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Old 03-16-2004, 10:04 AM   #1
MarshmellowHair
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Hello

Ehy, i've just joined the jka forums and wanted to say hi to you guys!

I've got a question: is it true that the saber staff is quite unbalanced? 'cause a friend of mine keep owning me with it; i thought i was quite proficient with the single saber, 'cause i played a lot of jedi outcast in the past, but now it seems i need a bit of practice to win vs him

Oh, and what is some good server?
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Old 03-16-2004, 10:50 AM   #2
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Re: Hello

Quote:
Originally posted by MarshmellowHair
Ehy, i've just joined the jka forums and wanted to say hi to you guys!

I've got a question: is it true that the saber staff is quite unbalanced? 'cause a friend of mine keep owning me with it; i thought i was quite proficient with the single saber, 'cause i played a lot of jedi outcast in the past, but now it seems i need a bit of practice to win vs him

Oh, and what is some good server?
Well the saber staff is quite fair (but just between you and me go to ravengames.com and look for a duel saber staff mod then you can beet the CRAP out of him! )I can not anwser that last question about the server. Oh and welcome to lucasforums!!! you will love it here I have not even been here for a month and I love it!!


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Old 03-16-2004, 11:49 AM   #3
Druid Allanon
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Welcome to the forums.

No, saber staff isn't unbalanced, neither is single nor dual. In my opinion, they are all balanced to ensure a fair gameplay
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Old 03-16-2004, 01:35 PM   #4
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Ok thanks for the quick replies, guys!

Looks like I need some practice
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Old 03-16-2004, 01:48 PM   #5
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Re: Hello

Quote:
Originally posted by MarshmellowHair
Oh, and what is some good server?
Define "good".

In other words, what to you makes a server a "good server"?

Low ping? Use the server browser to sort servers by ping, low to high.

Favorite map? Sort the servers by map.

Lots of other players? Use the server browser to sort servers by number of players, highest to lowest. When I first started playing first I picked the game type (FFA, CTF, Siege, Duel, etc.), chose Display Empty Servers: No and Display Full Servers: No, sorted the servers by ping low to high, then picked the server with the most players from among the ones with the lowest ping. Or, you could by number of players highest to lowest and pick one with an acceptable ping.

Does a "good server" mean standing around watching people duel with sabers-only and no force (except maybe jump), chatting with other players about boys, hair and makeup tips, and your favorite songs, or pretending with other players that you are ordering bantha soup in the Tatooine cantina? Find servers that have the Force-disabled and saber-only symbols after their names.

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Old 03-16-2004, 02:29 PM   #6
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All the sabers are pretty well balanced.

And hello
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Old 03-16-2004, 02:29 PM   #7
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Ok tnx for the reply
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Old 03-16-2004, 07:53 PM   #8
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the blades are weightless so balance is irrelevant Actually, i dont think the game is balanced very well for sabers, not like jk2.

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Old 03-17-2004, 09:26 AM   #9
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Hello welcome to the forums




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Old 03-17-2004, 08:06 PM   #10
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No one can really agree on what constitutes "unbalance" with regards to sabers in JA if the forums are any indication.


Some say that Dual Sabers are overpowered, others say that the Staff is. Still others say that both new saber types "own all."

Finally, there are at least a few who insist that single sabers are superior.

In my (I admit, non-proffessional) dueling experience it really depends more on the player than on the type of saber they're using.


A few things DO affect how the sabers perform, and this can be chalked up to the admin's fault (and I'm not talking about mods that change gameplay like some admin mods, those don't even count):

ForceRegentime 0

This setting is unfortunately used by a lot of admins (or something really low like 50). This means that you can spam special moves (that use up mana) forever since you have basically infinite mana.

So they can kata, twirl, roll stab, DFA, etc forever. When this happens it wouldn't be surprising if a player can win simply by kata, butterfly, saber barrier, twirling forever.

Another factor:

G_saberdamagescale

This is usually set to 1 (the default) which means that sabers don't do a lot of damage (to make for "long dramatic duels" as fans demanded in the JK2 days). Playing on this setting may or may not be fair, since some moves are one hit kills, while others don't do much damage at all. Increasing it to 2 (recommended by Raven for non Duels or people who want fights to go faster) I feel makes it seem more balanced. Why shouldn't a direct saber hit kill or at least take you down to very low health? This helps eliminate some of the "weak vs. 1 hit kill moves" syndrome.

You still have to aim though, every nick to a person's leg isn't going to be a kill, unless you set it very high.


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Old 03-17-2004, 08:27 PM   #11
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One mod you should download is a saber mod go to ravengames.com and look for a duel saber staff mod! This should help but somepeople might blow a fuse if you use it because it makes duels to easy for you.


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Old 03-17-2004, 08:40 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
No one can really agree on what constitutes "unbalance" with regards to sabers in JA if the forums are any indication.


Some say that Dual Sabers are overpowered, others say that the Staff is. Still others say that both new saber types "own all."

Finally, there are at least a few who insist that single sabers are superior.

In my (I admit, non-proffessional) dueling experience it really depends more on the player than on the type of saber they're using.

You still have to aim though, every nick to a person's leg isn't going to be a kill, unless you set it very high.
You're right there. In my opinion Single is weak as all hell.

Why:

1: Blue is worthless vs staff and dual with exception of kata and lunge (Which are specials and by that thus should not be main modes of attack). Blue is more worthless vs. staff.

2: Yellow is like blue vs staff and dual, only less so, thankfully. Side slashes will work, but you have to be a friggin god to hit it. The special rarely hits anyone decent, though it works as a surprise I guess.

3: Lower defense than the other styles. I dare anyone to question this.

4: The only really useful style against staff and dual happens to be red, which is so slow you can be decked with incredible ease. Plus, red swings actually physically slow down your footspeed. To prove it, activate Speed and swing. You'll notice that you slow down. Badly.

5: Staff and dual have an infinite attack chain with nearly all slashes. Blue only has an infinite attack chain with forward slash, the side will stop after around 6 to 8 swings.

6: Said staff and dual infinite attack chain includes the incredibly unbalanced side slashes, staff again more noticable, which are as fast and more deadly than blue's, and equal to yellow's in damage but this balance is obliterated by the infinite attack chain.Try arguing against this when you see such a player, it's ridiculous in my opinion. Even Force empowered humans should not be able to keep that up forever.

7: Staff and dual's forward slashes are overheads, staff more so. They are nowhere near as easily blocked as blue's, are yellow fast, and of course get head locational damage AND can guard break singles very easily. Did I mention staffs and duals recover faster than singles in general and are very rarely knocked back? Oh, and did I mention that staff and dual's forwards have no noticable footspeed slowdown compared to red's?

8: Staff gets yellow, without the nearly useless special and kata but that's of no real consequence. So singles are down in that respect. Duals get blue, but the travesty is that they get lunge, essentially it's most deadly move.

9: Yawspeed abuse coupled with general area effect. Have you ever seen a really high yawspeeded dual barrier or staff spin? No? Let me tell you that not even red or lunge break through them if they're actually decent spinners. Not that blue's kata is any better, but due to single's lower defense it can be lunged past.

10: And the ultimate kicker.. They cost only the first level in saber offense to get the maximum range of moves in. These leaves the staffer or dualist more force points than the singler in Full Force games. The only real oenalty is in saber locks but who cares since they can be broken by simply binding SaberAttackCycle to a mousewheel?

I thibnk that's a comprehensive list of my greivances. Not that it matters, I usually beat them down anyway unless they REALLY abuse it well.


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Old 03-17-2004, 11:30 PM   #13
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^^^^^^Thank goodness for guns!

And that's why I think saber-only servers are boring and unbalanced. Whenever someone squats into that dual saber barrier, they are a sitting duck for some repeater alt-fire.

Someone chasing you while swinging wildly with a saber staff? Run backwards (they have no saber throw) and toss detpacks or tripmines in front of them.

Or even better, snipe them from afar or send a homing rocket after them.

As the members of the Obsidian Empire clan love to remind saberists: "Those who live by the sword shall be shot by those who don't".

People who only play on saber-only servers are missing out on a much richer, more fun, more well-rounded experience.

And Kurgan, xMod lets you control how much Force is required\drained for all special and kata saber moves, so you can compensate for faster Force regeneration. You can prevent kata spamming by increasing the minimum Force required and the amount of Force drained for katas (and help single saberists by removing Force requirements for single saber specials) while having plenty of Force for speed, jump, push\pull, seeing, etc.

And increased saber damage helps the single-saberists the most, bringing them closer to the 1 or 2 hit kill status that the staff already has.

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Old 03-17-2004, 11:42 PM   #14
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Personally though, I don't really like gunnrers with force.. i prefer the Jedi vs. Merc/ForceMod II approach by far since gunners with Force are only vulnerable to saberists if they use Pull excessively in lieu with PullThrow if they can use Speed, Jump, Push/Pull and absorb semi decently.

But then, I'm sorta biased since I'm kinda blind and can't really shoot for crap.

BTW.. The staff don't have saber throw isn't that great of an argument since they can switch it off and throw, then swap it back on almost immediately as it returns.

You also forget a certain tactic that only works with staff and dual and the lethal sabers you mention.. Combine speed using staff or dual, and hold the button, move. They become an unstoppable force for singles unless they get decked by red in a lucky shot. Since staff and dual have insane block, attack speed, and pierce the ridiculously simple combination referenced above allows them to rack up the kills while only holding the button due to the infinite attack chain. It's ridiculous, and I can get ACDCfanbill to agree, considering he's done so with me privately.


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Old 03-17-2004, 11:43 PM   #15
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Well, I think that everythings balanced, its just how good you are with that saber type. I personaly am a lot better with single, dunno why, but it just feels more solid. Weird, I know :P




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Old 03-18-2004, 06:20 AM   #16
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Lathain valtiel u r a ****ing n00b, SHUT THE **** UP.
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Old 03-18-2004, 08:57 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by A Jedi
Lathain valtiel u r a ****ing n00b, SHUT THE **** UP.
Why are you insulting him when he hasn't done anything to you?
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Old 03-18-2004, 11:21 AM   #18
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I dunno, I think he's got a feud with Lathain. But, looking at him swearing, I suppose he's got a warning PM by now.



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Old 03-18-2004, 11:30 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by A Jedi
Lathain valtiel u r a ****ing n00b, SHUT THE **** UP.


Ahem, yeah. IMO the staff is too powerful. The butterfly does to much damage, and so do regular swings. Jumping over a staffer is difficult (unless you jump at maximum) due to the wild second blade. I can't find any staffers who don't just rush into fights with attack pressed down, or who just butterly continuously into FFA's.
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Old 03-18-2004, 01:33 PM   #20
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The butterfly isn't really of consequence unless it's yawspeeded... While I do agree that a single nick of it in the leg doing 15-30 in normal damage servers is ludicrous for the most part it can result in pain for the user if it's sidestepped by the target and said sidestepper uses a red side swing. Said red usully knocks off thirty in my experience, not always worth it though.

The wild second blade IS an annoyance though.


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Old 03-18-2004, 01:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
I can't find any staffers who don't just rush into fights with attack pressed down, or who just butterly continuously into FFA's.
You haven't been looking hard enough. I have known quite a few people who use staffs efficiently. They time their attacks well, and don't constantly spam butterflies. Duelling them is fun and challenging.

Quote:
4: The only really useful style against staff and dual happens to be red, which is so slow you can be decked with incredible ease. Plus, red swings actually physically slow down your footspeed. To prove it, activate Speed and swing. You'll notice that you slow down. Badly.
Really? Then I find it amazing then I can beat quite a few staffers(not those who spam butterflies though). Yes, I agree, red is indeed slow, but it's the only rational move against dual sabers/staffs. Using other stances is suicide, especially blue. I usually dodge their fast moves by using jump, and my wide red swing usually keeps them back.
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Old 03-18-2004, 01:47 PM   #22
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Allow me to add an amendment to 4 then: The easy hit part is more or less only true if said staff/dualer times their attacks to hit you on the recovery (In other words, while holding the button and you swing they move back slightly so their superior block causes a crash, or get out of the way utterly, then they press forward again holding the button so that the fast slashes nick or get you outright, even on jumps. Remember, they don't have a speed hit.).

Honestly the above kind of staffer is the only kind that wins against me. You are not exactly talking to a newbie on single here.

They also have that one air wild swing special to get out of virtually any trap.


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Old 03-18-2004, 02:25 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Whenever someone squats into that dual saber barrier, they are a sitting duck for some repeater alt-fire.
Or single saber blue lunge!
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Old 03-18-2004, 03:13 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Druid Allanon
red is indeed slow, but it's the only rational move against dual sabers/staffs. Using other stances is suicide.

Thats not true. When timed right Yellow stance is very effective against staffs and dual sabers.

Red is the safest to use until the staff/ dual user realizes that they can swing forever.


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Old 03-18-2004, 04:05 PM   #25
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It's the easiest to be okay with duals, easiest to master the single saber, and the staff is rather balanced between the 2. In my opinion, it's hardest to truly master the dual sabers simply because they can be so random at times. the staff is easier to master but not exactly easy. And while single is the most challenging to learn to defend with, it's the easiest style to master in the end.

The single has a number of advantages: 3 distinct katas, the blue uppercut, etc. In fact, if used correctly, the blue kata is one of the most effective in the game. I've seen a staff guy get slaughtered by someone who used only blue style - and the staff guy wasn't all that bad, either.

The dual and staff users who do not just spam special moves can be incredibly deadly - and when they do use the specials, they usually use them more effectively than those who simply spam them.

Overall, though, Raven did a fantastic job of balancing the game.


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Old 03-18-2004, 04:19 PM   #26
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You can't really master a saber type.

A better player allways comes along and uses a style that you never even seen before.

Just because you are efficient with a certain saber type does not mean you've mastered it.


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Old 03-18-2004, 05:33 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sam
Thats not true. When timed right Yellow stance is very effective against staffs and dual sabers.

Red is the safest to use until the staff/ dual user realizes that they can swing forever.
This is correct. However, as I said in my opinion you need to be a virtual god to hit it right, and if you're knocked back consider yourself dead. It's random in my opinion.

Keralys forgets that dual gets the lunge. I addressed that already. Also, very very few people can be decked by the single katas if they keep moving and don't try jumping in front of the guy if he's prone to such a thing.

Prime is correct and incorrect about lunge. As I said, normally it's possible but if they yawspin it half decently you get cut before you complete the lunge movement and you thus die.


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Old 03-18-2004, 05:35 PM   #28
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I have.

Uber-L337 dual saberist, at your service. Well, not really, but I like duals best. They just...look awesome.


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Old 03-18-2004, 07:49 PM   #29
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Amidala:

Quote:
And Kurgan, xMod lets you control how much Force is required\drained for all special and kata saber moves, so you can compensate for faster Force regeneration. You can prevent kata spamming by increasing the minimum Force required and the amount of Force drained for katas (and help single saberists by removing Force requirements for single saber specials) while having plenty of Force for speed, jump, push\pull, seeing, etc.
That's all well and good I suppose, but then you still have the "problem" of spamming of all other force based moves.

Sure, I suppose on a Force Disabled (except the saber moves) server this would be great, but on any other server you'd still have spamming and complaints as a result.

Then I guess you can increase the force required for all moves, but then you're back at square one. The only difference is that players will have the illusion that their mana pool is always full, when in fact they can still only do a couple of moves before it's drained.

The key is always resource management. To me, ForceRegenTime 0 makes about as much sense as giving everyone infinite ammo on every gun (just wait, somebody will make that mod, oh wait they already have!). ; )


Lathain Valtiel

You say that SaberAttackCycle (change stance key?) can be bound to mousewheel to break saber locks? I didn't know that.

I can probably count the saber locks I've been in in MP on one hand, but I thought the only way to break one was to either tap "Attack" (which of course could be scripted or used with a rapid fire controller) or to use Push (which doesn't always work).

Interesting...

You're right about "Red" swings slowing down your movement, but then a LOT of moves slow down your movement (don't believe me try a spin with just about any type of saber). The key is that Strong tends to slow you down MORE than others. With that I agree.

However a person can use Speed/Rage with any saber type, they aren't limited to just the Staff. For me, I usually find it harder to hit people using Speed (unless they don't have a saber out), but maybe I just suck at it. ; )

The biggest strength for me with singles (other than the Katas of course, which are excellent counters to the spinny moves of the Dual/Staff) is the sheer number of moves available to you. You can trick your opponent much easier and you won't fall into patterns so easily.

I won't even bother addressing the "yawspeed" issues since I never see them and that opens the whole "scripting is cheating" can 'o' worms I don't want to debate. Still, even saying that you can "yawspeed bind" the single saber moves too (Katas).


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Old 03-18-2004, 07:59 PM   #30
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If you can not choose betwean dual sabers and the saber staff click here you can get dual saber staffs!


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Old 03-19-2004, 03:38 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan


Lathain Valtiel

You say that SaberAttackCycle (change stance key?) can be bound to mousewheel to break saber locks? I didn't know that.

I can probably count the saber locks I've been in in MP on one hand, but I thought the only way to break one was to either tap "Attack" (which of course could be scripted or used with a rapid fire controller) or to use Push (which doesn't always work).

Interesting...

You're right about "Red" swings slowing down your movement, but then a LOT of moves slow down your movement (don't believe me try a spin with just about any type of saber). The key is that Strong tends to slow you down MORE than others. With that I agree.

However a person can use Speed/Rage with any saber type, they aren't limited to just the Staff. For me, I usually find it harder to hit people using Speed (unless they don't have a saber out), but maybe I just suck at it. ; )

The biggest strength for me with singles (other than the Katas of course, which are excellent counters to the spinny moves of the Dual/Staff) is the sheer number of moves available to you. You can trick your opponent much easier and you won't fall into patterns so easily.

I won't even bother addressing the "yawspeed" issues since I never see them and that opens the whole "scripting is cheating" can 'o' worms I don't want to debate. Still, even saying that you can "yawspeed bind" the single saber moves too (Katas). [/B]
Whoops, change that, I meant the Attack button bound to a mousewheel. It registers attacks so fast nothing competes, automatic victory.

You're correct about spin, I'm just saying staff and dual's overall speed loss are pretty much insignificant compared to singles in general.

You misunderstand my Speed thing. I'm referring to Speed combined with the infinite attack chain with Staff/Dual. It goes so quickly and their recovery delay is so low, say in block the first shot, and it results in a crash, I'm still recovering but they've already slashed again taking off a good chunk of health. This is physically inane when you consider dual sabers are being held in one hand each, with two hands on the hilt for singlers. As for staff's on that, the wild second blade should not allow that sort of recovery.

As for the katas and yawspin, I've addressed that in the fact that their defense doesn't par up with yawspinned dual/staff moves.


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Old 03-19-2004, 07:03 PM   #32
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Ok yawspeed is proven to be not better than regular mouse speed, and the only time it instant kills is when using moves like the right red swing, moves that hit twice. If u still have doubts about it, u can always try it with a friend.

Then about staff. It is two stingers together. Stinger is the small blade u can use as single saber (i dont remember the comand). Thats why staff is very diferent than duals.

Staff is strong, it IS for close combat, and duals are the oposite, they have LONG RANGE for distant fights.

This is the basics, doesnt mater if the whole mayority of people/noobs use them diferent.

But anyways lots of people agree that duals and staff should have a combo limit, like red and yellow for single.
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Old 03-20-2004, 12:42 AM   #33
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..What on earth are you rambling about?

First thing: Erm... Mouse sensitivity? Hello? There is no normal mouse speed, every mouse is different. That makes no sense. You can replace yawspin with excessive mouse sensitivity in my post, still valid.

Second thing: ...What are you going on about? So it has stinger length blades. Get to the point, the hilt size makes up for it.

Third: You can easily switch off the side and throw in a blink with staff. I've seen this. I've said that already. Get to the point, if you have one. Duals are not long range pal. Butterfly covers more ground than dual barrier any day of the week.


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Old 03-20-2004, 01:03 AM   #34
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Originally posted by Lathain Valtiel
..What on earth are you rambling about?

First thing: Erm... Mouse sensitivity? Hello? There is no normal mouse speed, every mouse is different. That makes no sense. You can replace yawspin with excessive mouse sensitivity in my post, still valid.

Second thing: ...What are you going on about? So it has stinger length blades. Get to the point, the hilt size makes up for it.

Third: You can easily switch off the side and throw in a blink with staff. I've seen this. I've said that already. Get to the point, if you have one. Duals are not long range pal. Butterfly covers more ground than dual barrier any day of the week.
OMFG, rofl, i think u need to read 3 or 4 times each post before replying, u r obviously dont have any idea of what i am talking about.

Omfg i read your post again, u r one retarded mofo.

My previous post is about the diference between single, staff and duals, and the damage they do and when, so read it carefully u idiot before talking crap again.

****ing n00b tssss
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Old 03-20-2004, 01:53 AM   #35
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Hmm.. Interesting.

1: There's nothing about damage except the 'staff is strong' thing with no clarification that isn't completely invalid.

2: You didn't say anything relating to time or timing.

3: And the difference you described is invalid because staff can switch a side off.

....Yeesh. Kurgan, how do you allow this stuff?


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Old 03-22-2004, 12:15 AM   #36
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pfffffttt u better be kiding me
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Old 03-22-2004, 11:03 PM   #37
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Well, since the original thread is starting to get a bit off track, maybe it's time to close it.

If you guys want to debate strategies (WITHOUT flames) please continue it in the Strategy forum.


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