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Old 12-11-2004, 03:49 AM   #41
DK_Viceroy
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Windu all of our templates are irrelevant now when comparing it to what it will be Petroglyph being made up of former westwood employees have a different design ethos (thank god) to Lucasarts.

I think that an idea from WC3 should perhapos be adopted where if you don't build a CC in 2 minutes your revealed of course it would have to be balanced so if you have an army and economy just no CC you won't get revealed maybe.


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Old 12-11-2004, 08:06 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Well there is a solution to this without going overboard.

1. Use the RoN 'border' system - this means you can only build in the area you currently control

2. Make it so that, once you have no units left, you are defeated. However, if you have unit-prouducing buildings left, you lose when you run out of money

That way, you cant just build anywhere on the map, and you cant hide buildings to make the game never end.
1-Doesn't make any sense in the context. You don't want city building but you want borders? There are better ways. Besides, hiding a last building isn't much of a problem.

2-Like Froz said, unit roaching is way worse. Make it likes StarCraft, no building, you lose. It was so much simpler and roaching never was such a problem.


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Old 12-11-2004, 10:05 AM   #43
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Why is Windu always so eager to add in RoN elements there's supposedly a star wars mod for RoN he could play.


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Old 12-11-2004, 05:55 PM   #44
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1. Correct. All that should be built are military bases, but things like Borders force the player to expand their own territory by using forward bases which are quite realistic, and it also prevents stupid things like placing defensive turrets in the enemy base.

2. True, that is a better idea.

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Old 12-12-2004, 01:25 AM   #45
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I can see Windu's point about forward bases which don't really go down well with realism and it really can't hurt gameplay since SWGB is all about forward bases. They could have borders or the B4ME plot system.


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Old 12-12-2004, 02:51 AM   #46
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The Borders and Plot system arn't Star Warsy and shouldn't even be contemplated being put in the game or need I dig up that example I gave earlier.


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Old 12-12-2004, 05:29 PM   #47
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What is Star Warsy to you? Cause your not happy unless something is very well distinct that is EU.


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Old 12-12-2004, 05:46 PM   #48
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FroZ - Viceroy only calls things un-StarWarsy if they make sense, and hence he doesnt like them.

As i said before, the Border system actually would work quite well, and would eliminate problems encountered in out RTS'.


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Old 12-13-2004, 12:32 AM   #49
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Windu I take it you were somewhat inebriated when you typed that response it shows

I don't really see a borders system work because it seems to promote slowness while quite a lot of the battles have shown fast movement .

There's nothing really wrong with the current system we had in GB just because you don't play it Windu doesn't mean it isn't a good RTS it just could have been better that's all.

The Plot system really doesn't fit because the Rebels would look for the most hidden location. So plots wouldnt work for them snce From what I've heard of the plot system there are fixed plost map wide and none of them are random.

The Empire would build where it wants and not be restricted by plots so that would limit realism.

While Gameplay>Realism there's no point adding in a feature if it does nothing for realism or gameplay.


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Old 12-13-2004, 01:42 AM   #50
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Well Viceroy you cannot comment on the plot system not supporting gameplay cause you have never played it. The old/over used system where you build anywhere is more unrealistic than borders and plots. I don't remember any wars being won by hiding behind forts and having cannon wars until the forts and shields are down and the victor destroys all the other guys forward bases and his starting eco base. Yes swgb is a great RTS but the system has been used time and time again. I bet you have 1000 of the most hardcore RTS players preying that they use the aoe system so they don't have to go back to the drawing board they would rather be an inter as soon as they install the game.

Well the Rebels have to give up the fact they have a hidden base because the enemy knows they are there. Thats the whole point dog eat dog. Aren't most games all preplaced positions even in SWGB I still have a good idea where my enemy is. They have map generators yes but some of the most successful RTS don't have that but still carry thousands of players SWGB can't even hold more than 200 these days. (Still a great game though and I love it).


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Old 12-13-2004, 01:58 AM   #51
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An alternate without borders could be a zone around the starting CC(or any CC as a matter of facts) where you can build but not outside of it. Power Cores would extend that zone. We could find a good excuse for that and it sounds more star wars-y then borders.


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Old 12-13-2004, 02:25 AM   #52
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I like that idea LIAYD that you can only have buildings in areas that are powered sort of like a pseudo Blight.


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Old 12-13-2004, 02:41 AM   #53
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They use a similar thing in Dawn of War and it seems to work OK. You can build a CC anywhere there is enough flat land, but you can only build other buildings in a control zone within a certain radius of a CC or a control point that you've captured and built a turret on.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:49 AM   #54
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...which is exactly how the Borders system works. Of course you would want to change the name of it, but really it's just the area of land you control and can build on and mine resources in. Because of the latter point, it is really in the interest of the player to expand their borders quickly.

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Old 12-13-2004, 04:55 AM   #55
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I had a different understanding of the Borders system where you captured cities and that increased your sphere of influence.

You may have fixed part of it but don't you mean our RTS not out RTS?

It comes to something when I go and correct spelling and grammar.

I think though that it should be tweaked so you can build economic buildings anywhere it just sounds a little restricting early game depending on how much Power Cores or their equivalents use.

Also on another note War Of the Ring uses a similar system for the Forces of evil where you have Slave Masters place War Posts to create an area that's buildable upon.


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Old 12-13-2004, 09:27 AM   #56
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Windu- No no no...there are key differences. Your border system restricts construction of additional CC. In this system, you would be able to build a CC at the other edge of the map and people would be able to build inside your buildable area as long as they are also under their own.
This isn't too restrictive but discourages constructing turrets in an enemy's base. If you wanted that you would have to create a network of power cores extending from one of your CC up to the enemy's base which is a waste of time.
The best example of this would be how the Zerg in StarCraft function. They could never roach with buildings.

Besides, I don't understand how one can look at building roaching as a plague that needs a big solution. If I somehow manage to rebuild a forward base into a full base after my original one was destroyed and kick your ass, then you deserve the ass kicking...


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Old 12-13-2004, 10:48 AM   #57
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Yeah I will say that the only Building Roaching problem conceivable could on the off Chance be Gungan Underwater Prefabs but I don't think houses count towards saving your butt.

Not that it matters since Gungans arn't that popular and their doesn't seem to be a roaching problem since it doesn't take much effort to get rid of the roaching units the Forumites who've played games with Nitro know what I mean.


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Old 12-13-2004, 04:38 PM   #58
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See, i prefer the Borders system. There is no good reason why someone who isnt an ally should be able to build in your territory.


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Old 12-13-2004, 05:40 PM   #59
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It will be an entire different game anyway, no CC massing and pumping out workers for the boom.


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Old 12-13-2004, 10:39 PM   #60
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The problem I see with that though is whether Territory would automatically become neutral if you don't have buildings near it.

Command centers should be buildable anywhere realistically some people set up bases behind enemy lines to maximise suprise.


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Old 12-14-2004, 05:04 AM   #61
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Windu's just pissed because he got beaten by someone who built a forward base and wiped him out

It's going to be a different game right, but it doesn't mean we're not going to have some kind of similar problem.

See borders make no sense. There's no neutral terrritory, you HAVE to build within your borders which is indeed, very annoying to an extent. This is not RoN, it will not work the same. No other RTS has a similar border system. No other RTS has problems without one. Denying a useful startegy is destroying a strategic side of the game.

I don't even understand what the hell is the problem. If you're incompetent enough to let them setup a huge forward base a build a fortress directly in the middle of your base, you deserve it.


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Old 12-14-2004, 06:09 AM   #62
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You should propably add one thing to that statement just before you dserve it.

It should be to the effect that if you let them build the forward base and you can't destroy said forward base then you deserve it.

Now we at least know why Windu doesn't like the game, Because he's a noob at it.

We don't really have any major problem with Roaching at all in GB there don't seem to be many GAMEPLAY problems at all really.


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Old 12-14-2004, 06:23 AM   #63
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I have yet to see vet of any other RTS complain about forward bases. The new RTS do not have the TownCenter spamming ability of AoK so there's nothing to worry. Even so, trying to build a fortress in the middle of an enemy's base is a waste of both ressources and valuable troops to defend the construction site. Then again, if you've succesfully defended you built site in the middle of an enemy's base, you've basically won.


Unless there is a single very strong bulding left(ie fortress) and the map is drained out of ressources(which has never really happened) and you don't have any ressources left yourelf, we never have a building roaching problem. Hiding a big stationary target isn't the best roaching tactic.


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Old 12-14-2004, 06:29 AM   #64
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Well LIAYD it has happened before ask the participants of the Ice Lake Epic during a conflict like that a map can get drained of resources very fast If I remeber rightly nothing natural was left apart from a tiny bit of Carbon in the hotly contested warzone between me and Nitro.


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Old 12-14-2004, 06:31 AM   #65
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I mean absolutely zero ressources left. You still had each other meaning there is trading left. That is still a ressource.


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Old 12-14-2004, 06:33 AM   #66
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Well true but when you have trading left a lot of juggling is required and that then slows you down when food carbon and ore rise to something like 500 a shot.

That's why the Confederacy is better built for the long haul.


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Old 12-14-2004, 06:37 AM   #67
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My point was about zero trading, zero ally, zero ressource.


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Old 12-14-2004, 06:39 AM   #68
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oh then if your at that point your screwed.


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Old 12-14-2004, 06:18 PM   #69
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Actually, i have never been beaten by anyone, so cut the bull. I dont have a problem with forward bases, and they are necessary in RoN.

With the Borders system, yes, there is neutral territory. Your borders dont just go on and on until they reach the territory of someone else. You only have a small amount of territory to start off with and must expand to survive and conquer.

Is a borders system necessary? Yes. With the example you two used, why didnt the Empire just build a forward base right next to Echo Base on Hoth? Why didnt the Rebels construct a fortress next to the Endor Shield Generator? The whole point here is that you are using ARMED UNITS to win the game, not buildings. Allowing people of place any structures next to someone else's base hurts gameplay and realism all at the same time.


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Old 12-14-2004, 06:18 PM   #70
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If you drain a whole map of its resources your not playing the game right.....


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Old 12-14-2004, 06:40 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Actually, i have never been beaten by anyone, so cut the bull. I dont have a problem with forward bases, and they are necessary in RoN.
You said you don't play multiplayer...so right you've technically never have been beaten by anyone. If you did play multiplayer, a few games does not give a good experience.

Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Is a borders system necessary? Yes. With the example you two used, why didnt the Empire just build a forward base right next to Echo Base on Hoth? Why didnt the Rebels construct a fortress next to the Endor Shield Generator? The whole point here is that you are using ARMED UNITS to win the game, not buildings. Allowing people of place any structures next to someone else's base hurts gameplay and realism all at the same time.
Because the Empire on Hoth had SO much time to build a forward base, because the Rebels on Endor brought a fleet with them transporting all the materials to build one. Look, in RoN sometimes, city would get very close(about a few hundred meters on the map). That's exactly the same thing as a forward base except you need to expand your "territory".

Now with a zone surrounding your CC, you do not have the problem. Basically, to set up a forward base you would need a new CC or link many many many power cores. This would be a waste of time and ressources. If you can't be on the look-out for what is surrounding your base, big deal. You have plenty of neutral territory so you're not hampered by any stupid un-Star Wars-y Border system.


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Old 12-14-2004, 10:02 PM   #72
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I would like a system where you start off with a walled area/base with metal gates and you can only build within that base. You expand to other bases outside of that one once you have run out of build space.


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Old 12-15-2004, 12:03 AM   #73
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I think LIAYD's system sounds the best and most realistic plus it seems the one that's more true to Star Wars the rest just woudn't fit correctly.

Forward Base building is never a problem if you didn't know they built a forward base you should find it because you should still be scouting and when you find it you should be able to destroy it or else your not playing the game right.

Froz I'd love to hear you say that to PBGuy since we were playing right there were just a lot of stalemates.


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Old 12-15-2004, 01:04 AM   #74
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luke - that is exactly my point though. The Empire couldnt build a base on Hoth, and the Rebels couldnt build a base on Endor. The whole concept here is that the FIGHTING SHOULD BE DONE BY UNITS. Combat becomes laughable when it is done mostly between buildings, because then you have lost all sense of realism.

In addition, having a borders system restricts turtling and stops tactics like building structures in the enemy base, which luke pointed out is anti-Star Wars. In addition, the player must expand to survive, so there will likely be more combat around various areas where borders clash, much like real life.

Look at it this way, without something like the borders system, it would be like the Republic coming down to assault Geonosis and instead of launching Gunships and Clone Troopers, instead building Defensive Turrets next to the Trade Federation Battleshi Cores.


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Old 12-15-2004, 12:29 PM   #75
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Windu Turtling isn't a problem yes it slows your attacker down but unless your turtling to build up your strength then you will loose.

we don't have a problem with people doing things like that Windu it's called Tactics and if you can't use them then you shouldn't be playing any Real Time STRATEGY since STRATEGY implies TACTICS.

There's no need to add something in that does nothing for gameplay or realism.


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Old 12-15-2004, 01:07 PM   #76
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Windu-For the love of God read man. READ.
You've never seen what a forward base is do you? What do you think it is? A cluster of turrets?
I don't see how my idea isn't viable. I told you already that to build a forward base, you would need to build a brand new CC or link up many power cores. The process is costly and in such a dangerous territory, it might not become a viable option but more of a special feat from a good player.

Let me remind you that forward bases are made to churn out units close to the enemy base. I have never seen anyone actually trying to build "offensive turrets". They're defensive structures and very well balanced to that effect. Let me also say that being a victim and builder of many forward bases, I rarely see any turrets being built there.
Hell, if you consider building barracks and factories as "fighting with buildings" why the hell don't we turn it into an RTT?


Quote:
much like real life.
BS. It's a game. Every RTS involves building units and sending them into combat. You're not going to tell me that in 2 hours, someone can set up a base, churn out 200 well trained and well equipped infantry soldiers.



Endor-It was a bloody commando. Commandoes are not made for base building.

Hoth-And lose the element of surprise? Again, it's a game and if you'll see a Hoth map in the campaign, I can assure you it won't involve base building. This is about multiplayer and single player skirmish.

Geonosis-Look at Hoth and at the rest of the post.


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Old 12-15-2004, 04:23 PM   #77
FroZticles
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I love hearing people who can't rush, harass or boom telling people how to play the game. *cough* Viceroy

If Pbguy was here I'd tell him If you drain a map of all its resources your not playing the game right. Should have been over long before you reach that point.


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Old 12-15-2004, 06:07 PM   #78
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luke - but then as i was saying, the borders wouldnt stop - they would actually promote - forward bases. By creating a forward base, you would be extending your borders giving you a larger area to control. What i'm saying is that using borders prevents things like building turrets in the enemy base.

Viceroy - there is a difference between Strategy and Tactics. Strategy looks at the big picture, so that would basically involve setting up your base, getting resource collection and trading set up etc. Tactics however are small-scale - the actual battle.


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Old 12-15-2004, 07:23 PM   #79
lukeiamyourdad
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Jesus...

Have you ever, ever seen somebody successfully putting a turret in someone's base? I'm sure that tactic has done HUGE damage to you and is not both a waste of time and ressources.

I say it again, having a buildable area around the CC and extended by power core sounds a lot better then borders.

You're impossible, I've explained several times how you do not need borders to counter this incredibly rare and somehow very annoying to you tactic of bulding turrets uin someone's base.

Then again, this revolves around multiplayer and I don't see how someone who does not play multiplayer can understand another human player's strategies. I have not seen the AI doing that, I have not seen humans doing that. The greatest thing that comes remotely close to your "offensive-defensive buildings is the AoK waste of ressource Castle push. Again, power cores make more sense then borders.


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Old 12-15-2004, 09:43 PM   #80
FroZticles
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Power cores and CC are not going to be in this game..... Its a new engine backed with a new company lets drift away from the old GB.


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vs
Battle for Middle-Earth 2

Let the battle begin.....




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