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Old 04-29-2004, 07:13 PM   #1
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Is God's power really finite?

I thought of this when I was remembering about how Sunday was created for God to rest on after his six days of work. Now..wouldn't he require no days, just a "poof" and the world would be created? If he has to work, then his power is ultimately infinitely more finite than everyone says...which means he isn't the Omega, not the Alpha, because the bible indirectly says that his power is limited, and that he cannot control time.

What do you guys think about this? Do I have a point, or have I had one too many of Rhett's jawa juices?



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Old 04-29-2004, 07:32 PM   #2
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What do you guys think about this? Do I have a point, or have I had one too many of Rhett's jawa juices?
Probably jk of course

Umm I wouldn't really know, but does it really matter if He has infinite powers or not? Also, if He has infinite powers, why would he create us, humans,? Also, I think the point of Him not controlling time is to let the humans learn from it.

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Old 04-29-2004, 07:48 PM   #3
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Well If he is really an all powerful being he should be able to have infinite power, thus making him an all powerful being. And If he is the ultimate, then he should able to have infinite power. Or atleast that's my take on ultimate power. I could be wrong though, after all, I'm only human.


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Old 04-30-2004, 06:40 AM   #4
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Re: Is God's power really finite?

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Originally posted by Tyrion
I thought of this when I was remembering about how Sunday was created for God to rest on after his six days of work. Now..wouldn't he require no days, just a "poof" and the world would be created? If he has to work, then his power is ultimately infinitely more finite than everyone says...which means he isn't the Omega, not the Alpha, because the bible indirectly says that his power is limited, and that he cannot control time.
if 'god' really creates he would have done better. also i see no reason why he should have stopped "creating". why doesnt he create all the time, and on all the planets?
i am not saying that there is not somebody/-thing who/what could be perceived as "god" and is reasonably causing things which are causing "reality" as we know it. but it shurely is not created on purpose.
in other words: "god" must "obey" the laws of the reality it has "created" if it wants to "take action" within that "reality". so "god" must obey the laws of space-time too. also no matter if "creation" or "cause" both "happenings" need time to "exist". both are an expression of changings within a time.
what is "control of time" anyways? there's no control panel or whatever. and what to control? speed of time? time has no speed. because time is taken to define speed. how can time have a speed itself then? err.. but i'm drifting off, since that's not the question here.



however, too bad i have no 2000 year old book to support this theory(?). maybe if i wait a bit.


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Old 04-30-2004, 10:02 AM   #5
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hella cool sig rayjones!


alright, my opinion about the whole rest on the seventh day can come from several aspects. first of all, it happened a long time ago and has been translated through the ages. who knows? it might actually be longer than seven days. because IF a superior being is in existence, what is a day to him? and secondly, a lot of the basis for christianity comes from the greeks, who believed that their gods were superior with powers, but there were just like humans if you can follow that logic.




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Old 04-30-2004, 08:41 PM   #6
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a lot of the basis for christianity comes from the greeks,

no.. not really.

He does still creat, arent people still being born?

"God is not haphazard; he planned it all with great precision. The more physicists, biologists, and other scientists learn about the universe, the better we can understand how it is uniquely suited for our existence, custom-made with the exact specifications that make human life possible."

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He is omnipotent. Your not so you dont understand.
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Old 04-30-2004, 09:23 PM   #7
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Your not so you dont understand.
This is probably true.

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Old 04-30-2004, 09:52 PM   #8
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He does still creat, arent people still being born?
That doesn't prove anything, we now know that we're born because of a sperm and an egg combining to make a zygot.

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He is omnipotent. Your not so you dont understand.
But the Bible was made for us humans to understand, right? So we understand that it took him 6 days to create the earth...thusly, his power is finite(unless he made the writers of the bible say this, so that 2000 years later I will write about this, to write against him..gah, I feel like I'm Agent Smith. )

(And mennonite, most of your posts seem to be so vague and indefinite, I'd like to hear your honest opinion..)



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Old 04-30-2004, 09:55 PM   #9
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a lot of the basis of christianity comes from the greeks
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
no.. not really
Actually, you're both right. Alot of Christian beliefs are based off of other religions. The Holy Trinity(Father, Son, Ghost) is based off of the Egyptian Trinity(Ra, Horus, and I forgot the other one). The Christian Devil is depected similar to a Wiccan god(forgot which one), a religion that is nearly opposite of Christianity, but centuries older than Judaism(Its not witchcraft, its nature), which is the bases of all monotheist religions.
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Old 04-30-2004, 10:25 PM   #10
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hmmm... theres no proof about the Egyptain stuff

How do you know that it came from the egyptain religion, or the wiccan religion? I might do something one way, and someone else does it the same way, and has for longer than me. Does that mean I am copying them? No.

Just because Christianity wasnt written down first, or embraced first, doesnt mean it has been copied, or stolen. The bible tells us that no one really worshiped God for a while... err.. well, i guess not on any serious level (like walking with God, day by day) Obviously, other people would have other ideas. After the flood, one of Noah's sons founded Egypt (or his descendents did.) They obviously knew about God. People twist things. You cant assume that just because something comes before something else, thats simular, that, that thing copied it.
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Old 04-30-2004, 10:59 PM   #11
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
People twist things. You cant assume that just because something comes before something else, thats simular, that, that thing copied it.
I'm amazed that you firmly believe in the bible, if you feel that people twist things. No matter if it was divine intervention or not, people had a part in writing the Bible.



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Old 04-30-2004, 11:11 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Just because Christianity wasnt written down first, or embraced first, doesnt mean it has been copied, or stolen. The bible tells us that no one really worshiped God for a while... err.. well, i guess not on any serious level (like walking with God, day by day) .
I dont understand how people would ever come to make up other gods and stuff if the tale of creation is true. I mean, God only made two humans, and they had MET God...so....wouldn't they be like, no man, God is the one, I freakin MET him.



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Old 05-01-2004, 12:25 AM   #13
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I think people don't understand that you can both be a good christian and wondering how this and that came into the Bible.
They seem to obey to anything blindly without asking questions whatsoever.

No flaming intented.


Anyway, I guess Adam and Eve's children started drifting away from the "right" path and I don't know, maybe "created" other Gods.


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Old 05-01-2004, 12:37 AM   #14
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Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
I think people don't understand that you can both be a good christian and wondering how this and that came into the Bible.
They seem to obey to anything blindly without asking questions whatsoever.
I know what you mean, I still really at heart consider myself christian, but I have to question alot of the practices and things in the Bible.



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Old 05-01-2004, 01:02 AM   #15
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if 'god' really creates he would have done better. also i see no reason why he should have stopped "creating". why doesnt he create all the time, and on all the planets?
Well look at it this way, if the earth was moved a couple degrees toward the sun it would burn up, and in the other direction it would freeze. That seems pretty good to me! plus how evaporation happens, how life is made, how our bodies work without us having comtrol over it, thats some pretty good creating. I mean come on lokk at how light pierces darkness, thats pretty friggin' cool.

And to the topic at hand, yes God has infinate power. I beleive that God chose to create the earth in 7 days for a reason, for which i'm not sure.(let me do some researching)Plus God could've have made everthing in one day if H wanted to, He just decided not to!
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I dont understand how people would ever come to make up other gods and stuff if the tale of creation is true. I mean, God only made two humans, and they had MET God...so....wouldn't they be like, no man, God is the one, I freakin MET him.
True,true. It's kind of like word of mouth. Things get so messed through time and people get things wrong, and people forget! Stupid people! kind of like that one game you play in grade school where someone whispers something into a persons ear and must relay the message and it always gets screwed up. And people just don't have faith that He is the one and true God!


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Old 05-01-2004, 01:40 AM   #16
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Well look at it this way, if the earth was moved a couple degrees toward the sun it would burn up, and in the other direction it would freeze. That seems pretty good to me! plus how evaporation happens, how life is made, how our bodies work without us having comtrol over it, thats some pretty good creating. I mean come on lokk at how light pierces darkness, thats pretty friggin' cool.
Well, we think how light pierces darkness, bodies work without our control, and evaporation works is cool because we don't have power over them. Plus, it seems alot less romantic once you find out how it all works.

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And to the topic at hand, yes God has infinate power. I beleive that God chose to create the earth in 7 days for a reason, for which i'm not sure.(let me do some researching)Plus God could've have made everthing in one day if H wanted to, He just decided not to!
But why did he take a rest on the 7th day, then? He wouldn't need to take a rest on the 7th day because of his powers. Heck, implying that he needs a rest also means he has finite stamina(I'm nitpicking because he has to fill ALOT of standards to be worth of having infinite power).

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True,true. It's kind of like word of mouth. Things get so messed through time and people get things wrong, and people forget! Stupid people! kind of like that one game you play in grade school where someone whispers something into a persons ear and must relay the message and it always gets screwed up. And people just don't have faith that He is the one and true God!
The game's called Telephone, by the way. But you have to understand, it's hard to accept something with faith when it could easily have succumbed to the same syndrome you mentioned. The Catholic church would've, at least once in it's entire exsistance, changed the bible to thier own benefit.



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Old 05-01-2004, 01:49 AM   #17
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The game's called Telephone, by the way. But you have to understand, it's hard to accept something with faith when it could easily have succumbed to the same syndrome you mentioned. The Catholic church would've, at least once in it's entire exsistance, changed the bible to thier own benefit.
No one ever said having faith is easy. It's hard, doubts and fears such as this one can come up and the only answer to it is undying faith in God!
Quote:
But why did he take a rest on the 7th day, then? He wouldn't need to take a rest on the 7th day because of his powers. Heck, implying that he needs a rest also means he has finite stamina(I'm nitpicking because he has to fill ALOT of standards to be worth of having infinite power).
Well at that time God wanted man to reflect that, saturday not sunday as most believe, to be a day of rest, the Sabboth. And in order for man to follow God's comandment God Himself must obey it as well. Does that explain it?


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Old 05-01-2004, 01:54 AM   #18
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No one ever said having faith is easy. It's hard, doubts and fears such as this one can come up and the only answer to it is undying faith in God!
Maybe it's just a difference of mentality, but to have faith in something I need to be sure I have a solid foundation to stand on. Undying faith in my opinion isn't that solid.

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Well at that time God wanted man to reflect that, saturday not sunday as most believe, to be a day of rest, the Sabboth. And in order for man to follow God's comandment God Himself must obey it as well. Does that explain it?
Well, not really. God could just make a double standard. He wouldn't even need infinite power to do it(heck, we've all done it one time or another).



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Old 05-01-2004, 01:59 AM   #19
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Well i'm sorry buddy, i don't have all the answers for ya, but i'm gonna be doing some reading and studying about this and get back to ya.
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Maybe it's just a difference of mentality, but to have faith in something I need to be sure I have a solid foundation to stand on. Undying faith in my opinion isn't that solid
I see where you are coming from, but couldn't you say that all faith comes from a somewhat unsolid foundation. I'm just sayingthis for arguements sake.


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Old 05-01-2004, 02:05 AM   #20
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Well i'm sorry buddy, i don't have all the answers for ya, but i'm gonna be doing some reading and studying about this and get back to ya.
Hey, no problems, infact I'd like to see you trounce over my response. I only come here for extra knowledge; better to learn and be wrong, than to remain ignorant and right..

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I see where you are coming from, but couldn't you say that all faith comes from a somewhat unsolid foundation. I'm just sayingthis for arguements sake.
It's just the degree of faith that seperates our arguments, really.



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Old 05-01-2004, 02:48 AM   #21
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Tyrion, sorry if i came off as a jerk. it wasn't my intention. It's just when i'm really passionate about something i become really defensive. Sorry!


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Old 05-01-2004, 03:31 AM   #22
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
hmmm... theres no proof about the Egyptain stuff
Ha! Not a lot of proof for the christian "stuff" either if you think about ..... only circular proofs.


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Old 05-01-2004, 05:56 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
He does still creat, arent people still being born?
but that is not the way humans were created (err.. not in my opinion.), as far as i know there is not written anything like "and god took a sperm and an egg to form the humans.."


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God is not haphazard; he planned it all with great precision. The more physicists, biologists, and other scientists learn about the universe, the better we can understand how it is uniquely suited for our existence, custom-made with the exact specifications that make human life possible."
i somehow like the idea that we are "adapted" to the "universe" since the universe is much older..

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He is omnipotent. Your not so you dont understand.
i understand a lot. i dont need omnipotence. plus omnipotence does not include omniscience.

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Originally posted by Feanaro
Well look at it this way, if the earth was moved a couple degrees toward the sun it would burn up, and in the other direction it would freeze.
hey, but it didnt. and there are enough reasons why, without including divine spirit, so what? it's "cool" too, that there are things like atoms, electrons and so on. i dont need to watch the earth to see cool things.
also the earth would burn up, mercury doesnt burn up. even the sun is more than just some plain burning thing. the sun is a star. stars are producing "new" elements. they make helium out of hydrogen. without stars we would have a pretty small periodic table. we couldnt even exist.
now tell me, is that pretty much cool or what?

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how life is made, how our bodies work without us having comtrol over it, thats some pretty good creating.
life is made? life is happening. chemical reactions. physical events. that's pretty much it.
and we have pretty much control over our body, or better our brain has, only that "we" dont really take notice of it. it happens subconscious influenced by instincts and such. so from that aspect, our body controls itself. what we do is to say "hey body. take the right arm and grab that chocolate cookie. oh, and dont forget to pickup the glass of milk with the left arm. thanks."
after all it's "just life", and life is just "trying" to spread.


Quote:
I mean come on lokk at how light pierces darkness, thats pretty friggin' cool.
there is no thing like "darkness". there is no thing like "light".
there is space and electromagnetic waves. what you describe is a definition of what we percieve. not more. not less. so why make it a miracle?



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Old 05-01-2004, 05:58 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
After the flood, one of Noah's sons founded Egypt (or his descendents did.) They obviously knew about God. People twist things. You cant assume that just because something comes before something else, thats simular, that, that thing copied it.
They knew about God, yet worshipped an entire Heirarchy of seperate Deities, which God strictly prohibits. I find that interesting, given that the son's of Noah would probably be some thee(not a typo) most God-fearing/worshipping people walking the Sahara.

And people do twist things. Lets just say a humans, in its unceasing hatred for its own species(since we're all more or less self-destructive on the primitve level, which is where all these people were), was writing a book in the Bible. Lets say he had a long-withstanding hatred of some nature polytheist(y'know, a Wiccan) and knew about his religion(the Deity's names and basic human discriptions, as all people who hate someone know nearly everything about that person). How would he get back at this person? Simple, turn a major god of his into the ruler of all that is Evil and Destructive; Lucifer. How would he do this? 'Lucifer starts a war with God, man! And then, God sends him to Hell man! And Lucifer looks like this GOAT-MAN...MAN!!'

Ironicly speaking, the Greek hierarchy had goat-men too,known as Satyrs, and they were turned into Satan...hm...

...nope, can't find anyway of Christianity getting back at the people who enslaved them for centuries
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Old 05-01-2004, 11:05 AM   #25
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hey, but it didnt. and there are enough reasons why, without including divine spirit, so what? it's "cool" too, that there are things like atoms, electrons and so on. i dont need to watch the earth to see cool things.
Well i guess we looka t things differently, is the glass half empty or half full? I look at life as a miracle given to us by God, along with everything else that God created on earth. Such as animals, trees, skies, oceans.


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Old 05-01-2004, 11:31 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kain
How would he do this? 'Lucifer starts a war with God, man! And then, God sends him to Hell man! And Lucifer looks like this GOAT-MAN...MAN!!'

Ironicly speaking, the Greek hierarchy had goat-men too,known as Satyrs, and they were turned into Satan...hm...
Wait..are you saying that Christians coverted goat-men like Satyrs and Lucifer into demons, or that goats are the root of all evil?



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Old 05-01-2004, 03:23 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Feanaro
Well i guess we looka t things differently, is the glass half empty or half full?
the glass is always full, of course. full of atoms of what ever element.
maybe that will result in half the glass' volume filled up with water and the rest is usually filled up with "air".

so is half of the glass full with water? indeed.




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Old 05-01-2004, 03:27 PM   #28
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i'm certain portions of christianity comes from the greeks. the whole belief that there is this world, and then the next world of heaven or hell comes straight out of plato. and yes, i did hear about that egyptian involvement too kain, but i dont' remember too much about it




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Old 05-01-2004, 08:01 PM   #29
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I thought the bible states that God is all-powerful? Which, to me, and many others creates a dilemma...

If God is a loving being, he must presumably wish to rid the world of evil. If he is all-powerful, he must have the ability to rid the world of evil. However, evil - undeniably - exists in the world. Therefore, an all-powerful, loving God either does not exist, or this all-powerful God would have to be evil.

Although, if God's power is finite, then it would explain why he deson't get off his ass and rid the world of evil.

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Old 05-01-2004, 08:08 PM   #30
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Originally posted by The_One
I thought the bible states that God is all-powerful? Which, to me, and many others creates a dilemma...

If God is a loving being, he must presumably wish to rid the world of evil. If he is all-powerful, he must have the ability to rid the world of evil. However, evil - undeniably - exists in the world. Therefore, an all-powerful, loving God either does not exist, or this all-powerful God would have to be evil.

Although, if God's power is finite, then it would explain why he deson't get off his ass and rid the world of evil.

Religion. Pah! More contradictions than sheep in New Zealand

here's the theological answer to that as crafted by st. augustine:

god is all powerful and all knowing.

god created man IN his own image AND likeness.

man had a bout with pride which led to the first sin.

therefore, man created sin by being prideful.


i know it's kinda hard to believe, but it does answer a lot of questions. how can a morally good god allow sin in his creation if he's all powerful? simply put he didn't create it so it's not his creation to control. yes my explanation does bring up even more questions, but in religion, any answer will.




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Old 05-02-2004, 01:54 PM   #31
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*sigh* Here we go again. These threads rarely prove particularily enlightening or constructive, but - for the benefit of the lurkers - here goes:

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Originally posted by Feanaro
Well look at it this way, if the earth was moved a couple degrees toward the sun it would burn up, and in the other direction it would freeze. That seems pretty good to me!
Not really. Given an infinite spacetime continuum you'd expect to find an inhabitable planet somewhere. And given enough time, you'd expect it to become inhabited. It's simply the law of big numbers.

A really good analogy is that of the pool of water on the pavement:

A pool of water lies on the pavement of 42nd Street, NY. It realises that it fits perfectly into the hollow it lies in, and concludes that the hollow was, of course, created so that it could occupy it.

The stupidity of the water's conclusion is obvious to the human mind, because we as humans know that the water pooled there because of the hollow, not the other way around. Similarily, the argument that the universe is so finely attuned to life that it must have been created is a fallacity, simply because the obvious conclusion is that life arose because the universe works in a way that makes it possible, not the other way around.

The point would have been a lot better, had the universe been supremely hostile towards life. Then it would have been impressive that life could flourish. Now it is simply the trivial conclusion when you evaluate the equation of the universe to its ultimate, logical conclusion: Life is possible, therefore life will exist.

Quote:
the only answer to it is undying faith in God!
A claim that, when taken to its logical conclusion can result only in mindless obedience of totalitarian taskmasters. Welcome to Oceania... And remember: Big Brother is watching!

[disclaimer] I'm not saying that you - or anyone else - are mindless automatons. I was simply taking your statement to its logical conclusion in order to clarify why blind faith (and faith is, by way of definition, always blind) is a bad idea.[/disclaimer]

Quote:
Tyrion, sorry if i came off as a jerk. it wasn't my intention. It's just when i'm really passionate about something i become really defensive. Sorry!
Oh, you're not being a jerk. Mebbe a little short on education, but definitely not a jerk. If you want to see jerk, you should check out some of your fellow believers in the Swamp (none named, none forgotten, and no implication of causation between jerkyness and belief intended (although it is my experience that there is a certain correlation)).

Quote:
'Lucifer starts a war with God, man
From what I remember from Religion class, Lucifer doesn't start any war. It merely questions Jahve's (ab)use of its arbitrary power... For some reason, Jahve decides to use said arbitrary power to swat Lucifer out of the skies.

Quote:
Well i guess we looka t things differently, is the glass half empty or half full? I look at life as a miracle given to us by God, along with everything else that God created on earth. Such as animals, trees, skies, oceans.
I sometimes wonder how it would feel to see the world that way... Overlaid with pink perhaps? j/k

Seriously, though, I simply cannot make a mental picture of what it would be like. And that fact troubles both my curiosity and my sense of self preservation.

Quote:
If God is a loving being, he must presumably wish to rid the world of evil. If he is all-powerful, he must have the ability to rid the world of evil. However, evil - undeniably - exists in the world. Therefore, an all-powerful, loving God either does not exist, or this all-powerful God would have to be evil.
Evil, however, is by neccesity a relative and subjective term. That follows from the existence of free will. So, even an all-powerful deity would be unable to rid the world of evil (without ridding it of humanity as well), because what one persons views as evil may be viewed by another person at another time and place as good.* By way of example, Christianity preaches that freedom of thought is evil, whereas most civilized societies base their entire ideology around it. Curiously, though, the two (Christianity and Civilisation) continue to exist in some semblance of peace and coexistence.

* Which, of course, results in another paradox...


Last edited by ShadowTemplar; 05-02-2004 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 05-02-2004, 10:22 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Ha! Not a lot of proof for the christian "stuff" either if you think about ..... only circular proofs.

Lol, I was going to say that in the other thread... "theres no proof" but anyways...

Let me do some looking around the good old internet (of course, just because you find it on the internet, doesnt mean its true....)

BTW, ..... where did any of you get that Satan looked like a goat-man?

Quote:

here's the theological answer to that as crafted by st. augustine:

god is all powerful and all knowing.

god created man IN his own image AND likeness.

man had a bout with pride which led to the first sin.

therefore, man created sin by being prideful.

Sounds good


Quote:
If God is a loving being, he must presumably wish to rid the world of evil. If he is all-powerful, he must have the ability to rid the world of evil. However, evil - undeniably - exists in the world. Therefore, an all-powerful, loving God either does not exist, or this all-powerful God would have to be evil.
Umm.. no.. is that tree evil? Or are you just talking about beings that can reason? God is perfect. He is omnipotent. He is God.

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I think people don't understand that you can both be a good christian and wondering how this and that came into the Bible.
They seem to obey to anything blindly without asking questions whatsoever.
So.. what is a good Christian? How can a good Christian doubt his religion?
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Old 05-02-2004, 11:15 PM   #33
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(And mennonite, most of your posts seem to be so vague and indefinite, I'd like to hear your honest opinion..)
So, you really want to hear my opinion? Well, I haven't decided yet... I still have more facts to sift through. It's hard to decide when it comes to religion... like I said, I still have more facts to sift through.

Let me start off saying... I don't really care if God had infinite powers or not. He is God, and that's that. If I believe in Him, then it does not matter, whether he is or not, though I may choose to believe he is. I believe that He is in fact omnipotent... but choosing whether I believe in Him or not is still a decision I haven't made yet.

Also, if you choose to believe in something... why, you should believe in it anyway... because it's what's worth believing in the first place. This may be blind, but it doesn't matter does it? If you have something, someone to believe in, you will always feel good, and have something/someone to turn to in times of pain, suffering, and trouble. Or at least that's me.

Secondly... I'm not sure humans even have to understand God's decisions, will, etc. We carry out what we were meant to do. If God wanted to create the world in 6 days, then so be it. Accept things the way they are. Hindsight is 20/20. Yet, if God has infinite powers indeed, then why did He take 6 days to do it? Is there a hidden meaning for humans to interpret from it? Was He doing that on purpose, spending each day, crafting man, animal, etc. each day, individually? Or, since He was in fact making humans as an image of Himself, wouldn't that take forever... if He is perfect, omnipotent, -niscient, etc.? I have yet to discover. Was there some divine purpose? I have no clue. Tell me. I'm confused.

And if God had infinite powers, why would He create humans? Was He bored? Was He wanting to create an image of himself only? Like lukeskywalker1 said? So, after creating humans... humans turned out to be less than perfect. If He had infinite powers, couldn't he just "zap" the sinful humans away, and make another, perfect batch of humans? No... if He knows all, is omniscient.. then he knows that you stole that candy bar from the vending machine. So, in exposing humans to the sin that we've already previously encountered... is the reason so that we will learn? Learn from our mistakes? Is He tired of watching our mere, everyday boring lives, tired of correcting it Himself... so we have to adapt to it? Are we His experiment? If He is powerful, then why does He waste his time with humans such as us?

Is there such thing as pure religion? From this I mean... if there is religion... then science, biological science that is, wouldn't exist would it? My friends say that adaptation, evolution and the lot of those theories are false, simply because God did everything. So, does religion disprove science itself? I don't believe so. Science and religion can co-exist, with minor formalities. You cannot say one is wrong just because the other says.

On a side note- I hope everyone who is not religious, take the role of an atheist that does not support religion; not an atheist who expresses hatred, disgust, or is anti-religious. Just because you don't believe in something/someone, doesn't mean you automatically go against it.

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So.. what is a good Christian? How can a good Christian doubt his religion?
A good Christian can't doubt his/her own religion, IMHO.

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he cannot control time.
What if He can, but doesn't want to? I said above something about why He created humans, and if He is experimenting with us. Read it.

And yes, if after reading my post... you noticed that I brought up a lot of questions... you're not the only one.

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Old 05-03-2004, 12:14 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by MennoniteHobbit
A good Christian can't doubt his/her own religion, IMHO.
This, to me, is foolishness. We must be allowed to have doubts in everything, or we will never grow as human beings, or as a species. If people had never had their doubts about science we'd believe the world is flat, and we wouldn't have these fancy computers with this dang fangled internet.

doubt is necessary for growth.



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Old 05-03-2004, 06:42 AM   #35
Ray Jones
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doubt is the beginning of wisdom.


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Old 05-03-2004, 11:27 AM   #36
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Doubt, to lean towards learning more about your own religion is good. But, doubting your own religion to the point of not believing in it anymore.

Doubt is a good thing, but there's always an exception. As long as you still believe in your own religion, and doubt it only to learn more about it, and why, then that is a good thing.

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Old 05-03-2004, 03:36 PM   #37
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Quote:
Doubt is a good thing, but there's always an exception. As long as you still believe in your own religion, and doubt it only to learn more about it, and why, then that is a good thing.
but it makes no sense to doubt things you dont want to give up believing in. if one thing can be "in doubt" then everything else must be doubtable too. also doubt leads to knowledge, not to belief.


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Old 05-04-2004, 08:54 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by MennoniteHobbit
Doubt is a good thing, but there's always an exception. As long as you still believe in your own religion, and doubt it only to learn more about it, and why, then that is a good thing.
But if it cannot stand up to scrutiny, then there can be no point in adhering to it, can there?

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Old 05-04-2004, 04:57 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by MennoniteHobbit
Doubt, to lean towards learning more about your own religion is good. But, doubting your own religion to the point of not believing in it anymore.

Doubt is a good thing, but there's always an exception. As long as you still believe in your own religion, and doubt it only to learn more about it, and why, then that is a good thing.
What's the point of doubting if you mind is already made up to belive it? How can you have truely doubted it?

If god is so loving, Why would we go to hell just for not worshipping him? what about Jews? they worship god, but don't believe christ was the son of god, why should they suffer a fate of hell? After all, isn't the point of worshipping god to wel... worship him? Besides if jesus died for everyones sins, why should it matter if you believe in him or not? or that you have to "accept him into your heart" in order to be saved from hell?
I thought he died for everyones sins, doesn't that include the "sin" of those not being a follower of christ?
If I sacrificed myself to give everyone a clean slate, I'd make sure it meant, everyone, not just my followers and believers. But everyone, even if they denied my existence, position as the son of god. Because if I was truely a loving god/son of god, It'd be in my will to protect all that I(or my father) created.

also, I'd consider it more of a miracle if god came down in physical form, and stopped each rapist. Instead of these other "miracles" you hear about.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
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Old 05-04-2004, 05:57 PM   #40
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or, to put it on the edge, i could be a "sinner" (the whole program, y'know) all my life, and when it's coming to an end i can "find my way to god" and will be "saved" because "all my sins will be forgotten". isnt that unfair against the "always doing good guys" who only dont believe, but will be send to hell, because they never will find a "way to god"?


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