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Old 02-13-2004, 10:01 PM   #1
Michael111
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the bible = the tree of the knowledge of good and evil () Jesus = the tree of life

The bible

It is a book containing the knowledge of good and evil.

The forbidden fruit was not an apple. The fruit of a tree is also paper. And upon the pages of the bible is the knowledge of good and evil. The bible is poisoned with the knowledge of evil.

Ritualistic animal sacrifices, ceremonies incorporating the blood of dead animals, superstitious numbers, curses, evil spirits, dark prophecies... all in the bible.

Plotting, conspiracy, mass-murder, betrayal, genocide, slavery, suffering, wars... all in the bible.

A book is not 'Holy' if it contains the knowledge of evil, Satan, the devil, demons...

It is darkness. It is contaminated. It is unclean. It is poison.

Religion is the church of the poison mind. Minds poisoned by the knowledge of evil. People are deceived by religion.

The kingdom of God is within us all. Not within the pages of a book containing the knowledge of evil. I have recently shut it for good. I will not touch, nor taste of it again.

Because of Jesus Christ, I'm back in the land of the living. I've torn off my fig-leaf, and am returning to Eden. I am who God made me to be. The shame, guilt, and confusion is past-tense.

Thank You Jesus.

The Tree of Life = Jesus Christ

Eat freely from this tree and be saved.


------------------------


"Imagine" - John Lennon

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.


Jesus is the answer!

Michael111

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Old 02-13-2004, 10:38 PM   #2
Reborn Outcast
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Well I'm a Christian, and honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about. The Bible poisoned by evil? The Bible has those stories in them in order to teach about why evil is bad.

But yes, I agree with Jed, are you trying to convert people to your "religion?"
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Old 02-13-2004, 11:05 PM   #3
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All you need is Faith, not a book. I remember that throughout history Roman Catholics when they read from their Latin Bibles, translate it differently to manipulate the people, and of course the people believed them. You can truly get by with Faith alone.

Reborn he is making an analogy.

But the Bible has a lot to offer, simply shutting it out of your system sounds arrogant to me. But whatever you feel is necessary is fine by me.


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Old 02-14-2004, 12:41 AM   #4
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Without evil we would have no good, without the bible to point that evil out to us, what would we know as truth? you cant have black without white my friend, you cant have good without evil.

Man sinned, evil was in the world, God sent Jesus christ into the world, so we may have a standard to have and a basis of truth.
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Old 02-14-2004, 01:17 AM   #5
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I'm sure there is a point to this thread somewhere. Where, I dunno, but in the meantime I can see this turning into a deep and meaningful, so I'm gonna stick it in the Chambers.


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Old 02-14-2004, 01:38 AM   #6
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Well, personally, I agree with him.

I think people get too caught up in the methods of religion rather than just let it happen, if you will...

It's about the feeling, not some dead guy and a book.

Though, I shall now thwap you for telling me I'm not to be saved otherwise.

*thwap*
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Old 02-14-2004, 02:02 AM   #7
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*NOTE* These are my own beliefs on the matter. I am not trying to convert anyone, just stating my point of view.

How can you have faith in Jesus and say you aren't part of a religion? The very fact that you do spiritually believe in something makes it a religion. Besides, how are you going to believe in Jesus if you reject the only work that has explained Him? How would you know that Jesus is good if you think the very work that says so is tripe?

Moreover, without the Bible, how can you be convinced that Jesus is the only way to salvation? Mohammed and Buhdda are said to have taught similar values and lessons that Jesus did. Yet how did you come to the conclusion that Jesus of the Bible is the way to salvation rather than Mohammed of the Koran or Buhdda of the Buhddist spiritual writings? Besides, how would we have ever known that Jesus even existed if not for the Bible? Dedicated monks from the Middle Ages worked tirelessly to write copies of the Bible so its teachings would not be lost. If not for their efforts, we would have forgotton Jesus completely.

Believing in Jesus and not the Bible is akin to believing in food but not water. We need both for our physical well-being. Likewise, we need both Jesus and the Bible for our spiritual well-being. Yes, the Bible does cover great tragedies and sorrow, but it does not glorify them. The evil did not originate from the Bible; it came from Satan. The Bible shows evil in order to warn us not to follow the path of the wicked and all the bad that comes from it. But the Bible shows great triumphs and hope, too. It promises eternal salvation and happiness for all those who believe in both Jesus Christ and the Bible's teachings. The only way we know all this is because the Bible has told us. Without the Bible, we would have known nothing of salvation.


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Old 02-14-2004, 03:29 AM   #8
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Old 02-14-2004, 03:59 AM   #9
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I consider most Asain religions completely different than Christianity. Why? Because they teach you how to find your inner self(but what do you really gain from that other than the "oh I feel smart" feeling?). Christianity is about finding Christ.


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Old 02-14-2004, 04:18 AM   #10
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to be honest I respect Buddhism....and Asian religions in general....more than Christianity...and related religions....because, Christianity seems to focus on the blind worshiping of something...or someone...that....for all we know doesn't exist....and Buddhism....is something that focuses more on yourself....to find inner peace....I mean....isn't that what everyone wants?
it seemed like a forbidden idea from people who, for centuries had worshiped a God....


As far as finding a "Christ"...I never understood that.
the more people tried to explain it the more frustrated I got.
it simply does not make any sense to me.

I mean I suppose its a nice feeling, to seemingly blindly assume...that we are saved...from hell....which....obviously no one wants to burn in hell....but what’s to say there even is a hell?
too much doesn't seem to add up for me, hence, I abandoned religion altogether.


for all I know, religion is simply a tool used over the centuries to control the masses.....and although I don't want to burn in hell, I have decided there is no hell.
because where is the fact?
Where is the proof?
faith is all.... people who follow any religion....have.
we never see it with our own eyes....we are told it...and we believe it....doesn't it seem a bit....suspicious??


At all?


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Old 02-14-2004, 06:25 AM   #11
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Believing in Jesus and not the Bible is akin to believing in food but not water. We need both for our physical well-being. Likewise, we need both Jesus and the Bible for our spiritual well-being. Yes, the Bible does cover great tragedies and sorrow, but it does not glorify them. The evil did not originate from the Bible; it came from Satan. The Bible shows evil in order to warn us not to follow the path of the wicked and all the bad that comes from it. But the Bible shows great triumphs and hope, too. It promises eternal salvation and happiness for all those who believe in both Jesus Christ and the Bible's teachings. The only way we know all this is because the Bible has told us. Without the Bible, we would have known nothing of salvation.
I wholeheartedly agree.

I don't know what's going on with Michael111, but that first post definitely wierded me out.

After all, how can someone believe in Jesus & reject the Bible when the Bible is the book that tells us about His life?


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Old 02-14-2004, 07:59 AM   #12
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It sounds like an over reaction to me. Hey Mike you got to suffer the evil to understand the good. There's no getting around it because if you refuse the evil that is contained in the bible how will you ever be capable of dealing with it in the real world when it rises right in front of you. It's an interesting thread though leads to good thoughts.


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Old 02-14-2004, 11:18 AM   #13
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Wow, Michael111, thats gotta be the heaviest first post in history. My first post was like "I like Star Wars, yeaaaah !!!"

As much as I enjoy scholarly debate, religion is a topic I am loathe to discuss because many have such an emotional perception of religion(understably so, I guess). In the end it is inevitably becomes difficult (to the point of impossible) to have a *rational* discussion about it...

*goes back to start "I like Star Wars!! Yeeaah !!! Do you ?!!" thread*

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Old 02-15-2004, 07:48 AM   #14
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Originally posted by Neverhoodian
Moreover, without the Bible, how can you be convinced that Jesus is the only way to salvation? Mohammed and Buhdda are said to have taught similar values and lessons that Jesus did. Yet how did you come to the conclusion that Jesus of the Bible is the way to salvation rather than Mohammed of the Koran or Buhdda of the Buhddist spiritual writings? Besides, how would we have ever known that Jesus even existed if not for the Bible? Dedicated monks from the Middle Ages worked tirelessly to write copies of the Bible so its teachings would not be lost. If not for their efforts, we would have forgotton Jesus completely.
Buddah or Mohammed never died for my screw ups... last I checked,
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Old 02-15-2004, 05:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZDawg
Buddah or Mohammed never died for my screw ups... last I checked,
Oh yeah, instead they taught that you have to work to fix your sins.



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Old 02-16-2004, 07:07 AM   #16
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Which makes no sense, as we read basicly (half) of the same bible, and we are saved by grace, not good deeds or works.
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Old 02-16-2004, 09:13 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZDawg
Which makes no sense, as we read basicly (half) of the same bible, and we are saved by grace, not good deeds or works.
1. grace does not feed me nor does it keep me warm and healthy. grace doesnt keeps me alive, work (or it's results) does.
2. grace saves us from what? hunger? pain? cold? death? desease?


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Old 02-16-2004, 10:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
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2. grace saves us from what? hunger? pain? cold? death? desease?
Falling on your face. Oh Divine Grace? It saves you from being damned by all these over-zealous religious types that tend to come at us from all directions. That and eternal damnation...if you're into believing such non-sense.
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Old 02-16-2004, 11:10 AM   #19
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Originally posted by ZDawg
Which makes no sense, as we read basicly (half) of the same bible, and we are saved by grace, not good deeds or works.
ZDAWG I dont know how to put this any other way but you seem to be befouled by the worst aspects of christian indoctrination. You are not even capable of perceiving the much more far reaching scope of eastern religions. As Tyrion said earlier eastern religons make YOU responsible for your self. If you are to attain anything great YOU must actively work to change it. There is no cop out of asking God for forgiveness, or redemption. YOU are responsible of redeeming yourself. Which in a way is what Christianity teaches anyway.


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Old 02-16-2004, 07:41 PM   #20
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First of all, you dont know me and know nothing of how I live my life, with that being said do I not have as much right to believe in christianity as you do in a eastern religion? and have I told you that eastern religion is the wrong religion? no? woops!, look whos being the christian stero type now!
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Old 02-16-2004, 09:03 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZDawg
Which makes no sense, as we read basicly (half) of the same bible, and we are saved by grace, not good deeds or works.
Mohammmed's Koran is almost the same as The Bible, but what Buddha teaches is wholly different.



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Old 02-16-2004, 11:04 PM   #22
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You and I can read a book, and tell people what we think about it, and even though we both read the EXACT same book, our views can be VERY different... does that make either of us right? or wrong?
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Old 02-16-2004, 11:12 PM   #23
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Originally posted by taoistimmortal
ZDAWG I dont know how to put this any other way but you seem to be befouled by the worst aspects of christian indoctrination.
Ill try to say this without being a complete jerk, but why is it, when a Christian so much as points to what he believes, he is an indoctrinated extremist?, but the second an atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, or any other "religion" says anything about their what they believe, its ok because they are simply "saying what they believe". I don’t know how to put this Taos, but you seem to have a bad case of Christian bias, which is as bad as a Christian extremist, or Buddhist, Muslim or atheist for that matter.
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Old 02-17-2004, 01:09 AM   #24
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Ill try to say this without being a complete jerk, but why is it, when a Christian so much as points to what he believes, he is an indoctrinated extremist?, but the second an atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, or any other "religion" says anything about their what they believe, its ok because they are simply "saying what they believe".
I don't think Christians can say much of anything about what they believe without being written off as complete jerks (or indoctrinated bigots, hate mongers, intolerant racist nazi warmongering hateful anti-semitic ignorant extremists). The new trend out there today is to accept "alternative" religions such as Islam, various Eastern religions, and to some extent Judaism in the name of "tolerance," all the while putting down Christianity as being intolerant.

The problem is that the same people who tout tolerance as the world's highest goal are not willing to be tolerant themselves.


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Old 02-17-2004, 04:29 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by rccar328
I don't think Christians can say much of anything about what they believe without being written off as complete jerks (or indoctrinated bigots, hate mongers, intolerant racist nazi warmongering hateful anti-semitic ignorant extremists).
I can't speak for others that post here, but I can for myself. What I find objectionable about christianity is that it, being the dominant cult in America, is intolerant of other religions and worldviews. I understand why, I just think that the christian voice needs to be countered as a balance in order to maintain religious freedom in the United States.

I don't believe that being christian automatically makes one a bigot, racist, nazi, etc., in fact I think most christians are anything but, however, there is a correlation between fanatism and religion, whether it be christianity, islam, judaism, etc.

I'm skeptical of any group that touts itself as having the right or correct worldview. I consider myself to be on the outside of theism, while at the same time remaining compassionate of the theists. But, being on the outside, I consider all world religions to be equally valid or correct.

I do, however, believe that there are religions in the world that have more credibility than others. I base credibility level on the religion's compassion and tolerance for the beliefs of those that chose not to follow it. In short, some religions are less religiocentric than others. Native American religions are a primary example as are some Eastern religions, mainly Buddhism. Perhaps there are even denominations of christianity that are not judgemental toward other religions, though I've not yet discovered them.

I've studied many world religions, I must say that (from the outside of theism) there are many aspects of christianity that are similar in cult extreme to, say, West African cults that believe witches fly into the night to prey on the those alone in the jungle. Try explaining Holy Communion to a West African: "first we eat the body of Christ then drink his blood.... Christ? Oh, that's the dude nailed to the trees over the altar."

Quote:
Originally posted by rccar328
The new trend out there today is to accept "alternative" religions such as Islam, various Eastern religions, and to some extent Judaism in the name of "tolerance," all the while putting down Christianity as being intolerant.
But christianity is intolerant. From the christian point of view, if you don't accept christ as a savior and believe in him, you aren't favored for eternal life. But then most religions are intolerant, and necessarily so. The purpose of the priesthood in a religion is to create order and maintain the status quo by indicating what is appropriate and what is not, directing the leity in their rituals, setting a heirarchy for religious officials and leity, etc. One way to ensure membership of a religion is to create an other, which consists of the non-believers.

Islam does it. Hinduism does it. Judaism does it. Buddhism does it (though in a very subtle way). Christianity does it.

Interestingly enough, the religions that I've noticed the least of this (creation of the other and subsequent scorn of it) are aboriginal ones that lack complex heirarchies. These are often the religions that have the most credibility to me, since they stress connections to the earth and the universe around us and point out that Man is of the earth and therefore part of it. Modern religions, however, stress the temporary nature of earth and stress that Man is the central factor which is a symptom of complex organization and religious officials securing their powerbase.

I think it is very likely that judeo-christian religion was once less complex and more 'earth-central,' if you will, but evolved into what we have now. One can see the complexities by looking at the judeo-christian History and noting the development of the Bible, Torah, and even the Qu'uran. The bible, for instance, is largely comprised of relgious texts and letters that significant religious figures in antiquity felt were significant. What is left out of the bible is likely very telling of the culture of the time, and perhaps the reason why it was left out. I point to the book of Thomas as but one example.

Quote:
Originally posted by rccar328
The problem is that the same people who tout tolerance as the world's highest goal are not willing to be tolerant themselves.
Or perhaps they are intolerant of intolerance! Or, at the very least, the limitation of religious blinders that only allow a narrow perspective.

I don't know how you, as a christian, will perceive this post, but I assure you it was intended for intellectual discussion and not as a beratement of your religion.


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Old 02-17-2004, 08:07 AM   #26
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"Not the shape but the feeling behind it. If we were to just be wrapped up in merely the shape of things, we would not be able to get to the feelings within".

The book is of no worth if you can't read, the content is of no meaning if you don't have your own understanding of every single word. Why then would one need Bible other than to convince himself of what he already knew?
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Old 02-17-2004, 08:58 AM   #27
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The problem is that the same people who tout tolerance as the world's highest goal are not willing to be tolerant themselves.
Quote:
Or perhaps they are intolerant of intolerance!
Amen to that!

Intolarence against intolerance = tolerance.

rccar328, if you weren't so busy banging you head against that so-called 'liberal wall' of yours, you'd see that... (and perhaps some of the other excellent points Skin made in his post)


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Old 02-17-2004, 02:49 PM   #28
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nice post skin, i agree with pretty much all you say (although i couldn't have said it as well or with as few typos).

I also tend to find that the more intolerant and sure a religious group are of their beliefs then the less credibility they have with me. It often seems like the original focus of the religion has been lost over time as more and more rules, restrictions and heirarchies have been introduced to define the religion.

Also, christianity kind of ends up getting bashed a bit because it is the dominant religion in the west and people feel it is big enough to take it.

As for the bible, those scholars who put it together and edited it had an absolutely huge influence on the whole religion from that point, and as far as i know they weren't divinely chosen in any way. So i guess you could say that it is a thrid party edited compilation of witness statements about events, and as such it is just as subject to bias as current news might be subject to bias due to the political feelings of the editors.

Oddly, i've come round to almost supporting Michael111: Jesus might well have had a good message, but by writing it down in the bible it has become almost tainted by human failings and i guess you could say that it has become the root of a lot of the evil and intollerances in the world. Who would have thought that.



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Old 02-18-2004, 07:28 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by SkinWalker
What I find objectionable about christianity is that it, being the dominant cult in America, is intolerant of other religions and worldviews. I understand why, I just think that the christian voice needs to be countered as a balance in order to maintain religious freedom in the United States.
So are you saying that religious freedom in the United States is being restricted by Christianity? And if so, how? If anything, it sounds to me like you’re saying that it’s okay to restrict the freedom of Christians to practice their religion in the name of “tolerance.”
There is a growing trend in America to accept any religion as long as it is not Christianity. The truth is that nearly all religions are exclusive & intolerant of other religions and worldviews.

Quote:
I'm skeptical of any group that touts itself as having the right or correct worldview.
Yet all the while, you tout yourself as having the right or correct worldview.

Quote:
I do, however, believe that there are religions in the world that have more credibility than others. I base credibility level on the religion's compassion and tolerance for the beliefs of those that chose not to follow it.
I’ve said it before: Christianity is about personal choice. No matter what your opinion is on religious indoctrination (or brainwashing, as you term it), there is, in Christianity, always the choice to turn away from God, no matter whether a child’s parents force them to go to a particular church or school – Christianity is not about where you attend church or school, it is about what you believe.

As for credibility, if Christians were totally accepting and tolerant of other religions and worldviews, they would have no credibility. Period. According to your scale, a Christian with credibility is not a Christian at all (compassion + tolerance = acceptance). Being a Christian means believing in Christ and following His laws. This includes John 14:6 – “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
According to your scale of so-called “credibility,” a Christian would have to forsake his beliefs in order to be credible, in which case he would no longer be a Christian.

Quote:
Try explaining Holy Communion to a West African: "first we eat the body of Christ then drink his blood.... Christ? Oh, that's the dude nailed to the trees over the altar."
Luke 22:19
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

Here’s your explanation: the celebration of the Last Supper (Communion) is a ritual that Christians perform in order to remember the sacrifice the Christ made for us.

Quote:
But christianity is intolerant.
I never said it wasn’t (*keep reading, I explain more later). What I was saying is that there is a very active trend today to accept other religions (which are at least as intolerant as Christianity), all the while condemning Christianity.

Quote:
Or perhaps they are intolerant of intolerance!
That doesn’t make their intolerance right.


People write off Christianity as intolerant, and, for the most part, see it as not being credible (as you do), because it does not conform to the moral relativist standard so revered by the secular humanist agenda.

The simple truth is that people dislike (or in many cases hate) Christianity because it is “intolerant.” They don’t like Christianity because it applies a moral standard to our world that they are unwilling to at least try to live up to and therefore consider to be unfair. They see Christians as judgmental and intolerant simply due to the fact that we believe in a moral standard.

Here – I’m saying it: Christianity is an intolerant religion (*explained further below). However, a distinction must be made between intolerance and judgment.

There are many “Christians” out there who are all too willing to be judgmental of others. However, Christians are called to not be judgmental: “You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.” (Romans 14:10)

Instead of being judgmental, we are called to look at people through the view of God’s laws, knowing that while we do not always live up to God’s standards, it is our mission to try to do so, and to help others to do so. Christianity is not judgmental; it is compassionate. Yes, we do believe that people who live in sin and do not repent will spend eternity in Hell. However, it is the calling of Christians to reach out to those people and share the Truth of Christ with them in order to save them from Hell.

There is a common misinterpretation of that compassion as a “forcing” of Christian morals – and in some cases, it is. There are many people who take this particular principle of Christianity too far. I, however, believe that when it comes to teaching Biblical morals and the right way to live, we can only go so far. We reach a certain point when each person must decide for themselves what to believe, and we must let them.

The question of whether Christianity is intolerant depends on the definition of tolerance. The way I think of tolerance is apparently an old definition (taken from my 1990 copy of Miriam Webster’s New World Dictionary): “to respect other’s beliefs, practices, etc. without sharing them.” Under this definition, Christianity is most definitely tolerant – the belief that people who refuse to accept Christ will go to hell does not mean that I cannot respect while not accepting their views.

Under a more modern definition, Christianity is definitely intolerant (taken from Miriam Webster’s Online Dictionary): “to suffer to be or to be done without prohibition, hindrance, or contradiction.”

Under this definition, though, we are all intolerant – if we disagree with someone’s views, should we give up our freedom of speech in the name of tolerance? I think not. The definition of tolerance is moving more and more toward acceptance. Belief in tolerance and belief in religious freedom are becoming mutually exclusive. For that matter, belief in tolerance and belief in disagreement of any kind (under this trend of changing definitions) are becoming mutually exclusive.

Due to these perceptions of “intolerance,” Christian views and practices are actively being restricted across our world. Students in American schools are often prohibited from engaging in voluntary prayer on campus. There was even a case in a school (I believe it was in Texas) where a school principle declared that anyone who mentioned the name “Jesus” or “God” at a graduation ceremony would be arrested, because it may offend someone. In other instances, students have been prohibited from engaging in voluntary student-led prayer on campus due to the mythical right not to be offended (and these are only a few of many examples).

Really, this entire argument over tolerance vs. intolerance is all about the mythical right not to be offended. This argument stems from both racism and political correctness. People see racism, sexism, and other types of discrimination that occurred in the past, combine that with the changing of what is considered acceptable vs. offensive language & practices, and assume that if they are offended by someone’s views, they have a right to take legal action. Now, I don’t know about you, but my copy of the Constitution contains no language stating that we have a right not to be offended. It does, however, say that all Americans have a right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. That includes my right to openly and voluntarily pray wherever and whenever I wish. It includes my right to have and maintain a moral standard. It includes my right to share my religious views with others. And it includes your right to disagree with those views and morals.

The simple truth is that if “tolerance” really was the be-all and end-all of morality, we would all be imprisoned for offending someone’s moral sensibilities. Christianity is written off as intolerant because Christians believe in a higher moral standard, and we believe that there are consequences when people refuse to follow that moral standard. We believe that man does not have the authority to define moral right & wrong – that authority rests with God (mainly because when man defines right & wrong, things that are wrong become more and more right over time. It’s that ever-growing gray area all over again. If you choose not to believe that, fine. But the fact that Christians hold to a more strict moral standard than many people does not give anyone the right to persecute them or restrict their religious freedoms because of that moral standard.


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Old 02-18-2004, 12:16 PM   #30
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christianity is no more intollerant than any other religion, in fact it is probably more tollerant than some (although there is a very broad range in almost all religions).

However, christianity is the dominant religion in the western countries where most of the people on this discussion live. As such, it is both a bigger target and better able to withstand criticism than most other religions in the west.

I'm equally happy to criticise things about other religions, however
(a) I don't get exposed to the views of many other religions in a direct way
(b) These other religions don't have anywhere near as much power and influence in the western world (especially the US) as christianity and therefore I don't feel that they need to be held to account as much by it's citizens
(c) Most of us don't know as much about other religions that are based in other countries as we do about christianity.
(d) One has to be a lot more careful when critisising minority groups. *

*which isn't to say that you shouldn't, but you have to be aware that they start off in a much more weakened and distrusted position to start with.

So basically, christianity is bound to come in for more criticism in the west than most other religions, but it should be big enough and old enough to take it.

-----

Santa claus [from the other thread] is actually an interesting one as it is one of many cases of the cristian church adapting existing beliefs and cultures into it's religion. Heck, christmas is on the date of an old pagan festival instead of whatever the "proper" date should be. Valentines day is another example.

If the early church was this willing to incorporate existing festivals, events and cultural beliefs into it's own, then I don't think you can asume everything in the bible is "fact" and not influenced in some way by the beliefs and cultures around the writers and editors.



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Last edited by toms; 02-18-2004 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 02-19-2004, 02:58 PM   #31
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christianity is no more intollerant than any other religion, in fact it is probably more tollerant than some
That's all I'm saying. While there are Christians who are very intolerant of others (sometimes even to the point of violence), Christianity, for the most part is tolerant of other lifestyles (according to the first definition I provided). We don't agree with those lifestyles, but, like I said, it gets to personal choice.

Quote:
However, christianity is the dominant religion in the western countries where most of the people on this discussion live. As such, it is both a bigger target and better able to withstand criticism than most other religions in the west.
Criticism isn't the problem - I agree, Christianity can handle it. The problem is that there is a growing movement in America to restrict the religious freedoms of Christians in the name of tolerance or the supposed "separation of church and state" (which is not in the Constitution).

The problem that I have with this is that while people criticize Christianity for being intolerant, they at the same time raise up religions such as Islam, which is at the very least just as intolerant as Christianity.

This was especially apparent at Christmas time - in case after case, mainly at schools, teachers were told by administrators that they could not use traditional Christmas symbols (even Christmas trees in some cases) in an effort not to offend anyone, but at the same time they allowed Muslim symbols for the celebration of Ramadan and Jewish symbols for the celebration of Hanukkah (and celebrations of Kwanzaa).

I have no problem with celebrating Ramadan or Hanukkah & teaching our children about them, but why include these religions in the name of tolerance all the while excluding Christianity because somebody out there might find it offensive? If someone out there understands and/or can rationalize this duplicity, please explain it to me.


Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
~John F. Kennedy

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Old 02-20-2004, 04:49 AM   #32
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Did I just see a weird message at the back of a van? "Believe in Jesus or go to hell" Bah. Personal choice.



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The *only* thing that ALL the religions get right is that ALL the other religions are wrong, excluding this fact.
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Old 02-20-2004, 06:56 AM   #33
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"just dont read it" would be the answer..

although i easily can ignore such things it's the same as if i say jesus is a looner.

everyone has the same personal choice to ignore this.


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Old 02-20-2004, 01:05 PM   #34
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Some people like to say that Jesus is the only salvation, and that if you do not join him, you go to hell. Somewhat like the Empire, yes?
(Right, maybe I'm biased, many religions are like that, but I just wanted to say it)



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The *only* thing that ALL the religions get right is that ALL the other religions are wrong, excluding this fact.
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Old 02-22-2004, 04:35 PM   #35
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ZDAWG I would have responded in a more timely fashion but I had no oppurtunity. It seems you took me more severly than I intended, and that is probably my own fault. I didnt get my point across and I attacked you personally which is no way to get to the bottom of things, and as for your attempt to retaliate by accusing me of possessing a bias against christian's, I can honestly say that I do have a bias, but not the one you've accused me of.

My bias is a sense of curiosity, the feel of fascination, and occasionally outright horror, anger, or despair when confronted by the true potency of zeolots, people in which their belief or faith over ride their ability to perceive reality in a rational manner, or to hold any truth more important than their perception of the existence of God.

My last post was over the top; full of too many assumptions. I thought I had understood something in what you wrote that you in fact never intended. I will say though that if you know nothing about a thing you should refrain from saying things against it. But after all you were stating your opinion and I should not have taken the path I did in commenting on them, for that I apologize.

Hmmm.. I guess befouled is an extremely harsh word. Sorry about that one too




What is the path of redemption anyways. For you it may be Christ for me it can only be a differnt path.


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Old 02-22-2004, 09:20 PM   #36
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Originally posted by taoistimmortal
What is the path of redemption anyways. For you it may be Christ for me it can only be a differnt path.
I accept your appology, No offense taken and none intended for believing what I believe, however, if me being a christian offendes you, then for that I am guilty, but I cannot be sorry for believeing what I do.

I believe the bible when it says "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the father except through me" -Jesus. I wont force you to believe that, but I can be at peace and at least know that I KNOW what I believe, and Im not in some endless search
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Old 02-23-2004, 08:21 PM   #37
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I wont force you to believe that, but I can be at peace and at least know that I KNOW what I believe, and Im not in some endless search
That's the same as saying cat's can't fly becasue they can't. Your statement doesn't really state anything. And in case you didn't notice taoistimmortal believes also.

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I believe the bible when it says "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the father except through me" -Jesus.
Everyone believes. It's just some people believe that there is a good point in stop lying to themselves and some don't.
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Old 02-23-2004, 09:29 PM   #38
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Originally posted by Homuncul
That's the same as saying cat's can't fly becasue they can't. Your statement doesn't really state anything. And in case you didn't notice taoistimmortal believes also.
I stated I believe what I do, but Im not forcing anyone to agree with me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
Everyone believes. It's just some people believe that there is a good point in stop lying to themselves and some don't.
So once again we have people pulling off what they all accuse christians of doing "Your lying to yourself" or "Im right and your not" Hypocricy sucks, period.
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Old 02-24-2004, 10:48 PM   #39
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Everyone believes. It's just some people believe that there is a good point in stop lying to themselves and some don't.
Who are you saying is lying to themselves? Are you, am I, who?
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Old 02-26-2004, 02:52 PM   #40
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Re: the bible = the tree of the knowledge of good and evil () Jesus = the tree of life

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Originally posted by Michael111
The bible

It is a book containing the knowledge of good and evil.

The forbidden fruit was not an apple. The fruit of a tree is also paper. And upon the pages of the bible is the knowledge of good and evil. The bible is poisoned with the knowledge of evil.

Any book that contains the knowledge of the devil is dangerous.

Ritualistic animal sacrifices, ceremonies incorporating the blood of dead animals, superstitious numbers, curses, evil spirits, dark prophecies... all in the bible.

Plotting, conspiracy, mass-murder, betrayal, genocide, slavery, suffering, wars... all in the bible.

Religion is the church of the poison mind. Minds poisoned by the knowledge of evil. People are deceived by religion.

The kingdom of God is within us all. Not within the pages of a book containing the knowledge of evil. I have recently shut it for good. I will not touch, nor taste of it again.

Because of Jesus Christ, I'm back in the land of the living. I've torn off my fig-leaf, and am returning to Eden. I am who God made me to be. The shame, guilt, and confusion is past-tense.

Thank You Jesus.

The Tree of Life = Jesus Christ

Love. Understanding. Tolerance. Acceptance.
Peace. Unity. Respect. Freedom. Unspeakable Joy.

Eat freely from this tree and be saved.

Love,

Michael111

Just because people did wrong things, doesnt mean the bible is to blame, or God. It doesnt mean the bible supports what they did.

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All you need is Faith, not a book. I remember that throughout history Roman Catholics when they read from their Latin Bibles, translate it differently to manipulate the people, and of course the people believed them. You can truly get by with Faith alone.
Compare it with the dead sea scrolls, the original writings. The catholics dont follow the bible 100% anyways....

Quote:
"separation of church and state" (which is not in the Constitution).
Cool, you noticed it too


I didnt read the whole thread, because i dont have much time left, and im in school.. so if i have repeated something... then ignore it....
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