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Old 03-23-2004, 12:05 AM   #1
BlackDove
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The more disturbing issues of our time: Bouncing Boobs

Ah, here we are, yet again. Ok, let's cut to the chase.

First and foremost, I was directed by one of the moderators to post here - but if this isn't the material for this forum, please move it with a notice on where it's going - thank you

In the "Yoda's Swamp" forum, a person with a handler name "gorganfloss" has made a post, and after they made their post, their avatar was revealed to be a female anime character in the form of a .gif that had been jumping up and down, and in the focus of this avatar, were her big, large or humongous and presumably very soft, breasts. (< Note my opinion of thinking there's nothing wrong with describing breasts or any other part of the human body, re-stated below)

Now, this avatar was removed by a moderator, because they found it to be a... problem. Here's a quote anyway.

Quote:
Cartoon clothed boobies are fine, so long as they are not bouncing. The bouncing avatar was discussed by all the mods and admins the first time it reared it's ugly head, and there was an outbreak of them, and we all agreed that it was not appropriate for this forum and degrading to women. Same way a bouncing penis avatar would not be allowed.


I know the concept of degrading to women is not familiar to a lot of you sexists.

If you have anything else to say about it, oh dear, we don't care.
Now, I'd like to break that down, but not starting from the top.

Quote:
If you have anything else to say about it, oh dear, we don't care.
Now, it's quite possible I am mistaken, but I hoped that a member's opinion counted, especially due to the fact that many moderators are picked from amongst the membership, and are (hopefully) rated according to past behaviour, and expressed opinions. So I was kind of hoping the above is not true, but I guess that's up to the admins to decide. If that's true, then I assume this thread can and will be closed with no replies.

Anyway, on a chance that isn't true - I'll continue

Quote:
Cartoon clothed boobies are fine, so long as they are not bouncing. The bouncing avatar was discussed by all the mods and admins the first time it reared it's ugly head, and there was an outbreak of them, and we all agreed that it was not appropriate for this forum and degrading to women. Same way a bouncing penis avatar would not be allowed.

I know the concept of degrading to women is not familiar to a lot of you sexists.
Okay, I was hoping to get an answer on why the still boobs were okay, but the bouncing ones weren't? All in all, they're the same, it's just that the bouncing ones take attention to themselves, while they are showing-off how bouncy, and breast-a-licious they are (a mathematical volume thing).

I can understand if it was massively used, how it would be degrading for the forum, but the last time I checked, time does flow, and the only person I saw in this instant to use it, was gorganfloss. Also, I would assume that if many people started using still pictures of drawn, covered up breasts, it would also be degrading the forum, or would I be wrong in that assumption?

However - what I can-not fathom, is how is that picture insulting to women? Unless you are coming from a conservative radical-feminist point of view, which the last time I checked had nothing to do with our position as the human species, I was wondering how that particular part of the human body would be insulting to the same gender? I would assume if someone posted a drawn overweight man (example used because of the gravity issues - where an overweight man is likely to have more fat in his breasts, therefore they would be achieving a very similar reaction in comparison to the female breasts) in a .gif, that the image would be recieving humourous reactions rather than negative ones (werther or not it would be degrading for the forums, should it be mass-used, I do not know).

In my everyday, as well as my internet life, I was always under the notion that breasts themselves, on a female or a male, aren't part of the genital complex. Comparing a penis to breasts is like comparing apples and oranges. It's just not in the same category. For the part of people who like the avatar being sexist - I would have to disagree there, because I like it, and even though I am a sexist, I choose to view the avatar from a standpoint that the human body is a natural thing, no matter which gender is in question.

In any case, that is all I wanted to explore. Thank you for reading.


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Old 03-23-2004, 12:32 AM   #2
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Wow, someone really likes that avatar don't they?

And so begins "the boobgate scandal".

I for one will not have a discuission with someone who is admitidly a sexist, but I will say that if the general opinion of this forum is the same as yours, I won't bother returning.


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Old 03-23-2004, 12:42 AM   #3
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Sorry 2 outta (how many girls that go to the swamp) find it offensive. So I think it should have been removed purely because it could be viewed as Sexual Harrasment by the female forumers of this community.


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Old 03-23-2004, 02:41 AM   #4
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I don't think he's obsessed with the avatar, I think he's just trying to make a point in a civilized manner, which he has done here. He's presented his views, and has posted why his views are like that. I think the fact that the thread is about this should have nothing to do with judging his character.

I happen to somewhat agree as well. I don't think it's that bad. But if the women feel offended by it (which two have said they are), I'm sure that they just aren't trying to cause a scene, and they really are offended.

However, I'd also like to say this-

BlackDove currently has an avatar of an anime male that in which you can see his chest.

I am not offended.




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Old 03-23-2004, 05:23 AM   #5
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Now that you mention it obi - it kinda does look like Black Dove's avi's boobs (err chest) is bouncing....


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Old 03-23-2004, 09:11 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by obi-wan13
I don't think he's obsessed with the avatar, I think he's just trying to make a point in a civilized manner, which he has done here. He's presented his views, and has posted why his views are like that. I think the fact that the thread is about this should have nothing to do with judging his character.
I didn't say he wasn't presenting his views in a civilized manner. I simply will not bother having a discussion with a sexist, because anything I say will fall on deaf ears, and would be a complete waste of my time.

Quote:
BlackDove currently has an avatar of an anime male that in which you can see his chest.

I am not offended.
That comment was immature. A man's chest is not a sexual part of his body.


The question here is why are we offended by a picture of bouncing boobs. Let me break it down for you.

It is hard enough for the women in this forum to feel comfortable as it is. We are faced with many stereotypes such as we are rubbish at games, don't like Star Wars, we must be ugly to be posting here etc etc. A picture of bouncing boobs belittles us further. It is a symbol of male dominance, which says one thing, women are nothing but sexual objects to be gawked at.

It is also inapropriate for this forum. We have a certain standard to maintain seeing as there are a high number of younger members. Allowing an avatar like that can lead to a number of other similar avatars, and this is a family forum (the Star Wars forum at least).

Would it be ok to allow a picture of an animated covered bouncing penis? No it wouldn't. And yes, boobs fall into the same category. Both are sexual parts of the body that if presented uncovered on this forum, would be considered porn. Would it be ok to allow a picture of real boobs bouncing up and down? No it wouldn't. The fact that the avatar is a cartoon makes no difference.

I myself have boobs in my avatar, so as you can see, I am not offended by pictures of boobs, so long as they are presented in a decent manner. If someone was to have a picture of just boobs, then I would consider it offensive aswell, for the reasons stated above.


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Old 03-23-2004, 10:34 AM   #7
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Having not seen the avatar, I can't really comment on this particular case. But, in principal, this leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Now I'm not for all out porn on the site(or any really). But it seems pretty mild when you think(as far as I know) there isn't a single starwars anything, without killing.
It just strikes me as odd that I can spend all day lopping heads and arms off anakin skywalker, but once I come on the forum and see a 70x70 gif showing, oh my god, breast! That this should offend me? Forgive me but I'm a little unimpressed. True I would look at the user that had that as their avatar as a little suspect, maybe a little juvenile, but I think that's a good thing. I know without interacting with that person that we don't see eye to eye on at least one issue.
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Old 03-23-2004, 11:00 AM   #8
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So it would ok for me to use this as an avatar then?...



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Old 03-23-2004, 11:10 AM   #9
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lol


personally i thought gorgan's avatar was harmless, but then thats a male's point of view. if the female's point of view is thats it's offensive then we must respect that.

also i realise that if this avatar was allowed then the problem is where to draw the line.
if you rule it all out then there's no room for argument. but if you allow this, then its human nature for people to see how far they can go bending the rules without breaking them.
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Old 03-23-2004, 11:10 AM   #10
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If anybody finds an avatar offensive for any reason then it should be removed.

I've seen people here try to get away with using pictures of Hitler or Stalin, or Nazi symbology,.. and that's not cool either.

In the end it's only an avatar, and not being able to use it is definately not the end of the world. There's plenty of forums where if you want to use an avatar like that no one's going to say anything, and you're free to take it there.

But if someone here says "Yo! Not here!" then take it down, get over it, and grow up.


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Old 03-23-2004, 11:13 AM   #11
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lmao

I actually agree with the women. Would you want your penis on the internet bouncing up and down for the world to see and laugh at you for coughwhatever reaoncough? I imagine that's what it's like for them.

And frankly, it's not your forum. What the admins choose, is what will be.
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Old 03-23-2004, 12:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by leXX
So it would ok for me to use this as an avatar then?...

I don't think it's really fair to compare the two, I see breast everyday, sometimes bouncing. If a woman stood on a street and jumped up and down she wouldn't get arrested. Now if I could make my penis jump around in my bvd's like that and chose to do so it in public, I would. For instance in your avatar I can see it's cleavage, yet no one says anything. Now if I had a picture of a guy in speedo's showing cleavage from his man-root I'd expect to garner a diffrent reaction.

Anyway I still say this is silly since neither the games or the movie are pristine. The starwars universe has slaves, drugs, genocide, gungans, and run of the mill murder, plenty of things, in my book that are more offensive than someone's juvenile avatar.

I don't know, maybe I'm the one that overreacting? I just don't like the trend I've noticed; everyone becoming more and more thin skined.
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Old 03-23-2004, 03:21 PM   #13
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i just like to say a female breast is a secondary sexual attribute, while a penis is a primary one.

also, wobbling or not is not a question either, not for a penis, breast nor vagina (which would be the "correct" opposite to penis).

i now many girls who actually like female breasts and are in no way offended by it or find it degrading, no matter if shown wobbling, naked or err.. in any "normal" sexual context and as long as it is on the "bright side of life" and without prices printed on it. cutting it of would be offending or degrading..

but jumpy boobs are not degrading women nor are 'rotating' penises degrading men. it probably just does mean someone is running after the bus.

NOT an appropriate avatar? .. hmm. depends, but discussable.


lexx.. doing this without moving the rest of the body= all mens dream


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Old 03-23-2004, 04:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by leXX
I didn't say he wasn't presenting his views in a civilized manner. I simply will not bother having a discussion with a sexist, because anything I say will fall on deaf ears, and would be a complete waste of my time.
Please leave the personal predisposition crap you carry, in the trash where it belongs. Here's the inside scoop - if this was as personal as you make it out to be, I usually wouldn't give your opinion the time of day just because you are who you present yourself to be, however I have to, because someone somewhere gave you the position of authority (which was justified to the one who gave it to you I guess - but don't worry, we'll come back to that).

So don't flatter yourself to be any better than me woman, because your farts doesn't smell any more like flowers than mine do.

Okay? Thanks.

Quote:
That comment was immature. A man's chest is not a sexual part of his body
I thank you for trying to teach me what is sexual and what is not. Here's some inside fact - I've been having sex since I was 11 years old (for those ignorant to biology - that's two to three years permaturely before males are sexually ready to procreate) - so I think I can safely say that I've had enough training in what is sexual and what isn't (btw, the fact I had sex prematurely doesn't necessarily mean it was rape - only by law). Now I don't know what your experiences are like - but the true inside scoop is that you have no idea what it's like to be a man and therefore are not qualified to judge werther the tip of my toenail is sexual or isn't. In my experience, it _is_ sexual, and since I'm a man I can stand by that fact. See - if what you say is true, then I can say that female breasts are not sexual. But we're giving you the benefit of the doubt (because it has been documented that female breasts are a sexual object) so we're considering it as a sexual thing.

Get your facts straight.

Quote:
It is hard enough for the women in this forum to feel comfortable as it is. We are faced with many stereotypes such as we are rubbish at games, don't like Star Wars, we must be ugly to be posting here etc etc. A picture of bouncing boobs belittles us further. It is a symbol of male dominance, which says one thing, women are nothing but sexual objects to be gawked at.
Ah, there we are. The real reason. Let me break it down to you.

a) You are not the authority on how women feel on this forum - however I would like to hear from other women on this forum that are /not/ your friends, and do not feel that loyalty to ride the same ship you do (see I get to do that because I as a male am the accused one here as the rest of the males on this forum of being women abusers )
b) You are not the authority on deciding for all women on this forum how they feel about their gaming abilities, skills or looks
c) You are not the authority on what is or is not a symbol of male dominance (because you obviously don't understand the concept) and what it is trying to say

Now that we broke down the fact that you are indeed not the ruler of this universe, we can safely say that you don't have a point. You only have your opinions which are, to be perfectly honest, not found on anything but your own (horrific as they may be) experiences and the fact that you haven't been schooled enough in the art (yes, I meant to say art) that is the human body. As far as human feelings go in accordance to the human body - in this case the female human body - you can ONLY speak for yourself. The fact that you see yourself as a sexual object for males to gawk at (which is, by the way, true for a big part of this community, supporting your point - but you generalize so I get to kill it) , inept in your skills to hold a game - that's your problem.
You don't see me bitching and whining how females are getting better grades in schools because they are _females_ and how I see them turn on the waterworks to get their grade changed (that's a fact, I've witnessed it MORE than once, and as I've been told other people have) or how the only reason you ever qualified to be a moderator was the fact that you are popular, and the reason you are popular is because you're a female in a male infested community (and you know it, since you obviously hold the male world associated with gawking at you because of your breasts - good call).

Let's continue, shall we?

Quote:
It is also inapropriate for this forum. We have a certain standard to maintain seeing as there are a high number of younger members. Allowing an avatar like that can lead to a number of other similar avatars, and this is a family forum (the Star Wars forum at least).
Okay, forum/family values. No. You can't say "still boobs are okay, but bouncing ones aren't" and still play the "inapropriate" harp. That's like laughing and then saying "No, it's not funny". Also may I REMIND you that the Star Wars universe is gruesome as well as sexual in itself (you might want to reference YOUR OWN AYALA SECURA THREAD IN YOUR FORUM - which isn't sexual, but downright disturbing because the character is an ailien - therefore of a different species - kind of like trying to insinuate a goat is sexy) - and shot by a live video camera (people were just wearing costumes for the most part - aside from CGI). Here is where you don't have a point about this being a family/good values forum. The bouncing image was an ANIME image (by the way - NOT hentai - I deal a lot with anime and hentai for a website, separating the two, and I _KNOW_ the boundaries) which was drawn by hand.

Oh, and while you're on the "values" concept, why don't you go change the ad's for here - they're mostly for whoring or picking up sexual partners. What's that? You can't change them? So money and keeping this place alive is _more_ important than values? Thought so. Thank god, because I'm all for keeping this place alive by any means necessary, as is apparently the one who pays for the server (although it's not something to be shouted with a megaphone)

Next.

Quote:
Would it be ok to allow a picture of an animated covered bouncing penis? No it wouldn't. And yes, boobs fall into the same category. Both are sexual parts of the body that if presented uncovered on this forum, would be considered porn. Would it be ok to allow a picture of real boobs bouncing up and down? No it wouldn't. The fact that the avatar is a cartoon makes no difference.
Here again you go with the penis. Didn't I tell you above that it just DOESN'T compare? Get the biology straight. It's NOT the same category, and in this instance I don't have to be a woman to realize it because I've had male and female scientists to write books about it for me to read them, backed up by research. Move on, that point was killed by me a long time ago. Also - real boobs that are covered up, bouncing would probably be more amazing than the anime ones - however we're discussing ANIME only here, which is a much lesser charge than the real thing.

Next.

Quote:
I myself have boobs in my avatar, so as you can see, I am not offended by pictures of boobs, so long as they are presented in a decent manner. If someone was to have a picture of just boobs, then I would consider it offensive aswell, for the reasons stated above.
Congratulations - you at least tolerate it to some end, thank god. However now you say that the image of still breasts is offensive, yet it is acceptable? Get on the proper ship, you can't ride two.

Quote:
Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
Having not seen the avatar, I can't really comment on this particular case. But, in principal, this leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Now I'm not for all out porn on the site(or any really). But it seems pretty mild when you think(as far as I know) there isn't a single starwars anything, without killing.
It just strikes me as odd that I can spend all day lopping heads and arms off anakin skywalker, but once I come on the forum and see a 70x70 gif showing, oh my god, breast! That this should offend me? Forgive me but I'm a little unimpressed. True I would look at the user that had that as their avatar as a little suspect, maybe a little juvenile, but I think that's a good thing. I know without interacting with that person that we don't see eye to eye on at least one issue.
Preach

Quote:
Originally posted by Siv
personally i thought gorgan's avatar was harmless, but then thats a male's point of view. if the female's point of view is thats it's offensive then we must respect that.

Ah here we are. The waterworks concept I was describing.

No we don't.

You don't see me screaming how I want to sue Lucas Arts because of the forums "Ayala Secura" thread which deeply disturbs me to no end. Nobody gives a **** about werther I find that, or anything else disturbing or not, unless it's a social history issue. Sorry Siv, but if it doesn't go both ways, it doesn't apply in the real social world. Aren't you women all for equality anyway? If equalibrium doesn't exist on both sides crap like that doesn't apply.

PREACH

Quote:
Originally posted by edlib
If anybody finds an avatar offensive for any reason then it should be removed.

Read above, young grasshopper.

Quote:
Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
I actually agree with the women. Would you want your penis on the internet bouncing up and down for the world to see and laugh at you for coughwhatever reaoncough? I imagine that's what it's like for them.

And frankly, it's not your forum. What the admins choose, is what will be.
Now things like these just piss me off to no end - sorry to get emotional but this just goes on my nerves.

a) Get your schooling straight - stop reading leXX's crap for granted, unless you really feel you are a woman abuser (because if you read more carefully and analyze she actually in her generalistic terms has you pegged for one)

b) Never, EVER EVER state me the obvious. I know what the admins can and can not do. I know it, I respect it. This isn't democracy - this is more like tyranny - but as I said above, members opinions _SHOULD_ count. That is why this thread exists. Read my post, not just the one of the female so you would feel safe and secure and every female would love you.

and I know I stated the obvious above even though I said it nerves me, but some people just need it when they harp without a point

Aside from the replied above, congratulations to some people (you too actually leXX - I was gonna get dissapointed by your first reply) for actually keeping the discussion going.

Now, you may insult me as you see fit.

Oh sorry, one more thing before I go.

Quote:
Originally posted by STTCT
Sorry 2 outta (how many girls that go to the swamp) find it offensive. So I think it should have been removed purely because it could be viewed as Sexual Harrasment by the female forumers of this community.
WHAT? Even if I try to imagine correct spelling - sexual harrasment -

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackDove:
WHAT?


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Old 03-23-2004, 05:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
Oh, and while you're on the "values" concept, why don't you go change the ad's for here - they're mostly for whoring or picking up sexual partners. What's that? You can't change them? So money and keeping this place alive is _more_ important than values? Thought so. Thank god, because I'm all for keeping this place alive by any means necessary, as is apparently the one who pays for the server (although it's not something to be shouted with a megaphone)
As you can see here, we are trying to do something witht he ads.

Quote:
Now things like these just piss me off to no end - sorry to get emotional but this just goes on my nerves.
Likewise.

Quote:
a) Get your schooling straight - stop reading leXX's crap for granted, unless you really feel you are a woman abuser (because if you read more carefully and analyze she actually in her generalistic terms has you pegged for one)
It doesn't really matter if breasts are "second category" sexual classification/whatever. It's still in the sexual category, and not needed here.

Quote:
b) Never, EVER EVER state me the obvious. I know what the admins can and can not do. I know it, I respect it. This isn't democracy - this is more like tyranny - but as I said above, members opinions _SHOULD_ count. That is why this thread exists. Read my post, not just the one of the female so you would feel safe and secure and every female would love you.
I've read every post on here. You're just making a big deal over something that was already settled long ago. The person will survive without his bouncing breast avatar.

And wow, since 11, you're certainly a special little boy arn't you.
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Old 03-23-2004, 05:22 PM   #16
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Yes I am. And discussions can be revisited.

By the way, my friend just told me - would you be insulted if you saw two baby-bottle feeders bouncing?

Guess what - the job of the breast is to feed. Primary function. End of discussion on that front.

Also, sexual things don't belong here? Get some retrospect kid, go visit the RSN or even better, leXX's forum with the stickied Ayala Secura thread and then come to me with the notions of that not belonging in here (or maybe one of the endless "babe" threads).

[edit:] hmm nope, I won't say that because it's not about that right now - maybe next time


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Old 03-23-2004, 06:09 PM   #17
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And this is a civilized discussion? Heh.

Well I really didn't want to waste my breath, but *sigh* it seems I must.

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackDove
[B]Please leave the personal predisposition crap you carry, in the trash where it belongs. Here's the inside scoop - if this was as personal as you make it out to be, I usually wouldn't give your opinion the time of day just because you are who you present yourself to be, however I have to, because someone somewhere gave you the position of authority (which was justified to the one who gave it to you I guess - but don't worry, we'll come back to that).

So don't flatter yourself to be any better than me woman, because your farts doesn't smell any more like flowers than mine do.

Okay? Thanks.
I am neither sexist, racist or homophobic, so believe me, my farts do smell a damn sight sweeter than your foul smelling ones.

Quote:
I thank you for trying to teach me what is sexual and what is not. Here's some inside fact - I've been having sex since I was 11 years old (for those ignorant to biology - that's two to three years permaturely before males are sexually ready to procreate) - so I think I can safely say that I've had enough training in what is sexual and what isn't (btw, the fact I had sex prematurely doesn't necessarily mean it was rape - only by law). Now I don't know what your experiences are like - but the true inside scoop is that you have no idea what it's like to be a man and therefore are not qualified to judge werther the tip of my toenail is sexual or isn't. In my experience, it _is_ sexual, and since I'm a man I can stand by that fact. See - if what you say is true, then I can say that female breasts are not sexual. But we're giving you the benefit of the doubt (because it has been documented that female breasts are a sexual object) so we're considering it as a sexual thing.

Get your facts straight.
You contradict yourself. You say I am not a man therefore I am not qualified to tell you which part of a mans body is sexual or not. You are not a woman, so you are not qualified to tell me what part of my body is sexual or not. And this leads into another point. You are not a woman, so nothing gives you the right to say what is offensive to a women or not. This one point alone moots everything you say, but I will continue nethertheless.

Quote:
Ah, there we are. The real reason. Let me break it down to you.

a) You are not the authority on how women feel on this forum - however I would like to hear from other women on this forum that are /not/ your friends, and do not feel that loyalty to ride the same ship you do (see I get to do that because I as a male am the accused one here as the rest of the males on this forum of being women abusers )
No, I'm certainly not the authority on how women feel in this forum. They have and will express their own opinions on this, I'm sure, and I, unlike you, will respect that opinion. Trying to say that anyone who agrees with me on this is only doing so because they feel some sort of loyalty to me is weak.

Quote:
b) You are not the authority on deciding for all women on this forum how they feel about their gaming abilities, skills or looks
I was talking about stereotypes. What the hell are you talking about?

Quote:
c) You are not the authority on what is or is not a symbol of male dominance (because you obviously don't understand the concept) and what it is trying to say
No, I think it is you who does not understand the concept of male dominance. Perhaps you should look it up.

Quote:
Now that we broke down the fact that you are indeed not the ruler of this universe, we can safely say that you don't have a point.
That must mean that you are indeed the ruler of this universe, and only your point matters right?

Quote:
You only have your opinions which are, to be perfectly honest, not found on anything but your own (horrific as they may be) experiences and the fact that you haven't been schooled enough in the art (yes, I meant to say art) that is the human body.
No, I know nothing about the human body, and I have two kids to prove it.

Quote:
As far as human feelings go in accordance to the human body - in this case the female human body - you can ONLY speak for yourself. The fact that you see yourself as a sexual object for males to gawk at (which is, by the way, true for a big part of this community, supporting your point - but you generalize so I get to kill it) , inept in your skills to hold a game - that's your problem.
The whole point is that I do not see myself as a sexual object for males to gawk at. I guess you missed that.

Quote:
You don't see me bitching and whining how females are getting better grades in schools because they are _females_ and how I see them turn on the waterworks to get their grade changed (that's a fact, I've witnessed it MORE than once, and as I've been told other people have)
You just did.

Quote:
or how the only reason you ever qualified to be a moderator was the fact that you are popular, and the reason you are popular is because you're a female in a male infested community (and you know it, since you obviously hold the male world associated with gawking at you because of your breasts - good call).
And there we have it. The only reason I was given the position of moderator is the fact that I'm female right? No other reason at all. How very...what's the word...sexist.

Quote:
Let's continue, shall we?



Okay, forum/family values. No. You can't say "still boobs are okay, but bouncing ones aren't" and still play the "inapropriate" harp. That's like laughing and then saying "No, it's not funny". Also may I REMIND you that the Star Wars universe is gruesome as well as sexual in itself (you might want to reference YOUR OWN AYALA SECURA THREAD IN YOUR FORUM - which isn't sexual, but downright disturbing because the character is an ailien - therefore of a different species - kind of like trying to insinuate a goat is sexy) - and shot by a live video camera (people were just wearing costumes for the most part - aside from CGI). Here is where you don't have a point about this being a family/good values forum.
I can say bouncing boobs are inappropriate and still ones aren't, because bouncing boobs, as you've said yourself, are purposefully drawing your attention to them, which gives the avatar one purpose and one purpose only, "look boobs!".

Quote:
The bouncing image was an ANIME image (by the way - NOT hentai - I deal a lot with anime and hentai for a website, separating the two, and I _KNOW_ the boundaries) which was drawn by hand.
Like I said before, animated or real, makes no difference.

Quote:
Oh, and while you're on the "values" concept, why don't you go change the ad's for here - they're mostly for whoring or picking up sexual partners. What's that? You can't change them? So money and keeping this place alive is _more_ important than values? Thought so. Thank god, because I'm all for keeping this place alive by any means necessary, as is apparently the one who pays for the server (although it's not something to be shouted with a megaphone)
I have no more control over the adverts here than you. It' up to the admins to change them. Same way I have no control over the outcome of this thread. If they decide the bouncing boobs stay, so be it. I do however agree with you about the content of the adverts. I do find it laughable that you so strongly object to adverts about whoring or picking up sexual partners, but at the same time argue about this.

Quote:
Next.



Here again you go with the penis. Didn't I tell you above that it just DOESN'T compare? Get the biology straight. It's NOT the same category, and in this instance I don't have to be a woman to realize it because I've had male and female scientists to write books about it for me to read them, backed up by research. Move on, that point was killed by me a long time ago. Also - real boobs that are covered up, bouncing would probably be more amazing than the anime ones - however we're discussing ANIME only here, which is a much lesser charge than the real thing.

Next.
So you've had male and female scientists write books about it for you, backed up by research. Riiiiiiight. I admit, in todays society, boobs are regarded as a lesser sexual object than a penis. This doesn't change the fact that they are still sexual objects nethertheless.


Quote:
Congratulations - you at least tolerate it to some end, thank god. However now you say that the image of still breasts is offensive, yet it is acceptable? Get on the proper ship, you can't ride two.
Why don't you actually read what I posted? I said an image of just breasts would be just as offensive, because they would serve the same purpose.



Quote:
Preach
Only people who hold themselves in a higher regard to everyone else, feels they have the right to preach. Kinda funny that, seeing as you accused me of thinking that I held myself in a higher regard than everyone else.



Quote:
a) Get your schooling straight - stop reading leXX's crap for granted, unless you really feel you are a woman abuser (because if you read more carefully and analyze she actually in her generalistic terms has you pegged for one)
I don't have anyone pegged for a woman abuser apart from you, so don't think you can speak for me thank you very much.

Quote:
Aside from the replied above, congratulations to some people (you too actually leXX - I was gonna get dissapointed by your first reply) for actually keeping the discussion going.
That statement reeks of arrogance.


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Old 03-23-2004, 08:46 PM   #18
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Since BlackDove here has decided to act like a male chauvinistic pig, I feel no reason to act civilized in my following criticism. Fair warning.

As a male staffer of this joint, I think it's imporant to echo the resentment of the bouncing-breasts avatar. It's quite obvious that this is a unisex board (despite a high male population). If we get complaints from female users who feel offended, we deal with it. We respect all members of our forums, and if they have a problem, we accomodate them. It's been well known around the regulars of Yoda's Swamp that this particular avatar is not allowed.

The posts above have shown that certain people refuse to give up their opinions.

BlackDove, your opinions on breasts are meaningless. Frankly, I don't give a damn about your stories of having sex when you were 11, which isn't related to this topic. The concensus among the staff is that this avatar is not allowed - you're welcome to question, but you're not welcome to be a sexist asshat. Saying that leXX was chosen to be on our staff due to her gender is completely uncalled for, and your disregard for the members who have voiced their opinions in this thread is not welcome. If I see you insulting my fellow staffers and community members with your sexist attitudes one more time, I will impose a ban, length determined by the administration of this forum.

Y'hear? Any more mindless bitching going on in this thread, and I will close it.
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Old 03-23-2004, 11:25 PM   #19
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Yeah, I knew I was going out on a limb stating my... ehh - founded opinions?, so yeah I knew that attacking a staffer - being a lowly member myself, was probably going to get me banned. After all, having negative thoughts of someone who represents the model pattern of behaviour isn't nice to have around, especially if there isn't hardcore proof. Striking though that she can call me racist and homophobic, which is unfounded, yet I'm the one getting warnings.

In any case, the only reason I went at your staffer was to prove a point, (see below). This wasn't out of hate or spite, nor out of wish to insult anyone. If I did I truely apologuise.

Anyway, if we are to revert to the original question, I was asking why was the descision made about that avatar. People are free to resent the bouncing-breasts avatar (of course), but by creating this thread I was questioning "why?" the administration/moderation who voted on banning the avatar, chose to do so.

So in the end - when leXX just above made a point that *men can't define what's insulting to a woman, then what were the men (and here I'm assuming a big number of the voting cabinet) thinking when they voted "yes, it's inapropriate"?

How do you decide? Jed, you said you deal with things as members complain to it, so how many people (women in this case) are needed to make a thing offensive?

I hope that question wasn't sexist/bashful/abusive. It wasn't meant to be, in any case.

Also, another question - am I allowed to ask questions like these?

After all, curiosity killed the cat...

*=By the way, the people who want to say, "But she was just arguing that to show how you contradicted yourself." - due to the fact that sexuality and offenses aren't connected as infinitives (there is sexual offensivness, but then again there are a lot of other sexual things) - that was her own point, not mine.

I didn't contradict myself, she contradicted me, because I said myself that I am not one to decide which part of a female is sexual for the female - the exact thing she repeated.


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Old 03-23-2004, 11:59 PM   #20
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Well I'm going to try an experiment. Let's see what kind of reaction I get from the male users of this forum. Let's see what they think of my new avi.


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Old 03-24-2004, 12:18 AM   #21
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I personally have no problem with the bouncing boobs and can't help but feel like some of the females round here might be slightly over-reacting... I would definately not be offended by a rotating penis in a female dominated community. The avatar (if I'm thinknig of the right one) was light-hearted and was probably intended for a bit of humour. As soon as this place clamps down on not-so-serious sexual or non sexual humour then it isn't worth coming here.

Of course though, if people are really offended then it shouldn't be allowed but I believe BD shouldn't be getting a warning just for expressing his views.... even if he comes off as a rascist, sexist or whatever. He may have a string whiff of arrogance around him and a few daft claims about members of staff but the discussion is on the Bouncing Boobs... not him.
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Old 03-24-2004, 12:26 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by STTCT
Well I'm going to try an experiment. Let's see what kind of reaction I get from the male users of this forum. Let's see what they think of my new avi.
I'm sorry, but that just cracks me up to NO end. And I wish I had as big a package as he does.


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Old 03-24-2004, 12:30 AM   #23
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Everytime the word 'sexual' is used to describe an issue, the issue becomes controversial. The point is not that it was sexually offensive, it's that it is simply offensive.

If any member were to complain to me of an offensive avatar, I would take it into consideration. If it was indeed offensive (within reason), I would ask the user to remove it, then warn the user if he didn't respond, and finally, I would remove it myself.

I hope that my staff would do the same...and look at that, they did.

This argument is pointless.


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Old 03-24-2004, 12:34 AM   #24
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Well look at that - the avi has been removed

No boobs and No penus's

Guess everything is fairly just.


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Old 03-24-2004, 12:49 AM   #25
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I like to be consistent, and although no one immediately found it offensive, I thought it conflicted with the idea of a PG forum.

Also, the fact that you wish you "had as big a package as he does" is kind of sad, BlackDove.


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Old 03-24-2004, 01:03 AM   #26
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Hey, I make due with what I've got.

PG forum. Well, the stuff we write on here most of the time is R rated. Naturally if that's your goal, you make due, but on what criteria do you think that avatar was above PG? I see anime with a lot more revealing, things bouncing all over, being kinda accessible to kids, n'stuff.


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Old 03-24-2004, 01:21 AM   #27
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Pictures are worth 1000 words. I haven't read anything R rated that comes right out and says sexually explicit things.

If anything there are a lot of innuendos (sp) here but nothing completely and bluntly "explicit"

Sure there are lots of anime out there with sexually explicit things in them - that's where you can go to see the anime bouncing boobs. But here - we come to talk Lucas Arts Games and anything else is just a bonus.


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Old 03-24-2004, 01:23 AM   #28
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The idea of a PG forum is the guideline that those higher than I go by and bid the rest of us to abide by.

Generally, we use our own ideas of what is appropriate for kids to view. If a parent looks over their child's shoulder and sees a pair of breasts in motion...well, our goal is to stop that kind of thing from happening, because we care about all of our users, regardless of age.

You seemed to imply in your earlier posts that the administration doesn't value the opinion of the members, but in fact, the opposite is true. We act on the knowledge that there are younger members, that there are some sensitive members, but not that there are admittedly sexist members. What it boils down to is that your opinion is skewed no matter how 'objective' you attempt to be.

What qualifies an anime movie as PG does not qualify this forum as such. Have a look at the name. Look at the antiquated banner. Is this an anime forum?


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Old 03-24-2004, 01:34 AM   #29
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Err - read my first post - I made the argument the admins do value people's opinions - it was just in referance to leXX - "You have something to say, we don't care" policy.

In any case, I am fully able to accept the fact that those kinds of avatars are removed so that very young children would be protected (although I can't agree with the notion that kind of an avatar is bad for children), but that's an allright reason.

What I am not able to accept, is that anyone who found that avatar to be amusing, very well made, and nice - and I was one of the people who found it all those things, to be labeled as women abusers/insulters and sexists, as your assistant pointed out.


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Old 03-24-2004, 01:41 AM   #30
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heh.
I was going to write a long thread, but after losing the page (after quoting 15 posts worth of text) I really can't be bothered to try again.

In short;

BD originally started off quite civilised.

Lexx's first reply was typical feminist defencive reactions. (I will quote if forced too)

I'd also liked to add I know exactly what avatar is being talked about since it's been everywhere, and, it's not sexist, heh, it's as Ecchi (perverted) as some anime gets.

If it were included in an animated program, providing things didn't progress from it, the program would be rated, a PG.
Yea, PG.
For UNDER TWELVES as well as Over Twelves.

Anime is decidedly Ecchi as it is, it was done that way because it was originally branded childish, animes like Akira rebel from that image and always push as far as they can.

Degrading to women?
LOL, Watch AppleSeed, or Ghost in the Shell, Women play lead roles, and often are portrayed doing the same jobs as men (including lifting trucks and stuff in some animes or ultraviolence, etc, etc, female directors, etc), anime is less sexist than any other cinematic production media, with the simple exception of fanservice.

Onward, my point about the avatar is, I would say LEXXs avatar is more suggestive/sexual than the bouncing anime one.

Lexxs second reply commenting on how the chest is not a sexual part of a mans body - lies.
The chest is often refered to as a "sexy" part of a mans body.
Do you seriously want to go down the road where NO FLESH can be shown, and nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with even POTENTIAL sexual reference (because BDs pic does have some sexual reference in it though it is much deeper than you could guess from a simple picture) is allowed?

better get rid of your avatar then.

So far as the first two replies from the "super mod" go, they strike me as hypocritical and contradicting, which is wonderful since she accuses BD himself of being contradicting later on (though admittedly it does look like he would be).

If edlibs comments were to be addressed no nationalist signatures/avatars would be allowed either (check his avatar).

SWP is actually right, admins do get their way, obviously.
But, that's about it.

As to the need of the thread;
Would it not be constructive to publicly set out lines of how conservative this forum is going to be? or, is it, as it appears to be, simply run as a shambles where personal (biased) moderator oppinions run the ropes without input?

I normally do do this much more reasoned and thoroughly but as I said above I can't be bothered due to IE Illegal op :P
Lexx ~ If you didn't come across as such as (sorry) "soccer mum"(mom?), it probably wouldn't be as much of an issue, but you agrivated the point yourself.
Your very, first, post, was a FLAME.
Very first reply from a "Super Moderator" -- was a FLAME.

On the forum where I am currently moderator/admin staff, the thread would have been closed, or edited out here, and the topic reviewed again in a different light in private.
And potentially that moderator losing their position, simply because sexual bias and oversensativity IS NOT Behaviour becoming of a moderator, nor an admin.

Just a little FYI for you if you were going to seriously go down the road of male dominated world, Lexx.

In england girls get considerably better grades then guys on average at GCSE and A Level, this is because up until the last two years of education, teachers/courses were actually orientated and engineered in a way that put females at a natural advantage over males.
This was an over-correction the government made in an attempt to stop so many girls dropping out and getting pregnant in the previous decades (IIRC this started in 1988... though I couldn't give you a 100% on that one).
You do realise that whilst statistically women do earn less and are in lesser positions because they feel /pressured/ to look after children, or tend the household, etc, this is because of programs they/their friends watch and the way their PARENTS brought them up.

~~
It's completely possible for women to attain the same positions as men in this world, completely possible, just that, as most of my female friends (whom several are very successful market/advertising managers or shrinks(my college specialised in these fields)), most women wuss out, or feel that they can't ignore their "internal system" and feel that "their time is running out." -- Stupid things, worries about never having kids.

Things men are more likely to ignore.

Jeds post I'm not going to address since it didn't actually interject any material -- just more moderator flames on BD.

Matt-Windu, you seem to be being reasonable, except the lack of sarcasm detection;
As I said earlier, the image you are discussing, is, quite solidly, PG.
You actually see, nekkid, full blown, animated, and "felt up" nipplage in one of the more famous/well known animes~
Evangelion Neon Genesis.
That episode is rated a 15, if not it's a 12. (I'd have to go get the vid...)

Meh.
Not bad for a first post, at least I didn't out right flame, but sorry about my general laziness, it probably makes my posts seem somewhat less valid.

.
(This is the point where 20 people start thinking to themselves ....oh crap....its QD.....)


edit;
Matt - didn't see that "PG anime not PG here" comment (I was posting during it heh).

remind me what rating the LEXX Series had? 15? 18?
I would spend some time noting down avatars that are not PG (I will promise you even if this forum is mainly anime ava's, there will be more non-PG non-Anime ones, than non-PG Anime ones).

If the continent wide European TV/Movie Age listings -- people who are qualified, to do so, don't rate something as above PG I don't really see it as this forum rating something above PG I see it as feminist(in this specific case) views forcing over conservative positions.
It was discussed with other moderators, but, heh, I would rather see that discussion done by the moderators in public because instantly a few images pop into my mind as to how that discussion went.


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Old 03-24-2004, 01:48 AM   #31
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Ah, my knight in shining armor.

Don't look at me, I just told him to read it, although he makes the point much better than me.


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Old 03-24-2004, 01:53 AM   #32
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I side with the females on this one. I can see how it would degrade women and make them feel like they are nothing more than sex buddies. Personally however, I feel that you've insulted the majority of the members and that is the reason that Lexx made that comment that has gotten you all... worried I suppose.

Bye bye avatar.




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Old 03-24-2004, 01:54 AM   #33
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I give up.
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:59 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Windu
I side with the females on this one. I can see how it would degrade women and make them feel like they are nothing more than sex buddies.
Can you guide me through that, obviously extensive, train of thought?

How do you get from Bouncing-animated-clothed-woman-with-big-breasts to sex buddies?


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Old 03-24-2004, 02:15 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by leXX
Wow, someone really likes that avatar don't they?

And so begins "the boobgate scandal".

I for one will not have a discuission with someone who is admitidly a sexist, but I will say that if the general opinion of this forum is the same as yours, I won't bother returning.
Is it sexist to like breasts? Well, cartoon breasts are childish...but still. Feminists piss me off. Why? Because they always think that they are getting degraded when men are being put down on the same way by women. Hypo-biggot-crytes.





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Old 03-24-2004, 02:22 AM   #36
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I'll level with all of you, I personally have no problem with the bouncing smilie, but again, that's a guy's perspective. They were just a fad when they originally popped up en mass, and like so many other avatar fads, it would have faded away in good time.

The general consensus among my staffers seemed to be that the users felt it was offensive, and as I'm no where near as active as I once was, I took that as an objective assessment. If I was mistaken to assume such a thing, now is the proper time to admit that.

Given all the facts, and all the points you've made, I'll appeal to the numbers.

Here's what we're going to do...
  • I'm going to move this to the JK.net feedback forum
  • I'm going to let each opposing side start a thread there
  • Post only once in either of the threads to show support for your side
  • Only users with over 300 posts will be counted. This is to prevent either side from registering additional users to effectively stuff the ballot.
  • Do not in anyway spam, trick, or otherwise coerce other users into posting. Label the thread clearly.
  • The polls close on Friday, March 26th, at 6 PM EST.

That seems the fairest way to conduct things at this point.


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Old 03-24-2004, 03:52 AM   #37
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When the purpose of the avatar is only to watch the boobs rock up and down, it can make a woman feel a bit meaningless when you don't pay attention to her but her little buddies.

The reason still boobs are accepted is because most of the time they are not the point of the avatar. Look at Lexx's Aayla avatar. Sure, it has boobs. But it does not demean the woman by flagrantly bouncing up and down.

EDIT: It may seem sexist, but no, it's not sexist to like boobs. It's just when you pay more attention to boobs than women...

EDIT AGAIN: I respect the opinions of the male members who find nothing wrong with the avatar. I knew as soon as I saw it that the avatar would cause trouble. Frankly, sexual objects depicted as the "main attaction" will be and always will be determined as something not to be allowed.

A) No one has the authority to discern what is right and wrong for the entire forums. Each forumer has his or her own opinions and while these are respected, it would also be wrong to ignore the avatar because in this particular forum, it is viewed as offensive and can be deemed sexual harrassment. Sexual harrassment is speaking or doing something that makes a person feel sexually uncomfortable. I can assure you some women would find that an uncomfortable situation. Therefore it is the jurisdiction of the moderators/administrators to ban this avatar because it causes a problem.
B) Please do not demean the opinions or posts of others in a way that would make them feel inferior to yourself. This presents the topic in question in an awful manner, since it is based solely on opinion, yet you kill the opinions of others?
C) Lexx and Shann make good points. The purpose of the avatar as I have stated already is the boobs of the girl. If the picture did not focus on the boobs sorely as an entertainment value it would be deemed alright I would suppose.

My 2 cents. And no, I'm not here to support Lexx. I think she makes a good point and I can understand why Shann and her would feel that way. (mmmm I'm way too feminine for my own good)




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Last edited by Mike Windu; 03-24-2004 at 04:55 AM.
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Old 03-24-2004, 07:51 AM   #38
QuantumDelta
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Quote:
Originally posted by Acrylic
Is it sexist to like breasts? Well, cartoon breasts are childish...but still. Feminists piss me off. Why? Because they always think that they are getting degraded when men are being put down on the same way by women. Hypo-biggot-crytes.
I think, in a nutshell, that's what this thread was about, Acrylic.

Matt - Though as you can tell I am new around here, it should be fairly obvious I'm no one's second account, if only from the totally non-masked IP/etc. Wanted to say that just before I made my point to ya.

Although this isn't my thread, BD did spend a while trying to learn more than a few things from me... and, Although it looks like he's campaigning for the "rights to use one particular avatar" on this forum, I very much doubt (though I could be wrong) that this was his actual intention, in all honesty I doubt he cares about the avatar at all, but that his point is somewhere between Acrlyics and my own.

Is your forum becoming too conservative in it's moderators views of what is acceptable? ~
With problems like these facing todays youth, I hardly expect a pair of animated as in not real bouncing breasts is going to worsen anything.
Those kids are worse than I currently have ever been, and, I'm 20, they're 1/5 my age.

Mike - as I said, that's personal preference, I find lexx's avatar more likely to affend, but then again, I'm a rather seasoned anime fan.
I dispise hentai.
It's interesting to note that BD didn't want me to post in this thread when I was first shown it, mostly because he figured I would "defend the ladies rights" ~ Well, normally I do, and, normally I would, however in this case I would refer you to acrylics post again.
The people that dislike it are either being;
Over protective of stupidly sensative people.
Over conservative.
Or Feminist (baka...).

I may post more later.

Ja ne ^^


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Old 03-24-2004, 09:53 AM   #39
leXX
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Quote:
Originally posted by Acrylic
Is it sexist to like breasts?
When did I ever say it was sexist to like breasts? Why don't you actually read a thread before you post in it.

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackDove
and even though I am a sexist

Quote:
Originally posted by Acrylic
Feminists piss me off.
Feminists only piss off sexists. Guess that's thier job eh? Heh.

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackDove
Striking though that she can call me racist and homophobic, which is unfounded, yet I'm the one getting warnings.
When did I call you racist and homophobic?

...

A lot of words are being put into my mouth aren't they?

...


Anyway, I won't bother replying to the rest of it, because quite franky, I would just be repeating myself, and this thread has always been pointless.

Go ahead and have your bouncing boobs if you feel so strongly about it, but I will have every right to have my clothed wobbling penis avatar if that's the case (and STTCT will have every right to have her penis avatar), and then we will see how far everyone will take it, and we will see just how pathetic this place can and will become. If you want to spend the rest of your forum life looking at bouncing boobs and woobling penis's, so be it.

Yes, I'm being childish, no more so than the avatar's themselves.



Oh, and I'd like to thank Jed for realising that I'm being attacked simply because I'm female. =)


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Last edited by leXX; 03-24-2004 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 03-24-2004, 10:13 AM   #40
wassup
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Since nobody has posted it yet, here is the link to the particular picture of this controversy. Keep in mind it may be offensive, but that's the whole point of this discussion anyways. Ultimately, the judgement of whether it is appropriate for this discussion is up to the mods, though the opinion of others should be taken into account.
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