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View Poll Results: Do you think it would be cool to have playable Jedi?
YES ! I want to be a Jedi wah wah wah 40 28.78%
NO ! This game is for the grunts only 79 56.83%
I really don't care 20 14.39%
Voters: 139. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: 'Playable Jedi' Debate (merged, no flaming)
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Old 10-08-2004, 03:46 PM   #1
Darimus
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Why's Everyone Against Jedi?

I read everyone's ideas on how jedi are so terrible, etc, etc, and that it would be impossible to balance... but in a matter of seconds, I came up with a good idea.

1 Player is a Jedi, and the teams are either FFA or like everyone vs the jedi, most likely the latter. The player who kills the jedi (and the jedi won't be invulernable), would become him. This way there would only be 1 Jedi during the game, and it would be like a hunt of the jedi.

If you are going to repeat the same opinions on Jedi lots of you have already done... then don't do it here
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Old 10-08-2004, 03:52 PM   #2
TK-8252
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Already done in the game Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast. I suggest you go play that.
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Old 10-08-2004, 03:54 PM   #3
Darimus
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I never played it, however, I assume you're saying that it's not very good?
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Old 10-08-2004, 03:58 PM   #4
TK-8252
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It's a good game if you want to be a Jedi, unlike Battlefront.
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Old 10-08-2004, 04:09 PM   #5
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cuZ bots in Battlefront suck

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Old 10-08-2004, 04:12 PM   #6
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If there were mod tools, a sufficiently talented person could make a good jedi system... and they wouldn't need a huge team in my opinion either... theres already a few jedi models in the game (obviously) and the heros can be used as a basis for how it will work besides their invulernability.

And as I can see, "TK-8252", you're a stubborn person and won't ever change your opinion... so refrain to replying to this unless you have something intelligent to say that doesn't represent the fact that you're just trying to stand up for the fact that you don't want jedis.


=-(edit)-=

what do bots have to do with this at all? O_o
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Old 10-08-2004, 04:16 PM   #7
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This is strictly a game giving you a perspective from the soldier's point of view.
If you want Jedis along with guns and stuff, Either go buy Jedi Knight II (it's bout 20 or so dollars now) or Jedi Academy (likewise).
If you want further info on those games...google it.
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Old 10-08-2004, 04:24 PM   #8
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Heh... If it's easily unbalanced, you say how it's unbalanced, yet when it's perfectly balanced and could be fun, you do the fail-safe of recommending a different game.

You probably never noticed that
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Old 10-08-2004, 04:33 PM   #9
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This is basically the first game there is that lets you fight as a grunt in Star Wars and not a jedi. And agreed with TK play Outcast for that mode you suggested.


Sig encountering technical difficulties...
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Old 10-08-2004, 04:33 PM   #10
TK-8252
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darimus
And as I can see, "TK-8252", you're a stubborn person and won't ever change your opinion...
Why should I? Jedi in Battlefront is one of the suckiest ideas - as we've seen from recent threads.

Quote:
Originally posted by Darimus
so refrain to replying to this unless you have something intelligent to say that doesn't represent the fact that you're just trying to stand up for the fact that you don't want jedis.
Hmm... you don't have the authority to tell me to do this. And everything I have said is intelligent... the only unintelligent posting here is posts saying to have playable Jedi.

Yet another thread of a Jedi fanboy complaining about the lack of Jedi. This has been done to death. Give it up!
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Old 10-08-2004, 04:43 PM   #11
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yeah , give me a break
its so good theres no jedi
they r more anoying then flies

so when u want a jedi get "Jedi Outcast"or "Jedi Academy"
leave this game for the gunners

thx
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Old 10-08-2004, 04:46 PM   #12
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Heh I was getting a bit bored with the gameplay... only thing still fun is using the jetpack, and playing with the CIS.

I usually do pretty good on whatever server, unless theres like 50 people, so "leave this game for the gunners" doesn't really do much there.

And if you read what I said, there would still be gunners, which you probably just skimmed thru
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Old 10-08-2004, 04:53 PM   #13
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Jedi can be balanced, look at Jedi Academy Siege mode.

Granted, I can understand their not wanting to code in controllable Jedi. That's a lot of extra work... Force Power System, Acrobatics, Saber physics, etc.

As is, they are just bots with no-range insta-kill weapons that are indestructable except from kill-pits and being run over and the added ability to block/push back projectiles that hit them directly.

It's much easier to add guns to a Jedi game, than it is to add Jedi to a guns game.


The JK series does a great job of blending the "guns" with sabers & force both online and off, so yes, I highly recommend them.

If mod making is ever allowed and figured out for this game, making a simple "Jedi Class" (with limits on who many and how often they could be used per team) wouldn't seem to be that hard, but making it on the level of the JK games? Heh, it'd be like writing a whole new game. Good luck!


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Old 10-08-2004, 05:11 PM   #14
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o_O that kinda shocked me for a sec there, an intelligent post...

but anyways, I don't think i'd mind something with just a lightsabre, and a bit faster speed/jumping (acrobatics), and a way to deflect shots... I wouldn't need force powers (But they would be a nice touch)

And like I just stated, I wouldn't expect too much other then just the functionality...
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Old 10-08-2004, 05:22 PM   #15
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For the billionth person to say "Why no Jedi?," this game is a gunner's title. Go play the JK series (great games) if you want a mix of guns and sabers.


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Hopin' LEC is going to get on track and bring us a decent JK for the JKers of 1997.
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Old 10-08-2004, 05:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Jedi can be balanced, look at Jedi Academy Siege mode.
Sorry, but Jedi Academy Siege is horribly unbalanced. Especially the Jedi, who just reflect/push everything, and then charge with their lightsaber or throw-spam. Even MovieBattles II Jedi are unbalanced, and when everyone picks the Jedi class and I ask why 3/4 of the server is Jedi, they say "because Jedi are overpowered."
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Old 10-08-2004, 06:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK-8252
Sorry, but Jedi Academy Siege is horribly unbalanced. Especially the Jedi, who just reflect/push everything, and then charge with their lightsaber or throw-spam. Even MovieBattles II Jedi are unbalanced, and when everyone picks the Jedi class and I ask why 3/4 of the server is Jedi, they say "because Jedi are overpowered."
I strongly disagree that the Jedi in Siege are unbalanced, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion, so I'll agree to disagree. If you want to argue that, head on over to the JA forums, though it's been beaten to death already I think.


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Old 10-08-2004, 07:47 PM   #18
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How many times are there going to be topics created on the "Why can't there be Jedi in SWBF" thing??? We have seen this a million times already.

Every single topic starts off the same damn way with "Whats wrong with having Jedi in the game? I think it would be cool if there were and this is how it could be done blah, blah, blah", only to have an overwhelming response by the vast majority of people shooting it down, telling the original person who created said topic, that this game is for the grunts and ground pounders of the Star wars universe and not Jedi, and if you want to be a Jedi to go play Jedi Academy or Jedi outcast, blah, blah, bla!

Well this post is yet another one...IF YOU WANT TO BE A JEDI GO PLAY JEDI ACADEMY OR JEDI OUTCAST! Both of these games mentioned are incredibly fun and have a very active online community (I myself was very active in JA and JO and belonged to clans in both)

Here's a suggestion, as a goof in the future instead of creating yet another topic asking "Why can't Jedi to be included in SW:BF"...DON'T!!!! Instead why not just reply to the 200 already existing threads asking "Why can't Jedi be included in SW:BF"? I know it's crazy and revolutionary to simply reply to an existing topic. But try it out. It might just work and it is a hell of a lot easier!

Oh and one last thing. Regarding telling "TK-8252" (and I quote) "refrain to replying to this unless you have something intelligent to say that doesn't represent the fact that you're just trying to stand up for the fact that you don't want jedis." Wow, that is just plain out B.S.!!! You can not dictate what he or we can or cannot say. You can't command the people who disagree with you to not reply! If you had this power (and you don't) this topic would be very quiet and would be on the bottom of the topic list by now. Because once again the vast majority of people have stated that we don't want Jedi in this game. We have before and we will continue to do so to all future threads asking the same thing again!

So count me in as yet another person who has ignored your "command" to not respond because "I am repeating the same opinions on Jedi that lots of us have already done!" I guess your dictatorial power doesnt reach into my jurisdiction! Go figure
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Old 10-08-2004, 08:12 PM   #19
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lol, you stole that idea from The Specialists. (half life mod)

But in the specialists, it is everyone vs the one and the person who kills the one becomes him.


VIVA LA REVIEW!!
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Old 10-08-2004, 11:18 PM   #20
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Now play Jedi Academy Movie Battles II.
If you are a gunner, then I wanna bet you hate the jedis 2


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Old 10-09-2004, 06:39 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darimus
Heh I was getting a bit bored with the gameplay... only thing still fun is using the jetpack, and playing with the CIS.
I'm sorry I'm not board with the game I'm perfectly happy with it. (some things could be better) If I want to play a Jedi or Battlefront with Jedi I play JKA Siege. It is basically the same.

Quote:
Originally posted by Darimus
I usually do pretty good on whatever server, unless theres like 50 people, so "leave this game for the gunners" doesn't really do much there.
It does more then enough for me. JK games have groups of mostly Saber users that hate people who are better with guns then they are with their glow sticks. Most JK servers are Saber only. So I think the majority of people who liked to use guns have flocked to this game. We like Star Wars, guns, and this is just what we want. We don't need no Hokey religions or ancient weapons. We just want a good blaster by our side. Thanks.......

Quote:
Originally posted by Darimus
And if you read what I said, there would still be gunners, which you probably just skimmed thru
And if you read what the majority of people responding to your post are saying. There are perfectly good games already that do a very good job with simulating Jedi and still have guns. In JKA there is a siege map with no guns and all Jedi and 2 mix maps with 1 Jedi class per team.

The problem here is most of us are already well played in Jedi Knight games. We have been their and done that. As for you, you just seem to be popping on seen and wondering why nobody wants to play a Jedi in this game.

It's just been "done to death" and most of us are tired of it, and associate Jedi with crybaby players that cry lamer every time you kick there ars in a game with a gun. In JK you need to know how to use both well or your just going to get your butt beat and then some people want to pretend to be Jedi Masters. Everyone knows you are not suppose to be able to kill a Jedi Master with a Rocket launcher. lol

There is also "Republic Commando" coming out and guess what you don't play a Jedi in that either.


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Old 10-09-2004, 09:34 AM   #22
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Ok look, if one of you fanboys wants to put a team together to make a 'jedi mod' to this game, go right ahead. Don't expect the entire community to embrace it with open arms. If you REALLY feel the need to put jedi in this game - then go to town on it when the mod tools come out.

Jedi were not included in this game because it's already been done numerous times and has been done rather well. It's my opinion that jedi don't really have a place in this game - I think even the NPC jedi that are in some game modes and servers wreck the flow of the game. Many people are here playing this game because it's something different from the SW franchise that isn't jedi-centric.

So back to my initial point, if you can't live without jedi in this game, then do it yourself, and please, do it quick, so that y'all can have your jedi orgy and leave the rest of us in peace.



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Old 10-09-2004, 11:44 AM   #23
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The fact is that the Jedi in SWBF are absolutely pathetic (and appear to be bugged and unfinished, since they don't behave at all as they were described as in the previews).

To make them usable in this game would require an awful lot of work on the part of the developers, since they obviously never planned to make them usable at the start and they barely had enough time to release a playable game, much less one with such an advanced feature.

There is nothing wrong with having playable Jedi in this game, I just don't think it's going to happen due to the amount of work required for a feature that wouldn't be used very much.

For once the "well if you want to do ____ go play ____" isn't so fallacious in this case, so take their advice. ; )

If Mod making were allowed and possible, there would be nothing stopping people from creating Jedi mods, and that would be fine. But since that isn't yet possible, we could ask Pandemic to do it in an expansion or something.

Having a bunch of Jedi classes (like Siege Korriban in JA) wouldn't be bad, and they could be balanced with the others. But again, it's so much more work that it would make more sense for an expansion or sequel, not something to just toss into the next patch. They've got enough problems to fix as it is, they just probably won't have time.

Unfortunately some people have (from certain trends they followed) the impression that "Jedi" in a game have to be there for one thing, and one thing only, saber dueling and/or role playing. Since this game is about armies fighting each other, such a type of gameplay would be completely out of place. As is, there is only one "game mode" for BF, and that's UT style Domination with a couple things thrown in like reinforcements (team "lives") and a destroyable headquarters object that may or may not help you and takes forever to take down. There's no deathmatch, no CTF, etc.

Jedi can be used in a game, they just may not conform to some people's preconcieved notions of what Jedi "ought to be." As of now they don't add a whole lot to the game, but if they were patched they could be better. But playing as them is another matter entirely. If it were done right it could be fun, I just don't see it happening.


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Old 10-09-2004, 11:54 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Schetter
Ok look, if one of you fanboys wants to put a team together to make a 'jedi mod' to this game, go right ahead. Don't expect the entire community to embrace it with open arms. If you REALLY feel the need to put jedi in this game - then go to town on it when the mod tools come out.

Jedi were not included in this game because it's already been done numerous times and has been done rather well. It's my opinion that jedi don't really have a place in this game - I think even the NPC jedi that are in some game modes and servers wreck the flow of the game. Many people are here playing this game because it's something different from the SW franchise that isn't jedi-centric.

So back to my initial point, if you can't live without jedi in this game, then do it yourself, and please, do it quick, so that y'all can have your jedi orgy and leave the rest of us in peace.
That's the thing. If there were tools and editing was allowed, this would be a moot point.

Personally I don't think the Jedi add or subtract anything because they are so worthless. I have yet to play a battle where the Jedi were any kind of deciding factor. Sure they kill a lot, but only against those who try to fight them on foot (ie: bots). They're pathetically easy to kill if you have the right vehicle, and they're pathetically easy to avoid.

I don't think people are playing this game to get away from Jedi. Rather they are playing this game because it is completely different than any Star Wars game released thus far... a "war strategy" FPS, like BF1942.

It's not as deep or polished a FPS as say Jedi Academy or Jedi Outcast, and it's not as polished a strategy game as say Galactic Battlegrounds, it combines elements of both into its own game.

I just don't buy the idea that Jedi are antithetical to having a fun Star Wars multiplayer game. One of the main reasons people object to Jedi is their idea of what constitutes "canon." Ie: it's the same argument people make when they see Dark Troopers on Hoth or anything they didn't see in the movies. But even so, Jedi did fight in the Clone Wars, and never restricted themselves just to dueling other Jedi in honorable combat, so in story terms they have no ground to stand on. In game terms its just a question of balance. But its far easier to make them AI only than to make them usable for players.

I'd love to be able to play as Gungans and Ewoks too, but that's a pipe dream unless mod tools are released and sanctioned.


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Old 10-09-2004, 12:21 PM   #25
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I don't want to unload my whole clip on a Jedi just to have my shots reflected back at me by some fanboy who must wave a glowstick.

One major reason I got this game is so Star Wars gunners can have gun fights without being interrupted by Jedi - forcing you to retreat, wasting your ammo to be reflected right back at you, Force pushed down and rendered helpless, etc.

"Jedi could be balanced." Well, maybe, but I don't think so. Example of modded Jedi: MovieBattles II. Horrible overpowered Jedi. 3/4 of the players on MBII servers choose the Jedi class simply because they can't stand a chance as a gunner against a Jedi. Completely ruins the battle for everyone, and not to mention isn't canon. This could happen to SWBF too.

Quote:
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I'd love to be able to play as Gungans and Ewoks too
Why?
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Old 10-09-2004, 01:05 PM   #26
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Jedi would be good, but only "purist" Jedi. That means no ridiculous force powers (or all force powers for that matter), no saberstaff, just a lethal weapon and a madass agility. No stupid saber throw or force grip. Just pure Jedi.
I wouldn't mind them blocking all my shots when in a defensive stance, but they should have a much harder time with explosives. No silly force push for them. I wouldn't mind Jedi if they had to dodge, think, and not go around spamming force powers, and if they were by far the hardest class for n00bs to use.
TK-8252, as far as siege goes, the Jedi on Hoth were perfectly balanced. Low health and basic force powers made it easy to dispense the n00bs, and the good Jedi can be taken out if you can dodge. Desert was a different matter. Full health and a plethora of force powers rendered most infantry useless in open combat.
As long as they don't make Jedi too flashy, I'd be fine with having Jedi in the game.
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Old 10-09-2004, 01:09 PM   #27
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Quote:
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I don't want to unload my whole clip on a Jedi just to have my shots reflected back at me by some fanboy who must wave a glowstick.
But that wouldn't happen because chances are you would have to choose jedi as well to keep up. So you would have no gun to fire.

If there were Jedi in this game no one and I mean NO ONE would choose any other class of player for that exact reason. So the game would turn into a rather poor remake of the "Siege" gametype in "Jedi Academy".
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Old 10-09-2004, 01:28 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK-8252
I don't want to unload my whole clip on a Jedi just to have my shots reflected back at me by some fanboy who must wave a glowstick.

One major reason I got this game is so Star Wars gunners can have gun fights without being interrupted by Jedi - forcing you to retreat, wasting your ammo to be reflected right back at you, Force pushed down and rendered helpless, etc.

"Jedi could be balanced." Well, maybe, but I don't think so. Example of modded Jedi: MovieBattles II. Horrible overpowered Jedi. 3/4 of the players on MBII servers choose the Jedi class simply because they can't stand a chance as a gunner against a Jedi. Completely ruins the battle for everyone, and not to mention isn't canon. This could happen to SWBF too.



Why?
I completely agree, If they would make a Jedi class it would ruin the whole base of the game. And then LucasArts would have to make another class the "Bounty Hunters" which could somewhat repel the Jedi's

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Old 10-09-2004, 02:06 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK-8252
I don't want to unload my whole clip on a Jedi just to have my shots reflected back at me by some fanboy who must wave a glowstick.
You never played on a NF server did you? You don't need to worry about Pandemic putting controllable Jedi into this game. From your past comments I get the impression you didn't like Jedi in games, period, that's fine, but it's still just your opinion, and we've all got one of those. ; )

Jedi in SWBF are not uber right now. They are easy to kill and easy to avoid. They have no Force Powers (save the auto block/push rocket thing which can be circumvented by splash damage). Plus they are so rare most battles you won't have to deal with them at all (assuming they are even enabled, which they are not on most servers).

Quote:
One major reason I got this game is so Star Wars gunners can have gun fights without being interrupted by Jedi - forcing you to retreat, wasting your ammo to be reflected right back at you, Force pushed down and rendered helpless, etc.
See above reference to NF servers.

Quote:
"Jedi could be balanced." Well, maybe, but I don't think so. Example of modded Jedi: MovieBattles II. Horrible overpowered Jedi. 3/4 of the players on MBII servers choose the Jedi class simply because they can't stand a chance as a gunner against a Jedi. Completely ruins the battle for everyone, and not to mention isn't canon. This could happen to SWBF too.
Who cares about canon. So far there has never been a game that is fully compliant with canon. If modding tools are ever allowed, you can make the game as canon compliant if you want, but as with "reality" in games, it's something that is tossed out in favor of gameplay and fun. Sure, to some folks fun can only be had if something is "perfectly realistic to the movies" but that doesn't go for most. If the sales figures of these games are any indication... Heck, the entire EU exists because people want more, not just what is shown in the films! Games are official too, after all.

Quote:
Why?
For fun. Variety. Options. sh**s & giggles. ; )

Why do you want everything to be generic and remove Jedi? 'Cause to you that is "better" and "more fun."

We all have preferences. I'm for more options whenever possible. I don't think controllable Jedi will be in this game anytime soon, but not for same reason you don't want them.

You don't like Jedi in games, because you consider it "fanboyish." I just think that the game has so many other problems it would be a waste of time for them to add some completely new feature that they never planned on when they should spend it on fixing the other bugs and problems.

As of right now you should have no problems with Jedi being in Battlefront. Because you can simply toggle them off. And most servers have them off anyway, so you really have nothing to complain about. And if mods are released and people make Jedi controllable somehow, well, how are you going to stop them?

Again, I don't want to have a huge debate about the nature of Star Wars games. Maybe there are too many Jedi games. Who knows, but the fact is people like them, they're an integrated part of the Star Wars mythos. So they're never going to go away completely. And there are plenty of games that don't feature them as playable characters or allow them to be toggled off, so Jedi haters can have their fun too.


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Old 10-09-2004, 02:14 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by LoQ
But that wouldn't happen because chances are you would have to choose jedi as well to keep up. So you would have no gun to fire.

If there were Jedi in this game no one and I mean NO ONE would choose any other class of player for that exact reason. So the game would turn into a rather poor remake of the "Siege" gametype in "Jedi Academy".
That was never my experience in JA Siege, except on the Korriban level (where you could ONLY be Jedi). The fact is Jedi were good at certain tasks, poor at others. There were plenty of good reasons not to be Jedi. And in Siege Destroyer (Asteriods) class had literally no meaning.

I don't know what game you guys were playing, but it wasn't the same one I was apparently, and I hosted a public commercial Siege server that was quite popular for over 3 months, so it's not like I was sheltered. ; )

When I heard about this game I was EXPECTING it to blow JA Siege away. And while in some ways it does (the scale of the battles and variety of vehicles for example), in other ways it feels dumbed down and basic features (like rcon, secondary firing modes, more variety in voice commands, etc) are lacking. Sure JA Siege has only a few vehicles by comparison, but they're much easier to control and have better third person cameras than SWBF.

Pandemic did their darndest to make this a good game but were unfortunately handicapped by the LucasFilm DVD Hype machine and their marketing plans, and I applaud their efforts to patch the game. They've got a ways to go...

While I am not saying copy it, they could learn a thing or two from a modern FPS like JA or UT2k4 in terms of basic features and fine-tuning.


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Old 10-09-2004, 02:39 PM   #31
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This game was made for people to 'relive the most famous star wars battles' now I didnt see 20 jedi running around on endor or geonosis, did you? Having playable jedi takes away from what this game is ment to be (another reason to scrap the darktrooper). "I can only protect you, I cannot fight a war for you" One of Qui-Gon's great sayings which is true, you dont see jedi in a war because jedi just dont fight wars, sure they may oversee the battle of run past it to take out the sith lord but they never really participate.


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Old 10-09-2004, 03:02 PM   #32
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I'm fine with the AI Jedi. Infact I'd wish they could be made more useful (but not invincible like they are now). But playable Jedi (as in a class for anyone) would be a horrible mistake.

And when playing JA Siege, most of the time I found myself getting killed by Jedi most often. It's not balanced, sorry!

When I shoot my enemy, I want them to be injured. I don't want to find myself injured by my own shot. It's annoying and destroys the flow of the game.

I'll say again...

"We're keepers-of-the-peace, not soldiers." ~ Mace Windu
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Old 10-09-2004, 03:38 PM   #33
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Let's stop beating this dead horse....

...and start beating the people who keep bringing this up!

No matter what you want to think, this game is about not having Jedi!

"But practically every SW game has Jedi!"

Hence this one is unique, and that's what makes this game.

"But they could be balanced"

A: No they couldn't. At least not without making them suck, which would really piss off all the "i want j3diz!" people.
Boesn't matter anyways, because Jedi don't belomng in this game.

"They were balanced in JA Siege mode"

What the heck is wrong with you? No they weren't. You're an idiot if you think they were balanced.

"But you don't mind the AI Jedi."

DUH! At MOST there are TWO Jedi in a battle of dozens. They are stupid and not that impressive. They don't make or break the battle. They're simplistic and mostly there for flavor. And they're actual characters. Add player Jedi and lookie here we got a dozen nameless Jedi wandering around Hoth. Just like in the movies!

"You always just say 'Go play JA'"

I wonder why? Maybe because you should just shut up and go play JA.

"But I'm bored of playing with Guns!"

Then go play JA.

"There's no reason not to have them!"

Except that the ENTIRE point of the ENTIRE game is to NOT play as a Jedi.


Even if you discount all the thousands of rational arguments against having Jedi, there's always the plain and simple fact that this game isn't about Jedi. It's about not jedi. That's what this game is about, and thats why this game exists. To not play as Jedi. So get over it, because there will never be Jedi, because that defies the point, and there are PLENTY of other games to play as a Jedi. Namely JA.

In conclusion:

SHUT UP!!! YOU'RE WRONG SO JUST SHUT UP!!!!


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Old 10-09-2004, 03:42 PM   #34
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Again...My point exactly

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Old 10-09-2004, 04:25 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by JawaJoey
Let's stop beating this dead horse....

...and start beating the people who keep bringing this up!

No matter what you want to think, this game is about not having Jedi!
I thought the point was to "control any battle from the Star Wars Universe!" And I hate to break it to you man, but the game already has Jedi. Vader, Luke, Mace Windu, and Count Dooku. ; )

Quote:
"But practically every SW game has Jedi!"

Hence this one is unique, and that's what makes this game.
No other Star Wars game has what this game has, which is massive ground battles where you can control an individual soldier in a First or Third Person viewpoint. Sure we've had Star Wars FPS games before, but not on this grand a scale with all kinds of vehicles you can control.

This is the same problem I had with people arguing about the JK games. They were angry that people wanted to "fight with guns." They yelled "go play Quake or UT if you want guns, this is about sabers!" but they forgot that guns were in the game and part of the game.

Well, Jedi are in the game and part of the game here too, you just can't take control of them. I'm not arguing that you should be able to. Even if I was, it's way too much work. But if some mod maker wants to TRY once the tools are out, well... so what?

Quote:
"But they could be balanced"

A: No they couldn't. At least not without making them suck, which would really piss off all the "i want j3diz!" people.
Says who? Surely you're not saying that because some mod making team failed to do it or that it didn't work to your satisfaction in Siege_Desert in JA that this means its impossible... I've suggested some ways it could work, I don't see you addressing those.

The only arguments that have sofar been made as to why Jedi shouldn't be playable is that 1) everyone would use them and nobody would use any other class. 2) that's not how the movies went! and 3) they would be too powerful and unbalance the game.

1) isn't valid, unless you believe that JA Siege was nothing but Jedi fighting Jedi, which it most surely was not (not in my experience). Because Jedi had definate limitations and drawbacks. Jedi could be limited in still other ways for this game, per the developer's discretion.

2) isn't valid because the Jedi have taken on the role of soldiers in the Star Wars canon and fought in large battles before. The Jedi/Sith war wasn't shown on screen, but it too is part of canon (TPM novelisation).

3) isn't valid because the Jedi would not have to be made "that powerful." Nobody says a Jedi has to be god-like in this game. Already vast changes have been made to "Star Wars reality" to facilitate game balance. For example Stormtrooper armor is much stronger than it is in the movies, and weapons need to reload (something never witnessed in any SW movies to date). Likewise we have things like ARC Troopers and Dark Troopers, which never appeared in any movie, and the list goes on.

Quote:
Boesn't matter anyways, because Jedi don't belomng in this game.
That's a tautology, and wrong, because Jedi are in the game already. If they don't belong there, that's your opinion, obviously one Pandemic didn't agree with when they put Jedi into the game. They didn't allow you to play as them, but ignoring that makes your statement incorrect.

Quote:
"They were balanced in JA Siege mode"

What the heck is wrong with you? No they weren't. You're an idiot if you think they were balanced.
I'm an idiot then. Thanks. Even if I'm the world's biggest idiot though, are you saying it's impossible to make Jedi balanced with the other classes? With a little imagination I'm sure one can come up with ways to balance them. These need not be Jedi Gods.

This game isn't about one on one fighting (and neither was JA Siege).

Quote:
"But you don't mind the AI Jedi."

DUH! At MOST there are TWO Jedi in a battle of dozens. They are stupid and not that impressive. They don't make or break the battle. They're simplistic and mostly there for flavor. And they're actual characters. Add player Jedi and lookie here we got a dozen nameless Jedi wandering around Hoth. Just like in the movies!
Actually the general AI stupidity bothers me a great deal. That's not a valid argument because many of the battles seen in this game are not like they were in the movies. I don't remember any ARC Troopers or Dark Troopers in any SW movie battle, and there was only one Wookiee in any of them (Chewie). Sure, in SP the battles are closer to the movies, but in MP, all bets are off.

Would you have such a problem with Playable Jedi if there were still only one per team and his powers were limited to what you see with the AI Jedi? It would be the same as it is now, except the Jedi would be smarter.

I don't see what's so objectionable to that idea.


Quote:
"You always just say 'Go play JA'"

I wonder why? Maybe because you should just shut up and go play JA.
Yeah, or maybe other people have their own opinions about mod making. ; )

I agree that JA is the game if you want Jedi, since they are already there and better than they could ever be in this game (unless of course Pandemic devotes themselves to a Jedi supporting Expansion pack which is by no means a given).

I can also say if you want to fly Starships, go play X-Wing Alliance or XvT.

This game is about armies fighting each other in the Star Wars universe with control of the individual troops (rather than a strategy game where you command units, but don't actually control them), that will remain unique about this game, regardless of if there are Jedi in it or not.

If you want a pure guns game, go play Republic Commando (when it comes out)! There's also Dark Forces and the Rogue Squadron series.

Quote:
"But I'm bored of playing with Guns!"

Then go play JA.
But there are guns in JA!

Then you say "So go play KOTOR series."

Quote:
"There's no reason not to have them!"

Except that the ENTIRE point of the ENTIRE game is to NOT play as a Jedi.
Says you, but that's by no means a given. Where do you get this? Oh that's right, it's your opinion. If I said "THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS GAME IS TO KILL EWOKS" that is my opinion too. But it's not a fact.

Quote:
Even if you discount all the thousands of rational arguments against having Jedi, there's always the plain and simple fact that this game isn't about Jedi. It's about not jedi. That's what this game is about, and thats why this game exists. To not play as Jedi.
That's a tautology. Sorry to keep this going, but that's literally not an argument.

I'm right because what I say is true. And what I say is true is because I'm right. Because I am right. Right? Right. Saying that your opinion is the self evident truth isn't proven, so what's the point?

Quote:
So get over it, because there will never be Jedi, because that defies the point, and there are PLENTY of other games to play as a Jedi. Namely JA.
What will you do if somebody mods in playable Jedi or if Pandemic releases an Expansion Pack with playable Jedi? Throw away the game?

Unless every server adopts the playable Jedi using mods, you can always just visit another server or create your own. Otherwise you adopt the slippery slope fallacy... if Jedi become playable, the game will become Jedi only and be ruined.

Quote:
In conclusion:

SHUT UP!!! YOU'RE WRONG SO JUST SHUT UP!!!! [/B]
And my opinion is keep talking, this is a fascinating discussion, and it can be done in a civilized manner, as you see. Perhaps you haven't considered HOW Jedi could be made playable in the game without it being "ruined."

I've suggested some ways, but instead all I've been hearing is the same four reasons, which I addressed.

I'm kind of being a devil's advocate here because I don't think playable Jedi are going to happen in this game, not unless Pandemic does the work for it in a commercial expansion or sequel, but I just think some of the anti-Jedi reasoning here is flawed.

Here's some possible ways that playable Jedi could be balanced in this game:

1) Keep their powers limited (like they are now).

2) Make them fragile (low health).

3) Make it so they can't capture command points.

4) Make it so they can't man vehicles.

5) Limit the number of Jedi per team, per map.

6) Make being a Jedi a reward based on certain things, such as a high level of awards or kills, possibly in a previous map. And you can only be a Jedi for a certain amount of time or respawns. Perhaps a team has to "earn points" by how well they did (sort of like an online version of the Galactic Conquest mode in SP) and they can use these points to "buy" Jedi respawns. That would limit Jedi usage to how well you actually do.

Or here's another one, make it so that in a map there is a "captured Jedi" in a prison cell or something, and if you rescue him, you can take control of him (and the character who rescued him turns into AI or changes places with him in the prison cell). That way you'd have to work for it. The requirements for rescuing him could be anything you want. Perhaps the door has to be "hacked" to be opened, which takes time. Perhaps it's heavily guarded (by Wampas or something, heh), or deep in the heart of enemy territory.

Or perhaps there's a "Jedi Control Point" in enemy territory, and once you capture it, you get the Jedi class, but if you lose it, no more Jedi until you hold it again. Each team could have one.

All kinds of possibilities.


7) Limit Jedi respawns (already this is the case with the AI Jedi.. once your reinforcements are too low, the Jedi dies automatically). Perhaps make it so that you only get ONE Jedi per map, per team, just one, and when he dies, no more. Who gets to be the Jedi? Make it random. Or make it based on who did the best in the last round, or base it on the Leaderboard stats. Or make it an "option" that a team leader assigns. Ie: Bill, you get to be the Jedi, *poof* he's the Jedi for that team for that map until he dies.

8) Put limits on Jedi blocking (such as "blocking mana" like they had in Jedi Power Battles). Or make it so the person has to target the actual blaster shot to block (rather than what the AI does which is block anything, unless it's splash damage at their feet). Or do like the TPM Game and make it so they have to physically "bat" away each shot. Or remove the ability to block stuff.

9) Make the Jedi use up Mana everytime they "push" something. Limit their mana regeneration. Make it require a button press at the right moment. Make only certain projectiles Pushable (ie: make them vulnerable to certain weapons). Or remove the ability to Push stuff.

10) Make Jedi move or attack (or both) slower.

11) Don't make Jedi Dueling possible. Ie: no saber clashes, no challenges (no point in making extra work for yourself). In JA Siege you couldn't duel, and you couldn't clash. So Jedi would fight, they wouldn't duel. Sides, if Jedi are limited, who cares if two Jedi are dueling while the rest of the game fights each other?

12) Keep Jedi a "toggle on or off" option, as it is now. Don't want Jedi? Turn 'em off. Want 'em? Turn 'em on.

I'm sure you can think of more...

That won't please Jedi "fanboys" as you say, but then they can just play JA, right? ; )

These are ways you could make Jedi playable, yet make them "weak" enough that they won't dominate the battlefield and make it so that NOT "everyone wants to be one" and "nobody wants to be anything but a Jedi."


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Old 10-09-2004, 04:58 PM   #36
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Re: TK-8252

Quote:
Originally posted by TK-8252
I'm fine with the AI Jedi. Infact I'd wish they could be made more useful (but not invincible like they are now). But playable Jedi (as in a class for anyone) would be a horrible mistake.

And when playing JA Siege, most of the time I found myself getting killed by Jedi most often. It's not balanced, sorry!
I killed quite a few Jedi in my games too, as a non-Jedi. I guess we just had different experiences. ; )


Quote:
When I shoot my enemy, I want them to be injured. I don't want to find myself injured by my own shot. It's annoying and destroys the flow of the game.
In my post above I suggest some ways around that. Realistically (mythos speaking) there are ways to kill Jedi, such as unblockable weapons, explosives, massed firepower, distractions, vehicles, etc.

Where Jedi could potentially be a problem is in the infantry only maps (since vehicles are the easiest way to kill Jedi, even non-invincible Jedi). Simple solution to fix that? Don't allow Jedi except in maps with vehicles. Or simply make it so they can't push/block certain weapons.

Remember what Anakin said to Qui Gon? "Nobody can kill a Jedi!" and the response? "I wish that were so."

I agree with you that the AI Jedi should be improved (along with the rest of the AI).

I imagine your nightmare scenario for this game is a simple "Jedi Class" with no restrictions on usage that is as powerful as the Jedi in Jedi Academy running around killing everything in sight. It doesn't have to be that way, and I think that way would be way to hard to create anyway (except for a proffessional design team). The Star Wars Quake/2 TC Team worked on making Jedi from scratch for like 6 years (1996-2002) and they couldn't pull it off.

Something else I should mention is the game Mysteries of the Sith. In that game you could play with limited Jedi vs. Non-Jedi and it was quite fun. Of course it was still FFA/Team FFA, it wasn't about two armies fighting. And in that case the non-Jedi were balanced by giving them low level Force abilities + resistance to certain Force Powers.

Quote:
I'll say again...

"We're keepers-of-the-peace, not soldiers." ~ Mace Windu
Mace Windu is a soldier by the end of the movie, as are a large number of Jedi. Watch it again. ; )

Actions speak louder than words!


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Old 10-09-2004, 05:05 PM   #37
TK-8252
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Quote:
Originally posted by JawaJoey
Let's stop beating this dead horse....

...and start beating the people who keep bringing this up!
*Whacks Kurgan with my E-11*

Now, no Jedi.
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Old 10-09-2004, 05:21 PM   #38
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This is the same type of thing that has drug SWG under. (The debate about Jedi.) To be a Jedi or not to be a Jedi? That is the question.

The AI Jedi in this game are meant as reward and special use AI Character you get during game play. They aren't meant to be a playable class in the game or they would be. Like someone else has said "they are there for flavor," because it is Star Wars and a few people expect some kind of Jedi content in the game for that reason alone.

"Kurgan" You are just arguing for the sake of arguing over a point that few people support.

The current state of the game it very clear that Jedi are not meant to be in the game "as a playable class." <-- LOOK THERE. Obviously they are in game and meant to be in game for the before resons I stated above. They were never intended to be a playable class and probly given their state added at request just for the sake of having Jedi. Again for the resions I have said aleady.

ARC Troopers, Dark Troopers and Wookiees to me are a lot more acceptable then Jedi. As they have no special powers and are equal to any other class in the game. They don't encourage people to stand around, chat, and have personal little duals.

I think the subject of Jedi in this game is more routed in personal feelings then game play, balance, or other issues. People don't want this to be Jedi Battlefront "You Idiot you lamed me I had my saber down."

As for my personal opinion I have NO disire to play "Jedi Battlefront" Much like I had NO disire to play "Jedi Galaxies."


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Old 10-09-2004, 05:25 PM   #39
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There would really be no whining about laming (since lightsabers are always ignited anyway ), but I could see problems with Jedi always wanting to "duel" right in the middle of a battle. Then when the real soldiers start shooting into "duels," the Jedi start whining "OMG NOOB STOP SHOOTING DOOLERZ!1"
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Old 10-09-2004, 05:37 PM   #40
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Re: Cosmos Jack

Quote:
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
The AI Jedi in this game are meant as reward and special use AI Character you get during game play. They aren't meant to be a playable class in the game or they would be.
But, they could be and still work if they were done right, that was my point. The opposition hasn't addressed that part yet.


Quote:
Like someone else has said "they are there for flavor," because it is Star Wars and a few people expect some kind of Jedi content in the game for that reason alone.
Yes, some people are that way. And some other people are assuming that this game is "too pure" for Jedi, and that only fanboys could possibly want to be Jedi.

The fact is that Jedi fought in some of the battles portrayed in these games, and being able to control them would not be unnatural. It's just more work for whoever is making them playable, but not a lot if they are limited Jedi (as the AI are) and not "uber Jedi" as the ones in games like JK2 and JA are (compared to the generic troops I mean).

Quote:
"Kurgan" You are just arguing for the sake of arguing over a point that few people support.
I don't know if few people support the idea or not. Some do, otherwise the issue wouldn't have been brought up at all. We'll see if Pandemic or the mod makers (if there are any) respond to the idea.

I admit, I do love a good debate, but the idea has intruiged me. It was fun to think of ways that they could be made to work.

Quote:
The current state of the game it very clear that Jedi are not meant to be in the game "as a playable class." <-- LOOK THERE.
Just keeping you honest. ; )

Quote:
Obviously they are in game and meant to be in game for the before resons I stated above. They were never intended to be a playable class and probly given there state added at request just for the sake of having Jedi. Again for the resions I have said aleady.
I don't think this was based on a fan request, as we heard about their being Jedi as soon as we heard about the game. I imagine this was a creative decision. See my ideas about Jedi remaining a bonus unit, rather than a regular unit.

Quote:
ARC Troopers, Dark Troopers and Wookiees to me are a lot more acceptable then Jedi. As they have no special powers and are equal to any other class in the game. They don't encourage people to stand around, chat, and have personal little duals.
I never said to put duels into the game did I? How many duels went on in Siege and CTF games in JA/JK2? None that I can recall. Such a game mode doesn't lend itself to dueling. Where people dueled were in the saber challenges (built into the game) and Duel mode (built into the game). If there are only two Jedi on the entire map, I suppose they could try to duel, but they'll by killed by anybody near them. As to standing around chatting, those people will get killed too. Perhaps you can get away with that kind of whining in a Duel map or even a FFA, but in a team based game? Those people would be laughed off the server.

You're assuming that making Jedi playable will make the JA/JK2 "h0n0r c0d3 d00dz" play this game and try to ruin it. That's the slippery slope fallacy.

Quote:
I think the subject of Jedi in this game is more routed in personal feelings then game play, balance, or other issues. People don't want this to be Jedi Battlefront "You Idiot you lamed me I had my saber down."
So don't make it possible to put your saber down. Problem solved!

Maybe it is routed in personal feelings. I see people who don't want Jedi to be playable insulting others who do, and yelling about how the game will be "ruined" and the "fanboys" will take over, etc. I'm not offended that there are no playable Jedi in the game. I do admit that the Jedi in the game are pretty worthless, and I say to myself "if I were controlling Darth Vader, he might actually help his team." As of now you can't even give them orders!

But having a playable Jedi could add more flavor to the game and make for some interesting scenarios (if mods are allowed and created, and for any future expansions).

Quote:
As for my personal opinion I have disire to play "Jedi Battlefront" Much like I had no disire to play "Jedi Galaxies."
You're entitled to your opinion of course. But you make it sound as if playable Jedi are in the game and then it will become ABOUT JEDI, rather than having them as a feature. I think that's a leap in logic.

Interesting that you would bring up SWG, because, while I don't play that game (and have no plans to) I've read that it's not easy to become a Jedi, and they are limited in what they can do. It's not as if people sign up just to become a Jedi (unless they're insane and like spending lots of time and money.. but then again, maybe that is how MMORPG players are... j/k). ; )

Like it or not, Jedi are a central part of Star Wars, so they will continue to be in Star Wars games. But that doesn't mean they need to play an equal role in all games, as I've stated. Seriously, read some of the ideas I posted. If you think seriously about them I think you'll find less reason to dismiss the idea out of hand (except the paranoid notion that this will turn into a dueling-based game if Jedi are allowed to be selectable).


Here's another idea: People hate Ewoks and Gungans, and yet they love that they are in the game. Why? Cause it's fun to kill 'em!

Imagine two Jedi "dueling" in the middle of the map, and then running them both over with a Wheel Droid. Pwn3d!


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