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Old 06-27-2006, 04:20 PM   #121
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I already made a tread about SEV going beserk, you should read it. What about Boss going force sensitive with the ability to see 1s into the future like the Jedi. Then you could add the story that Boss saw SEV alive somewhere, lets say, Mannan.
OR general Grievous tried to clone his own trooper to infiltrate the Republic and he needed SEV for the perfect infiltrator.
Then again I'm just force sensitive
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Old 06-27-2006, 05:20 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Frost
I already made a tread about SEV going beserk, you should read it.
Why would Sev go berserk? Doesn't make much sense, he was either captured by the CIS, went into hiding in Kashyyyk until he could leave, or he's dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Frost
What about Boss going force sensitive with the ability to see 1s into the future like the Jedi. Then you could add the story that Boss saw SEV alive somewhere, lets say, Mannan.
People don't "go" force sensitive, especially not Clone Troopers, was Jango Fett force sensitive? No, so why would his Clones be?
Manaan? Why Manaan? Sev wouldn't end up on Manaan, and theres no reason why Boss would be there.

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Originally Posted by Alan Frost
OR general Grievous tried to clone his own trooper to infiltrate the Republic and he needed SEV for the perfect infiltrator.
Then again I'm just force sensitive
General Grievous tried to "clone his own trooper"? What does that mean? Grievous' troopers are all droids and what makes you think that Sev would be his "perfect infiltrator"?
No you aren't force sensitive.



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Old 06-28-2006, 03:36 PM   #123
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I meant that Grievous wanted a spy in the Republic. Wait, scrach that, just remembered that Palty does that in his own twisted way. And Mannan... it was just ``lets say...`` idea.
About force sensitivity, if we go by the theory made by Quai Gon Jin that force goes trough all living things, which would include even clones, who are alive, and the fact that Commandos are different from the rest because they have their personalities why cant Boss be force sensitive?
By the way I AM force sensitive
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Old 06-28-2006, 06:15 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Alan Frost
About force sensitivity, if we go by the theory made by Quai Gon Jin that force goes trough all living things, which would include even clones, who are alive, and the fact that Commandos are different from the rest because they have their personalities why cant Boss be force sensitive?
This is not how the Force works with clones. The amount of midi-chlorians in the host is sent to each one of the clones. So let's say Jango had 10,000 midi-chlorians (that's a random number, of course), that would mean that each clone of his had 10,000 as well. No more, no less. Unless they lose an arm or a leg or something. Then they have less.

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By the way I AM force sensitive
That'd be a negative.
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Old 06-28-2006, 06:22 PM   #125
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True, true. But hey cant blaime a guy for trying

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Old 06-29-2006, 07:58 AM   #126
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Well, I know Bush and Bin Laden are force users. No other way they can convince others to such levels of madness and stupidity..anyway..


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Old 06-29-2006, 08:03 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Frost
I AM and I can prove it!
No you can't.



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Old 06-29-2006, 01:27 PM   #128
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We can go on for days about this but we are missing the point.
If not Force than how do you explain I knew about Draenai as a race before even given to consideration in Blizzard?
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:56 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Alan Frost
We can go on for days about this but we are missing the point.
If not Force than how do you explain I knew about Draenai as a race before even given to consideration in Blizzard?
Stay on topic, you're making a fool out of yourself.



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Old 06-29-2006, 04:37 PM   #130
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Ok, ok im cool. So where is SEV Cultist?
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Old 06-29-2006, 05:56 PM   #131
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I think he's dead.



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Old 06-30-2006, 06:19 AM   #132
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The pure simplicity in wich you saed that just broke my spine. But that would be logical due to the SW galaxy where there always has to be the oposite of what are we hopeing.
But what about Revive option? Maybe if he was very long dead by the time they arrive to the site.
I can imagine the revenge. It would be a lot of : and much more.
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Old 07-01-2006, 07:54 AM   #133
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I think the developers should take in some of the Triple Zero/Hard Contact storyline/ideas. Temporarily replace Sev with a commando from the Omega Squad or maybe even search for Sev with the Omega and Delta working together under the command of Ordo and Kal Skirata. As with triple zero Delta squad does deviate from generalized republic orders. Since Kal and Walon have a history, with Walon and Kal being clone/mandalorian compassionate, it would be the perfect excuse to look for Sev. Besides in the story Walon is the type not to allow squad member losses, so theres another reason. They go home, Walon gets pissed, beats on Delta squad, Kal finds out, kicks Walons ass for doing so, and with that, they agree to look for Sev. Maybe a little help from Barden Jusik, since his time spent with the squads in triple zero made him "one of the boys". who will actually have a significant role in the storyline "sensing" that Sev is alive.

I dont see a problem with having vehicles. Not in the sense like battlefront, but more like Far Cry type vehicular action, get behind the wheel, still have the limitations of being in first person (blind spots and such) and having the a team member go nuts on top of the vehicle lobbing out grenades at other vehicles while another hangs from the side sniping enemies ahead. The jetpack idea is pretty neato, maybe have a little more solo missions with better equipments, so instead of taking care of a twenty SBDs with regulation equipment, maybe a jetpack and an EMP launcher. I also agree with the different equipments/armor, make the interface a little different, make a katarn version of the scout troopers equipment for speed, maybe a stealth module, maybe even add a bit of rpg in the mix and equip yourself and team members with some misc items, something that will make the other squad commands a little more functional (Especially that defend area, pretty flaken useless). Maybe someone carrying an assembly required gunpod, like a real world delta squad with helicopter parts in their backpacks. Imagine a huge open area having to defend a broken down gunship, a few hundred droids come in, deploy a few gunpods and start gunning them down. I think the commandos need a fixer up tool ala engineer style, being to slice stuff, blow stuff up at a press of a button is cool and everything, but fixing stuff would be cool too.

So all in all storylinewise i would say,

Scenario 1: Deltas go home, Walon and Kal get together to plan for Sev's rescue, rescue mission, Jusik and some of the Null ARCS (I really want to see these guys in action) help out

Scenario 2: Deltas go home with Sev, only to be commanded to hunt down jedi, they hunt down a few jedi, feeling guilt for killing once allies, Kal and Walon disagree with orders because its just wrong even though they hate jedi (Darman and Etaine love connection might tie in somewhere here), Deltas go against the empire, find their selfworth

Scenario 3: Finding answers to cure for short lives, actually finds cure, they use it find peace in a new planet, restarts a new mandalorian age.

Last edited by -Synthetik-; 07-01-2006 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 07-01-2006, 10:05 AM   #134
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Works for me, but Commandos have standardised armour unless it's upgraded with add-ons, so they wouldn't use scout trooper gear which is far inferior. (A scout isn't meant to jump into a fight!) I like the whole customisation idea, if it's quick and easy, so as not to distance it to far from a FPS.

I don't think the whole game should be just about Sev though, he's cool, but remmeber they're an army, they wouldn't abandon their duties just for one trooper, but it'd probably mean that they'd spend a lot of effort trying to find him.

I can imagine a clone would be taken to some lab for genetic analysis for sep bioweapons etc, so there could be a mission to find "any old lab" and then Sev is found!..maybe not so blunt or simple as that, but something that builds up to it.


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Old 07-01-2006, 10:28 AM   #135
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Then he would be probably be taken by Grievous. We know Grievous wanted to create a army of mutated aliens (who wery much look like humanoid rabbits) but the operation failed due to Anakins, then still a Jedi, intervention. Who sed he wouldnt try something like that again.
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Old 07-01-2006, 10:38 AM   #136
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Those are some good ideas.

Btw, where did you find that bit about Grievous?



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Old 07-01-2006, 11:27 AM   #137
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Its a bit of a embaresment but I wached Atack of the Clones: Episode 2 on Cartoon Network where it was shown what happened to Anakin and how did he became a Jedi knight. In one episode Anakin went to a planet in Outer Rim to find General Grievous where he and Obi Wan stubled on a Droid facility where those experiments where conducted.
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Old 07-01-2006, 11:43 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Frost
Its a bit of a embaresment but I wached Atack of the Clones: Episode 2 on Cartoon Network where it was shown what happened to Anakin and how did he became a Jedi knight. In one episode Anakin went to a planet in Outer Rim to find General Grievous where he and Obi Wan stubled on a Droid facility where those experiments where conducted.
You mean Clone Wars volume two, not Attack of the Clones...
And it's a great series so don't call it an embarrassment, also in the Republic comic Dooku created a small army of cloned Morgukai assassins.



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Old 07-01-2006, 11:55 AM   #139
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Thanks, I got it now.



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Old 07-01-2006, 03:02 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Scenario 1: Deltas go home, Walon and Kal get together to plan for Sev's rescue, rescue mission, Jusik and some of the Null ARCS (I really want to see these guys in action) help out

Scenario 2: Deltas go home with Sev, only to be commanded to hunt down jedi, they hunt down a few jedi, feeling guilt for killing once allies, Kal and Walon disagree with orders because its just wrong even though they hate jedi (Darman and Etaine love connection might tie in somewhere here), Deltas go against the empire, find their selfworth

Scenario 3: Finding answers to cure for short lives, actually finds cure, they use it find peace in a new planet, restarts a new mandalorian age.
Sorry man, but I'm gonna have to trash your storyline...

First of all, this seems to put the game together so that there's literally no action outside rescuing Sev and two or three Jedi. If you listen to Yoda at the end of Republic Commando, it seems like he has big plans for you. And it's not got anything to do with rescuing Sev. I mean, sure Sev is cool, but SOMEONE has to be killed off. It's part of a good plot. It'd be like saying that they'd go back to save Qui-Gon in AotC or something. Doesn't make sense. It would be anticlimactic to have Sev back right away in the game.

Second, I'm not so sure who Kal and Walon are (didn't read the comics), but if they're commandos, there's no chance of them turning against the Republic/Empire. If they're ARC's, then they could, but remember: the clones had Order 66 and the other emergency protocols drilled into them as an ABSOLUTE. It'd be like if you stayed in a movie theater when the fire alarm goes off just because you want to watch the end of the movie!

And lastly, that "Delta goes off to a nice new planet and live happily ever after" part is just... no. Delta Squad "going rogue" as so many people have suggested doesn't make sense. Clone Commandos had the same modifications as all of the rest of the Clone Troopers, but never had any association with any Jedi (as far as I know), so why would they feel so bad about gunning them down? If I was a Delta commando, I'd gladly gun each and every Jedi down. After all, Yoda was the one who made Delta leave without Sev.
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Old 07-01-2006, 04:09 PM   #141
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Kal and Walon are mercenaries hand picked by Janga Fett to train the commandos themselves, they have NO alliegance with both the republic and the jedi. Clones are synthetic Mandalorians, but still ARE mandalorians, and we all know Mandalorians would rather fight for their "brothers" rather than the republic. The clones are still human, still having the ability to feel emotions, and prioritizing duty and brotherhood is one of them. And Kal, being the compassionate epitome of being mandalorian, unleashes their feelings of mindless duty and shows them that they arent mere robots/slaves, they deserve a REAL full length life instead of being used as weapons only to be discarded right after. Just look at Able-1707 he actually helped the rebellion against the empire, so i dont see the reason for the clones not to fight for themselves and have their own agendas. As long as they have emotions they have the chance to go "rogue" (somewhat portrayed in the game by cowardice clone in the second chapter, he ran and hid caused by survival instinct) for personal reasons.

Yes at the end yoda does speak of "greater things" but we all know that jedi arent as wise as they portray themselves to be even in the movies the jedi council is betrayed, if jedi can do it, i dont see why clones cant. and if you havent noticed Niner, Scorch, and Boss have certain doubts in their voices. This is the turning point in their mentality TOWARDS the republic, the Mandalorian instinct to FEEL for their brothers rather than just be squadmates. Sev is the missing part of their pack, they cant just kill him off, THAT would be too cliched, especially in a star wars themed storyline. Even though the happily ever after thing is too :P but hey they were bred to fight for a war they didnt ask to be in, raped with training at an early age, sent off in packs to die, and when they get home they are just naturally killed off, i think thats a bit of a nomination for a good reward such as that
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Old 07-01-2006, 04:52 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Kal and Walon are mercenaries hand picked by Janga Fett to train the commandos themselves, they have NO alliegance with both the republic and the jedi.
Ah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Clones are synthetic Mandalorians, but still ARE mandalorians, and we all know Mandalorians would rather fight for their "brothers" rather than the republic.
I would dispute that. Jango wasn't even a Mandalorian, so I don't see how the clones are. Sure they like the Mandalorian culture, but they're by no means synthetic or even "wannabe" Mandalorians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
The clones are still human, still having the ability to feel emotions, and prioritizing duty and brotherhood is one of them.
They are human for the most part. They are not humans like you and me. Their minds do not work like the mind of a regular human. You could say that they are more primitive, as they rely on orders from a superior to get jobs done. If you read the message as the end of Republic Commando loads, after they leave Sev behind, it says something to the effect of "the painful reality for a commando is that duty comes before brotherhood."

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
And Kal, being the compassionate epitome of being mandalorian, unleashes their feelings of mindless duty and shows them that they arent mere robots/slaves, they deserve a REAL full length life instead of being used as weapons only to be discarded right after.
I'm not sure how Kal would come into play... the clones are wired to obey the Commander-in-Chief, and if Kal isn't Palpatine, I don't think they're going to listen to him.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Just look at Able-1707 he actually helped the rebellion against the empire, so i dont see the reason for the clones not to fight for themselves and have their own agendas.
Wasn't Able an ARC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
As long as they have emotions they have the chance to go "rogue" (somewhat portrayed in the game by cowardice clone in the second chapter, he ran and hid caused by survival instinct) for personal reasons.
That clone didn't "go rogue" either. If all your fellow soldiers are killed off, you have no orders, and you are lost... so this guy went to hide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Yes at the end yoda does speak of "greater things" but we all know that jedi arent as wise as they portray themselves to be even in the movies the jedi council is betrayed, if jedi can do it, i dont see why clones cant.
Not sure what you're referring to here with the Jedi Council being betrayed, and how that fits into this.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
and if you havent noticed Niner, Scorch, and Boss have certain doubts in their voices.
Again, not sure what you're referring to here either. Niner...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
This is the turning point in their mentality TOWARDS the republic, the Mandalorian instinct to FEEL for their brothers rather than just be squadmates.
They don't have Mandalorian instincts, because they aren't Mandalorians. They have the instincts that the Kaminoians gave them, and those instincts are to obey the Commander-in-Chief.

Just look at how all the Clone Commanders in RotS turned against their Jedi General in an instant. They are clearly more advanced and independent than "vanilla" clones, and yet they turn on their long-time friends with ease. Cody and Obi-Wan had a long friendship, as did Bly and Aayla.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Sev is the missing part of their pack, they cant just kill him off, THAT would be too cliched, especially in a star wars themed storyline.
So when Qui-Gon was killed off, was that not fit for a Star Wars storyline? Wasn't he one of the Jedi as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Even though the happily ever after thing is too :P but hey they were bred to fight for a war they didnt ask to be in, raped with training at an early age, sent off in packs to die, and when they get home they are just naturally killed off, i think thats a bit of a nomination for a good reward such as that
NO NO, the fact that they WERE bred for a war they didn't ask for, got raped with training, sent off to die, that is EXACTLY why they don't get to live happily ever after. Their story is TRAGIC; it is meant to be dark and grim. They have no happily ever after. The clones turn into the frickin' Stormtroopers, and that's not a good reward.
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Old 07-01-2006, 05:42 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
I would dispute that. Jango wasn't even a Mandalorian, so I don't see how the clones are. Sure they like the Mandalorian culture, but they're by no means synthetic or even "wannabe" Mandalorians.
Jango is a Mandalorian, the concept of that is its in the culture, people can BECOME mandalorians. He became mandalore too. and I meant synthetic as in laboratory made not in wannabe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
They are human for the most part. They are not humans like you and me. Their minds do not work like the mind of a regular human. You could say that they are more primitive, as they rely on orders from a superior to get jobs done. If you read the message as the end of Republic Commando loads, after they leave Sev behind, it says something to the effect of "the painful reality for a commando is that duty comes before brotherhood."
Not primitive just unexperienced. At the beginning of the game they are "green" to emotions of battle, they werent trained in the psychological aspects of war. and in the end of the game, it takes an actual toll to how they think about their job. They are one hundred percent human, the complexities of wanting to go back to save someone wouldnt be there to begin with. If the republic wanted "primitive" bipeds they would have done a better job with droids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
I'm not sure how Kal would come into play... the clones are wired to obey the Commander-in-Chief, and if Kal isn't Palpatine, I don't think they're going to listen to him.
They would in the books they have. Im not saying they cant be controlled but im saying is that after a while fighting for something they arent ever going to witness themselves, they will become rebellious against their built in program, like droids going rogue because they havent gotten their memories wiped. They get their own personality, and thats what theyve had, such as dancing the mandalorian dance and such. They have a better sense of being Mandalorian rather than being a clone trooper. and if i were them, id fight for what i believe in and if its for my brother it would be for that.





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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Wasn't Able an ARC?
No, at least i dont think so



Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
That clone didn't "go rogue" either. If all your fellow soldiers are killed off, you have no orders, and you are lost... so this guy went to hide.
I didnt mean going rogue, i just meant as in having traits of not always being a puppet all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Not sure what you're referring to here with the Jedi Council being betrayed, and how that fits into this.
Im just pointing out that there is can always be deceit, traitorous, and malicous intent, and that no one has to follow anybody. Same with clones.


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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Again, not sure what you're referring to here either. Niner...?
Another one, i mean fixer, but you know what i mean. They acted like a bunch of teenagers/kids who were told what to do but wanted to do something else. and mentally they are equivalent to children in "real world" aspects


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
They don't have Mandalorian instincts, because they aren't Mandalorians. They have the instincts that the Kaminoians gave them, and those instincts are to obey the Commander-in-Chief.

Just look at how all the Clone Commanders in RotS turned against their Jedi General in an instant. They are clearly more advanced and independent than "vanilla" clones, and yet they turn on their long-time friends with ease. Cody and Obi-Wan had a long friendship, as did Bly and Aayla.
Yeah they are. I dont see where you got them not being mandalorians from, but they surely are. Instincts is given to them its learned by their trainer, Walon being a mandalorian and their sergeant might have shown them the ropes during training. Clone commanders and Clone commandos are different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
So when Qui-Gon was killed off, was that not fit for a Star Wars storyline? Wasn't he one of the Jedi as well?
no it fit, im not saying it didnt, but dude how many people have died for stupid reasons already? Look how some of the jedis died. or even some of the nonjedi . There are deaths and there will be, but its already been done too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
NO NO, the fact that they WERE bred for a war they didn't ask for, got raped with training, sent off to die, that is EXACTLY why they don't get to live happily ever after. Their story is TRAGIC; it is meant to be dark and grim. They have no happily ever after. The clones turn into the frickin' Stormtroopers, and that's not a good reward.
haha, but thats way too convenient. I mean if they didnt mean for the commandos to have anything good go for them, why bother with the background anyway? They could have been just static infantry and thats all but throughout the movies they show emotions and exhibit themselves as being actual people. And they make people actually care about them, why would they have bothered? THey could have been just droids, but theres a reason why ALL the feelings of being a clone and realizing you are in war filter throughout the game. Not all of them can fight for a better future, but some can, and i know some will.
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Old 07-01-2006, 08:33 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Jango is a Mandalorian, the concept of that is its in the culture, people can BECOME mandalorians. He became mandalore too. and I meant synthetic as in laboratory made not in wannabe.
I was under the impression that part of being a Mandalorian is being part of their bloodline, and Jango was just a kid who got adopted by the Mandalorians. I guess I'm off on that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
They are one hundred percent human, the complexities of wanting to go back to save someone wouldnt be there to begin with.
If you look at their genetics, they are not 100% human. They were heavily modified by the Kaminoians just like the rest of the clones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
If the republic wanted "primitive" bipeds they would have done a better job with droids.
"Primitive" in the sense that their genetic modifications "took away" some of their mental capacity during cloning. Still better than droids, but not like a regular human.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
They would in the books they have.
I have a hatred for a lot of the EU, because it contradicts so much movie material. The books stray so much from George Lucas's original intent. If you just watch the movies, you would have the idea that the clones are completely loyal. And yet money-hungry EU authors just HAVE to make these stupid side-stories about how oh, this clone goes AWOL and gets it on with Jango's ex! And yet people consider it canon. Sigh. It sounds more like celebrity tabloid material.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
they will become rebellious against their built in program, like droids going rogue because they havent gotten their memories wiped.
You're forgetting that droids only are rebellious when they change owners, and don't have their memories wiped. The reason why R2 ran off from Luke was because he had a mission from his former owner, who he still thought WAS his owner. Because his memory wasn't wiped.

Clones do not rebel against their training. If they did, they would have ignored the advisor's order to leave Sev behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
They have a better sense of being Mandalorian rather than being a clone trooper. and if i were them, id fight for what i believe in and if its for my brother it would be for that.
But that's the thing, you can't think like them. They don't think like you would. They think duty first, brotherhood second.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Im just pointing out that there is can always be deceit, traitorous, and malicous intent, and that no one has to follow anybody. Same with clones.
Right, just like how all the clones turned against the Jedi. But they ALWAYS stay loyal to the Commander-in-Chief.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Yeah they are. I dont see where you got them not being mandalorians from, but they surely are.
They're not Mandalorians. They're Republic commandos.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Instincts is given to them its learned by their trainer, Walon being a mandalorian and their sergeant might have shown them the ropes during training.
Instinct is something that all life has. Instincts are not learned; they are built in. What instincts the Kaminoians wanted to give them are the instincts they had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Clone commanders and Clone commandos are different.
Genetically, they are identical.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
no it fit, im not saying it didnt, but dude how many people have died for stupid reasons already?
Sev dying at the hands of the enemy would not be stupid. It is part of war. And it would send a message: live by the sword, die by the sword. But hey, he doesn't have to die, he could just be imprisoned. Delta could come across him later in the game, but their objective in the first few missions would NOT be to rescue Sev. Yoda already poo-pooed that.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
There are deaths and there will be, but its already been done too much.
You mean too many people have died?? In Republic Commando, no one in your squad died!

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Not all of them can fight for a better future, but some can, and i know some will.
Yes, that's what the very small number of ARC's did who went AWOL. ARC's didn't have their genetics messed with. But the rest of the clones did, making them essentially mental slaves.
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Old 07-01-2006, 08:44 PM   #145
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Those are all some very good points, lol. I see you've both got strong opinions. That's good.



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Old 07-01-2006, 08:46 PM   #146
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Those are all some very good points, lol. I see you've both got strong opinions. That's good.
Yeah. I must say this guy has the best points of anyone I've debated a "going rogue" aspect of the commandos with...
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Old 07-01-2006, 08:54 PM   #147
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Yeah. I think that it would be possible, but quite unlikely. I do believe that if a clone, commando or up most likely, felt love for a jedi that was in his scope during Order 66, he may not fire. He may try to protect that jedi even, but once the others realized this, I think that the other clones might kill this clone. (Probably not his own squad mates though) Its confusing me trying to type it, lol.



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Old 07-02-2006, 11:57 AM   #148
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First of all you are all right, and second of all you are all wrong.
Clones are soldiers, bred to die, and bred to conquer. They die but others die by them. You cant talk about clones like robots, they are human. Their brothers die and they feel the loss, droids vanish but they rebild. Clones are the wrath of the Republic, bringers of hope and destruction.

They think, they care, they feel. How can you judge about them like that when you never been in combat where your brothers in arms die, when the earth cryes from pain beneath you feet as your nemesis perishes by your hands and his life liquid drips from your face.

They follow orders but they are human. They know they will die because they are human. But still they fight on even though some dont wish it, because lifes depend on them, lifes that are the very core of the Republic.
To some they are slaves to other they are heroes. The Jedi who lead them to battle do not look at them as meat for the grinder, they look at them as brothers. So when Delta squad left Sev behind they knew the price if they go looking for him. Others would die, maybe thousands because of one man.

Would you kill a baby to save the universe knowing if you do not do that all life will perish?

They followed the Order 66 because they thougt it would help the Republic, but Palpantines words are twisted and full of hate. So from the ashes from the old Republic which was pure and simple, rose the Imperium,the twisted snake that eats his own tale.

If the Clones lived longer they would have rised against the Imperium for Imperium was in all ways the oposite of the Republic. But Palpantine forsow this and so clones started to die out due to their genetic programming and never again did the universe saw the heroes of that ilk.
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Old 07-02-2006, 04:24 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
I was under the impression that part of being a Mandalorian is being part of their bloodline, and Jango was just a kid who got adopted by the Mandalorians. I guess I'm off on that one.
No, no bloodline needed, Mandalorians come in different races, not just a bunch of people with british accents (Lots of those somehow)

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
If you look at their genetics, they are not 100% human. They were heavily modified by the Kaminoians just like the rest of the clones.
Being a human has nothing to do with having the "human" biological structure, its the ability to have a soul, the freedom to feel emotions and to act by them. and THEY DO have souls, they feel happiness, they feel sadness.

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
"Primitive" in the sense that their genetic modifications "took away" some of their mental capacity during cloning. Still better than droids, but not like a regular human.
As in

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
I have a hatred for a lot of the EU, because it contradicts so much movie material. The books stray so much from George Lucas's original intent. If you just watch the movies, you would have the idea that the clones are completely loyal. And yet money-hungry EU authors just HAVE to make these stupid side-stories about how oh, this clone goes AWOL and gets it on with Jango's ex! And yet people consider it canon. Sigh. It sounds more like celebrity tabloid material.
the thing is, Delta Squad is EU themselves, so i guess its a little bit more open for people to expand (with limits to actual connections to events), rather than to try to fit into the story. IN ALL HONESTY, i do not like Lucas, or just Star Wars itself, BUT I LOVE the whole idea of Star Wars, thats why i would rather side with the EU aspect instead of the material already written.

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
You're forgetting that droids only are rebellious when they change owners, and don't have their memories wiped. The reason why R2 ran off from Luke was because he had a mission from his former owner, who he still thought WAS his owner. Because his memory wasn't wiped.

Clones do not rebel against their training. If they did, they would have ignored the advisor's order to leave Sev behind.
Nah, droids dont neccessarily have to have different ownerships. Logically, AI would start off as an obedient child, feeling experiences, and finally maturing into adulthood. Those experiences factor into what they will become and thats why they are formatted, to prevent their individuality. I know this will be a horrible example and in KOTOR2 in Telos while trying to infiltrate the Czerka Office to steal data, you take control over a bot (forgot the name). This bot is confronted by an R2 unit, and it had ownership BUT after a few rounds of dialogue, it goes and kills the guards outside. After that they become static NPCs and the little thing gets offended by calling him small and stuff.

Some do(did? will?), BUT only because their genetics werent one hundred percent to kimoanian specs. The thing is, they are still driven but outside influences, Darman got laid, that wasnt supposed to happen. Its all really what experiences they have recieved. Losing a lot will do that to them. And at the end they clearly wanted to stay, and were really fighting the urge to go back and get him. The seed has been sown, and it will grow

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
But that's the thing, you can't think like them. They don't think like you would. They think duty first, brotherhood second.
but they do, they love, they feel emotions of guilt, pain, sadness, trust. Emotions will always rule over duty. Brotherhood is emotions manifested, its really what keeps them obedient. It MIGHT take a bit to get to that point since it is programmed but there is a chance of it happening. If they cut out individuality they would have cut out rebellious urges, but they didnt. That would defeat its own purpose though.



Right, just like how all the clones turned against the Jedi. But they ALWAYS stay loyal to the Commander-in-Chief.



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Originally Posted by TK-8252
They're not Mandalorians. They're Republic commandos.
They are, the only human interaction that theyve had was the training from Walon Vau, who was a mandalorian, who had great pride in his heritage and shared it with his troops. Besides, what better template for clones than those from an already militaristic culture? Cussing in Mando'a and then dancing Dha Werda

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Instinct is something that all life has. Instincts are not learned; they are built in. What instincts the Kaminoians wanted to give them are the instincts they had.
BASIC instincts are, but those are emotions, mainly fear. Those things werent built in, there is no genetic code to obey. Its only because they have no outside interaction whatsoever outside of a militaristic one. They arent going to disobey because everyone around them are obeying the same orders BUT outside influence, like lets say Darman's love interest, Atin's desire to kill his commanding officer, shows that they are able to do those things with the right exposure.

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Genetically, they are identical.
No, at the beginning of the game ko sai tells them that they are better. I guess the whole premise of it is the less mechanical/droidy or the closer they are to being Janga, the better. Commandos are just a step closer to being arcs, commanders are just regular troopers who have excelled more than others.

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Sev dying at the hands of the enemy would not be stupid. It is part of war. And it would send a message: live by the sword, die by the sword. But hey, he doesn't have to die, he could just be imprisoned. Delta could come across him later in the game, but their objective in the first few missions would NOT be to rescue Sev. Yoda already poo-pooed that.
Yeah it would be, look at how he died, the fiercest of the group dying just because he was alone? Thats lame, he was alone infiltrating the CIS base, and theres were SBDs AND Elite geonosians. If he were to die, it would be because of something greater in scale rather than trying to rendezvous. and thats why i said, they need to finish up what they need to do first. I didnt say they are going to jump off that gunship to rescure their vod. More like realizing that a part of them are missing and they go awol to look for it again

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
You mean too many people have died?? In Republic Commando, no one in your squad died!
No i just mean, its cliched in the star wars universe. but again, star wars intself is a drab unemotional thing.

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Yes, that's what the very small number of ARC's did who went AWOL. ARC's didn't have their genetics messed with. But the rest of the clones did, making them essentially mental slaves.
ARCs did, but they still did. Theyre genetics are more like leashes rather than complete diminishing. Like ive said before the basis of rebellious feelings is from EMOTIONS which they clearly have. It will be dependant on their experiences

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niner_777
Yeah. I think that it would be possible, but quite unlikely. I do believe that if a clone, commando or up most likely, felt love for a jedi that was in his scope during Order 66, he may not fire. He may try to protect that jedi even, but once the others realized this, I think that the other clones might kill this clone. (Probably not his own squad mates though) Its confusing me trying to type it, lol.
Thats why its about the squads shown compassion and treated as humans by their sargeants (mainly Delta and Omega squad) and not about the other clones. One little event such as a team going rogue and doing their own stuff isnt going to change a lot in the main story of star wars. As long as they dont do anything extreme as chancellor assassination attempts i dont see why it wouldnt be possible.
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Old 07-02-2006, 05:26 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
its the ability to have a soul, the freedom to feel emotions and to act by them. and THEY DO have souls, they feel happiness, they feel sadness.
Well, so does a cat or a dog.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
the thing is, Delta Squad is EU themselves, so i guess its a little bit more open for people to expand (with limits to actual connections to events), rather than to try to fit into the story. IN ALL HONESTY, i do not like Lucas, or just Star Wars itself, BUT I LOVE the whole idea of Star Wars, thats why i would rather side with the EU aspect instead of the material already written.
Delta Squad may be EU, but they're good EU. They're not "super powerful Force-immune intergalactic space aliens invade the galaxy" type of crap. They fit in very well with George Lucas's vision of Star Wars. And actually, commandos ARE mentioned in AotC.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Some do(did? will?), BUT only because their genetics werent one hundred percent to kimoanian specs. The thing is, they are still driven but outside influences, Darman got laid, that wasnt supposed to happen.
They probably still had the instincts for sex.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Its all really what experiences they have recieved. Losing a lot will do that to them. And at the end they clearly wanted to stay, and were really fighting the urge to go back and get him.
But the important thing is that they did leave. They did follow the order despite their urge to rescue him. That's because the genetics kicked in.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Emotions will always rule over duty.
They didn't at the end of the game.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
No, at the beginning of the game ko sai tells them that they are better. I guess the whole premise of it is the less mechanical/droidy or the closer they are to being Janga, the better. Commandos are just a step closer to being arcs, commanders are just regular troopers who have excelled more than others.
Officially, the commandos are made up of the same genetics as the "grunts." It's just their training that makes them so much better. ARC's are the only clones who had no tampering, besides growth acceleration.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
Yeah it would be, look at how he died, the fiercest of the group dying just because he was alone?
Not because he was alone. He clearly was ambushed. You can hear Droideka fire along with standard droids in the background.

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Originally Posted by -Synthetik-
More like realizing that a part of them are missing and they go awol to look for it again
But they were on the gunship leaving the area! How are they supposed to go back, ask the pilot politely to go back? Like he's going to disobey Yoda too...
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Old 07-02-2006, 06:10 PM   #151
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Now Im going to ask you this:

Whould you kill your baby girl knowing if not done so you would doom the Universe?

Like I said they made their choice like humans, like individuals. Did not Scorch sed " Sir, we cant just leave him behind " ,and "What do you mean one soldier, he was my pod brother!". In the end he understood why, but he felt the loss. A soulless man would just continue to obey the orders with no emotions.

They are ALIVE.

By the way who knows, we are too far away and far too late to understand them.

May the Force wach their souls.

Amen


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Old 07-02-2006, 07:14 PM   #152
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well hey, just my opinion and my defense for my ideal version of part two

I see how you can point it out, but being EU, its can go anywhere. I just think doing the whole Clone creation -> geonosis -> blah blah blah -> order 66 ->imperialism type deal has already been done with Battlefront 2. Its a little lame doing it with such a great storyline and someone pointed out doing good deeds and then doing bad deeds is a little lame. That just made the squad, i dont know, less human and more puppet i guess? They arent lame superheroes with swords made out of light but they are heroes because they care about each other. Theyre VOD and throughout the game thats what it really came down to.

I would actually save a loved one to doom the universe. Not because i need that person, but because that person means everything to me. I am a bit on the romantic side so that defeats its purpose :P

TK, have you read the spinoff series about Omega Squad? Hard Contact and Triple Zero? If you havent, read it and youll view clones as something else. Not a bunch of test tube babies. if you have, kudos for not caring as much. That or ive just had too much republic commando. I am a mandalorian warrior after all
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Old 07-02-2006, 07:30 PM   #153
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TK, have you read the spinoff series about Omega Squad? Hard Contact and Triple Zero? If you havent, read it and youll view clones as something else. Not a bunch of test tube babies. if you have, kudos for not caring as much. That or ive just had too much republic commando. I am a mandalorian warrior after all
I'm not much of a book-reader, but hey, if there was a video game about Omega Squad and it was decent, I'd get it... just like how most people would rather see the movie about a book rather than, well, read the book.

Anyway, I'm just hoping for a sequel to Republic Commando they don't rework all the mechanics of the game and all that... I just want them to finish the story of Delta Squad.
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Old 07-02-2006, 10:32 PM   #154
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Yeah, if you are into the clones more than the actual story of star wars or just like republic commando, read the books by karen traviss, they are really good. Delta squad makes an appearance in Triple Zero. Good good stuff. Start with Hard Contact first though. Thats where Niner (equivalent of boss) came from :P

In terms of game mechanics, they should really just fix up some of the flaws and just update everything else... The gameplay itself isnt original but somehow its refreshing.

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Old 07-03-2006, 03:47 AM   #155
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I live in Serbia so I cant get into contact with The books cause we live far, far away I mean I would gladly read them but they would probably be expensive.


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Old 07-03-2006, 07:22 AM   #156
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I live in Serbia so I cant get into contact with The books cause we live far, far away I mean I would gladly read them but they would probably be expensive.
They're only about 6.99 in the UK.



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Old 07-03-2006, 10:01 AM   #157
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Now I dont know is that cheap or expensive because I dont have your sence of value, but maybe one day Ill get the books.


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Old 07-03-2006, 10:35 AM   #158
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Here's just something that I thought about for a sequel. In Hard Contact, didn't the DC-17m have a scope in its blaster rifle form?



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Old 07-03-2006, 12:40 PM   #159
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Now I dont know is that cheap or expensive because I dont have your sence of value, but maybe one day Ill get the books.
It's cheap guy, Jesus Christ how old are you?



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Old 07-03-2006, 01:04 PM   #160
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Enough to be force sensitive


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