was a man named Abraham. He, and his wife, always wanted a Son. They became old, and were disapointed that everything they owned would be inherited by there servant. So, Abrahams wife said, have sex with the servant and have a son. So, (i think reluctantly) he did. The sons name was Ishmael, father of the middle eastern people, i think. God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as many as the stars. He also promised that he would own a good land. (I think it was the land he was in at that time, but he was a stranger there). Next thing you know he had a son, named Issac, a loong time later, God had fullfilled the first promise. There were lots of descendants, but the problem was they were oppressed in Egypt. Moses, son of Hebrew slaves, was raised in the Egyptain Palace as a prince. One day he saw a Hebrew slave being beaten by an Egyptain task master. Moses then killed the task manager, to save the slave. He then ran away to midian, where he had a wife and kids.
  • In Midian God called Moses. He presented himself to him as a burning bush. Moses was attracted to the bush when he saw it was on fire, but not burning.
  • He approached, and God told him he was to free the slaves in Egypt. Moses didnt want to (who would want to go against his 'egyptain brother' who was also known as pharoh at that time? Moses also suffered from a speach problem (probably a speech impediment; he couldnt talk properly) God had Aaron help Moses. With God's miracles, they eventaully got the egyptains to release the Israelits, after the death of the pharohs own son. (keep in mind a large ammount of details were left out of this)
  • Ok, now then. Whats right and wrong? This is where we get into the laws. While in the desert, God called Moses up a mountain (forgot its name) and Moses was up there so long, that the people thought he was dead. So, they took there gold, and all the treasures of Egypt, and melted them down, and made an Idol, called the golden calf. While on the mountain, God gave Moses the 10 Commandments, on 2 stone tablets. Moses went down the mountain, and was upset by the people's actions, so updset that he smashed the tablets.
  • God made Moses some more stone tablets, and finally, after a while, they reached the Promised Land, the land that was promised to Abraham. God had now kept his promise. God appointed judges to rule the people (instead of a single monarch)
  • The people, wanting to blend in with the other nations, wanted a monarch; a single king to rule Israel. God didnt want to, but granted there wishes. He appointed Saul as king of Israel.
  • One day, Isreal was going to war with the phillistines. They (The phillistines) had a champion warrior named Goliath. Goliath said, send a man to fight me if I win you will be our slaves, If you win, then we are your slaves. Everyone was scared, except a sheperd boy, name David. David had already killed a bear to protect his sheep. One day his dad, Jesse, sent David to the battle feild with food for his brothers. Thats when David found out about Goliath, and with Saul's pemissions, and God's help, David defeated Goliath. After time went on, Saul became jealous of David. So Jealous, he wanted him dead, and tried to kill him, repeatedly. Several times David had the chance to kill Saul, but didnt. Eventually, David became King of Isreal himself. God promised David as long as his descendants kept God's agreement, one of Davids descendants would always be on the throne.
  • Time passed. People had to offer sacrifices to pay for there sins. (thats the way it had always been) so.. after a while, it was just something people did, and it didnt mean anything to them. There was a prophecy of a Massiah. Eventaully the Messiah was born of the virgin Mary, and his name was Jesus.
  • Jesus was a descendant of David just.. not on the throne. He was a carpenter. The thing about Jesus was, was that He was perfect. After all, He was the Son of God. The Angel had appeared to Mary and said that she would have a Son, and his name was Jesus. God's holy spirit, conceived Jesus in the womb (or something like that) and Jesus was born of a virgin. He was perfect. The Son of God. John was a preacher, also Jesus' cousine, who had been baptising people and preaching of the massiah's coming. He baptised Jesus, and the Jesus began his teaching. Through this, we know that we must be baptised. After Jesus was baptised a dove came from the sky, and the people heard a voice that said 'this is my Son, whome I love' Jesus picked up followers, like Peter, James, and Judas. Jesus challenged the old ways of thinking, and the pharsies (the teachers of the law of Moses) were not happy. 'They talked the talk, but couldnt/wouldnt walk the walk.' They wanted Jesus dead. They knew they couldnt do anything to Jesus in front of the people, because that would start a riot. They had to get this right. Jesus taught of new ways, and changed the old laws. He improved them. He also backed himself up through his many miracles, like healing the blind, crippled, and paralysed. He casted out demons, and walked on water. He even raised people from the dead.
  • Soon, the time for the passover meal came. One of Jesus' followers, Judas, had been to see the pharasies, and other religious leaders who wanted Jesus taken out for good. He was bribed into betraying Jesus. Jesus' last meal was the passover meal. During the meal Jesus revealed that someone would betray him soon. The desciples argued about this. None of them wanted to be the one who betrayed there master. Jesus said Judas was the one. Judas then left the room. Jesus and his apostles then left, and went to the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus knew it would be His last night alive. It was night-time, maybe 10:00 PM. Jesus knew what was coming for Him, He knew his fate. He prayed that if it was possible that God would spare him from this fate, if there was just some other way, but ultimatly that it was God's Will that was done. Researches have found that Jesus could have escaped: A back area was open for him to leave. But He didnt. The soldiers came. They would know who Jesus was, because He would kiss him. Judas approached Jesus, and Jesus said do what you have to do. So, Judas kissed him, and they arrested Jesus. Over that night, Jesus would be tortured. They beat him, and they whipped him. By the end of it, no one could really recognise him. You could see his organs inside of him. His skin was literally hanging off Him. On top of that, He was made to carry His own cross. Jesus was perfect. There was NO sin. An animal sacrifice was used in the past to make up for our sins. But now, Jesus, the Son of God, the most perfect human/god that ever lived, was being sacrificed for us. Even on the cross Jesus stuck to his own teaching and forgave the very people who were mocking Him as He died.
  • Now, it would be sort of meaningless if He just died, and that was the end, right? So, after three days, Jesus rose from the dead fullfilling the prophecy. He told His desciples to spread the Word about Him. He sent them a special helper, called the Holy Spirit, since Jesus could no longer remain with them in person any more. After 40 days Jesus ascended into Heaven.

Now then, like I said, God has made a way for us to get out of this. He hasnt just left us hanging. That way is through His Son, Jesus Christ. Accept him, and your sins shall be forgotten. Its a choice you have to make, like the Mircrosoft patch. You download it, your safe, you accept Christ, your good to go. Its free. God will guide you. So, all you have to do is keep following Him.


BTW, about the editing, my PC started messing up and stuff, so I just hit submit, and restarted my PC, came back, and edited this post. If any info is wrong, someone tell me, please. Keep in mind I left out details, its long enough!

Edit 2: man.. I gotta quit putting in un-needed commas....

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Old 05-03-2004, 10:54 PM   #339
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The thing about the Bible is that its just a bunch of stories thrown together. STORIES. Just because the Bible SAYS its true doesn't mean squat. I could write a book about how there is a ghost in my PS2 and say it was true. Does it make it true? Hell no it don't make it true. But since none of you are here, it has to be true, right? No. So why is the Bible any different? Because people need something to believe in, and the Bible tells them what they want to hear. Its like when you tell a child you'll give him candy if he behaves. The child likes candy, so he obeys and is good. The Bible tells people they'll have infinite bliss if they're good, and so those who need that comfort OBEY.
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Old 05-04-2004, 12:33 AM   #340
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But, your failing to realise, your ignoring HIM! You wont get involved in with. If you said something like that to your Dad, would your dad be really happy with you?
no my dad wouldn't be happy, but I'm his son, and no matter how much of an asshead he thinks I am, he'll always be there for me, to protect me, and support me.


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Old 05-04-2004, 02:42 AM   #341
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It is simply not natural. In this instance, the animals are proving to be more intelligent than man. When's the last time you saw a homosexual dog, cat, cow, ect. If the animals respect God's laws (or the laws of Nature, if you prefer) then why shouldn't man?


I've got a bad feeling about this...
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Old 05-04-2004, 04:22 AM   #342
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Quote:
Originally posted by Crazy_dog no.3

I find the thought of someone's d*ck coming through my you-know-what very disgusting, much less shooting out some kind of sticky whitish liquid. The though of it just puts me off.
firstly i must not come through your we-know-what, heck you sure have preferances too, secondly this is not an unusual sexual practice for heterosexual couples so it is not "something gay", thirdly there are way more ways to "make love" that this one. and that, too, goes for both, straight and gays.

do you want somebody to tell you how to "do it"?

..
(wait. what an interesting idea.. *calls girlfriend* .. )

and whats so bad about "the fluid"? this is something i dont understand anyways. most of the guys i know would like to put it in some girls err.. whereever. but when it comes to the point that they must deal with it themselves (even if it's their own "stuff") they are all like eewwww.

ronbothers: we're already over the point of "gay" animals. it is observable anywhere in the "animals world".
and being gay has nothing to do with being not intelligent. and it's not "unnatural". unnatural is that humans sit in front of computers. natural is that they have to go to the toilet.
one usually cannot "decide" what he likes or not. it's basicly based on ones experiences and knowledge. can you decide to like something? i dont think so. it's more that you have a "feeling" about it and then say yes, i like it. or no, i dont. .. isnt it like that?
sure, a logical conclusion would be, that one, based on his/her experiences and knowledge comes to the point to say "i dont like gays." .. it's freedom of opinion and it's ok. but it's never ok to be complete ignorant about something wether one "likes" it or not. pauschalities arent doing any better.

and animals dont respect "god's laws", man they dont even have a clue about the crazy stuff we make up. what they follow are "life's laws".


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Old 05-04-2004, 10:50 AM   #343
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Well, one of Noah's sons did look apon his naked body in lust, it says...People become corrupt really easily, huh?
that makes no sense, if god wanted to wipe the slate clean, and restart humanity pure, then with his infinite knowledge and such, he should have known noah's son would do that, and become "corrupt". So if he is really all powerful and all knowing, couldn't he have done something to make sure his plan of purification works? I mean, to me it seems pointless that he slaughtered all those people in a flood, only to not let it work.


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Old 05-04-2004, 11:51 AM   #344
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Now then, like I said, God has made a way for us to get out of this. He hasnt just left us hanging. That way is through His Son, Jesus Christ. Accept him, and your sins shall be forgotten.
that is complete out of my range.
which sins?
and who should why forget them?
what's the point?

Quote:
Its a choice you have to make, like the Mircrosoft patch. You download it, your safe, you accept Christ, your good to go. Its free. God will guide you. So, all you have to do is keep following Him.
it's not that i want to destroy your bubble, but microsoft patches are not necessarily safe.
and secondly who should why guide me? why wants *everyone* to be guided? i dont get this. we dont have a brain to be *guided*. sure, there are rules to be followed, but that has nothing to do with guidance.


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Old 05-04-2004, 03:29 PM   #345
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Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones


and animals dont respect "god's laws", man they dont even have a clue about the crazy stuff we make up. what they follow are "life's laws".
As I said:"(or the laws of Nature if you prefer)"


I've got a bad feeling about this...
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Old 05-04-2004, 03:47 PM   #346
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Quote:
Originally posted by ronbrothers
It is simply not natural. In this instance, the animals are proving to be more intelligent than man. When's the last time you saw a homosexual dog, cat, cow, ect. If the animals respect God's laws (or the laws of Nature, if you prefer) then why shouldn't man?
Actually, homosexuality is a common practice among animals.

Homosexuality is proven at about 300 different animal species, everything from monkeys to flamingoes to sheep. The fact that one out of ten male sheep prefer other male sheep is quite a pain for sheep breeders.

Or I could pull in that at japanese makaka apes, each female has in average 7 sex partners in their breeding period. Half of those are other females.

(Source: Science Illustrated 15/2003)


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Old 05-04-2004, 04:48 PM   #347
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Quote:
Originally posted by ronbrothers
As I said:"(or the laws of Nature if you prefer)"
oooops.
indeed, both could be considered the same.

but see above post though.


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Old 05-05-2004, 12:39 AM   #348
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Quote:
Originally posted by ronbrothers
When's the last time you saw a homosexual dog, cat, cow, ect.
You obviously didn't read the entire thread.... there was a series of posts that discussed that very thing and pointed out that homosexuality and bisexuality among animals is not uncommon, therefore the "it's not natural" argument holds no weight.

That argument is merely an ethnocentric perspective, in the sense that "ethnocentrism" refers to the evaluaton of a foreign culture by application of one's own culture as the standard for comparison.

The only argument that approaches validity in regards to homosexual behavior/lifestyle is the religious one, but even this one falls short.

The religious argument relies on the epigraphical remains of long dead cultures who relied on superstition to guide their day-to-day activities. I see no more reason to accept this ancient doctrine as a means to deny rights to a large portion of society than I do that same doctrine's decree that one who violates the sabbath should be stoned to death (Numbers 15:32-36).


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Old 05-05-2004, 06:35 AM   #349
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you mean they don't enforce the laws about stoning fornicators, adulterers and those that work on the sabbath in the US?

That seems like a selective interpretation of the bible to me...



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Old 05-14-2004, 10:58 PM   #350
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[quote]It is simply not natural. In this instance, the animals are proving to be more intelligent than man. When's the last time you saw a homosexual dog, cat, cow, ect. If the animals respect God's laws (or the laws of Nature, if you prefer) then why shouldn't man?[quote]
So do you hate everything that doesn't "fit into" nature? Funny how you're typing messages over the Internet on a computer, then . They didn't evolve from calculators growing on calculator bushes, you know.

Quote:
I find the thought of someone's d*ck coming through my you-know-what very disgusting, much less shooting out some kind of sticky whitish liquid. The though of it just puts me off.
Completely off-topic.
I don't eat sausages anymore, because while they are good, I don't like eating containers for urine and solid waste (bowels wrapped in bladders).

As a virgin, I find the concept of heterosexual sex disturbing as well as any other form of sex between two people.

And finally, I can't say I like rap.

But is there really a point? Can I say that people who eat sausages and rap and have sex shouldn't marry?

It's against christian code, my butt. Then explain how pedophiles, rapists, murderers, swindlers, and so on get married. But I guess that's okay as long as they're not gay...

Eagle

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Old 05-15-2004, 03:27 AM   #351
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Since religion seems to be the topic of homosexuality and gay marriage here...

Homosexuality is mentioned in three places in the Bible.

The book of Leviticus. Homosexuality is described as "an abomination." However, it is also among a list of other ridiculous "abominations," such as shellfish, shaving, and mixed fabrics. I think it's safe to say that any logical God would have no problem with any of the three, and so this casts huge problems on the divine reliability of the condemnation of homosexuality based on Levitican law.

Corinthians seems to mention it. However, I see a big problem here....

In the original translations, "homosexual offender" and "male prostitute" was not included. The word "effeminate" was present, though. This roughly translates to "wimp." However, many modern versions circulate verses that say just that!

Finally, there is the book of Romans, in which Paul states ...

Quote:
1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

1:26
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

1:27
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Read that carefully, now. Paul is talking about pagan rituals! At the time, many pagan rituals included the process of men and women "switching" off. That's what he's condemning.



Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not. But to me, there's enough question there to basically say: We can't know for sure what the Christian God really wants, because it's not clear. Therefore, we cannot make laws according to that (aside from the fact that it would be totally unfair to atheists, deists, agnostics, muslims, hindus, and any other non-christian religion).


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Old 05-15-2004, 08:40 AM   #352
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interesting, i wish i had the time to research this stuff in more detail. It does show the problem of attemoting to interpret the meaning of god from an imperfect source written by men and translated by men.

What is up with mixed fabrics?



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Old 05-16-2004, 03:02 PM   #353
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Let's drop religion. Please.

This is not a thread for discussing God's view on homosexuality. This is a thread for discussing whether or not a certain minority group should be given a certain right.

Either way, religion has already been debated to death in these forums.

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Old 05-17-2004, 02:59 AM   #354
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It would be great to drop religion, Dagobahn, but most of the people against it say 'My religion tells me its bad, so I listen to it'.

Know what religion has told me recently? Grope small children, so says the Catholics.
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:55 AM   #355
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was there anything in the bible that said preists had to be celibate? or was that another iffy interpretation that was added in later on?

sorry DE



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Old 05-20-2004, 05:06 AM   #356
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I think they added the no sex thing later, but if you need the bible to tell you to leave children alone...
Thats it I'm unsubscribing from this topic...
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Old 05-20-2004, 07:30 AM   #357
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sigh. what i was suggesting was that it must be the celibate laws and lifestyle that drives a lot of these preists to do this sort of thing. After all, denying your natural urges for your whole life can't be healthy.
(either that or there is something in the worship of god that either turns people into peadophiles or attracts them, which seems unlikely. )

This should be a very good lesson to those advocating that those who are born with homosexual tendancies should just abstain...

Since there is no commandment to preists to be celibate in the bible it is just another of those weird things that has become institutionalised in the church, and no-one can even really remember why.



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Old 05-25-2004, 08:25 AM   #358
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The lot of you anti-Gays need more contact with just that. Phobias are cured that way, you know.

Secondly, I doubt many of you have any idea how many people are actually bisexual.


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Old 05-28-2004, 05:40 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kain
It would be great to drop religion, Dagobahn, but most of the people against it say 'My religion tells me its bad, so I listen to it'.

Know what religion has told me recently? Grope small children, so says the Catholics.
Now that's flame bait if I ever heard it!

The Catholic Church has CONDEMNED the behavior of those priests and ministers who have done that, so it's nothing but trolling really.

I have yet to read pages 2-8 (loooong thread, came late) but a couple of things.

Hitler forced people to become Christian??? I never heard that before. I know that many Jews BECAME CHRISTIAN (or pretended to) in order to avoid being arrested (Pius XII was credited with issuing thousands of false baptismal certificates for example), so I guess in a sense they were "forced" to become Christian. Sadly, this didn't save many of those people because the Nazis considered Jews to be a "race" rather than just a religion (the race/religion issue of Judaism could fill entire books).

Also, what was up with the Bible prohibiting the eating of fish? I think people meant to say "pork." Because the Old Testament doesn't prohibit the eating of "fish" per se (though certain types of sea creatures are forbidden for the Israelites to eat).

It's true that no religious body follows the entire Bible. It's simply impossible! The way that most Christians "get around this problem" is by demonstrating that there was an "Old Covenant" (with Abraham & Moses) which had certain rules and a "New Covenant" (the one instituted by Jesus) which has different rules. The trouble is when people cite the Old Covenant Rules to prove something that they aren't following under the New Covenant.

Jesus doesn't outright condemn homosexuality, however he does condemn lust and infidelity. His Apostles urge their disciples to avoid all sexual impurity and scandal.

So the interpretation has been that homosexuality fits into that.

If homosexuals were married and monogamus in loving households that would negate those objections.

However still most Christians, Jews, etc would say that God created Man & Woman (ie: made genders) for the purpose of the bonds of marriage (with the end result being procreation, although the bonding of sexual love is not wrong but there to strengthen marriage) and thus homosexual marriage simply isn't what was intended by God. People have the freedom to sin, but they ought to choose not to, in other words.

But yes, apart from the religious arguments, it's very hard to argue against homosexual marriage, but as others pointed out, why should we also disallow other kinds of marriage such as polygamy or close relatives being married or even interspecies marriages?

Marriage is a social instutition (Christians would say a religious instutitution, but of course there are also civil secular marriage rules that we're following even if we're not religious in this country) and so it's based on what the LAW SAYS which is (suppposed to be) what the consensus of rational people believe.

Homosexual sex (as it can only be practiced) has a higher chance of spreading certain STD's, but then those practices (I won't go into detail here) can also be practiced by heterosexuals. Likewise STD's are spread through promiscuity, which is a problem for bisexuals and heterosexuals not just homosexuals.

A complex issue.


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