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Old 12-21-2004, 05:30 AM   #121
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R.I.P Star Wars RTS's.

That's what will happen if ANY of Windu's ideas happen he obviously doesn't want anyone else but himself to enjoy the game and even if he got his own way he propably wouldn't actually play it.

Borders arn't needed and everyone has already argued that until thy're cobalt blue in the face. Windu is obsessed with thinking about an SWGB 2 when it most likely won't be, Age of Titans doesn't have Turret pushing because of Seige Myth units being avialible early game.

Warcraft 3 doesn't have much of it either because they're too expensive early on and the Undead require Blight which is similar to Zerg creep to build on.

I'll explain the idea of Blight/Creep

Every time you build/summon a building it creates a circular area around it with Blight on and on the blight you can summon more buildings expanding the area further. Only Town Centers or as the undead Necroplis can be built where there is no blight, Gold Mines can be haunted to create an area of blight, There is also an item which creates Blight but in a nutshell Blight?creep is needed to build nearly all buildings on with few exceptions.


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Old 12-22-2004, 01:25 AM   #122
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Now as for realism, (1) should the Rebels be allowed to attack an enemy head-on? (2) Should the Confederacy be allowed to sneak around? (3) Should the Republic try a slow ponderous attack strategy with very slow vehicles? (4) Should the Empire try to attack with only lightning fast vehicles?
1. Sure. There is no reason why the Rebels shouldnt be allowed to, even if it would probably fail.

2. No. The very nature of Confederacy (droid) armies is that they are loud and attack in large numbers - hardly the right conditions for sneaking around.

3. If you want to go slow, there is nothing to stop them, much like the ability of any side to attack slowly.

4. If you mean Speeder Bikes, sure. They would be easily defeated, but they can try. As for anything else, the very nature of the Empire is the use of large, slow, very heavily armoured ground vehicles, so apart from the Bikes they wouldnt have any fast vehicles.


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Old 12-22-2004, 07:33 AM   #123
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But those tactics are totally unrealistic for the particular civ. You claim we must only use realistic tactics thus those tactics would be unallowed.

Secondly, you claim that these tactics would fail to do any decent damage to enemy just like a real turret push damages enemies. Therefore, you cannot dismiss one strategy over another since technically, the players will understand their crappiness after they use it once or maybe twice.


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Old 12-22-2004, 12:11 PM   #124
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The whole point of the game is to decide the tactics, if we want to sneak around or mass huge armies and attack we can. Its just the game design that limits us hence we can't really mass huge in the beginning of the game forcing us to rush or just sneak around and harass economy.


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Old 12-23-2004, 04:48 PM   #125
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Here of course we have a problem. You can choose to allow the Confederacy to sneak around, and for the Empire to attack with fast vehicles, but then they stop being the Confederacy and the Empire.

The idea here is to play as the different sides, and the films clearly show us that the sides play very differently to each other. For example, if you are a fan of sneaking around and a good air force, you would play as the Rebels. If you love armoured vehicles, you would play as the Empire and so on. While certainly we wouldnt want to prevent players trying out different ways of attacking, they would quickly learn not to use the same tactics with two or more sides.

Turret and Fort pushing though and completely seperate, as they do not really have anything to do with the nature of the sides. They are built specifically for defence, and were never intended to be used as offensive weapons, and it should stay as such.


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Old 12-24-2004, 12:50 AM   #126
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Windu you really need to experience games online to get the full concept on the matter. Things like limiting tactics to sides would be a balancing nightmare.


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Old 12-25-2004, 05:58 PM   #127
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FroZ - and here we have a problem. Do you want an easily balanced game with four generic civs, or a more difficult game to balance with four unique civs?

The Rebellion, Republic, Confederacy and Empire are very different to each other, and they should play that way. If they dont, there is no point in even bothering with the game, because there will only be one civ. Therefore, to have uniqueness you must have different playing styles. As i said, the Confederacy and even the Empire simply do not sneak around. The way they are portrayed in the films confirms this, and if you think about it, guys in bright white suits with huge vehicles really dont go well with being stealthy, nor do loud droids.


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Old 12-25-2004, 06:35 PM   #128
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That is not the point. Uniqueness does not kill tactics.
If people want to use any particular tactic, they can with any civ. They will have a hard time pulling it off due to the civ's playstyle thus undermining attempts at doing so.

The player understand this, thus will not use a tactic he considers as too hard to pull off or simply useless.


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Old 12-26-2004, 04:22 AM   #129
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luke - certainly they could try, what i'm saying though is that they shouldnt be effective. Hence, they would not be used, hence that civ would not have that tactic.


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Old 12-26-2004, 05:39 AM   #130
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Hence turret push is inneffective, hence tactic is inneffective, hence they wouldn't use it.


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Old 12-26-2004, 06:46 PM   #131
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Balancing unit sets is one thing but balanacing the limited tactics each side is given is a whole different matter. I see where this is going. In BfME they sort of captured what your after, all they had to do was give isengard and mordor 400 pop to show the forces of good they are outnumbered but the good sides got castles.

So....

Empire,Confed ,Republic, Rebels could have different pop limits Confed having like 800 Empire 600, Republic 550, Rebels 500 as an example. But I still have no idea how they could limit rebels to sneak attacks unless they really lowered there pop to like 300.


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Old 12-27-2004, 12:45 AM   #132
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FroZ - thats basically what i'm talking about. As for the Rebels, a wayto get them to use sneak attacks would be to githem cloaking units, like Sniper's, and also deny them Vehicles and the ability to go head-to-head in ground battles.


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Old 12-27-2004, 04:24 AM   #133
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I really don't like the idea of different pops for different sides BFME has it and it can be pretty difficult for the Good Side to beat the Evil side when they're both at full pop since the evil side gets a full 200 pop more.

Windu they should always have the option to do those tactics because was Hoth not a head to head battle?


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Old 12-27-2004, 02:24 PM   #134
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That's why you have to use the faster Rohirrim to pick off the enemy's troops slowly. I do admit Mordor is hell to beat since they can spawn so many Orcs.


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Old 12-27-2004, 02:33 PM   #135
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I play Isengard and Gondor those two take more skill and Isengard FU Uruk's do not go down easily, then again neither do Gondor Fully Upgraded Tower Guards in Defence formation.


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Old 12-27-2004, 06:01 PM   #136
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Mordor is the hardest to master rohan is the easiest so you can see pop limit means nothing if the units are balanced right.

Rebels can have vehicles but rebels are not just hit and run they also use strategic air strikes and hit the heart of the enemy. Giving them light armored vehicles would also stop them from head on assults on ground because they would be no match for the other sides powerful mechs.


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Old 12-27-2004, 06:20 PM   #137
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Viceroy - no, it wasn't. The mission of the Rebel infantry was simply to hold off the Imperial forces long enough to get the transports into the air - they did not go head-to-head with the Imps.


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Old 12-28-2004, 06:01 AM   #138
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So the AT-AT attacking the Rebel defense lines wasn't a head-on attack?
So technically, the Rebels used hit-and-run tactics by...staying in their trenches...yes...


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Old 12-28-2004, 07:08 AM   #139
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Luke said it Perfectly what more is there to say

LIAYD = Right

Windu = Wrong AGAIN


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Old 12-28-2004, 03:04 PM   #140
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The Imperials used a head on assult but the Rebels sort of countered with a head on air attack. It was all in defensive measures.


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Old 12-28-2004, 03:08 PM   #141
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It was still a head-to-head battle.


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Old 12-28-2004, 03:12 PM   #142
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Yeah it just had different area where one is defending the othering is attacking

Imperials = ground

Rebels = air


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Old 12-28-2004, 05:22 PM   #143
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So the AT-AT attacking the Rebel defense lines wasn't a head-on attack?
Correct. You have to remember that the Rebels weren't attempting to win the battle, they knew they couldn't. Instead, their ground forces and some combat pilots fought a delaying action which really never had a chance anyway.

The whole point of going head-to-head with an enemy is to defeat them on the field of battle, to break their army. The Empire was certainly trying to do that in ESB, but the Rebels were not. Instead of going head-to-head with the Imps, in which they knew they would lose, they chose to flee instead.

Incidently, while the Battle of Hoth was not head-to-head, the Battles of Yavin and Endor were.


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Old 12-29-2004, 05:06 PM   #144
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You're just trying to justify that you're wrong. Once again, you make no sense. It was a head-to-head battle, whether or not the intentions of the rebels were to win or buy some time.

It shows how much you actually know, calling the Battle of Yavin a head-on attack, fighters trying to pass through enemy defenses to strike a small exhaust port.


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Old 12-29-2004, 11:29 PM   #145
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luke - why would I want to justify myself if I was wrong? The point is moot regardless considering i'm right.

The Battle of Yavin was a sizeable Rebel force going up against the Death Star with the objective of destroying it - gaining a military victory.

The Battle of Endor was a Rebel fleet attacking the 2nd Death Star with the objective of destroying it - gaining a military victory.

The Battle of Hoth was a Rebel attempt to hold off Imperial forces long enough to let the largest number of Rebels to escape. Notice here that the objective was not a military one.

Yavin and Endor were head-to-head because the Imperials and Rebels directly engaged each other, whereas at Hoth the Rebel ground forces did not engage. Basically luke, you cannot go head-to-head with an enemy if you dont attack them. If you knew anything about how military forces operate, you would have known that.


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Old 12-30-2004, 12:54 AM   #146
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Endor was a sneak attack to secure the shield and blow it up. Head-to-head is 2 armies engaging each other directly like Battle of Geonosis but Endor where stealth tactics were used.


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Old 12-30-2004, 06:58 AM   #147
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So basically, the Snowspeeders hovered sround, waiting for the AT-AT to attack them?

Quote:
4.7.4.2 Charges. If a unit is charging a stationary unit, then move it straight ahead to its point of impact. If two units are charging each other then move each equal distances straight ahead to the point of impact. The result will be either a flank charge, head to head charge, or charge to the rear. Which of these occurs depends on the orientation of the two units prior to charge movement. See Figure 6 for illustrations of some possibilities
The Snowspeeder charged up against the AT-AT.

Like Froz said, the ground forces on Endor used stealth to destroy the bunker and so did the two squadrons of Starfighters that striked the first Death Star.If they had actually fought a head-to-head battle against the Death Star, they wouldn't have been trying to sneak past the defenses.


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Old 12-30-2004, 04:42 PM   #148
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FroZ - i was actually referring to the space battle, not the ground battle.

luke - no. But again, their attack was a delaying tactic. They would outnumbered and could not win, which is why the Rebellion sacrificed a few pilots to get the rest of the Rebels away.

I agree that the Endor ground battle used stealth, not head-to-head. However, how did you come to the conclusion that the Rebels used stealth for destroying the 1st Death Star? The whole point of an attack is not to engage every enemy unit or destroy all defences. The idea is to achieve your objective, which in this case was the destruction of the DS. As for stealth, how could there be anything stealthy about attacking a moon with 30 fighters??? The Empire clearly knew the Rebels were attacking, the lack of opposition was due to the Imperial overconfidence.

luke, you really need to accept that I am right here. On Endor, the Rebels used stealth and on Hoth they fought a delaying action. They have gone head-to-head with the Empire, but only above Yavin and Endor.


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Old 12-30-2004, 07:31 PM   #149
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30 fighters is a rather small force. Their goal was to have their fighters sneak past the defenses all the way to the exhaust port.

As a matter of facts, through your logic, the Endor ground battle was a head-to-head battle because the Empire knew that the Rebel would attack and were in fact waiting for them.

Again, on Hoth, the Snowspeeders met the AT-AT head-on. The objective IS military. Gee, ever heard of tactical retreat? They saved their troops so they can regroup and restrike the Empire later on. Not every move you make must end in immediate victory.


Why the hell are we arguing about this anyway? This should be about tactics in SW RTS2 and there's only one person here who wants a limit on possible tactics.


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Old 12-30-2004, 07:38 PM   #150
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I'll double post because this is on a different matter.

We cannot possibly consider a Rebel civ that relies on stealth. They should rely on quick strikes, hit-and-fade tactics but not stealth. It would be possible to have stealth in the campaign or in scenarios but in MP, it makes for very boring gameplay and un-epic battles.


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Old 12-31-2004, 02:07 AM   #151
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Agreed

How boring would it be if all Rebels had to do was camp among trees with troops, rocket troops and light armored vehicles stealthed to ambush the Empire. Not to mention a Rebel mirror match lol stealth on stealth would be very boring and the games community would start declining at a rapid rate.


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Old 12-31-2004, 07:03 AM   #152
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and now we see why the folks at IA gave the rebels that T-3b tank not the least because it was in FC I think.

the GLA in Generals manages to get by however the Rebels would have to have a seriously OP Airforce to stand a chance and by OP I'm seriously talking about really OP here which wouldn't be realistic we've got to think of Gameplay, perhaps we could give them a few republic vehicles that wouldn't be used in the Republic side to represent them using old equipment?


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Old 12-31-2004, 07:07 AM   #153
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The T-3b is the Rebel Heavy Mech Destroyer in SWGB.

We just need to think up about units who can strike hard and quickly. Lots of speed, good firepower, low armor.


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Old 12-31-2004, 07:10 AM   #154
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we could have a regular speeder with a big laser cannon attached onto it (sort of like the Rebel Strike Mech), just off the top off my head I'd have to consult my Fact Files which may be EU but it'd be better than making something up.


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Old 12-31-2004, 07:13 AM   #155
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We have the SWGB Strike Mech that can be reused. It was in FOCOM I think and was also reused for Battlefront.


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Old 12-31-2004, 07:38 AM   #156
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Yeah that too but I'll still sweap through the factfiles and scan up pages on interest.


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Old 12-31-2004, 05:12 PM   #157
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Except that I never said the Rebels should sneak around. Going from my template, which is obviously how I think the Rebels should be portrayed, they do have some stealth units like the Sniper.

However, their main strength is the ability of their Infantry units to entrench themselves (taking less damage and dealing more) while their superior air force takes apart the enemy. How is that stealthy?

This is good for gameplay, becuase they would play very differently to all of the other sides, and it reflects how Rebel ground forces fought on Endor and Hoth.


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Old 12-31-2004, 06:29 PM   #158
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Well I don't know what movie you were watching but thats not what happened on Endor. They used stealth to take out the surrounding imperial guards. I did not see them in trenches or with any air destroying the AT-ST on Endor.


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Old 12-31-2004, 11:19 PM   #159
Darth Windu
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FroZ - I was saying that on Hoth, they used the trenches and air power, while on Endor they used stealth.

Incidently, I was given 'Empires: Dawn of the Modern World' for Christmas, and think it's great. Anyway, for those who havent played it, you can research 'classified technologies', one of which, 'rebellion', works much like the rebels in C&C Generals where a group rise up anywhere on the map. If that sort of thing is going into the new RTS, that would be a great feature of the Rebellion.


Dark Lord of the Purists

Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
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Old 01-01-2005, 12:31 AM   #160
FroZticles
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Its basically the same as BFME powers like the Gondor power to call Rohan Horses or the Rohan power to call upon the elves or ents.


Age of Empires 3
vs
Empire at War
vs
Rise of Legends
vs
Battle for Middle-Earth 2

Let the battle begin.....




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