Trying Not to be Discouraged...

[mergatroid]

Yeah, mapping sure puts archetecture in a new perspective. It gets scarry sometimes when I wonder how I would have made something infront of me in radient. I dread to see the day when I start to see how many portals a real room would generate.

[lauser]

Originally posted by zag
well im pretty bad at level design myself (check out a few inches south of here )
its not the doing stuff i have a problem with its just the level design that i suck at with is kinfa hard to remedy
i remember once when i was knee deep in radient one time i was in mcdonalds and i was looking at these neon sign and though "thats a pretty complex curve with a glow shader" and then the floor "its shiny but not realy reflective shiny" and at the chairs and tables and stuff and i didnt even realise i was doing it

I have to admit Zag...I have found myself in the same boat many times. But for me it has been tree models and skies. Yesterday it was..... "Wow, look at those storm clouds and how the light beams from the sun after a good shower cast cool shadows on the hills."
How do I design maps? What is it that I take into consideration?
Most of the time I start off with the simple part and build from there. I have an idea of an area. I build a small skybox and start with a large room or maybe terrain. I will say this...when I build rooms I never make them cubed. I used to do that but I find that terribly boring. So I slope the walls inward. I may even cut the room in half and slope the TOP walls inward and the bottom walls inward. Now I have a diamond shaped hallway or room. Like a polyhedron, except it's hollow.
I should actually do a tutorial for detailed objects and rooms and post it somewhere. Stay tuned.

[Codja X]

Well Mr. Vogel, I hope that's enough encouragment

[{NJO}*Dark]

i know how you feel. i was randomly looking out of a window one day, and thinking to my self, that would be such a cool sky to have, but then i remember i had a map to make...

[Codja X]

Making maps does make you appreciate the landscape, lighting and architecture in the world.

I can now normalise the colour of a summer sunset at 20:00 to within 3 decimal places (0.952 0.705 0.253)

[Jedi_Vogel]

Originally posted by Codja X
Well Mr. Vogel, I hope that's enough encouragment

Will keep me busy for many months to come methinks
Guess it's not so bad working on perfecting a platform-with-piston for an hour, or several weeks on one room, I will release a map and I will get better.

As they say... practice makes perfect

[Codja X]

Also, if you want a more "Star Warsy" map then try:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/

This is the site for the Star Wars technical commentries and will give you everything, from the power of a turbo laser to the amount of Storm Troopers stationed aboard a Star Destroyer. Not that much in the way of helping you map, but it does inspire some inspiration for creating single player adventures.

Have a read through - you'll find it interesting...

[Jedi_Vogel]

Thanks

[Codja X]

Will keep me busy for many months to come methinks

Right, no more encouragment until I see some screenshots!

Get 'em up here son. You've been teasing and tantalising us for a while now and I can't take it anymore.

I'm not expecting a work on par with Michaelangelo, Da Vinci or Mslaf, but I reckon you could surprise a lot of people.

Also, if you post some screenies, you'll be guaranteed a shed load of responses like "you can do this", "that'd look cool", "why don't you have a go at that" etc. You'll get enough ideas to make your map shine.

Don't worry about getting bashed about it - I personally don't post a comment about someone's map unless it's positive and so do most of the people here - the noobs'll go "wow, how'd ya do that" and the veteran's will go "that's good - try this to make it better".

I bet you're better than me already anyway...

[Jedi_Vogel]

I bet you're better than me already anyway...

pah-ha, pah-ha



pah-ha!

*snicker*

Um, yeah, right

Give me a bit more time and I'll post some screenies of the rooms I think are worthy of being torn apart I mean...er...criticized constructively

[Jedi_Vogel]

I just found some encouragement

http://www.map-review.com/index.php?...id=217&game=JA

every mapper should check this out...and I mean every mapper

My map's better than this at 20% done and I'm not kidding

[lassev]

Yeah, well, at least it underlines the importance of getting rid of obvious erros, having your map beta tested and evaluated for artistic impressions (especially if a young mapper hasn't yet developed such a good sense of artistic vision himself).

It's all too easy to laugh at the shortcomings of other people's products. Instead you should note his mistakes and make sure you will never repeat them.

Sometimes the sentence "don't publish your first map" might be a good advice. Sometimes not. Colosseum was Clu's first map, and no doubt one of the most remarkable custom products ever for JO.

[Jedi_Vogel]

Absolutely, I agree Believe me, I made a note of the criticisms made so that I don't repeat them *nods*

I'm being as sensible as I can about this now, just plugging away when I can. And will got the proper routes before even thinking about releasing it.



and I want to thank everyone on this forum who's helping on the way with my questions and are pointing me to resources I hadn't found. When this map's done, it'll be a major thanks to everyone here, cos I couldn't have come this far on my own

[{NJO}*Dark]

lol, that is, well... funny.
I made a corridor and a small room and it would get a highter score than that (they never say the maps have to be big )

[shukrallah]

Youll do fine Just ignore everyone who says bad stuff and doesnt give a reason why its bad. You the "that sucks" comment.

But in KOTOR Mr. Jays case I think he applied to RAVEN, which you could do also.

KOTORMJAY applied to Raven? With that piece of crap flight school in his portfolio?

HIRE HIM! Hes like.. the 1337 mapper.. he can add ships.. and stuff.. and make them respawn on big octogons. He knows how to light up a whole map too Excellant taste in custom music. I like jamming to that.. song while flying my xwing around

J/K I strongly dislike that map :-/

Heh, strangly enough, last night I was just browsing through map review, and re-read the review of KOTOR flight school. Its funny how a guy can throw a rancor and a few ships and taun tauns in a map and everyone will go crazy over it (im speaking in general, not just kotor flight school) Doesnt matter if it has boxy rooms and no lighting.... or a lake in the desert

[Codja X]

Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel
I just found some encouragement

http://www.map-review.com/index.php?...id=217&game=JA

every mapper should check this out...and I mean every mapper

My map's better than this at 20% done and I'm not kidding

Remember - use constructive criticism! At least he knows how to load radiant - it's a start. Now he needs to learn how to use it

[Jedi_Vogel]

*chuckles*

The Reviewer gave constructive criticism, with a little humour

Now I have just re-read this thread and have a few Google searches to do...

[{NJO}*Dark]

This is a very valuable thread for any mapper, should be stuck. I found out that after reading this thread the level of my maps increased a whole load. They now look vaguely good. The map i was making i had to scrap because it became crap with the new skill i got. Arr well, always another map to make, and hopefully better than the last.

[lassev]

Originally posted by {NJO}*Dark
This is a very valuable thread for any mapper, should be stuck.

You must be joking...

[Codja X]

Originally posted by lassev
You must be joking...

This is more a thread for generating ideas and motivation for mappers who are fairly new to this game, rather than a technical tutorial.

I like to think of this forum as more than just a painfully hard to use FAQ - it is a place where the more experienced can offer support and advice to people starting out - be it a technical problem, an inspiration problem or in Jedi Vogel's case, an encouragment problem.

True, I don't think this thread should be sticky, but it would be nice to have a tips, tricks and thoughts thread where people can post little things they've learnt, where they get ideas from etc...

My 1st tip for creating a map is: RESEARCH. If you're making a military base, lookup "military bases", if you want to improve or stylise your architecture, look up "architecture".

That sort of thing...

[shukrallah]

Yeah, a tips and tricks thread would be nice. We need a moderator to check this place out once in a while and sticky important things, like that MD3 list. Maybe we should find the most important threads and ask a mod to sticky them?

[lauser]

Stickies are fairly important as the search function doesn't always work. I find GOOGLE works much better at finding things on this forum than the forums own search function...LOL

As far as this thread goes I think it should stay the way it is. If we keep generating ideas and feedback in here it will eventually get a 5 star rating anyhow.

[Jedi_Vogel]

Yes, Vogel had a few encouragement problems, but all's good, I am back to progressing and I may even post a couple of screenies of the rooms I've done the most work on...soon

[Codja X]

What sort of map are you making? Is it a MP or SP? What setting are you using: imperial, city, hoth, ruins, wilderness?

If you're going to tease us, then at least give us some form of idea of what it could look like to tide us over

[Jedi_Vogel]

It's an MP map (I have an SP Idea, but need to buy graph paper first lol) and it's set on Yavin IV, but is not a temple

And it's not SW Canon-compatible either, but never mind

Short Description: 5 years before the Battle of Yavin, a fort was erected. The Complex provided a perfect setting for Rebel officials and Jedi to meet together to discuss tactics and share ideas. As a joint Rebel/Jedi Project, training rooms were incorporated into the design. As a goodwill gesture, a meditation room was also provided to which both Jedi and Rebel solider could retire to refind some lost peace.

The Fort was built mostly from local materials, but more elegant rocks were imported from elsewhere by capital ships. It took the best part of a year to build.

The Fort is a two storey structure with a tower either side, used for keeping watch. It is designed with ultimate freedom of movement throughout the building, with no one way to get anywhere. Except the meditation room, which should not have people flowing through it.

I have missed out some stuff that I am planning to do, but as I've only been working on the map for 2 months, there is a heck of a lot of work to be done

[Codja X]

If you're doing a fort on Yavin I would strongly suggest you check this out:

http://images.google.com/images?q=ma...=Google+Search

and

http://images.google.com/images?svnu...off&q=ziggurat

(see my earlier tip!)

[Jedi_Vogel]

Thanks, I had searched for Inca and Aztec Temples, but I hadn't heard of Mayan so I'll grab some more images.

I'm finding it hard translating images into structure lol, but I'm working on the inside first, so I should be ok

[Codja X]

I just use pictures like that for insipiration - to pick up design tips and the general theme of the map.

With Mayan architecture, it's generally all steps, terraces and 45 degree angles. No need for bothersome patches! No need for direct translation - in your case, you're building a fort that the rebels have constructed, so it wouldn't have to be like the Massassi temples, but I would assume that they would be sympathetic to the surrounding enviroment. Just add little bits here and there to tell players that they are on Yavin and not just in rebel base X.

Also, if you can find some close ups of the wall engravings, you can fiddle with them in Photoshop (or your preferred texture editor) and import them into radiant - give your map a bit of Mayan (Yavin) flava!

[Jedi_Vogel]

Oh don't worry, it's got architecture, not all exclusively Yavin (as it's a big joint project), but it's not just a random Rebel base neither

And the 45 degree angles are proving fun for texturing, but I'm getting there. Which reminds me...I need to knock down a couple of walls and rebuild them... shame I'm at work *makes mental note to remember for later*

[Codja X]

That is the big problem - if I had radiant in work i'd be the best mapper in the universe. But I haven't. So i'm not.

I get all these cool ideas, but by the time I get home, i'm so knackered the last thing I can be bothered to do is to align textures to within a pixel on the detailing i've created.

I'm pretty sure the best way to learn to map quickly is to have a fast internet connection in the house, so you can test things as soon as you read about them.

I'll wait to get broadband where I live before even attempting Terrain, alphamodding etc.

Tip 2: Bored of flat looking walls and ceiling? Why not try modelling some of the detail in textures on them with detail brushes? It really does make a difference to the "being there" aspect of the game....

[{NJO}*Dark]

Several things...
I just use Fit on the texturing and then change what i need to, it works quite well, but sometimes stuffs up.
Your tip 2 works well if you already have detailed textures, but i prefer to choose plain(er) textures and then add stuf. Eg, an imperial underground base on the engeneering level, now would they have pipes or electric cables? Both! and some wall and sceeling lights, and finally some support colums, great, that will do this section of the map, now what would they have on a corridor that vader could have walked down... It works quite well.
Another thing i have a problem with is fitting rooms and things into a bigger building, either there is not enough room, or too much. From the inside you think, this is too small, must make it bigger, and on the outside you think, this is too big, must make it smaller. And in reality they are rigth next to each other.

[{NJO}*Dark]

Forgot to add a before and after of reading this topic. Before:
[IMG]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwBUA7oYR!ysFjQUo7b*KlT*NDNpPboZyw6nsQtV7XZhrW3t! c5baeNWyeZJXCR7SFtqtEbpTanglCscmTdOkD49nkTmFBhD3oV Y7hPWyAi3C8I1xcCA6g/shot0285.jpg?dc=4675478657198828587[/IMG]
After:
[IMG]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwD9ArcYduusFjQUo7b*KhTbrfIPvj!29uIKU4KmN*vBEVIzZ NeAAByabkwDtXvsD2RBjxSa2ZOkma4R71k6blpS29jDtdTdWtb wk4uc!W5SdnA1wZXnsQ/shot0291.jpg?dc=4675478657203802796[/IMG]
Quite an improvement i would say. Lol, i now put in so much detail i used 660+ brushes in 2 rooms and a corridor

[Codja X]

Just remember to caulk and make them detail brushes or your compile times will go through the roof.

[{NJO}*Dark]

already have