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View Poll Results: Do you think it would be cool to have playable Jedi?
YES ! I want to be a Jedi wah wah wah 40 28.78%
NO ! This game is for the grunts only 79 56.83%
I really don't care 20 14.39%
Voters: 139. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: 'Playable Jedi' Debate (merged, no flaming)
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Old 10-09-2004, 07:25 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
But, they could be and still work if they were done right, that was my point. The opposition hasn't addressed that part yet.
We have.. We don't want Jedi... Work or no I don't think it really changes what the argument is about. We just don't want Jedi, we don't feel that the game is about being a Jedi, and playing one or whatever.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Yes, some people are that way. And some other people are assuming that this game is "too pure" for Jedi, and that only fanboys could possibly want to be Jedi.
That's is a pretty good assumption.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
The fact is that Jedi fought in some of the battles portrayed in these games, and being able to control them would not be unnatural. It's just more work for whoever is making them playable, but not a lot if they are limited Jedi (as the AI are) and not "uber Jedi" as the ones in games like JK2 and JA are (compared to the generic troops I mean).
Is it so bad to actually want a game in the Star Wars universe that doesn't have to do with Jedi? Seriously................

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
I don't know if few people support the idea or not. Some do, otherwise the issue wouldn't have been brought up at all. We'll see if Pandemic or the mod makers (if there are any) respond to the idea.
The only good thing about this is if someone does add Jedi it will have to be a MOD and not all the servers will support it. I honestly hope Pandemic does not do something like that.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
I don't think this was based on a fan request, as we heard about their being Jedi as soon as we heard about the game. I imagine this was a creative decision. See my ideas about Jedi remaining a bonus unit, rather than a regular unit.
I never said anything about fan request more like a LA request.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
I never said to put duels into the game did I? How many duels went on in Siege and CTF games in JA/JK2?
Actually I have seen it and even been kicked for killing the guy my team mate was dueling with.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
You're assuming that making Jedi playable will make the JA/JK2 "h0n0r c0d3 d00dz" play this game and try to ruin it. That's the slippery slope fallacy.
Really...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
So don't make it possible to put your saber down. Problem solved!
If only that would fix everything...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
But having a playable Jedi could add more flavor to the game and make for some interesting scenarios (if mods are allowed and created, and for any future expansions).
Kind of like when you pop in During a Clone Wars game and 3/4 of the Clones are Jet Troopers? Not that I care just something that I have noticed. One time I was gang banged by 6 or 7 Jet trooper flying at me I had no chance. lol Not all but 3/4 of the player would go Jedi if they were there.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
You're entitled to your opinion of course. But you make it sound as if playable Jedi are in the game and then it will become ABOUT JEDI, rather than having them as a feature. I think that's a leap in logic.
What logic are you using?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Interesting that you would bring up SWG, because, while I don't play that game (and have no plans to) I've read that it's not easy to become a Jedi, and they are limited in what they can do. It's not as if people sign up just to become a Jedi (unless they're insane and like spending lots of time and money.. but then again, maybe that is how MMORPG players are... j/k). ; )
Have you ever gone to the official boards? Yep people sign up just to become Jedi and it's not nearly as hard as it was now. Maybe 1/2 the population did nothing, but grind to become Jedi. Almost everyone I ran into said I'm trying to be a Jedi. Jedi had a smaller part in Galaxies then they do in BF in the original plan for the game. Now they have pretty much tailored the game around the Idea.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Like it or not, Jedi are a central part of Star Wars, so they will continue to be in Star Wars games. But that doesn't mean they need to play an equal role in all games, as I've stated. Seriously, read some of the ideas I posted. If you think seriously about them I think you'll find less reason to dismiss the idea out of hand (except the paranoid notion that this will turn into a dueling-based game if Jedi are allowed to be selectable).
I have read your ideas and frankly just don't care for it. I have no real interest in having Jedi in this game in any shape form or fashion. If anything The AI ones should be removed for just being pointless. Good thing it is an option to turn them off.


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Old 10-09-2004, 07:38 PM   #42
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Alright, I can argue siege all day with all y'all. First of all, I agree with you that Desert Rescue was horribly unbalanced, with Jedi having increased health, grip, rage, level 3 pull, etc. However, Hoth was pretty much perfectly balanced. As a demolitions or tech defending Hoth, I could easily eat up Jedi no problem. Same on the attack. If they could make a realistic Jedi (e.g. no bogus force powers) without unbalancing the whole game and make him have a purpose like all other classes (like in siege where Jedi were used primarily for their mobility) then I would be fine with them.
Either way, Jedi or no Jedi, I'm happy with this game...
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Old 10-09-2004, 07:53 PM   #43
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Re: Cosmos Jack

Quote:
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
We have.. We don't want Jedi... Work or no I don't think it really changes what the argument is about. We just don't want Jedi, we don't feel that the game is about being a Jedi, and playing one or whatever.



That's is a pretty good assumption.
Actually this wasn't the argument, the argument was that Jedi are too powerful or don't fit into the movies.

But you're saying that EVEN THOUGH they could be balanced and would fit canon (in other words there's no logical reason why they couldn't be made playable in the game), you don't want them. So it's a purely subjective value-judgement based on your opinion.

Concession accepted then. Now it all depends on how many people want Jedi and the influence they have over those with the power to make it happen. ; )


Quote:
Is it so bad to actually want a game in the Star Wars universe that doesn't have to do with Jedi? Seriously................
It isn't a bad thing no, it's just a personal taste. I would hazard to say that more than half of all Star Wars games don't feature playable Jedi (at least not in the way we think of... swinging sabers or using the Force). And not all of the ones that do have them in a central role (SWG for example, and this game).

Your reasoning now is purely a matter of taste, and that's not something I can argue, because I'm not you, and your preferences are you own.

Quote:
The only good thing about this is if someone does add Jedi it will have to be a MOD and not all the servers will support it. I honestly hope Pandemic does not do something like that.
Not if Pandemic adds them in an expansion or sequel (I doubt they'd do them in a patch, but you never know).

Actually the ideas I suggested wouldn't require that much work on their part. All they would have to do is create a bonus unit (they would have to decide how to award that bonus unit, I listed some ideas that would be feasible in theory). They could make it a seperate game option in the server (checkbox next to "Playable Jedi" for example).

Making JA style uber jedi WOULD require a lot of work and I don't forsee that happening at all except in some mod team's wildest dreams. But basic "weak Jedi" would theoretically take no time at all. So I can see that happening, if Pandemic decides it's worthwhile.

I see it as this: Imagine the game exactly as it is now, with only one Jedi per team if the server allows it, except now that Jedi is not "invincible" and can be controlled by a human. Even without the limitations I suggested, that's still really no big deal.

Quote:
I never said anything about fan request more like a LA request.
Do we know that for a fact? You're implying that Pandemic didn't want to put Jedi in the game, but LA forced them to. That's an interesting theory, but where's your proof?

Quote:
Actually I have seen it and even been kicked for killing the guy my team mate was dueling with.
What are you talking about? Dueling with pistols at 20 paces in SWBF?

If that's true, then I rest my case, not having Jedi wont' solve this problem if it already exists!

In SWG that's not an issue because only the sysops or whatever they are called (akin to "dungeon masters" in a traditional fantasy RPG) can do that, and if you are messing with one of them, well you deserve it.

In JK2/JA there was a problem with people getting kicked for interrupting duels, but most duelers figured out that if they wanted to do they had a few choices: 1) have a private duel so nobody else can attack them 2) play on a duel server or 3) use a mod that allows them to have multiple duels without problems.

If sabers can't be turned off, there's no saber locking, and no private duel mode, there's little reason to assume that people will start being mass kicked for killing a pair of Jedi who are "dueling" in a hypothetical Jedi-playable SWBF server.

If playable Jedi are added, do you think it might be possible for somebody to host a game with two players only for Dueling purposes? Maybe.

But it depends on how Jedi are implemented. If they are a special bonus that is only awarded for doing certain things, it might be impossible to get Jedi unless you played a normal game then kicked everybody out. And you could prevent that from happening by making it so if your team is gone, you stop being a Jedi (minimum player number on a team for a Jedi to be usable).

Quote:
Kind of like when you pop in During a Clone Wars game and 3/4 of the Clones are Jet Troopers? Not that I care just something that I have noticed. One time I was gang banged by 6 or 7 Jet trooper flying at me I had no chance. lol Not all but 3/4 of the player would go Jedi if they were there.
I've never seen that, but then I haven't played MP all that much. In Siege it was never my experience that everyone used the same class (well, I admit, the default Assault class was used a lot, mainly because he could accomplish every objective, and was the easiest to learn, even if other classes were better at certain objects and weak on others).

If you are limited to only one Jedi per team, this problem disappears. Did anyone actually read what I wrote?

Quote:
What logic are you using?
I'm using my experiences as an online game, and common sense based on the fact that developers can implement solutions to balance problems (or percieved problems) if they set their minds to it. I'm also using the logic of the Star Wars films, that some are trying to use as a reason why Jedi shouldn't be controllable in this game, which I have pointed out (using examples from the films) as invalid. The Star Wars mythos itself refutes their claims. So in the end we just have a person animus in seeing people control Jedi in a game.


Quote:
Have you ever gone to the official boards? Yep people sign up just to become Jedi and it's not nearly as hard as it was now. Maybe 1/2 the population did nothing, but grind to become Jedi. Almost everyone I ran into said I'm trying to be a Jedi. Jedi had a smaller part in Galaxies then they do in BF in the original plan for the game. Now they have pretty much tailored the game around the Idea.
Again I can't say I know the situation, I was just curious.

Still, in a game like that, what else IS THERE new to do? That's why they keep adding new stuff, to keep it interesting. When they add Jump to Lightspeed, the focus of the game for many will be to fly ships around. What's wrong with that?

In SWBF, if Jedi are made playable, yes, of course people are going to want to play as them. But if you limit it, then it won't become the focus of the game, nor will it dominate the game. It's like the decision to add Dark Troopers to the game instead of something else.

Does everyone want to be only Dark Troopers? Not that I know of. Granted, Jedi have probably more appeal than Dark troopers, but still. If they are not uber powerful and you can only "earn them" or they are randomly assigned, then there is no reason to worry about legions of Darth Vader's overrunning your base of Rebels.

Quote:
I have read your ideas and frankly just don't care for it. I have no real interest in having Jedi in this game in any shape form or fashion.
Then I guess you lost! Better make sure that box next to "Heroes" is unchecked on the server you join or host.

I just don't see why allowing Jedi to be playable will Force everyone to put up with legions of Jedi. I've shown why this "worst case scenario" needn't be reality.

Quote:
If anything The AI ones should be removed for just being pointless. Good thing it is an option to turn them off.
Personally I think the AI in general is pretty worthless. Many servers in fact have turned off AI completely.

But I think if it were properly tweaked, the AI could work well and be a benefit, just as if the Jedi were tweaked and fine tuned they too could add to the game, rather than just taking up space. Playable Jedi too could add to the game, if done properly.

I'm glad we had this discussion, it's really opened my eyes to your line of reasoning. I don't agree with it, but at least I understand it now.


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Last edited by Kurgan; 10-10-2004 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 10-09-2004, 08:05 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
What are you talking about? Dueling with pistols at 20 paces in SWBF?
He means in Jedi Academy (or Outcast, which ever).

Seriously, I mean, for Jedi to be balanced, they'd have to be darn near worthless. Anyone who picks Jedi would just be wasting a reinforcement. The only way I could see a Jedi being balanced is you have to stand still to block, blocking drains your Force energy, and has to move in order to dodge explosives. Force jump high enough to get you on a Mos Eisely building. Force push only knocks you back and not down. That's it. Not much of a Jedi, eh? Well, that's what a "playable Jedi" would be in SWBF. Who would want to be that? Anyone who does is truely just a waste for the team.
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Old 10-09-2004, 08:13 PM   #45
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TK-8252, that would be a great Jedi class. Sure, it's not n00b friendly, but experienced players can exploit it to its full potential. The Jedi lacks range, but is far more agile than infantry units, and has an instant kill weapon. You won't be able to become a skilled Jedi overnight, but practice dodging, learn how to use a saber, and use geurilla tactics and the Jedi could become the most lethal player on the server. Of course, it would have it's weaknesses (droidekas, oribital strikes, or even thermals), so I can see it being a balanced unit.
Just my opinion...
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Old 10-09-2004, 08:27 PM   #46
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sircursealot is right, they would not be "worthless" since their saber is a deadly weapon.

Actually, TK's giving the Jedi more powers than the AI Jedi have, like Force Jump (akin to the Dark Trooper Jump jets I suppose?) and Force Push against bodies (rather than just missiles).

My idea of Jedi would be that they would be just like the AI Jedi but actually lose health when they are hit. They could have Force Heal, like the AI Jedi but it would be a power you'd have to actively "use" and it would use up mana (so less mana for pushing or blocking).

One way to do blocking would be like the Jedi Power Battles idea (much as I hated that game). Hold the button down and you will block any blaster shot that hits your front, basically. But every deflection lowers your mana. Once your mana is depleted, you are hit by projectiles even if you hold block. And to deflect back at the shooter you have to tap the button as the projectile is hitting your blade (possible since most of the projectiles are not instant hit, but takes practice and timing). Mana would continuously recharge like a Jettrooper or Dark Trooper's jetpack or the pistols and vehicle weapons that recharge (from "overheating").

Or we could dispense with the "Force Push" altogether and just use the same method for Deflections as with Rockets. Except the animation would be of the Jedi waving his hand (actually the AI Jedi do a "block pose" when sending rockets back IIRC) for added realism.

The strength of these bonus Jedi would be the strength of the Jedi now, except they wouldn't be immortal, so once Dooku gets knocked on his a$$ a couple of times, he's gone, rather than just getting up as if nothing happened.

So let's say this is how the buttons are for a hypothetical Jedi:

Movement: Just like normal (wasd)

Aiming: Just like normal (mouse)

Zoom: Same. Either remove it or leave it (but remove the "sniper view" since it's just looking around).

Jumping: Normal, except if you want a Force Jump just give them the same ability like Dark Troopers have, but without the jets coming out of the back.

Attack: Primary fire would be the generic saber swing that would be insta-kill at close range on all infantry units and do a sizable amount of damage to vehicles (perhaps as much as a rocket or grenade hit?).

Secondary Attack: Secondary Fire would be the deflection button, that uses up mana. Tap to deflect at the attacker. Hold to deflect anything hitting you in front (in random directions), but not splash damage at your feet, etc. Uses up mana with each successful deflection.

Force Heal: This could be done as the "secondary grenade" type deal. Hit G to switch to "Force Heal" and secondary fire to activate it to heal yourself with the blue effect. I hate the "switching grenade type" thing with no hotkey, but for limitations of Jedi purposes, this is fine since it would take an extra step for Jedi to heal themselves. This would also use up mana.

There would be one mana pool for all three powers, that recharged with time. Once depleted, no powers could be used until you had enough.

Walking and blocking to me isn't a big deal, but if necessary you could add that if needed to further weaken the Jedi for balance sake.

Crouching would be the same, as would picking up objects (Power Droids would recharge nothing obviously). You could crawl on your belly, but you couldn't be able to attack from that position (unless you wanted to add some animation of swiping at the enemy's legs or something I guess). Rolling to the side would be the same. There would be no need for reloading or switching of weapons (Saber only, always ignited).

Also the saber hum (and the heavy breathing in the case of Vader) would always give away your position when you were fairly close.


You guys both have the right idea. By not making Jedi anymore powerful than they already are, and thinking logically about how to implement the powers they currently have, it could easily fit the game. They would be more useful than the AI Jedi because humans can actually think, and so they would still be an asset but avoid the "Fanboy" factor as well. ; )

The only real trick is deciding WHO gets to be a Jedi (unless you think the above is sufficient to make Jedi a selectable class that anybody can be, in any number you want on the team). Hence my suggestions about having to "earn" it somehow. If there is only one Jedi per team people will fight over it unless it's a reward of some kind.


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Old 10-09-2004, 08:43 PM   #47
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Kurgan, you think too much


No really, it might be fun to be a Jedi, but there's no use in speculating now...




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Old 10-09-2004, 08:46 PM   #48
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Wink

Hey, I like speculating, what's wrong with that? ; )

Though you have a point. Until the time (if any) that mod tools are released, it's just a dream. *sigh*


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Old 10-09-2004, 09:03 PM   #49
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Yea, I don't see how having a Battlefield-type game and no modding tools is good..




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Old 10-09-2004, 09:25 PM   #50
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Yeah, I like Kurgan's model for a Jedi class (with the possible exception of force heal... maybe). They could do a point system like in Enemy Territory so only players with a high experience could play as Jedi, but then again, I hate it when certain players have a given advantage over others...


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Old 10-09-2004, 10:00 PM   #51
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just because this topic is too juicy to ignore, i'm going to offer my .02 cents. granted, my opinion means as much as everyone else's but hey ... "he can't write so much as type"...

now, let me preface this by saying that my experience with playing "Jedi" is limited to JKII and JA. These games allow me to play saber combat and feed my "i have a light saber and can wipe out Imperials" fetish. Fun stuff. JKII was probably more fulfilling that JA since you appreciated the saber once you got it and there were many situations where guns were more strategic to sabers. JA was a lot of force speed + slicey slice slice. rinse. repeate.

I never bothered with multiplayer simply becuase i saw a server full of jedi doing the exact same thing i did in the single player (i.e., deflect lasers, push people off ledges, jump high and pull people up just so they can fall, choke, etc etc) incredibly boring.

So, I'm going to approach this like I would the ONE game I DO know something about multiplayer.

Quake III.

Quake III has a lot of weapons. It's fairly balanced. However, there's one weapon that separates the men from the boys. The RailGun. Granted, you can counter it. Keep them at a distance, fire rockets, don't let them keep you in the open for long. However, if they're persistent and have hype aim the railgun will get you in the end. Crazy thing about the railgun, it's a point click instant death weapon. The early days of RA3 with default amour, two rails shots and it was over get in line bitch. Things changed, but the railgun remained the definitive weapon. newbs spammed plasma. hpb's spammed rockets and hoped for some splash damage. the real players, i mean the low ping god i hate you you must be cheating bastards used the lightning gun and rail gun explictly. they were weapons of finesse. a civilized weapon from a more civilized era if you will.

so, what's this got to do with Battlefront?

probably ****all in reality but what i'm getting as is this ...

if you wanted to be most excellent with the rail, you had to have a low ping. it was all that mattered. unless you had some sick prediction skills, the guy pinging 30 could easily take the guy pinging 100. this is what i'm afraid is going to happen with the jedi.

jedi combat is saber intensive. make them low in health if you want, the inherent nature of the saber calls for quick deadly kills. the sniper rifle is pretty deadly but even IT has to have at least two shots to take out heavy armor. sabers, logically, should be able to do that quicker. after all, it's the whole jedi thing right? so ..

you're a guy playing a imperial rocket dude. you ping 100 but yet you're pretty damn good at taking out the vehicles and groups of those rebel scum. you offer covering fire and heavy artillery to many an assault. you consider yourself an asset to your team. along comes some pooftah pinging 25 using a darth maul model. probably cauls himself Darth Death or something just as unimagniative (not to diss you hardcore starwars types but really there has GOT to be better nicks than something referencing han, luke, or darth for ****s sake). anyway, this darth death guy finds you with his saber and its instant death see you later. bah. respawn and find him again this time try and nail him with your rockets. oh wow, he's not where you thought he was ... probably becuase he's PINGING 30 and the pitiful splash damage those rockets have are useless. so you get frustrated and figure, i'll just pick a regular storm trooper and get endor on his ass. too bad he can block most everything and still dismember you.

grr. you figure "hey the only way to fight fire is with fire" so you respawn as a jedi and track him down ... and suddenly you're fighting a jedi in POWERPOINT since the ping difference forces you to excercise your nonexistant psychic abilities and you lose. badly.

ok, so that's a rather exagerrated scenario but you see the point? the lpb rail whores in q3 discouraged a LOT of people from playing the game. jedis with even marginal skill and a killer connection could insert a horrible imbalance to the game.
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Old 10-09-2004, 10:08 PM   #52
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I'm not sure about that, hatelull. I usually have an 80-100 ping, but I could easily nail people with those tiny Golan balls. They had a bit of splash radius, but I'm assuming the rockets have a bit bigger radius. Yes, a good ping is a good ally, but doesn't automatically make you skilled.


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Old 10-09-2004, 10:19 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by sircursealot
I'm not sure about that, hatelull. I usually have an 80-100 ping, but I could easily nail people with those tiny Golan balls. They had a bit of splash radius, but I'm assuming the rockets have a bit bigger radius. Yes, a good ping is a good ally, but doesn't automatically make you skilled.
for this i say ..

you're using a projectile distance weapon with splash damage at a ranged target. even with your ping, projectile prediction is cake. hpb's excel at this in q3, but will get taken down by smart lpb's with decent aim. however this is battlefront ....

close quaters the 100ping golan ball shooter guy will get killed before he has a chance against a sub50 saber wiedling jedi that has to get maybe 1-2 hits in to take someone down.

maybe i'm totally off and am not giving enough credit to the netcode but it seems that the jedi has a major advantage ...

barring all ping debates and advantages ... there's still the same tired arguement ..

if you give a server the option of Weapon X which is quite possibly superior to the other weapons the majority will choose Weapon X, right?
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Old 10-09-2004, 11:03 PM   #54
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There will be a FPS Tactical Shooter with no jedi(hopefully) called Republic Commando.

As I said before it is alright having jedi as A.I bots as they are completely dumb(I mean it). Once when I was right next to Luke as a stormtrooper he just stood there for the rest of the game.

So I will say it again play the Jedi Knight series to be a jedi for basically the whole game(not including Outcast).


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Old 10-09-2004, 11:11 PM   #55
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Good points, though one thing that BF has that Q3 and JK2 didn't have: vehicles.

So yeah, a Jedi with a low ping vs. your high ping might be a tough badass mofo, but get into your AT-TE (or whatever) and what's he going to do? Swipe at your legs, hoping to kill you in a series of hits, but in that time you can fire one burst of lasers and totally ruin his day.

Or hop into your Speeder and move faster than he ever could hope to. Run his a$$ over!

Or whatever. I mean the vehicles out there have insane splash damage (try taking out droids on Geonosis with the AT-TE or LAAT, whoa!) and/or they can run people over for a one hit kill. It's one thing to dodge a tiny laser blast. It's quite another to dodge a huge multi-ton vehicle or a block of turbolasers/rockets as big as your own body. And with the mana depleting block power I suggested, a Jedi won't be able to just stand there and stop everything, eventually you'll get through (and a smart person will just use the splash to his advantage).

That's how it was in JA/JK2 MP. Vehicles totally own Jedi, and use of splash damage can take them out too. Anyway...

The thing is the "dumb Jedi" are a bug really, just like the general dumb AI. Once they are patched up and (decently) smart, people will see what they are really capable of, and I think that controllable Jedi won't seem so impossible.

And yes, RC is coming and I'm looking forward to it, but keep in mind it won't be the same as BF. It's a tactical shooter that's squad based, rather than two armies fighting each other. Also the MP for that game (from the little we know) is pretty run-of-the-mill FPS (ie: FFA, Team FFA, CTF). No word yet on whether or not you have to fight any Jedi. In the movies the Jedi lead Clone Troopers into battle, but most of your missions are supposedly pretty covert, so it makes sense that there isn't a Jedi with you. Doubtful that they'll play much of a role if any though. In MP it's going to be Trandoshans vs. Clonetroopers. That's confirmed.

Granted, there is some squad based stuff in BF, but it's somewhat jumbled now (unless you're good working with your clanmates or whatever) do to the buggy/poor AI that doesn't always obey your orders or use decent tactics. I think the way they intended it was for the human players to act like generals or squad leaders leading groups of bots. Lot of times I play though, it's more the general chaos of war, since people don't stick together, for whatever reasons.


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Old 10-09-2004, 11:19 PM   #56
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Kinda wish thre were light sabers that couldnt deflect a person's laser/arrow and took the place of a secondary pistol. It could take 2 wacks/swings at a person to kill them but would run out of energy fast. Pluss could only be used at close range. It would be fun to have a sword fight with them on a lan game. Just make it where the A.I don't use them (that way they can't over use them)

I know it was kind of off topic but it sorta has to do with jedi.


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Old 10-09-2004, 11:23 PM   #57
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That would be cool, but don't push it. I don't think anybody wants the dueling thing. That's better left to dedicated Jedi games like the JK series.

A Jedi in this game would serve the same purpose as any other soldier and what the AI Jedi do now.

It does look a little silly when Mace Windu and Count Dooku totally ignore each other on the battlefield, but if we went with what we're talking about it would all be over in a flash. Both Jedi approach each other and the first one to swing in range gets the kill and walks away. That's how it should be IMHO, 'cause otherwise people will waste too much time saber fighting when there's work to be done!

Unless one Jedi gets the drop on the other, it wouldn't matter. So it would discourage dueling and encourage the Jedi to go and help their teammates out.

The Jedi could also be good for distracting the enemy while their buddies sneak past defenses. The Jedi could also be a good tool for assasinations. ; )


Then again, your idea almost sounds like giving every soldier a saber weapon like you'd have a commando knife in other games. Just a weapon for a quick hand to hand thing if you needed to. Kinda cool, though the purists will not take too kindly to that one (though in the early Star Wars script drafts the saber was a standard weapon of even Stormtroopers, for situations where blasters wouldn't be good). 'Sides, without Jedi reflexes, you're not going to be blocking blaster shots with the saber, sorry. Rifle butts & pistol might be more appropriate, but again, more for "fun" than useful.

The short range on the lightsaber would force the Jedi to be crafty....


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Old 10-09-2004, 11:37 PM   #58
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Unless every server adopts the playable Jedi using mods, you can always just visit another server or create your own. Otherwise you adopt the slippery slope fallacy... if Jedi become playable, the game will become Jedi only and be ruined.
This is what keeps me from putting bounties on those who cry for Jedis.

Quote:
Interesting that you would bring up SWG, because, while I don't play that game (and have no plans to) I've read that it's not easy to become a Jedi, and they are limited in what they can do.
HA! May not be fun, but it aint exactly hard. And they're quiet uber now, as in the 2% of shots that get through the deflection do 5 damage. Don't even say it wouldn't have to be that way in Battlefront. I know that, I was just saying.

Making Jedi playable (PLAYABLE, not just in the game, of course they're already in the game, and no one cares, DUH) is something they would do to satisfy the people who are saber hungry. Were they to add Jedi, they could theoretically make them work.
To do this, you would have to make them non-uber, at least in comparision to the rest of the units. You couldn't make Jedi undesirable enough. Plus, if the Jedi aren't great, and bad enough that not everyone would want to be one, then what's the point? Who are you satisfying by adding a class designed to not be wanted to play?

Finally, no system for limiting Jedi could actually work.
Make a limit to the number of Jedi allowed-- Who would get to be Jedi? First come first serve? Every n00b would want to be a Jedi, and either whine when they didn't get it, or get it and experienced players who actually know what the heck they're doing would be pissed. Don't even get me started on the lamers. People would come in, steal the Jedi slots, then jump up onto a ledge and go AFK for three hours or something like that.
So, you make some reward system--- based on what? Kills? Command point captures? Including bots or no? what if no ones on the server, then you can get on, capture a bunch of CPs become a Jedi and slaughter the first guy who steps in. No matter what the system, there would always be some thing to do to get Jedi. That's what happened in SWG with grinding. Everyone did whatever they could to get through the grinding and become a Jedi. When everyone was doing everything for all the wrong reasons, it devalued everything that those proffessions had to offer, just through repition and inflation. If you had to capture a certain number of CPs to be a Jedi, people would just run from CP to CP, capturing all they could and letting the other guys take it so they could take it back. The point of the game is to win by capturing CPs, and when you add any alterior objective to meet, it degrades from the game.

Quote:
But you're saying that EVEN THOUGH they could be balanced and would fit canon (in other words there's no logical reason why they couldn't be made playable in the game), you don't want them. So it's a purely subjective value-judgement based on your opinion.

Concession accepted then. Now it all depends on how many people want Jedi and the influence they have over those with the power to make it happen. ; )
Aha! Now your cause is lost! I'm glad you've accepted the basic, most important point of all of this. Now if only you'd accept it as truth that Jedi do not belong in this game. That's not simply my personal opinion. That's the opinion of many many others, and I believe it's the opinion of the creators of this game.


Jedi are not only not wanted in this game, but not needed. They wouldn't add anything. To make them fun, they'd dominate and ruin the game (I used your words intentionally, BTW). To make them balanced, they wouldn't be fun and would have no point. The game's class system and Jedi organization as it is now is great. I have no complaints, and nor do you, it would seem. It's just some people who think that Jedi should be in the game, but for no particular reason other than "It's star wars! I wanna be a Jedi! Wah wah wah!"


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Old 10-10-2004, 12:24 AM   #59
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Wink Re: JawaJoey (Force Long Quote!)

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Originally posted by JawaJoey
HA! May not be fun, but it aint exactly hard. And they're quiet uber now, as in the 2% of shots that get through the deflection do 5 damage. Don't even say it wouldn't have to be that way in Battlefront. I know that, I was just saying.
K. 'Cause no way in hell would controllable Jedi's be remotely fair if they had infinite mana, infinite auto blocking and infinite health like the AI Jedi do now. Sides, that would be no fun to control! ; )

Quote:
Making Jedi playable (PLAYABLE, not just in the game, of course they're already in the game, and no one cares, DUH) is something they would do to satisfy the people who are saber hungry.
Not necessarily. Are you saying that if Jedi are in the game they HAVE to be uber jedi like we'd expect to see in Jedi Outcast? No, with some modifications they can be useable, useful and fun. They need not be dueling Jedi, just Jedi used for combat, and in such a way as that they fit in with the rest of the troops.

Think about the regular infantry for a second. By FPS standards they are weak as hell. Note how in most FPS games you can carry a dozen weapons, and you can carry healing items, and wear armor, etc. These guys are limited to basically two weapons and a couple of grenades (if that). Their weapons have to be reloaded and run out of ammo, leaving them with a weak blaster that overheats. Plus they move somewhat slow (though they jump high I guess). These Jedi are also "dumbed down" from most FPS games that they are currently in, where they are basically superheroes or demigods (compared to these poor non-force saps).


Quote:
Were they to add Jedi, they could theoretically make them work.
To do this, you would have to make them non-uber, at least in comparision to the rest of the units. You couldn't make Jedi undesirable enough. Plus, if the Jedi aren't great, and bad enough that not everyone would want to be one, then what's the point? Who are you satisfying by adding a class designed to not be wanted to play?
I realize maybe my "Force Long Posts" take time to read but, trust me, I addressed this and I did think about it before I posted. The point of adding a class isn't so everyone wants to be it.

I guess in a sense you could say that in a normal FPS you can do everything. In this game they take all the things people like to do, and split them up, so that each class can only do some of them. That forces you to use teamwork and combined tactics to get the job done, that in a "normal" FPS you could have anyone do and do by themselves. Otherwise why have class based play at all?

Why not just have everyone be the same?

Do you think the gave the Jetpack trooper a jetpack to appease the Jetpack fanboys? Did they give the rocket launcher to the Heavy Trooper Vanguard to appease the Rocket Launcher fanboys? I mean c'mon...


Quote:
Finally, no system for limiting Jedi could actually work.
I disagree. Read over my suggestions.


Quote:
Make a limit to the number of Jedi allowed-- Who would get to be Jedi? First come first serve? Every n00b would want to be a Jedi, and either whine when they didn't get it, or get it and experienced players who actually know what the heck they're doing would be pissed.
If you have to earn it, as I suggested, only those who earn it would get it. The "whiners" can whine all they want but they won't get to be Jedi unless they get the skill needed. So either they rack up the awards, they rescue the captured Jedi or whatever. If it's random choice then it's based simply on luck, and again they have nothing to say about it.

So there won't be any "first come first serve" or "fight over it" to deal with. The only trick is choosing a system (or suggesting a new one) for allocating Jedi.

I was thinking though that if the Jedi were balanced enough you might allow anyone to have the class if it's allowed on the map by the server, but that I am unsure about.

Quote:
Don't even get me started on the lamers. People would come in, steal the Jedi slots, then jump up onto a ledge and go AFK for three hours or something like that.
An excellent point, though matches don't last that long.

Without an admin function that is a definate concern, but we're assuming (hoping) that this will be added anyway.

If Jedi are time limited, then this wouldn't be a problem, but otherwise you do have a point.

Quote:
So, you make some reward system--- based on what? Kills? Command point captures? Including bots or no?
That's up to the person doing the designing. Whatever they feel is a fair way to "win" a Jedi slot. I was thinking like most enemy kills, Tank Buster, that sort of thing. It's an open question how that would be done. But the point is it wouldn't be just owning a bunch of bots (although that's still better than just anyone being a Jedi or first come first serve), but something you had to work for. I wish there was an "assists" for the team award or something, that would be nice. Like somebody who was an MVP for their team would get to be the Jedi next round.

Quote:
what if no ones on the server, then you can get on, capture a bunch of CPs become a Jedi and slaughter the first guy who steps in.
You could make it so a Jedi can only be earned if X number of humans are on the server. But then again what you argue is the same problem with ANY game where a person joins first. Example: I can join first and get into a tank. You join and I blow you away with my tank at your spawn point. Or in another FPS game, I gather weapons until I'm armed to the teeth and you just have your starting weapons. Boom! Blown away at your spawn point. Muahahhaa!

If you tie the presence of Jedi to human players, then you elimate this problem. Though to make it possible to "train as a Jedi" it would be permissable to make the "Instant Action" (offline) version of this "mod" not require human kills (say in the offline version you can kill bots to earn the award or something).

Quote:
No matter what the system, there would always be some thing to do to get Jedi. That's what happened in SWG with grinding.
True, unless the Jedi assignment was completely random. And if the task to do required humans to be there or teamwork, then what would be so bad about that?

Quote:
Everyone did whatever they could to get through the grinding and become a Jedi. When everyone was doing everything for all the wrong reasons, it devalued everything that those proffessions had to offer, just through repition and inflation. If you had to capture a certain number of CPs to be a Jedi, people would just run from CP to CP, capturing all they could and letting the other guys take it so they could take it back. The point of the game is to win by capturing CPs, and when you add any alterior objective to meet, it degrades from the game.
Perhaps it could be a combination of things, like Destroy a tank, hold a control point for certain amount of time and kill a certain number of enemies. It would be complex enough and helpful enough to your team that it wouldn't be just some pointless diversion that a person could do and then screw their team over by not doing anything else ever.


Quote:
Aha! Now your cause is lost! I'm glad you've accepted the basic, most important point of all of this. Now if only you'd accept it as truth that Jedi do not belong in this game. That's not simply my personal opinion. That's the opinion of many many others, and I believe it's the opinion of the creators of this game.
I don't think so. Because if it were, they would not have included Jedi in the first place. But they did, so the notion that they "don't belong" is merely an opinion shared by you and so many others. And not shared by the so many others who want 'em playable as an option.

Boo-yah! Okay, anyway...


Quote:
Jedi are not only not wanted in this game, but not needed.

Not wanted? Not needed! My, you've cut me to the quick with that argument... okay, I'm kidding now, my apologies.


Quote:
They wouldn't add anything.

Oh yes they would. Strategy. Fun. More of that Star Wars atmosphere that this game is so good at. And a nice refresher from that pathetic AI.

Quote:
To make them fun, they'd dominate and ruin the game (I used your words intentionally, BTW).
No, limited Jedi would be fun as well.

What, are those limited and dumbed down infantry men fun to use? Are those dumbed down vehicles fun to use? I'm not kidding, they feel dumbed down to me compared to other FPS games.

But (despite a few minor quibbles about camera angles for example) they are fun to use. Why? Because it's not just one thing or the other it's the COMBINATION that makes them fun. If this were just a game about some stormtroopers and their blaster rifles I'd be quite bored. But no, they are just one little piece in the puzzle. The parts make the whole. So the Jedi isn't a seperate puzzle by himself, no he's just another piece that completements and completes the picture.

Quote:
To make them balanced, they wouldn't be fun and would have no point.
So in your mind they either have to be uber and dominate the game (fun) or they have to not be in the game at all? Hmm. I don't think so. I just explained how they could be useful and fun, a compromise between the Jedi haters and fanboys if you will. I don't think it would be bad.

Quote:
The game's class system and Jedi organization as it is now is great.
Right now the Jedi are worthless. They're only good for killing bots, really.

Quote:
I have no complaints, and nor do you, it would seem.
Well I have complaints about the AI. The Jedi thing I got involved in because I thought the arguments being made AGAINST Jedi were very problematic, and I wanted to give the "we want Jedi" people a reality check of how the Jedi would need to be in this game to be useful (to dispel any pipe dreams of having Jedi Academy masters running around killing everything in sight).

Quote:
It's just some people who think that Jedi should be in the game, but for no particular reason other than "It's star wars! I wanna be a Jedi! Wah wah wah!"
And their opposition is going "It's a gun game! I don't want 'em to be Jedi! Wah wah wah!" Right? Oh, that's right... ; )

I tried to explain some feasible ways that Jedi could be used in the game without them being dominating and leading to whines about "fanboys" and if you still don't agree and your bottom line is "Jedi are bad, I don't want them" well, agree to disagree then... heh.

G'night.


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Old 10-10-2004, 02:23 AM   #60
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yes, jedi could be implemented into the game. yes, they could power them down so that they would be playable. yes, their inclusion might add more strategies but the bottom line here is that we don't want jedi. no matter what you say or do, we don't want them. even if they were powered down so far that they were the equivalent to mice and no one would choose them, we still, wouldn't want them. this game is not about jedi, it is about grunts fighting on the front lines. so why don't you jedi 'fanboys' go play one of the other 50,000 star wars games that are based on jedi. the entire point of battlefront is being a soldier, it even says so on the back of the box.

'Fight as a soldier on the front lines where every weapon and vechile you see is yours'

also Mace Windu says, 'We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers...'

thus proving my point, jedi should not be in the game.


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Old 10-10-2004, 04:01 AM   #61
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There is another thing that makes them overpowered- They heal to full health when they are hit. I have blasted them time and time again with an AAT main cannon and the blasters and others and they didnt die. Everytime they got up they healed.


And nobody actually kills jedi I have found. They die by themselves so it seems there health goes down realy slowly as they fight. Once on Dune Sea I was a droid and I saw Mace Windu. He ran at me I didnt do a thing and he just died with out even getting shot. This was around when the clones tickets were at 15.


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Old 10-10-2004, 09:16 AM   #62
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If only people cared this much about stuff that actually mattered.



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Old 10-10-2004, 09:32 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Do you think the gave the Jetpack trooper a jetpack to appease the Jetpack fanboys? Did they give the rocket launcher to the Heavy Trooper Vanguard to appease the Rocket Launcher fanboys? I mean c'mon...
*Episode III Spoiler*

spoiler:
Well, in Episode III, there is supposedly going to be a Clone Trooper with a jetpack from what I've heard.


They made missile launchers because they are very much needed for taking down vehicles. How are you going to destroy an AT-ST on Endor without a missile launcher? Throw concussion grenades? Well, enjoy getting your soldiers blown to bits.

There were missile launchers in the Battlefield games if my memory serves me correctly.

I'm all for improving the AI Jedi. Make them block realistically (can't block every shot from any direction), some Force jump, Force push, no insta-heal, and simply more intelligent. But that's it with Jedi. No more.
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Old 10-10-2004, 09:41 AM   #64
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Wink Re: Schetter

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Originally posted by Schetter
If only people cared this much about stuff that actually mattered.
You haven't been to the Senate Forums have you?

Sometimes we like to argue about stuff that isn't quite so earth-shatteringly depressing and/or stressful. ; )


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Old 10-10-2004, 09:46 AM   #65
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Arrow Re: TK-8252

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Originally posted by TK-8252
They made missile launchers because they are very much needed for taking down vehicles. How are you going to destroy an AT-ST on Endor without a missile launcher? Throw concussion grenades? Well, enjoy getting your soldiers blown to bits.
I can't very well argue something that's in Episode III since the movie isn't out yet and I haven't seen it. But whatever...

As to taking down AT-ST's, sure. There's other ways to take 'em down of course, artillery, ships, your own walkers. They were kind of hampered on Endor, they didn't even have rocket launchers. All they had were blasters and some explosive charges. The whole job was sending in a small force to sabotage the shield generator. They ended up destroying walkers with Logs and a Wookie driving a stolen AT-ST. ; )

As far as building weapons specifically to fight Jedi, there just isn't really a pressing need for it. With 10,000 Jedi spread out across a galactic conflict you're going to be facing maybe 0-1 Jedi in each battle. There are probably many battles where no Jedi are there, period. And finally when the Empire takes over, the Jedi are "all but extinct" so no reason to build anything specifically to fight them.

Sure, perhaps during the Jedi purge, but that's it. For all we know they die in either orbital/ship bombardments or saber duels.

Note: I'm staying away from Episode III spoilers, so I just have to say I'll wait for the movie (7 months to go) where that is concerned...

Quote:
There were missile launchers in the Battlefield games if my memory serves me correctly.
Don't see how that's relevant. Are you saying that a lightsaber is so unprecedented it doesn't fit? Nonesense. If that's true, the other sci fi weapons don't fit either. This is the first Star Wars "battlefield" type game. I wouldn't expect them to be using slug throwers and earth-based weapons of the past.

Quote:
I'm all for improving the AI Jedi. Make them block realistically (can't block every shot from any direction), some Force jump, Force push, no insta-heal, and simply more intelligent. But that's it with Jedi. No more. [/B]
I'm also for improving AI Jedi (I agree with you), though making them smarter (and perhaps not immortal... make 'em heal fast sure, but make it possible to kill them through sheer firepower after awhile), and I feel I've done enough to show that making playable Jedi could be accomplished, and avoid the nightmare scenarios proposed by some of you.


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Old 10-10-2004, 09:57 AM   #66
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Arrow Re: Evil Dark Jedi

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Originally posted by Evil Dark Jedi
There is another thing that makes them overpowered- They heal to full health when they are hit. I have blasted them time and time again with an AAT main cannon and the blasters and others and they didnt die. Everytime they got up they healed.
Actually this is an illusion. Next time you're shooting a Jedi with your AT-TE or whatever, watch his health bar. It never, and I mean NEVER goes down, ever. The heal thing is just an animation (a blue set of horizontal bands that glow on him after he's knocked down every so often or hit by something). It's meant to give you the impression that he's healing himself, but in reality he never took damage to begin with. He's immortal, like Boba Fett!

A controllable Jedi would not be immortal. That would be silly. Rather he'd have limited mana to heal himself. If you want to make the heal restore him to full, fine, but then he'll be out of mana. Or make it only heal him a little bit (like a health pack). Whatever. But I never said that controllable Jedi should be immortal like the AI Jedi and only be killed by falling off cliffs or being run over by speeders. No, that truly WOULD be "overpowered."


Quote:
And nobody actually kills jedi I have found. They die by themselves so it seems there health goes down realy slowly as they fight. Once on Dune Sea I was a droid and I saw Mace Windu. He ran at me I didnt do a thing and he just died with out even getting shot. This was around when the clones tickets were at 15.
I've watched their health, it never goes down. The AI bots don't know how to kill Jedi (blasting them off cliffs or running them over with speeders) so they just keep shooting and shooting until they either die or the Jedi leaves them alone.

If the tickets were dropping, then that could account for why he just fell over and died. I had the same thing happened to Mace Windu (I was on the Clones side) when my reinforcements were dropping. At a certain point I think the computer just decides "you are too weak to have a Jedi anymore, click" and then the Jedi just keels over and he's out for the rest of the map.


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Old 10-10-2004, 10:18 AM   #67
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Post Re: BigBlueBoo

Quote:
Originally posted by BigBlueBoo yes, jedi could be implemented into the game. yes, they could power them down so that they would be playable. yes, their inclusion might add more strategies but the bottom line here is that we don't want jedi. no matter what you say or do, we don't want them.
But why? Pure opinion. Like if I said "I don't want Ewoks in this game, period. No matter what you say, no matter what you do, they don't belong."

If I created and released a mod that allowed playable Jedi, sure, that wouldn't necessarily make you suddenly say "I Love Jedi, I want them!" but that doesn't even matter.

It only need matter to whoever tries to create it (be it Pandemic or some mod creator(s)).

In this discussion we've gotten down to the point that you guys won't reasonably accept any solution. You've given plenty of excuses, but ultimately it comes down to you just don't want there to be playable Jedi in the game. That's fine. But at least we've cut through the BS that it is "impossible" or "goes against Starwars" somehow.

Quote:
even if they were powered down so far that they were the equivalent to mice and no one would choose them, we still, wouldn't want them.
So I guess you don't want them now, do you? Because they are about the equivalent to mice in the game right now. ; )

Lucky for you...

Quote:
this game is not about jedi, it is about grunts fighting on the front lines.
Wait, now that we've already established the reason why you don't want them (because you don't want them, subjective), you jump back into the "they don't belong!" argument. Says who? Canonically they do belong, balance wise they can belong. Fact-wise they are already in the game, etc.

The fact is that Jedi are soldiers, and thus, they fit in with the "grunts on the front lines."

Nobody said that putting in "weak Jedi" as playable characters would make this game "about Jedi" except you guys. The burden of proof is on you to show that adding Jedi would turn this game into a game about Jedi rather than "grunts on the front lines."

Quote:
so why don't you jedi 'fanboys' go play one of the other 50,000 star wars games that are based on jedi.
Let's take a look at the Star Wars games that are about Jedi:

Jedi Knight Dark Forces II, Jedi Knight Mysteries of the Sith (for the sake of argument we'll count the Expansion Pack as a "game"), Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy, KOTOR, KOTOR 2 (when it comes out).

Hmm... Episode III game when it comes out.

Obi-Wan for the Xbox.

That's 8 games. Can you think of any more?

Masters of Teras Kesa I don't think counts, because over half the characters were non-Jedi and the Jedi had no special advantages.

SWG is mostly non-Jedi even if Jedi were added to the game later. Out of the tens or hundreds of thousands of players how many are actually Jedi. A few hundred?

Quote:
the entire point of battlefront is being a soldier, it even says so on the back of the box.
And Jedi are soldiers, so I guess that means Jedi should be playable in the game. ; )

Play any Star Wars battle anyway you want!

Well what if I want to re-create the fact that Jedi fought on the front lines of the Clone War? Or that Jedi were involved in basically all the important battles of the Galactic Civil War? They're already there, just instead of being AI they'd be people. I don't see what's so horrible about that.

But this is distracting from the issue. I've already addressed this. The reason you don't want Jedi is because you don't want Jedi, and you'll never change that opinion (you've said so yourself). So why make excuses for it?

Quote:
'Fight as a soldier on the front lines where every weapon and vechile you see is yours'
Jedi = Soldiers

I rest my case.

I see a Jedi, I guess he's not mine. He's only an AI I have no control over. Doh!

Aren't soldiers who don't follow orders in wartime shot?
Traitors! ; )

Quote:
also Mace Windu says, 'We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers...'
You're taking his quote out of context and repeating it like a mantra. It proves nothing, except that the popular sentiment in the Jedi ranks before the Clone Wars was not to take an active part in mass hostilities.

That was before he was drafted (or enlisted) into the Grand Army of the Republic and starting bleeding for his King and Country. Qui Gon Jinn said something similar ("we can only protect you, we can't fight a war for you").

Things change. Watch AOTC again.

Jedi = Soldiers

Quote:
thus proving my point, jedi should not be in the game.
Doesn't prove a thing, in fact the canon refutes your claim that Jedi can't or haven't been soldiers. In fact they have been. The canon TPM novelisation describes the war between the Sith and the Jedi which lasted a thousand years. And if you look into the EU, that is true as well, the Jedi are heavily involved in the military and do tons of fighting on the ground, in the air, in the sea, in space, etc. The Clone Wars Cartoon literally pounds it into the viewers head.

But even if you only accept the movies, we have it in black & white (actually color) that the Jedi are not just desk-jockey's, or pilots, or advisors, but front-line ground troops. If that's not soldiering, I don't know what is. ; )


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Old 10-10-2004, 10:50 AM   #68
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*joins the battle with a wooden shield and a rusty spoon*

*pokes at kurgan*

When seeing the movies, you make a difference between the "normal losers" (just soldiers) and the heroes (ALL the jedi cause they got cool powers, and some uber ones like jango). Pandemic just took a knife and split em in two and said, "hey, be the normal soldier. Just a number".

The deal is, ppl see, and will always see, jedi as "special". They can use the force. Balacing them would look stupid. Maybe JA doesnt have this, but this more of a battlefield. Equalling a jedi with just a soldier that picked up a gun, thats why almost no one likes the idea.

Jedis use lame tactics. They push you and render you immobilized which no1 likes. Thats another point.


We're just a number in this game. Not someone special.

the normal armies in star wars specialize in quantity, not quality.



As for star wars galaxies, i played it for 20 hours and havent met a single jedi. Thank god.


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Old 10-10-2004, 11:05 AM   #69
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Re: Re: BigBlueBoo

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
And Jedi are soldiers, so I guess that means Jedi should be playable in the game. ; )

Play any Star Wars battle anyway you want!

Well what if I want to re-create the fact that Jedi fought on the front lines of the Clone War? Or that Jedi were involved in basically all the important battles of the Galactic Civil War? They're already there, just instead of being AI they'd be people. I don't see what's so horrible about that.

But this is distracting from the issue. I've already addressed this. The reason you don't want Jedi is because you don't want Jedi, and you'll never change that opinion (you've said so yourself). So why make excuses for it?



Jedi = Soldiers

I rest my case.

I see a Jedi, I guess he's not mine. He's only an AI I have no control over. Doh!

Aren't soldiers who don't follow orders in wartime shot?
Traitors! ; )



You're taking his quote out of context and repeating it like a mantra. It proves nothing, except that the popular sentiment in the Jedi ranks before the Clone Wars was not to take an active part in mass hostilities.

That was before he was drafted (or enlisted) into the Grand Army of the Republic and starting bleeding for his King and Country. Qui Gon Jinn said something similar ("we can only protect you, we can't fight a war for you").

Things change. Watch AOTC again.

Jedi = Soldiers



Doesn't prove a thing, in fact the canon refutes your claim that Jedi can't or haven't been soldiers. In fact they have been. The canon TPM novelisation describes the war between the Sith and the Jedi which lasted a thousand years. And if you look into the EU, that is true as well, the Jedi are heavily involved in the military and do tons of fighting on the ground, in the air, in the sea, in space, etc. The Clone Wars Cartoon literally pounds it into the viewers head.

But even if you only accept the movies, we have it in black & white (actually color) that the Jedi are not just desk-jockey's, or pilots, or advisors, but front-line ground troops. If that's not soldiering, I don't know what is. ; )
ok, number 1, jedi are not soldiers, yes they fight for the republic but only because they have to. read any books about them, they avoid killing people or causing harm, sounds like a real soldier to me.

so what jedi would be on each team.

Republic: about 10,000 jedi
CIS: Count Dooku, erm... thats it
Empire: Darth Vader, Emperor which is highly doubtful
Rebels: Luke Skywalker

kind of out numbered

and yes, you're right i dont want jedi, you start a poll, jedi or no jedi and see what wins. see how many people would rather that jedi were in this game.

and finally, if you're gonna make a mod with playable jedi, fine. i dont care, ill be with the majority not downloading it. just stop telling me how it would work or why they should be in the game.

phew


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Old 10-10-2004, 01:57 PM   #70
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Jedi or no Jedi

after spending some time reading this post Why's Everyone Against Jedi?
im curious about the % of ppl like /dislike Jedi

(i dont want to have them in game, not even the AI)

oh and as some1 has changed the title slightly
No Flames please
and if u want to talk about the issue
please go to Why's Everyone Against Jedi?


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Old 10-10-2004, 02:02 PM   #71
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First of all, Kurgan, you've done an excellent job of devising a plan that could theoretically work. Also, I appreciate your optimisim that it actually would work, despite my more pessimistic view.

And assuming that your plans for making it work would work perfectly, just looks at all you've had to come up with to satisfy the requirments. All that just to add another class to the game. A class that isn't needed and many many people don't even want. That is a TON of work. It's a whole lot of scripting that would have to completely fabricated, as no such rules exist in the game engine. It would require vast amounts of time and work, and all just to add a not-that-special, no-one-wants-it class. Not worth it.


And if you made Jedi fun and balanced, and treated them like any other class, just it would be a bitch to get, then Jedi are hardly special. And it's the special-ness of Jedi that people want.


Aside from that, it's good to see that you understand what this basically comes down to, a difference of opinion.
It's a shame you just don't seem to get it.
This game isn't about Jedi.
This game is great without them.
It's supposed to be without them.
You're one grunt on a normal battlefield.
You're not a hero.
Your buddy's not a hero.
If your lucky you catch a glimpse of Luke Skywayler running bye and you get all excited because you were within relative proximity to someone who IS a hero.
Jedis are heroes to the common soldiers.
They're special, their above, their divine, at least from the viewpoint of your average Joe.
They're rare.
They aren't a standard part of a fighting force or any battle.
This game is about the ground battles of Star Wars. This isn't Han Luke and Chewie inflitrating the detention area on the Death Star to save the princess, this is a bunch of normal guys shooting a bunch of other guys to get control of this place.
Jedi adds another dimension to this game, but it adds a dimension that contradicts the basis for the rest of the game.


God is a placebo with nasty side effects.
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Old 10-10-2004, 02:44 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Actually this wasn't the argument, the argument was that Jedi are too powerful or don't fit into the movies.
They fit in the movies fine. Just not in this game in the way you want them to.
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Concession accepted then. Now it all depends on how many people want Jedi and the influence they have over those with the power to make it happen. ; )
I don't know lets take a poll
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan

(1) I see it as this: Imagine the game exactly as it is now, with only one Jedi per team if the server allows it, except now that Jedi is not "invincible" and can be controlled by a human. Even without the limitations I suggested, that's still really no big deal.

(2) But it depends on how Jedi are implemented. If they are a special bonus that is only awarded for doing certain things, it might be impossible to get Jedi unless you played a normal game then kicked everybody out. And you could prevent that from happening by making it so if your team is gone, you stop being a Jedi (minimum player number on a team for a Jedi to be usable).

(3) If you are limited to only one Jedi per team, this problem disappears. Did anyone actually read what I wrote?
So you want to make it so only 1 person can play a Jedi per game of up to 50 people. Then you get into "you can't make Jedi a special reward class unless they are in fact special beyond that of being a simple soldier." Then only again 1 person can be one? That doesn't sound very fare to the rest of the players.

I could stand to think that the idea of making them playable came up and they thought of some of the ideas you stated. Maybe this is why the Jedi are like they are in the game now and not selectable you think?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
I've never seen that, but then I haven't played MP all that much. In Siege it was never my experience that everyone used the same class (well, I admit, the default Assault class was used a lot, mainly because he could accomplish every objective, and was the easiest to learn, even if other classes were better at certain objects and weak on others).
I alwasy saw alot more Jedi then anything. Alot of times I played one myself why? Because they could acomplish every objective. I have gone through a many of game as a Jedi and made all the objectives myself.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
I'm using my experiences as an online game, and common sense based on the fact that developers can implement solutions to balance problems (or percieved problems) if they set their minds to it. I'm also using the logic of the Star Wars films, that some are trying to use as a reason why Jedi shouldn't be controllable in this game, which I have pointed out (using examples from the films) as invalid. The Star Wars mythos itself refutes their claims. So in the end we just have a person animus in seeing people control Jedi in a game.
So you want to use the logic of the Star Wars films? Great....

There was only ever 2 Jedi in any of the battles in the original trilogy. Darth Vader wouldn't fight along side infantry and Luke wasn't even close to being a Jedi tell the end. Where in any of the battles of the original trilogy did you see either one of them running around with ground forces hacking enemies up with their lightsaber?

(EP4) There was only one real Battle and that was in space no Jedi lightsabers there.

(EP5) Battle of Hoth. What all did Luke do with his lightsaber? Hack the bottom of a AT-AT and throw a bomb in it. He never engaged troops and if he had most likely would have used his blaster. He wasn't a Jedi. (I get this from when Boba Fett shot at him in the halls of Besbin what did Luke pull out a Lightsaber...? Nope he pulled out his blaster.) Not tell he faced Vader alone did he use a Lightsaber and that is after a small amount of training by Yoda.

(EP6) Battle of Endor Where was Luke and Vader? Ahh yep they were on the Death Star fighting alone and the grunts were on the ground no Jedi around. I guess you could count the escape from Jabba, but that wasn't part of the war and that fight isn't an option in the game. There was also only one Jedi.

Now we get to the new trilogy.

(EP1) None of the battles in EP1 are in the game in MP, but in SP and there are only 3 Jedi present on the planet. They are not in the game. Obi-wan, Qui-Gon, and Maul. These Jedi are more worried with fighting each other then anyone else.

(EP2) The only movie so far that has depicted mass Jedi in combat and they are all on the same side except 1 Count Dooku. If you think your going to see him running around with Droid Troops hacking up Cloners I think you might be wrong. (Not to forget he is a powerful Jedi, but you want to add him in game as a relative grunt with a glowstick?) (This is done with the AI bots, but how real is that to what actually happened or would happen?)

There was a pretty good Number of Jedi in the battle on Geonosis and from what I could tell they were exceptional. They vastly out powered the Droids in abilities, skills, and there were a lot more of them then 1.

(EP3) Yet to be determined, but let me guess the number of Jedi between both sides is the same as EP2. So unless you want to put Jedi in the clone campaigns only, make them selectable for the Republic only, and more then 1 your are not being logical to the Star Wars movies.

This game isn't based on the heroes or Jedi it's based on the grunts that fought in the battles. That is how the developers wanted this game and that is how it is and why Jedi have the part that they do. So looking at the logic of the Star Wars films the game is pretty dead on if not for the bots.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan

(1) But you're saying that EVEN THOUGH they could be balanced and would fit canon (in other words there's no logical reason why they couldn't be made playable in the game), you don't want them. So it's a purely subjective value-judgement based on your opinion.

(2) It isn't a bad thing no, it's just a personal taste.

(3) Your reasoning now is purely a matter of taste, and that's not something I can argue, because I'm not you, and your preferences are you own.
You want them in game this a matter of taste and a purely subjective value-judgment based on your opinion.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
I'm glad we had this discussion, it's really opened my eyes to your line of reasoning. I don't agree with it, but at least I understand it now.
Your little statement here has done the same for me, but I won't loss any sleep over it. Moderator or not don't be a hypocrite.


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Old 10-10-2004, 02:46 PM   #73
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Jedi would be nice, but I really don't mind that there aren't any...


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Old 10-10-2004, 03:21 PM   #74
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Crap you beat me to it.

Quote:
Originally posted by zeppelin_tom
(i dont want to have them in game, not even the AI)
I second that.


-QUOTE------
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Old 10-10-2004, 05:27 PM   #75
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Sadly, while I disagree with the whole "Nooo, Jedis are for st00pid fanboyz only!!!111" argument (see the debate thread mentioned above), I do think that the Jedi (like the rest of the AI in this game out of box and with the first two patches) is pretty lack-luster.

Until the AI gets some serious tweaks and improvements I can sympathize with those who choose not to use it.

However, the Jedi fit perfectly in with the rest of the battle (watch the movies, especially AOTC, Jedi Soldiers are canon, see above thread), they just don't enhance it like they're supposed to. Like the rest of the bad AI, when you see them being stupid, it takes you out of the illusion.

So hopefully future patches will fix this problem...


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Old 10-10-2004, 06:36 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Sadly, while I disagree with the whole "Nooo, Jedis are for st00pid fanboyz only!!!111" argument (see the debate thread mentioned above), I do think that the Jedi (like the rest of the AI in this game out of box and with the first two patches) is pretty lack-luster.

Until the AI gets some serious tweaks and improvements I can sympathize with those who choose not to use it.
The POLL has nothing to do with the AI Jedi. It has to do with making the Jedi playable in game.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
However, the Jedi fit perfectly in with the rest of the battle (watch the movies,
I have several times and they don't. I already gave very good examples on why they don't in the before mentioned thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
especially AOTC, Jedi Soldiers are canon, see above thread),
Yep I can't argue with Jedi fighting in AOTC, but guess what. They were only on one side. Do you want to invent a Sith army to fight with the Droids? Wrong time frame for that. This isn't Star Wars Battlefronts of the Old Republic.


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Old 10-10-2004, 08:58 PM   #77
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Thumbs up At the risk of repeating myself... *sigh*

You're right about the poll. I didn't see the distinction at first, but my comments still stand.

Well, you do get to play as the Old Republic in this game. Last time I checked Count Dooku was on the side of the Seperatists (even if we only saw him riding around on a speeder bike and fighting some Jedi off the main battlefield).

Both Dooku and Vader had high-ranking military positions in their respective factions in the canon materials (while Luke was only a Commander in the Rebel Alliance), so again, it's not out of place.

Look I don't know where people get the idea that by not saying "OMG JEDI ARE BAD!!" that I must be saying "I want armies of Sith and Jedi to Clash in this game and turn it into Jedi Academy!"

That is not my position and never was.

The reason I trotted out examples from canon Star Wars is because the "no Jedi" people are trying to argue that somehow, Jedi being soldiers is anathema to Star Wars. It reminds me of the equally fallacious argument in the JK2/JA community that "honorable" Lightsaber duels are supported by the movies.

Suffice to say, we have a debate going in the other thread where you can read what I really think about the issue. I spell out there why arguing that "it's not Star Wars!" isn't a valid excuse. Time and again I've refuted each of the excuses, but the bottom line for the "no Jedi" people is that they simply don't want Jedi in the game, period. One can't refute opinons, since it's based on personal taste. ; )

Sorry to get off track, but I just wanted to clear that up.
That's all I really have to say on the matter here, check the other thread if you want to discuss the how and why of Jedi with me...!

--->http://lucasforums.com/showthread.ph...hreadid=137904


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Old 10-10-2004, 09:31 PM   #78
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Jedi Soldiers, how much more evidence do you need?

I'm not trying to be a hypocrite about anything (not quite sure what you're referring to there). I wasn't being sarcastic in my response, I really do feel like I understand the mentality against Jedi now (well and the fact that a person can just have a like or dislike, not based on anything rational.. I mean I like chocolate better than vanilla, but that's not rational, it's emotional).

Anyway, as to the idea of Jedi being soldiers, let's face facts.

Actions speak louder than words. I don't care if Yoda said "wars make not one great, mmmmm ehehe" he fought in a war! His opinion could have changed over time. We are talking decades later here. It'd be like if Norman Schwarzkopf (the famous general of the first Gulf War) when he was on his deathbed said something like "Peace is the only way to go, don't do war no more, boys!"

Opinions can change over time.

Mace Windu says "We're keepers of the Peace, not Soldiers." Ie: they're police, not military (well, more on that below...). We see Jedi doing diplomacy. Anakin admits they have "aggressive negotiations" (negotiations at the end of a lightsaber). Note how Qui Gon says to Padme "we can only protect you, we can't fight a war for you." Yet all these Jedi are truly aggressive in combat. They're fierce fighters, even if they have some idealistic code they follow. They use violence when they deam it necessary to protect the innocent, defend themselves or complete a mission.

Now as to Mace Windu's statement, this isn't an endorsement of pacifism. Keepers of the peace... sounds familiar doesn't it? Right now on the world stage we have "Peacekeeping forces" (we, meaning the US & our allies) in various countries in the middle east.

Guess who these Peace Keeping Forces are? They aren't Buddhist Monks or Calcutta Nuns. Rather they're... (drumroll) SOLDIERS! Guys with uniforms and guns!

UN Peacekeeping forces are the same. To keep the peace, well, you need weapons, in case somebody tries to "break" the peace with force. Force vs. Force.

Anyway, in the movies we see Jedi, Lightsabers drawn, running forward towards the advancing CIS armies composed of Droids and combat vehicles. The Jedi lead squads of armed Clonetroopers. We see Mace Windu himself dashing forward and blocking blaster shots left and right, providing cover for his squad as they get ready to attack.

For someone who can't possibly be a soldier, he sure is acting the part! Yoda, anti-war in his later years (though he trains Luke to become a warrior to fight Vader, go figure) is the one who brings the Clones and their equipment to the battlefield. Sure, you can say he came there to rescue Obi-Wan and Mace Windu's detachment of Jedi from the Arena (Windu of course came there to rescue Obi-Wan and capture or kill Dooku at the same time). BUT, there was a battle already raging outside between Republic and Seperatist forces. The Jedi took an active role in the battle, leading groups of Clonetroopers into the fray. Yoda acted as a field commander and did the cliched field commander line at the end. ; )

The Jedi have their warrior code, but ultimately they are subject to the authority of the Supreme Chanceller (note the opening of TPM) and thus if Palpatine orders them to fight, they fight.

Watch the Clone Wars animated series for even more explicit examples of Jedi soldiering. Yoda even rides some animal into battle in the opening of the very first episode! Obi-Wan wears an ARC Trooper uniform, and Mace Windu kicks butt!

As to the Empire, Palpatine isn't a Jedi, but Vader is (or was, he's a Sith Knight now), and he's in charge of Death Squadron. His ship is the Executor, the COMMAND SHIP. He orders Admirals around, and has them executed on occasion when he isn't feeling too forgiving. Count Dooku is the leader of the Seperatist Forces in AOTC. Luke is a pilot and Commander in Empire Strikes back. While he doesn't show himself to be a soldier (he fights, he pilots, but he's not shown as part of the army, I grant you that), he does carry on the military tradition of Jedi in uniform.

Then we have GENERAL Kenobi, who fought in the Clone Wars, mentioned right in ANH. He tells Luke how Anakin was also a great pilot who fought in the wars (we'll have to watch Episode III to see exactly how this plays out of course).

If there were Jedi "Conscientious Objectors" in the Clone Wars, we have yet to see evidence of them.

Anyway...

If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, quacks like a duck, can we call it a duck?

PS: Is your problem with the Jedi that they are "famous" Jedi? I don't think so, you've already stated that it's the idea of Jedi on the battlefield at all that bugs you. The canon arguments are red herrings, aren't they?

In real life you don't normally see the Field Commander running forward and doing the fighting, and in Count Dooku's case he doesn't do that. Neither does Vader. Mace Windu does (but Yoda doesn't). Of course, Jedi are a lot different than some 50 year old human General in our world, who carries a pistol but isn't going to be doing the same stuff as the average 19 year old grunt. Jedi are one-man armies. Dooku could hold his own if he needed to (and he did, we just didn't see him slicing up any Clonetroopers).

Vader didn't fight alongside infantry on the ground, no. He sought out Obi-Wan and killed him in single combat (that whole Samurai/Knight mythos). But he did board his TIE Fighter and take two Imperial Pilots with him to go shoot down the Rebel Forces attacking the Death Star. So Vader wasn't above putting himself into the thick of the battle.

I meant to say "I can't argue" not can. My world will not fall apart if Jedi are not made playable, I just don't see a compelling argument why they should NOT be added, other than "well, I just don't like them."


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Last edited by Kurgan; 10-10-2004 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 10-10-2004, 10:33 PM   #79
TK-8252
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According to the poll, it doesn't look like many people are interested in being a Jedi "soldier." Sorry Kurgan.
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Old 10-10-2004, 11:27 PM   #80
Evil Dark Jedi
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK-8252
According to the poll, it doesn't look like many people are interested in being a Jedi "soldier." Sorry Kurgan.
Yep that is true.


Sig encountering technical difficulties...
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