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View Poll Results: Do you think it would be cool to have playable Jedi?
YES ! I want to be a Jedi wah wah wah 40 28.78%
NO ! This game is for the grunts only 79 56.83%
I really don't care 20 14.39%
Voters: 139. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: 'Playable Jedi' Debate (merged, no flaming)
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Old 10-18-2004, 06:37 PM   #121
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There hasn't been hundreds of Star Wars games neither.


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Old 10-18-2004, 06:47 PM   #122
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True. But the notion that "every game" is about Jedi is an exaggeration.


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Old 10-18-2004, 07:04 PM   #123
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Yeah that's a fact. I'm ready to bet that less then 50% of the Star Wars game actually involves you as a Jedi(if you don't consider Luke in the OT as a Jedi of course).


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Old 10-18-2004, 07:19 PM   #124
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Well, I mean I consider Luke a Jedi in say, ROTJ, but a lot of early Star Wars games had you taking on the role of the movie characters, and this included Luke as he was in ANH or Empire, mostly just being a pilot or running around with a blaster.

Star Wars Trilogy Arcade for instance took us all through the movies, but it was all shooting and flying, except for two short "bonus levels" that had you wielding a lightsaber in first person (it was just "press the key when prompted" style puzzles, really).

Several of the games that do feature Jedi have them in a very limited and small capacity, such as a Jedi "unit" in an RTS style game. Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight was really the first game that tried to give us playable Jedi like we'd seen in the movies and read about in the Expanded Universe. But they had to make up a lot of the stuff on their own, because until the Prequels, we really only saw Luke, who was mostly self-taught, not a full Jedi until the end of the series, Obi-Wan, a former Jedi who was killed off in the first movie, and Vader, who was a turncoat and probably not representative of anything in the role.


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Old 10-18-2004, 08:32 PM   #125
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i know this my be extremly repetative but, if anybody want to be a jedi go play either of the jedi knights games.

if anyone wants to be a star wars grunt play battlefront.


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Old 10-18-2004, 10:03 PM   #126
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This has been stated so many times, I'm just going to narrow it down to a few sentances, and if anyone STILL has a reason against it, tell me so I might have to add a sentace or two.

This is a game about being a grunt.

"Go play (game title here)" is not a valid argument, why not go to jedi academy movie battles 2 forums and tell all the gunners to play battlefront, see what happens.

If you don't want to play as a jedi, then don't download the mod.

If you say "all the servers will be filled with jedi-mods" Then apparently, that's what the majority wants. With all the anti-jedi, and a good mod team to balance it, I really don't see jedi taking over Star Wars Battlefront.


Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
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Old 10-19-2004, 02:22 AM   #127
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yeah i played mod and it sux to be a jedi!>
they dont die +this game is just for soldiers so i think you guys have it ok!'


Star Wars Battlefront!!!
how u can make mods?Add weapons>?<
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Old 10-19-2004, 10:53 AM   #128
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Exclamation thats it

as i said before we just have too wait for the moding tools too come out and then we will. see and shouting "no too jedi" will not help cuse if there are peopole who want jedi in the game there will be jedi in the game

let the "format c:" guard you


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Old 10-22-2004, 11:11 AM   #129
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Post Yeah baby...

I am pleased to see the # of players groups / clans that are already posting "No jedi mods" policies for their groups and servers. Like someone said before, let the masses voices be heard over the whinings of a select few...
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Old 10-23-2004, 12:20 AM   #130
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Or just put a limited Jedi in that mod.
Like 2 or 3 per team.


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Old 10-23-2004, 02:24 AM   #131
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Yeah there will be mods made cuz people want to play as Jedi...
Either way noone is ever gonna be happy...someone will always complain. IMO though there are already several games where you can play as a Jedi and it was about time a game came out where you can be someone else...


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Old 04-03-2005, 12:52 PM   #132
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Why Don't The People Just Download Jedi Mods Or Play Another Game If They Want To Play As Jedi

Personally I Think Jedi Suck
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Old 04-16-2005, 08:54 PM   #133
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Jedi are just in the way in a game like Battlefront or Galaxies or Galactic Conquest. Why? These games aren't meant to have one single infantry unit be more powerful than the others. Even special pick-up kits in Galactic Conquest are carefully balanced.

I'm glad Prolific games didn't make the mistake Pandemic and Galaxies' developers did. The mod is great, and there are no Jedi.

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Old 04-17-2005, 03:19 AM   #134
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*clap* *clap* *clap*

Hello,

First off let me say this: Kurgan you are an exceptional debater and I applaud you. There is no doubt that some of your ideas about implementing the Jedi would work and make the game more interesting. Which moves me onto these two little pieces of information about Battlefront 2...

Answer me this all Jedi Haters, are you not going to buy Battlefront 2 because they added in Jedi? Read these two articles and see for youself that playable Jedi are coming to BF2. So, wake up and get your heads out of the sand, like it or not Pandemic is moving towards this direction.

http://www.gametoast.com/index.php?n...6c88239b4b543b

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...go88/Text4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...go88/Text5.jpg

-d.
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Old 04-17-2005, 11:48 AM   #135
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Kurgan, you're an excellent debater
He sure is.

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Answer me this all Jedi Haters, are you not going to buy Battlefront 2 because they added in Jedi?
I think that is not relevant. Let me explain why:

I never believe people who go "I love this series, but I'm not going to buy the game if this one thing is changed". If someone loves a certain series, one single feature is not going to ruin it for them.

Me, I'm looking for several things in SWBF 2, all of which can be summed up as two things: Authenticity, if that's a word, and complexity. I felt SWBF was not very true to Star Wars and way to simplistic and arcade-oriented. Unless this changes with SWBF 2, I'm most likely not getting it. But you're right, one feature isn't enough to change peoples' minds.

However, the fact that people will still buy the game doesn't mean it's a good feature, nor does it mean that those people shouldn't be listened to. Jedi aren't a balance thing, or a game-play addition, or anything like that (well, they can be, but that's not why they're added). They're simpy put in because some people demand they should be in.

It's not about being "anti-Jedi" or a "Jedi-hater". It's about thinking that there's a time and a place for everything.

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Old 04-17-2005, 01:46 PM   #136
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Well, by adding Jedi along with a more complex objective system, things might work out. I say might because I still think a lot of problems might happen.

In a simple capping flag and dropping the enemy's ticket to zero, Jedi are the worse thing that can happen.

I know, I've been playing these kinds of FPS since...well since forever


And not wanting Jedi involved in one game doesn't make people Jedi haters

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Old 07-29-2005, 12:00 AM   #137
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Star Wars without Jedi doesn't make sense...

I totally agree with Kurgan having played Jedi Outcast and Academy the play balance with Jedi is not a hard code...Jedi can die obviously so it's not like they would be invincible in the game, but would have special powers, but both sides would have them... Have Jedi be able to have light saber fights in Battlefront 2 and let them be able to manipulate objects with the force to hurt there enemies...

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Old 07-30-2005, 02:40 PM   #138
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Old old thread, but here we go again... it's hard not to label people "jedi haters" when they continuously say stuff like "jedi suck!" and such. And they whine "if you want Jedi go play X or Y game." Again I say that's silly. Go take your own advice. Nobody uses Jedi in SWBF, nobody. There's like less than 1% of servers that have Heroes enabled. I can understand that... because not only are they non-playable (without mods that until recently most people had no idea how to use) but they're immortal and have only 1 attack, etc. They're not really Jedi they're just immortals with an instant kill punch move. That's IT. Hardly Jedi that are fun or balanced.

But let's face it, we can use the same type of anti-Jedi argument against this game to apply to other things and be just as unconvincing.

Example:

This is a game about grunt infantry on the front lines of the movie battles! This isn't about getting in some vehicle and fragging away like some fragfest! If you want to drive vehicles go play UT2k4 you vehicle whore! Vehicles sux. Let the majority speak against the lamers and look how popular non vehicle maps are in this game!

Ignoring the fact that vehicles are just as much a part of the game and intended to be used. If Jedi were anathema to the idea of SWBF (and not just how some FAN feels the game SHOULD be) then SWBF2 would not be expanding their role. And if SWBF is all about infantry fighting, why are they expanding the vehicle role in SWBF2? Clearly the developers don't share this "true vision" of what the game should be like the "jedi haters." This reminds me of the "honorz d00ds" in the JK series who whine that the game is truly about "Jedi fighting with the weapon of the Jedi Knight in single combat" and "if you want to have a frag fest or use guns, go play some other game." It's like a broken record! It's just not a good argument when you think about it...

Even MovieBattles 2 for JA has Jedi, despite the focus on "movie realism" and "grunt infantry." Everybody has their idea of the ideal game, but it seems the zero tolerance jedi haters aren't quite the majority they seem to be. At least they're not the people making the games. As for SW FPS games that lack any Jedi and have online play you've got Republic Commando, and... uh... Republic Commando. Sadly the MP in that game was basically left unfinished and quite buggy (even if it is fun, it needs a lot of work and appears to have been abandoned by LucasArts, sadly).

Again I'll say the reason Jedi aren't more popular in this game is because they're not well done out of the box in this game, and there's only so much modders can do to change that. SWBF2 will expand their role, and the ship combat too, since they clearly want people to use them. The whiners who don't like those features will just have to "go play a different game" I guess. Or create honor codes and use mob rule to enforce their "boycott"... but hopefully that doesn't happen!

And being "true to the movies" is something of a misnomer. Anybody who's seen the movies can point out a huge laundary list of inconsistencies between these games and the movies they tie into. Again, like the JK series, fidelity to the movies is only desirable to a point. For multiplayer it's even less desirable. And the developers have made the right decision by departing from the movies in order to ensure better gameplay flow. There has yet to be a Star Wars game that is "true" to the movies, and that's a good thing. The honorz code people claim they adhere to the "truth" of the movies, but they really don't (see any example of "honorz" behavior in movie Jedi for example, you'll be hard pressed to find one).

For example, the Battle of Hoth as shown in the movie (not some EU source after the fact) shows us ZERO infantry combat. It's just some Rebel troopers in a trench firing their blasters and small artillery at some distant AT-AT's and a couple of AT-ST's, and then the Snowspeeders flying overhead. We don't see the Snowtroopers on the ground until the generator has been destroyed, the base overrun and the Rebels in full retreat. And Vader was there, leading his troops! But we never saw him hack anybody down with his saber on the way... And destroying the generator in the SWBF Hoth doesn't really do much, it's just another control point, and it takes forever to do for the benefits you reap, much like taking out the generator on Endor. I never saw any reason to waste the time and effort on it, except out of some role playing desire for completeness. Most of the battle scenarios in SWBF are completely hypothetical, not based on what is shown in the films.

I will say though that SWBF claimed you could fight any Star Wars battle "any way you want to." It didn't exactly deliver on that promise (even before ROTS). Many maps you couldn't choose your faction era. The space combat was non-existant, etc. SWBF2 implies it is their goal to remedy those omissions, we'll see what happens.

The fact that there's no PC demo for either game kinda hurts things though. In the end this is really a console game, that's being sold as a movie-tie in (rushed) with the PC port and its MP as an afterthought. To get the Xbox demo you need to buy some other Lucas product like a DVD. $neaky!


Good luck SWBF2 dev team. You've got your work cut out for you (but the movie-tie in ensures you'll make loads of money even if this is virtually indistinguishable from SWBF1).


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Last edited by Kurgan; 07-30-2005 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 07-30-2005, 05:42 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
This is a game about grunt infantry on the front lines of the movie battles! This isn't about getting in some vehicle and fragging away like some fragfest! If you want to drive vehicles go play UT2k4 you vehicle whore! Vehicles sux. Let the majority speak against the lamers and look how popular non vehicle maps are in this game!
That's a poor example. You can't pick a vehicle off the menu when you go to spawn. It takes infantry to operate vehicles. Without the infantry, there could be no vehicles. Now, in SWBF2, Jedi aren't a selectable class to all; they're given to one player as a reward. But this still throws out the whole concept of the game: play as the grunts. No one player should be more powerful than anyone else based on their class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Even MovieBattles 2 for JA has Jedi, despite the focus on "movie realism" and "grunt infantry."
Well, they never said that in MB2 you "play as the grunts." It's just based on the movies, in which Jedi play a large roll. I disliked the Jedi in MB2 as well, because they were overpowered (blah blah blah, everyone tries to tell me they're so perfectly balanced, yet every time I went to fight a Jedi as a Stormtrooper I got sliced apart)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
For example, the Battle of Hoth as shown in the movie (not some EU source after the fact) shows us ZERO infantry combat. It's just some Rebel troopers in a trench firing their blasters and small artillery at some distant AT-AT's and a couple of AT-ST's, and then the Snowspeeders flying overhead. We don't see the Snowtroopers on the ground until the generator has been destroyed, the base overrun and the Rebels in full retreat. And Vader was there, leading his troops! But we never saw him hack anybody down with his saber on the way... And destroying the generator in the SWBF Hoth doesn't really do much, it's just another control point, and it takes forever to do for the benefits you reap, much like taking out the generator on Endor. I never saw any reason to waste the time and effort on it, except out of some role playing desire for completeness. Most of the battle scenarios in SWBF are completely hypothetical, not based on what is shown in the films.
But despite it not being shown, some of that must have happened. People don't just stay in trenches the whole battle or stay up in their AT-AT until they're knocking on Echo Base's door. You did see some Rebels out of their trenches advancing... after one AT-AT fell. And is it just me or were there Snowtroopers on the ground in one scene?
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Old 07-30-2005, 05:51 PM   #140
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Well, Jedi shouldn't be in. But, as long as they do a good job and make them limited and killable, it's all fine.

In fact, my next map, and infantry only map has two Jedi classes, but they are easy to kill.

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Old 07-30-2005, 05:59 PM   #141
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I think the jedi would be awsome as long as u can kill them.
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Old 07-31-2005, 05:32 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
That's a poor example. You can't pick a vehicle off the menu when you go to spawn. It takes infantry to operate vehicles. Without the infantry, there could be no vehicles. Now, in SWBF2, Jedi aren't a selectable class to all; they're given to one player as a reward. But this still throws out the whole concept of the game: play as the grunts. No one player should be more powerful than anyone else based on their class.
Not so, the Pilot is weaker than the other classes. He only has advantages to his team because he can heal things. Combat wise, he's inferior. Some classes simply have weaker weapons and/or items, based on their class.

The Droidekas can't even use vehicles, so there's one example of a class that's completely cut off from that kind of gameplay. Some classes are slower than others too.

SWBF is not a deathmatch game. It's an FPS but unlike the vast majority of FPS games it's entirely team based. Thus one class does not need to be balanced against all others for equal "one vs. one" play. It's Team vs. Team. It's not quite so keyed up as JA Siege where you're also balanced based on objectives, but you get what where I'm coming from I bet. If MB2 has a similar philosophy I wouldn't be surprised. It would only make sense.

Thus if you were to fight one on one to the death on the ground, certain classes are simply outmatched. But the game isn't meant to be played that way.

Quote:
Well, they never said that in MB2 you "play as the grunts."
Okay, so it's okay for the sequel to be this way, but you can still assert this special role for SWBF. Okay, fair enough. I disagree, but at least you're consistent then.

Quote:
It's just based on the movies, in which Jedi play a large roll.
The Jedi play a large role in all the movies. If anything their role is underplayed in SWBF, and probably SWBF2 as well.

Quote:
I disliked the Jedi in MB2 as well, because they were overpowered (blah blah blah, everyone tries to tell me they're so perfectly balanced, yet every time I went to fight a Jedi as a Stormtrooper I got sliced apart)
According to the movies, this is perfectly realistic. One Stormtrooper can't take down a Jedi Knight single handed (he needs at least 5 squadmates and the element of surprise... witness Yoda and Obi-Wan killing 5-7 Stormtroopers EACH and a mere 12 year old Padawan taking down 6 Troopers before being killed; or else he needs a vehicle to do his dirty work like the deaths of Plo Koon and that one female Jedi who dresses like Adi Gallia).

The only other foes that were a match for a Jedi Knight were a Sith Lord, General Grevious, Jango Fett (barely) or a shielded Droideka.


Quote:
But despite it not being shown, some of that must have happened.
SOME, but clearly many of those battles never could have happened. There were no Darktroopers on Hoth or Endor, because Kyle Katarn destroyed the project before either of those battles occured. We have no mention of them in canon sources. Likewise we have no canon sources telling us that Vader and Luke ran around on Endor cutting people down. We have no instances of Clones fighting droids in any of the battles shown in SWBF other than Geonosis (and possibly Kamino, according to some EU comic book). The battle on Rhen Var took place during the TOTJ era, not the OT or Prequel era. There was never a siege of Mos Eisley between Rebel and Imperial forces that I've ever heard of. Jabba's palace was never the scene of a battle between Rebels/Imperials or Clones/Droids. Come to think of it the only battles that happened really were Geonosis, Hoth and Endor. And even those battles have "errors" in them. Maybe the Rebels did fight the Empire on some of those planets, who knows. But any of the battles involving Dark Troopers, Vader or Luke would definatley be out of place. Likewise in the Clone Wars Era, were Dooku and Mace Windu on the ground in each of them? There were no Jet troopers on Geonosis either. Characters that SHOULD have been in some of these battles (various Jedi, Han Solo, Leia, etc) weren't. I'm not sure about ARC Troopers (they were definately not shown in the movie, I had the impression they were introduced later in the Clone Wars cartoon taking place after AOTC). Nobody rode Taun Tauns into battle, there were no Clone Troopers or Droidekas at the battles on Naboo, etc.

This isn't "wrong" this just goes to show that movie accuracy fell by the wayside in favor of making a "fun" game, at least that must have been the logic of the developers. There just wasn't enough material from the movies to provide all the scenarios they felt players would want. I'm sure the same route will be taken with SWBF2 unless they focus soley on Episode 3 battles and space battles. There just won't be enough material to round out the game unless they make up stuff.

Quote:
People don't just stay in trenches the whole battle or stay up in their AT-AT until they're knocking on Echo Base's door. You did see some Rebels out of their trenches advancing... after one AT-AT fell. And is it just me or were there Snowtroopers on the ground in one scene?
The Snowtroopers were never shown on the ground prior to them being inside Echo Base. The first time we see them outside they're walking around in the base with Vader at the helm. The Rebel troopers "retreat" out of their trenches when the walkers get too close. And yes there is a scene of them "running forward" when one of the walkers go down, good point. Of course I have to ask "why"? Were they running to the debris of the AT-AT to find useful supplies that weren't blown up? Were they hoping to shoot some Snowtroopers that might have survived the crash? Were they just getting exercise? Charging an AT-AT or AT-ST on foot seems suicidal unless you're a Jedi Knight.

So which should we imagine happened? That the Snowtroopers ran alongside their armored vehicles like the Clone Troopers did in AOTC's "Battle of Geonosis"? Or that they stayed inside until they reached the base and the shield was blown, to disembark and invade the base (with the goal of capturing Luke and possibly Han & Leia)?


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Old 07-31-2005, 06:19 AM   #143
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Not so, the Pilot is weaker than the other classes. He only has advantages to his team because he can heal things. Combat wise, he's inferior. Some classes simply have weaker weapons and/or items, based on their class.
The Pilot's only weak if you don't know how to use it. Their grenade launchers, shotguns, and bolt casters could do one-hit-kills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The Droidekas can't even use vehicles, so there's one example of a class that's completely cut off from that kind of gameplay. Some classes are slower than others too.
Uh, the Droideka doesn't have hands.

A class is slower because it has a more powerful weapon, such as a missile launcher... how is that unbalanced?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The Jedi play a large role in all the movies. If anything their role is underplayed in SWBF, and probably SWBF2 as well.
Their roll at all in the games is misplaced. Jedi played the roles of super elite commanders and generals, not grunts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
According to the movies, this is perfectly realistic. One Stormtrooper can't take down a Jedi Knight single handed (he needs at least 5 squadmates and the element of surprise... witness Yoda and Obi-Wan killing 5-7 Stormtroopers EACH; or else he needs a vehicle to do his dirty work).
Yeah, which is why Jedi have no business in an infantry game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
SOME, but clearly many of those battles never happened. There were no Darktroopers on Hoth or Endor, because Kyle Katarn destroyed the project before either of those battles occured. We have no mention of them in canon sources.
And I always hated that they put Dark Troopers in. It simply doesn't fit, and it downgrades the Dark Trooper when compared to what it should be, as portrayed in Dark Forces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Likewise we have no canon sources telling us that Vader and Luke ran around on Endor cutting people down.
Again, why Jedi shouldn't have been in SWBF...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
We have no instances of Clones fighting droids in any of the battles shown in SWBF other than Geonosis (and possibly Kamino, according to some EU comic book). The battle on Rhen Var took place during the TOTJ era, not the OT or Prequel era. There was never a siege of Mos Eisley between Rebel and Imperial forces that I've ever heard of. Jabba's palace was never the scene of a battle between Rebels/Imperials or Clones/Droids. Come to think of it the only battles that happened really were Geonosis, Hoth and Endor. And even those battles have "errors" in them. Maybe the Rebels did fight the Empire on some of those planets, who knows.
Well, if we went with just the battles from the movies, there'd only be a few maps... which doesn't make for a good game. As long as the few maps from the movies aren't screwed up with things like Dark Troopers, out-of-place Jedi, etc., I'm fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
But any of the battles involving Dark Troopers, Vader or Luke would definatley be out of place. Likewise in the Clone Wars Era, were Dooku and Mace Windu on the ground in each of them? There were no Jet troopers on Geonosis either. I'm not sure about ARC Troopers (they were definately not shown in the movie, I had the impression they were introduced later in the Clone Wars cartoon taking place after AOTC). Nobody rode Taun Tauns into battle
...Which is why these things shouldn't have been in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
there were no Clone Troopers or Droidekas at the battles on Naboo, etc.
No Droidekas on Naboo? I'm assuming you mean Super Battle Droids... but yeah, the Naboo maps should have had you play as Naboo security, not Clone Troopers. Super Battle Droids should have been regular Battle Droids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The Snowtroopers were never shown on the ground. The first time we see them outside they're walking around in the base with Vader at the helm.
There is this one scene where it seems there's Snowtroopers or something on the ground, advancing to the Rebel trenches. Either that or they're reinforcements for the Rebels.
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Old 07-31-2005, 12:29 PM   #144
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Not so, the Pilot is weaker than the other classes. He only has advantages to his team because he can heal things. Combat wise, he's inferior. Some classes simply have weaker weapons and/or items, based on their class.
Absolutely not. Grenade launchers are extremely deadly in close combat. They're much more effective then shotguns. I see this as balance. He might have an inferior number of HP, but to compensate, he can heal himself and his teammates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The Droidekas can't even use vehicles, so there's one example of a class that's completely cut off from that kind of gameplay. Some classes are slower than others too.
The logic behind not giving Droidekas the ability to use vehicle is that it's a vehicle in itself. It has excellent ground speed plus a shield that can deflect a lot of fire. Also, slower speed is for balance too and what seems logically normal. A stormtrooper only carrying an E-11 and grenades should be able to run faster then one who carries a big rocket launcher, extra ammo, grenades and mines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
SWBF is not a deathmatch game. It's an FPS but unlike the vast majority of FPS games it's entirely team based. Thus one class does not need to be balanced against all others for equal "one vs. one" play. It's Team vs. Team. It's not quite so keyed up as JA Siege where you're also balanced based on objectives, but you get what where I'm coming from I bet. If MB2 has a similar philosophy I wouldn't be surprised. It would only make sense.
BS. I have no idea for how long you've played team-based games, but when it comes to having a single class slighty overpowered, you'll see people using them en masse. One such example was the M60/LAW combo in Battlefield: Vietnam.
Classes need balance, so that it is possible for one to kill another, without too much trouble. If one class is particularly weak, people won't play with it. Especially in a system like SWBF, where there is no reward for running around playing the medic, people will avoid playing as a medic.
Up to now, two games have succesfully include support classes and made people play with them: Battlefield 2 and RtCW/Wolf:ET.


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Old 07-31-2005, 04:55 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
The Pilot's only weak if you don't know how to use it. Their grenade launchers, shotguns, and bolt casters could do one-hit-kills.
Quick one hit kills with shotguns? You've got to be joking. Then again I haven't played the latest beta a lot online, so maybe it's changed (I tested it a bit and while they seemed better they didn't seem to be one hit kills to me, unless you were terribly lucky).


Quote:
Uh, the Droideka doesn't have hands.
Big whoop. Give him some.

Quote:
A class is slower because it has a more powerful weapon, such as a missile launcher... how is that unbalanced?
The game isn't setup for one on one battles, so some classes are simply faster and some have better weapons. If you take two classes who are equal in speed, etc, and one has a faster weapon (that isn't a pea shooter) he's got an advantage. The one who's loaded with grenades has an advantage over the one with no grenades. The "balancing" of the game is based on your team dynamic, not individual duels like Rocket Arena.



Quote:
Their roll at all in the games is misplaced. Jedi played the roles of super elite commanders and generals, not grunts.
It's true, the Jedi weren't mere "Grunts" but nowhere does it say this game is for grunts only. Pilots aren't grunts either and yet we have them. Elite units like Jet Troopers, Droidekas, ARC's, etc are also more than mere "Grunts." If this game were only about grunts, only half the classes would stay. Unless you define grunt as anyone who fought on the ground, in which case Jedi would be equally qualified as anyone else.


Quote:
Yeah, which is why Jedi have no business in an infantry game.
So I guess the entire Jedi Knight series is wrong too in your mind?


Quote:
And I always hated that they put Dark Troopers in. It simply doesn't fit, and it downgrades the Dark Trooper when compared to what it should be, as portrayed in Dark Forces.
But it's another example of the game failing to measure up to your exacting standards of "correctness." It goes to show that your conditions for accuracey are arbitrary. While your point of view seems consistent (you don't like stuff that wasn't in the movies) it also goes against what the developers obviously intended. The "this game is for grunts only" seems to be what you want, rather than what was intended.

Whatever you like to play is your personal preference, but here it seems you should admit that SWBF in its present from just isn't the game you want. This is similar to the "honorz" point of view (and I don't mean you're as annoying as them by any means, just saying this is an example of a differing gameplay opinion). You have a group of people who have an idea of how the game SHOULD BE, vs. how it really is. Their version differs from the game as designed and requires some changes in order for their vision to become reality (or strictly enforced "rules"). For example you'd have to make a server with no Jedi and forbid the use of Droidekas or Dark Troopers, etc.

Quote:
Well, if we went with just the battles from the movies, there'd only be a few maps... which doesn't make for a good game. As long as the few maps from the movies aren't screwed up with things like Dark Troopers, out-of-place Jedi, etc., I'm fine.
But they are, so essentially the game is totally wrong. There's only a hint of the movies in there. It's as movie accurate as a game like Dark Forces.

Quote:
...Which is why these things shouldn't have been in the game.
But they are so your beef with the game goes beyond the fact that Jedi exist in it. The developers didn't make the game you wished them to.


Quote:
No Droidekas on Naboo? I'm assuming you mean Super Battle Droids... but yeah, the Naboo maps should have had you play as Naboo security, not Clone Troopers. Super Battle Droids should have been regular Battle Droids.
My mistake, there were some Droidekas in the palace. I meant we never saw a single one on the ground during the invasion or during the battle in those fields to "distract" the droid army. If anything they should have only appeared during an inside of palace scenario. Otherwise we're to assume that they were invisible during the movies (like the Snowtroopers rushing across the snow next to their walkers on Hoth). And you're right, the Super Battle Droids shouldn't have been seen in any of those prequel battles except Geonosis (I'd have to re-watch ROTS to see what units were in those battles.. but that brings up another good point, those battles were fought with Episode III style Clones, not the old AOTC ones, another inaccuracy!).


Quote:
There is this one scene where it seems there's Snowtroopers or something on the ground, advancing to the Rebel trenches. Either that or they're reinforcements for the Rebels.
I've never ever seen such a scene that I can recall. If you can get a scene cap or shots or something that would be great. The Battle of Hoth was NOT expanded in either the 1997 or 2004 Special Editions, so I'm wondering where this scene is. We see a few Rebels running in the direction of the fallen AT-AT and we see them retreating at the end of the battle. But never do we see Snowtroopers in the field. They are just suddenly inside the base. Where they running along invisible that entire time? There's simply nowhere for them to be during the battle but inside one of the walkers or a ship that landed later.


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Old 07-31-2005, 05:13 PM   #146
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Btw, I keep wanting to say "SWBattlefront is for lovers" but it just wouldn't make sense. Oops, too late!


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Old 07-31-2005, 05:46 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Absolutely not. Grenade launchers are extremely deadly in close combat. They're much more effective then shotguns. I see this as balance. He might have an inferior number of HP, but to compensate, he can heal himself and his teammates.
Okay I forgot to mention some things. Giving him the ability to heal teammates is IRRELEVANT in one vs. one combat. He has no teammates to help him. So healing ability is useless. Likewise we're talking mano to mano, so he has no vehicles to repair. Again, his abilities are useless. He's weak, he loses all things being otherwise equal.

See, my point is these classes are not and don't NEED TO BE balanced for one vs. one combat. They are based on what they can do for their team, working together. I don't play SWBF one vs. one, do you? Sure in a battle you may run into another soldier and it's just you too fighting, but you get the picture. It's not "an army of one" it's "there is no 'I' in team."

Quote:
The logic behind not giving Droidekas the ability to use vehicle is that it's a vehicle in itself.
A vehicle which nobody can ride of course. I know that reasoning, but again it's arbitrary. Why can you pilot a Spider Droid? It's supposed to be an autonomous unit. Same with the Droid Fighters. And yet somehow you can climb inside and control it. They didn't have to make Droidekas unable to enter vehicles and interface with them. R2D2 doesn't have "hands" and yet he can interface with computers and help pilot numerous starfighters. Maybe the Droideka guns can retract and little claws pop out? Who knows, but I mean it's arbitrary like anything else in this game.

Quote:
It has excellent ground speed plus a shield that can deflect a lot of fire.
I agree in the patch it's significantly improved. But for speed in combat it can't match other classes. A few rockets or EMP's put it to shame. A JetTrooper is far more manuverable than it and can take it out rather easily (even when he's been nerfed in the patch, IIRC). Even a guy with a rocket launcher can take him out pretty easily. A group of Droidekas with shields raised creates a nice screen for combat. Rolling on the ground they can move quickly even though they're exposed to easy destruction. As Vehicle they're pretty pathetic, considering other vehicles can move AND fire at the same time, and have lots more health.

Quote:
Also, slower speed is for balance too
It didn't need to be since it was already too weak. The last patch attempted to fix this by making the Droideka stronger. It's like the Dark Trooper, he was too weak. But this tweaks weren't done so these guys could win in single combat, just so they wouldn't suck so hard that nobody would use them on their team.

Quote:
A stormtrooper only carrying an E-11 and grenades should be able to run faster then one who carries a big rocket launcher, extra ammo, grenades and mines.
The explosives don't hinder movement at all, so I don't see why that should matter. It's arbitrary what they carry anyhow. Why can a pilot only carry a grenade launcher? Why not give him a rifle? Why are the Rocket Launcher guys slower when the "weight" of a bunch of weapons would be equal to the one big weapon they carry? The "long rifle" of the Sniper should be equally "slow" right? It's balanced surely (barring the early attempts) but not for one vs one infantry combat.

Quote:
BS. I have no idea for how long you've played team-based games, but when it comes to having a single class slighty overpowered, you'll see people using them en masse. One such example was the M60/LAW combo in Battlefield: Vietnam.
Honestly I haven't played "class based" team games for that long, only a few years. The reason everyone doesn't all use one class is because these classes confer other advantages as you yourself mentioned, like healing, mines, vehicle repair, speed, that sort of thing. But these have NOTHING to do with single combat which was the original assertion. It was being argued that these units were (or needed to be) balanced such that they could encounter each other on the battle field, have a duel and it could always go either way, like some Deathmatch game. If that wasn't being asserted and this is a strawman of the original argument, please call me on it.

A class can be weak and useless in single combat and still be useful to the team. That's why you have "engineers" in class based games. They absolutely suck in battle, but they're useful in other ways.

Quote:
Classes need balance, so that it is possible for one to kill another, without too much trouble.
They can be balanced for a team setting, they need not be balanced for a one on one deathmatch setting. After all the point of SWBF is not deathmatch, it's working with your team to complete your objectives.

Plus once you enter a vehicle those class differences disappear. The pilots have no better ability at using their vehicles than anyone else they just slowly automatically heal them from inside. But some vehicles are clearly superior in combat to others. Again, they're balanced based on the map and other factors in the team scenario. A swoop bike need not be able to take down an AT-AT/TE for it to be "balanced" and the same is true of the classes.

Quote:
If one class is particularly weak, people won't play with it.
True enough, but if they know the game they'll use that class for its usefulness. If it has no usefulness to the team, they won't use it.

I assert that if the Pilot couldn't heal/repair things and give supplies, nobody would use him. He sucks.

Quote:
Especially in a system like SWBF, where there is no reward for running around playing the medic, people will avoid playing as a medic.
The "reward" is keeping your teammates alive. It's the same reason you have team heal in JA/JK's team modes. There is absolutely no reason to use it other than it helps your teammates. It would be useless in a deathmatch scenario. The guy with teamheal vs. the guy without a team heal having a one on one battle has no advantage. In fact he's at a disadvantage because he wasted force points on this power he could have used elsewhere. Do you see where I'm coming from here?

"Balance" in this game is not necessarily the single combat kind you'd find in a Deathmatch game. It's based on the benefits to your team of having you there. Everything else is personal preference.

Quote:
Up to now, two games have succesfully include support classes and made people play with them: Battlefield 2 and RtCW/Wolf:ET.
MADE them? In JA Siege I see plenty of people using the Tech and I use him/her a lot myself. No the game doesn't force you to use them, but it sure helps a lot if you do. Are you saying a minimum requirement for people using a certain class in a game is needed?

Now you're talking about a different kind of balance. That the one class is so useful that people MUST use him/her or lose. Before we were talking about if a member of one class fought another, is it, or would it need to be perfectly equal... I was talking about if a classes benefits to his team outweigh his other weaknesses (like his uselessness in single combat).


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Old 07-31-2005, 06:17 PM   #148
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As long as the jedi are killable im ok with it. I'm not sure how they're going to put jedi in multiplayer though. I would prefere if they left jedi out of multi. and just put them in singleplayer.
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Old 07-31-2005, 07:59 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Okay I forgot to mention some things. Giving him the ability to heal teammates is IRRELEVANT in one vs. one combat. He has no teammates to help him. So healing ability is useless. Likewise we're talking mano to mano, so he has no vehicles to repair. Again, his abilities are useless. He's weak, he loses all things being otherwise equal.

See, my point is these classes are not and don't NEED TO BE balanced for one vs. one combat. They are based on what they can do for their team, working together. I don't play SWBF one vs. one, do you? Sure in a battle you may run into another soldier and it's just you too fighting, but you get the picture. It's not "an army of one" it's "there is no 'I' in team."
He still doesn't. The ability to heal yourself and additionnal ammo compensates for a lot. You still haven't noted that the pilot class is really deadly in close combat. In fact, on the Jabba's Palace map, there's as many pilot with grenade launchers as there are rocket troopers.
They're abilities that are supposed to help the "team" but in a game that doesn't reward teamplay, they're used in solo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The explosives don't hinder movement at all, so I don't see why that should matter. It's arbitrary what they carry anyhow. Why can a pilot only carry a grenade launcher? Why not give him a rifle? Why are the Rocket Launcher guys slower when the "weight" of a bunch of weapons would be equal to the one big weapon they carry? The "long rifle" of the Sniper should be equally "slow" right? It's balanced surely (barring the early attempts) but not for one vs one infantry combat.
Actually, here's what they carry:

-Regular infantry:
-Rifle
-Pistol
-3/4 thermal detonators
-2/3 anti-tank stick bombs
-Extra ammo

-Rocket infantry:
-Rocket launcher
-Pistol
-4 mines
-4 Grenades
-Extra ammo

-Sniper trooper:
-Sniper rifle
-Pistol
-3/4 grenades
-One droid
-Extra ammo

-Engineer/Pilot/Medic:
-Grenade launcher/shotgun/weird electrical gun
-Pistol
-5 med/ammo packs
-Wrench
-Extra ammo

So yes, the rocket trooper seems to carry the heaviest material.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Honestly I haven't played "class based" team games for that long, only a few years. The reason everyone doesn't all use one class is because these classes confer other advantages as you yourself mentioned, like healing, mines, vehicle repair, speed, that sort of thing. But these have NOTHING to do with single combat which was the original assertion. It was being argued that these units were (or needed to be) balanced such that they could encounter each other on the battle field, have a duel and it could always go either way, like some Deathmatch game. If that wasn't being asserted and this is a strawman of the original argument, please call me on it.
It is still relevant. All of those abilities will help you during single combat (except for vehicle repair). If this one class can kill everything else, then everyone will play it right? Even organized teams could not take down rampaging M60/LAWs, how can a single man expect to fight back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
A class can be weak and useless in single combat and still be useful to the team. That's why you have "engineers" in class based games. They absolutely suck in battle, but they're useful in other ways.
It depends on which game you play. In BF1942/Vietnam/2 and RtCW/Wolf:ET, engineers certainly weren't bad in combat.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
They can be balanced for a team setting, they need not be balanced for a one on one deathmatch setting. After all the point of SWBF is not deathmatch, it's working with your team to complete your objectives.
And it should still reward those who work as a team, but we're talking in public server terms. How many organized teams do you see? Not many. Only a bunch of veterans can pull that off and that's quite a rare occurance on public servers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
True enough, but if they know the game they'll use that class for its usefulness. If it has no usefulness to the team, they won't use it.

I assert that if the Pilot couldn't heal/repair things and give supplies, nobody would use him. He sucks.
If he didn't have a decent weapon, people won't use him. Again, pilots don't suck, they just require a slightly higher skill level to be used correctly in combat but it doesn't mean that a newbie will automatically be owned in combat with a pilot.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The "reward" is keeping your teammates alive. It's the same reason you have team heal in JA/JK's team modes. There is absolutely no reason to use it other than it helps your teammates. It would be useless in a deathmatch scenario. The guy with teamheal vs. the guy without a team heal having a one on one battle has no advantage. In fact he's at a disadvantage because he wasted force points on this power he could have used elsewhere. Do you see where I'm coming from here?
Absolutely, however, in SWBF, there is no reward at all (I'm not sure about JK/JA). A regular player will wonder what's the point of helping the team if he's going to end up at the bottom of the score sheet. We're talking regular players here. So why will he play a class that has no use in combat, if it doesn't reward him with anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
"Balance" in this game is not necessarily the single combat kind you'd find in a Deathmatch game. It's based on the benefits to your team of having you there. Everything else is personal preference.

MADE them? In JA Siege I see plenty of people using the Tech and I use him/her a lot myself. No the game doesn't force you to use them, but it sure helps a lot if you do. Are you saying a minimum requirement for people using a certain class in a game is needed?
The balance is more similar then you'd think.
I see a lot of players playing as an engi in BF1942 too. Out of countless hours of playing, how many engineers helped in times of need? How many medics came and helped as I did with them? Not many. Why? There is no reward for helping your teammate. So the casual player must ask himself this, is my life worth it? Do I waste a life for him, if there's no personnal benefit?

Sure, you can yell :"The game is about teamplay". But we're talking about selfish human beings. Unless you twist their arms into helping, they won't. You have to be realistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Now you're talking about a different kind of balance. That the one class is so useful that people MUST use him/her or lose. Before we were talking about if a member of one class fought another, is it, or would it need to be perfectly equal... I was talking about if a classes benefits to his team outweigh his other weaknesses (like his uselessness in single combat).
I think you misunderstood something.
But to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I was talking about if a classes benefits to his team outweigh his other weaknesses (like his uselessness in single combat).
I will simply say that in the current SWBF system, no, it doesn't.
In a BF2 or RtCW system, yes, it does.


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Old 07-31-2005, 08:14 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
The balance is more similar then you'd think.
I see a lot of players playing as an engi in BF1942 too. Out of countless hours of playing, how many engineers helped in times of need? How many medics came and helped as I did with them? Not many. Why? There is no reward for helping your teammate. So the casual player must ask himself this, is my life worth it? Do I waste a life for him, if there's no personnal benefit?
Exactly. In Battlefield 2 playing as a Medic, I find myself running though the outpost reviving fallen teammates like crazy, running past enemy soldiers as artillery is exploding around me. Why do I put my life on the line to revive my allies? Because I rack up massive points, of course!
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Old 07-31-2005, 09:50 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
He still doesn't. The ability to heal yourself and additionnal ammo compensates for a lot. You still haven't noted that the pilot class is really deadly in close combat. In fact, on the Jabba's Palace map, there's as many pilot with grenade launchers as there are rocket troopers.
They're abilities that are supposed to help the "team" but in a game that doesn't reward teamplay, they're used in solo.
You listed "extra ammo" for all the classes, btw.

So the Pilot is "deadly" in close combat? Well is the Sniper deadly in "far away combat"? Gee, so the Pilot is actually stronger than the Sniper, I see. So one class dominates another. Sniping after all, is not something you do in single combat normally. You pick somebody off from long range who's otherwise distracted. Or I guess you could play cat 'n' mouse wandering around a big map or something. Play SWBF one on one? Anyway, that's not the point. The point is, in "Rocket Arena" this close quarters guy will mop the floor with the "long range" guy. So he's the superior single combat class.

The argument "well everybody uses this" isn't always a solid one. I remember how in Jedi Academy Siege early on people only used certain classes until they learned the benefits of other ones (like the Tech and Demolitions). Now people branch out more (but of course "noobs" always tend to focus on certain classes that are easiest to use for them like Jedi or Assault).

As people learn the game they learn what works. When they don't know much about the game they pick what is most familiar and easiest to learn. It's like how people thought Protect or Grip in JK1 was unstoppable until they learned how to counter it and this knowledge spread.

Quote:
Actually, here's what they carry:

-Regular infantry:
-Rifle
-Pistol
-3/4 thermal detonators
-2/3 anti-tank stick bombs
-Extra ammo

-Rocket infantry:
-Rocket launcher
-Pistol
-4 mines
-4 Grenades
-Extra ammo

-Sniper trooper:
-Sniper rifle
-Pistol
-3/4 grenades
-One droid
-Extra ammo

-Engineer/Pilot/Medic:
-Grenade launcher/shotgun/weird electrical gun
-Pistol
-5 med/ammo packs
-Wrench
-Extra ammo

So yes, the rocket trooper seems to carry the heaviest material.
Actually via your list his carrying stuff would be only slightly heavier than the standard soldier's gear. The Sniper Rifle obviously would be heavy, and carrying a "droid" for crying out loud would be the heaviest thing of all. The Engineer should be painfully slow with all the stuff he's carrying.


Quote:
It is still relevant. All of those abilities will help you during single combat (except for vehicle repair). If this one class can kill everything else, then everyone will play it right? Even organized teams could not take down rampaging M60/LAWs, how can a single man expect to fight back?
So you have Medics throwing health on the ground and then grabbing it to heal themselves as they circle strafe around shooting at one guy they're fighting?

You're turning this into a "either every class is balanced or one class dominates all" thing. It need not be that way. I'd say it's more like "well these few classes are great in combat, and these other classes suck." So if you pick a sucky one, you're screwed if you come across one of the "good" classes alone unless you're just really that much better than he is. Since the game isn't based on single combat, it shouldn't matter at all.

You're putting up the false dichotomy that if one single class doesn't dominate, then all classes must be equal in combat. I'm saying that some are weaker than others, but they make up for it in other benefits to their team or completing objectives.

Quote:
It depends on which game you play. In BF1942/Vietnam/2 and RtCW/Wolf:ET, engineers certainly weren't bad in combat.
Fine, but are you saying in those games any class can meet any other class in single combat and it's totally equal and balanced? Are you saying it cannot work the way I described? I know some people hate JA's Siege mode, and they rant and rave about what's wrong with it, but it's based on the idea of objective/map& team balance, not soldier vs. soldier balance like deathmatch.


Quote:
And it should still reward those who work as a team, but we're talking in public server terms. How many organized teams do you see? Not many. Only a bunch of veterans can pull that off and that's quite a rare occurance on public servers.
A team need not be organized (though that really helps). Just actively help your team, rather than ignoring them and just going solo. In this game you can sort of go solo if you find a decent vehicle and just go around scoring kills. But on the infantry based maps it's rather foolish. Some classes are simply outmatched. You need not be veteran players.. this is why they have clans and stuff. You just learn to work together. Or players you know, etc.

Now it would help if you use teamspeak/ventrilo, etc. The console games have an advantage here because that's usually standard in online games nowadays for them. But you get the idea. You may be stuck with a team full of people who when you ask for cover or defense just say "I don't wanna!" and then you're screwed. Or they may be noobs, etc. I guess SWBF's community is so small you have little choice if everyone is playing the game wrong. That sucks.



Quote:
If he didn't have a decent weapon, people won't use him. Again, pilots don't suck, they just require a slightly higher skill level to be used correctly in combat but it doesn't mean that a newbie will automatically be owned in combat with a pilot.
Not necessarily. I need to repeat why this can be so. People don't pick a class just because he dominates in kills, unless they're deathmatch minded. So what are they doing playing a dedicated team based game like this?



Quote:
Absolutely, however, in SWBF, there is no reward at all (I'm not sure about JK/JA). A regular player will wonder what's the point of helping the team if he's going to end up at the bottom of the score sheet. We're talking regular players here. So why will he play a class that has no use in combat, if it doesn't reward him with anything?
This is what gets me. I can understand people in JA not being team players. They are used to deathmatch and duel, and they are totally out of place in CTF. However in SWBF, a game based entirely on the idea of objective, class based teamplay (there is no other game mode, period) it makes little sense to be a non-team player. So essentially what you're saying is that these people are like the "honorz d00ds" in JK2/JA... they play the game "incorrectly."

But this is no slight against the game itself, rather some idiots who play it.


How would they "fix" this? Give you 20 points everytime you healed somebody?

Quote:
The balance is more similar then you'd think.
I see a lot of players playing as an engi in BF1942 too. Out of countless hours of playing, how many engineers helped in times of need? How many medics came and helped as I did with them? Not many. Why? There is no reward for helping your teammate. So the casual player must ask himself this, is my life worth it? Do I waste a life for him, if there's no personnal benefit?
In Team games the stuff I do I do for my team, that's how it's meant to be played. I don't just try to have the highest score via kills. I mean sure in a team deatmatch that might actually matter, but that's it. Not in CTF, an objective based mode like Assault/Siege/whatever and not in a Domination style game like SWBF is based on.

Quote:
Sure, you can yell :"The game is about teamplay". But we're talking about selfish human beings. Unless you twist their arms into helping, they won't. You have to be realistic.
Then they shouldn't be playing team based games, 'nuff said.

It's not the game's fault if people don't play it right!

In these other games do you win via point totals or not? It's true that in Q3 engine games people whine in CTF when their score gets reset, even though kills don't matter one whit towards victory (ditto for Siege). But unless the point totals actually contribute to the team winning, there's little point. These people need to play Deathmatch where points matter. In Team based games they're just an indicator of personal performance but you can have a great score and still lose. In SWBF the "leader boards" list kills but they don't list control point captures right? Ditto for the score table. It's rather silly on a game based around that goal.


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Old 07-31-2005, 09:52 PM   #152
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Now that I think about it, I don't even pay attention to my point score in JA team based games (except TFFA which I haven't played in ages) until the end of the match.


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Old 07-31-2005, 10:01 PM   #153
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One-on-one combat is frequent in SWBF. If you're trying to capture a Command Post by yourself and an enemy spawns, you'll have to defend yourself.

In Battlefield 2, you get points for doing all sorts of things. Healing, reviving, repairing, distrubuting ammo, neutralizing an enemy outpost, capturing an outpost, assisting in capturing an outpost, assisting in killing an enemy, and more. This is a much better system to encourage players to work as a team.
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Old 07-31-2005, 11:37 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
You listed "extra ammo" for all the classes, btw.
That's because they don't all carry a single clip for their rifles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So the Pilot is "deadly" in close combat? Well is the Sniper deadly in "far away combat"? Gee, so the Pilot is actually stronger than the Sniper, I see. So one class dominates another. Sniping after all, is not something you do in single combat normally. You pick somebody off from long range who's otherwise distracted. Or I guess you could play cat 'n' mouse wandering around a big map or something. Play SWBF one on one? Anyway, that's not the point. The point is, in "Rocket Arena" this close quarters guy will mop the floor with the "long range" guy. So he's the superior single combat class.
No, both are quite balanced, as long as the Pilot is smart. That's the thing with balance. If the Sniper is far away and I'm a Pilot, it doesn't exactly mean that I'm going to die. I could always find a way to kill him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The argument "well everybody uses this" isn't always a solid one. I remember how in Jedi Academy Siege early on people only used certain classes until they learned the benefits of other ones (like the Tech and Demolitions). Now people branch out more (but of course "noobs" always tend to focus on certain classes that are easiest to use for them like Jedi or Assault).

As people learn the game they learn what works. When they don't know much about the game they pick what is most familiar and easiest to learn. It's like how people thought Protect or Grip in JK1 was unstoppable until they learned how to counter it and this knowledge spread.
It's been three years of BF1942 and people still haven't learned that you can't win Omaha Beach with 12 snipers out of a team of 16.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Actually via your list his carrying stuff would be only slightly heavier than the standard soldier's gear. The Sniper Rifle obviously would be heavy, and carrying a "droid" for crying out loud would be the heaviest thing of all. The Engineer should be painfully slow with all the stuff he's carrying.
It still hampers movement. But you're right about the engineer. The Droid however, is only a little bit bigger then a thermal detonator.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So you have Medics throwing health on the ground and then grabbing it to heal themselves as they circle strafe around shooting at one guy they're fighting?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
You're turning this into a "either every class is balanced or one class dominates all" thing. It need not be that way. I'd say it's more like "well these few classes are great in combat, and these other classes suck." So if you pick a sucky one, you're screwed if you come across one of the "good" classes alone unless you're just really that much better than he is. Since the game isn't based on single combat, it shouldn't matter at all.

You're putting up the false dichotomy that if one single class doesn't dominate, then all classes must be equal in combat. I'm saying that some are weaker than others, but they make up for it in other benefits to their team or completing objectives.
But people don't work as a team. If one class is stronger then all other in combat, why pick a support class if you don't have any personnal benefit?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Fine, but are you saying in those games any class can meet any other class in single combat and it's totally equal and balanced? Are you saying it cannot work the way I described? I know some people hate JA's Siege mode, and they rant and rave about what's wrong with it, but it's based on the idea of objective/map& team balance, not soldier vs. soldier balance like deathmatch.
Yes. A sniper can meet an assault and win and vice-versa, just as a medic can fight a soldier and win in RtCW.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
A team need not be organized (though that really helps). Just actively help your team, rather than ignoring them and just going solo. In this game you can sort of go solo if you find a decent vehicle and just go around scoring kills. But on the infantry based maps it's rather foolish. Some classes are simply outmatched. You need not be veteran players.. this is why they have clans and stuff. You just learn to work together. Or players you know, etc.
I've been in clans. It helps, but you're not going to play with them all the time. If you play a lot, you'll stay in public servers for most of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Now it would help if you use teamspeak/ventrilo, etc. The console games have an advantage here because that's usually standard in online games nowadays for them. But you get the idea. You may be stuck with a team full of people who when you ask for cover or defense just say "I don't wanna!" and then you're screwed. Or they may be noobs, etc. I guess SWBF's community is so small you have little choice if everyone is playing the game wrong. That sucks.
BF1942's community is ratehr large. People never helped me. I tried to help them though.
Once, I was sitting on top of the Kharkov hill with what was left of my K98. I was almost out of ammo and a T34 was sitting there trying to cap the flag. I couldn't do anything so I called for help. Did it come? Never. Not the first time it happened too.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Not necessarily. I need to repeat why this can be so. People don't pick a class just because he dominates in kills, unless they're deathmatch minded. So what are they doing playing a dedicated team based game like this?
One must wonder. It's still is an unfortunate yet real fact. People are individualistic and they'll stay that way unless they can get some benefit for helping you.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
This is what gets me. I can understand people in JA not being team players. They are used to deathmatch and duel, and they are totally out of place in CTF. However in SWBF, a game based entirely on the idea of objective, class based teamplay (there is no other game mode, period) it makes little sense to be a non-team player. So essentially what you're saying is that these people are like the "honorz d00ds" in JK2/JA... they play the game "incorrectly."

But this is no slight against the game itself, rather some idiots who play it.
^^^^


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
How would they "fix" this? Give you 20 points everytime you healed somebody?
Believe it or not, doing that (maybe not 20 points) helped teamplay greatly in RtCW and BF2. Before BF2 introduced points for healing, most medics would let you die.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
In Team games the stuff I do I do for my team, that's how it's meant to be played. I don't just try to have the highest score via kills. I mean sure in a team deatmatch that might actually matter, but that's it. Not in CTF, an objective based mode like Assault/Siege/whatever and not in a Domination style game like SWBF is based on.
Like I said, some veterans who look for other types of gameplay experience actually do help the team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Then they shouldn't be playing team based games, 'nuff said.
I couldn't agree more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
In these other games do you win via point totals or not? It's true that in Q3 engine games people whine in CTF when their score gets reset, even though kills don't matter one whit towards victory (ditto for Siege). But unless the point totals actually contribute to the team winning, there's little point. These people need to play Deathmatch where points matter. In Team based games they're just an indicator of personal performance but you can have a great score and still lose. In SWBF the "leader boards" list kills but they don't list control point captures right? Ditto for the score table. It's rather silly on a game based around that goal.
SWBF does keep the number of CP you've captured. In both BF2/1942/Vietnam, you lose when your team's tickets dry out or when you've lost all of your flags and no one is left on your team. In RtCW/Wolf:ET, the attacker team wins if the objective is achieved in a set amount of time. If not, the defender wins.

In both RtCW and Wolf:ET, your personnal performance would help you acquire new weapons and bonuses.
Same for BF2, but not for 1942 and Vietnam, where there was no reward other then self-satisfaction and respect from the other players.
I've noticed that when somebody has a higher score, other players would follow him, help him out when he needs it. It's more psychological then gameplay, but it is fun to have a bunch of followers
Still, in SWBF, if you kill someone, it means -1 ticket for that team. Thus you helped your team get closer to victory. It follows the same ticket system then the Battlefield games.
Nevertheless, somebody could have a huge kill score but the team would still lose because, except for this one special player, the rest of the team sucks. You can't really give any orders on public servers, even if you're the best player and know what you're doing. People don't want to listen.
That's why we have BF2's commander and squad leader system. It seems to work for now, though there's a lot of mutiny votes.


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Old 08-01-2005, 08:02 PM   #155
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Jedi would be cool for singleplayer only.
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Old 08-05-2005, 01:45 PM   #156
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I really think playing as a jedi could really add an extra layer of depth to the game although I do think that there should be an option of whether you want to play as one or not because otherwise all of you "anti-Jedi" wouldnt buy the game and that would be a shame wouldnt it...
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Old 08-05-2005, 02:06 PM   #157
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Yes, it is a good idea... (Which already exists in SWBF to allow - or not - Jedi to be present in Instant Action mode)
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Old 08-05-2005, 04:16 PM   #158
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I think the whole issue over the Jedi in the game is one of choice as you don't HAVE to play as a Jedi nor can you not and the inclusion of them helps the game apeal to a wider audience which is hardly a bad thing is it?
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Old 08-05-2005, 06:08 PM   #159
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Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by =tom=
yeah , give me a break
its so good theres no jedi
they r more anoying then flies

so when u want a jedi get "Jedi Outcast"or "Jedi Academy"
leave this game for the gunners

thx

first of all jedi are cool... cause my friend with the gunns says soo

second make him


rule i do!
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Old 08-05-2005, 07:11 PM   #160
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Lol sorta agree!
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