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Old 09-05-2005, 09:23 AM   #81
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Well, I've never seen it written like that (it's KotOR), but surely only a fool would compare it to Jedi Knight, the gaming styles are so completely different, and it doesn't even have multiplayer. As for the stories, even battlefront had a better story than JA, but no way is KotOR better than JO, storywise.
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Old 09-05-2005, 02:58 PM   #82
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Riceplant said:

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Maybe it's just me, then, because I find UnrealEd impossible, and Radiant really quite simple to use.
Radient is easier to learn the basics but UnrealEd has much better support for us modders, as CortoCG described. If you're interested in getting a better handle on the editor, might I suggest you visit http://www.planetunreal.com/architec...rst_level.html It's a really good tutorial on how to use UnrealEd. And for the really eager there are books as well that cover literally every step of the level design process, including models and skins.

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even battlefront had a better story than JA, but no way is KotOR better than JO, storywise.
I didn't think battlefront had a story. The problem with KotoR's story: too many historical inacuracies, though I would argue JK has a better story than JO.


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Old 09-05-2005, 04:55 PM   #83
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Has anybody ever told you guys that you're wound 'way too tight? They're video games.


Me? I just live here. The Sith lord is upstairs in 3C.
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Old 09-05-2005, 06:50 PM   #84
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It was the "KotoR has too many historical inaccuracies," part, wasn't it?

No, I think discussing something as relatively unimportant as a new Jedi Knight game (unimportant in the grand scheme of things, at least ) helps us unwind, especially with so much to worry about in the rest of the world.


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Old 09-05-2005, 07:08 PM   #85
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KOTOR was cool and stuff, and I really liked the story. Certain graphical things bugged me, like seeing the same talking animations over and over and over again. And then how you would see that the reused the same alien sounds... over and over and over again. And then, how they reused the same models over and over and over again. :-\

But other than that, I liked the story, for the most part the graphics, saber anims were amazing. But I like the JK series better because you can actually control the battles.
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Old 09-06-2005, 02:24 AM   #86
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that's because it's a RPG
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Old 09-07-2005, 12:15 PM   #87
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Not one of these again!

I haven't been here since early June!

These threads come every few months and provide the same results. Here is what you people should know:

NO CONCRETE RUMORS EXIST ABOUT THE NEXT JK/DF GAME.

Yes, people can wish it to come, but it shouldn't be pursued yet.

As for the next JK game, I don't really care anymore. JKF2 (may as well include MotS too) was the best of the series. JO and JA sent the series downhill. Raven did not even try to continue the great qualities of the original. SW fps's simply cannot compete with other mainstream FPS's anymore. Too bad, LEC. Good ideas but horrible implementations. As Yoda might say, "Finished, you are. No more shall you prosper."

For those who still have a copy of JK or even remember it, check out Sith2 , an enhancment project that is adding high-detailed assets and engine upgrades to the original award-winning title.


Cheers,
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Hopin' LEC is going to get on track and bring us a decent JK for the JKers of 1997.
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Old 09-07-2005, 03:40 PM   #88
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Or our JK Mod: http://shamusworld.gotdns.org/df2mod/index.html.

(I know, I know. It's not much to look at... yet...)

Hey, that Sith2 thing is pretty cool but I'm always weary about upgrading the original source engine, since no matter how much you improve, there are always rather noticable limitations. We'll see, though.


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Old 09-07-2005, 09:08 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStarMojo
It was the "KotoR has too many historical inaccuracies," part, wasn't it?
Not that - never played KoToR, so I wouldn't know. Just the importance people seem to place on details. I have a friend who ranks games on how good the story is and how 'linear' the play is. Me? I rank them on how much fun they are. Sokoban was fun. No story line. Linear play. And a total gas.

Consider Star Trek: Everybody argues about inertial dampers and if they could work, when the obvious question is why they work for an half-second leap to lightspeed, but not for disruptor fire, which can throw people all over the bridge. Same-same with these games. Spend less time analysing, more time figuring out how to have more fun, and ignore the inconsistencies.

I don't keep track of the 'storyline', and I couldn't possibly care less about it. Inevitably, there is one best path through the game, regardless of how many options you have, and you'll find it eventually. My character is a Jedi, and my sole interest is how to be a truly great one. I'm all over how to win my battles with ever more extravagant and spectacular moves. If I can charge into a room full of enemies, and through a flurry of spectacular stunts drop all of them and sheath my sabre before the first headless corpse sinks to the ground, then I've had fun - I've done something highly unlikely and incredible. In the latter stages of the game where I'm nurse-maiding apprentices, I try to let them do most of the fighting, and still keep all of them alive. The greatest measure of a master's skill is how little he/she has to interfere and still keep their students. That's fun.

It's not about the challenges that the story brings to you. It's about the challenges you can bring to *yourself* through the story.


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Old 09-07-2005, 09:47 PM   #90
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Well, I don't like fighting for nothing. Like in JK2- We though Jan was killed... so I had a reason to hunt down Desann and Tavion. In JKA, Well... yeah, cause sort of wasn't there untill you wanted to kick Rosh's butt when you find out what he did... but for the most part you really had no reason to attack the dudes (no personal reason anyways)
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Old 09-07-2005, 11:36 PM   #91
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It was only a joke...

Actually, I tend to enjoy a balance of the two. Where the story is an integral part of the game, I prefer the major details to be consistent, but it doesn't bother me a whole lot if a few minor, unimportant things are messed up. Nothing can be perfect, after all. Now, where the story is mearly an excuse to blow things up, I have no objections whatsoever. I loved the Unreal Tournament series and that takes a lot of liberties from the universe created in the first Unreal. But it's fun, so what difference does it make if it totally lacks any semblance of a story? I still enjoyed the first three immensely.

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It's not about the challenges that the story brings to you. It's about the challenges you can bring to *yourself* through the story.
Very well put. I never thought of it that way.


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Old 09-08-2005, 09:27 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CortoCG
Statistically speaking, maybe. But it's becoming rather dull. I think Battlefront (plus sequel) and Galaxies will concentrate all the Star Wars fans in the near future. The Jedi Knight community is a dying community.

Compared to JK2/JA, the SWBF community is pretty small. I think there were never more than 150 SWBF servers (and most with less than 10 people) in the first few months I played it, and checking again many months later.

JK2/JA each have between 500 and 1000 servers each, and while they both have many empty servers, the total players far outweighs any SWBF players.

SWBF isn't quite as pathetic as Republic Commando (with it's 15 servers), but still. I don't know if it's "dying" per se, but I'm sure if SWBF2 is "the game they intended to make in the first place" people will have little reason to play SWBF after it comes out. They are even including some of the same old maps (but not only, only a handful appear to cross over... so I wonder if people will just port over the old maps). It appears the SWBF2 will be more of an "upgrade" than a true sequel, even though it's being marketed as a sequel. Basically they want to give you the Episode III hype and fix the old game, plus slap on some bonus features like the Jedi and space battles, stuff that were only hinted at and done poorly in the first game.

SWBF2 will get massive hype, but without the game getting great reviews (I'm sure it will, just because of all the Star Wars hype) and serious improvement over the past incarnation, it won't get the community that SWBF ought to have had.

Galaxies is a whole nother ballgame. MMORPG's don't appeal to everyone, but by their very nature have tens or hundreds of thousands of players. They have thousands of addicted players paying every month to play. They're in a category all their own. But FPS action gamers don't find much in there to their liking. Sure in Galaxies you can do ship fighting if you buy the expansion, but honestly, you're in an RPG already, this is just one facet of the game experience. Most of your time is spent wandering around, chatting and wasting time, buying/trading items and killing the same boring enemies over and over again. All MMORPG's are that way. I guess that's popular.

So yeah, I'd say MMORPG's will always be "more popular" but they're almost in a world by themselves, compared to other online capable games.


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Old 09-08-2005, 09:32 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CortoCG
If they make a new JK game with the Unreal or the Source Engine it would be a great step forward for the series. Both engines have so much more support and are easy to mod. Jedi Academy and Jedi Outcast are both obsolete dying pieces of junk.
Perhaps, but until another game comes out that does all of what these games do, but better (on PC with online play), they won't completely go away.

And the series provides enough variety that if say we had a "pure Jedi" (with only sabers and force and duels) game came out, there would still be warrant to play it.


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Old 09-08-2005, 03:56 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by lukeskywalker1
KOTOR was cool and stuff, and I really liked the story. Certain graphical things bugged me, like seeing the same talking animations over and over and over again. And then how you would see that the reused the same alien sounds... over and over and over again. And then, how they reused the same models over and over and over again. :-\
True, but on the otherhand, at least there were people in the galaxy. In JO and JA, it's like you and the Imeprials are the only people in existence.

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Old 09-08-2005, 03:56 PM   #95
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But Galaxys is updated every 6 months... it seems.
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Old 09-09-2005, 08:09 AM   #96
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Not surprising when they fit the typical MMORPG model. They have tens of thousands (or hundreds of thousands, I haven't checked the actual stats for SWG but if it's popular that wouldn't be surprising) of people, who PAY EVERY MONTH to play. So with that kind of revenue, they can afford to release multiple expansions AND continually update the game. Plus since it's "multiplayer only" they have greater incentive to tinker with things (which isn't all good, people always get upset when things are changed in the game that they thought were fine or cool before, or the changes don't go far enough to their satisfaction... in RPG's).

As I said, MMORPG's aren't for everyone. All things being equal, continual updates and tens/hundreds of thousands of players would seem to be seriously in SWG's favor over and above all other Star Wars games, but keep in mind the shortcomings and differences in the model and atmosphere. If it were simply superior, nobody would ever play any of these other games. But even if you have MILLIONS of people playing KOTOR2, you'd "never know it" because it's a single player game, and I'd be a far harder game to just tinker with or release updates to. All that stuff has to be scripted, whereas in a MMORPG, the players themselves provide most of the entertainment. The rest is just generic hack'n'slash, wandering around and buying/trading items. No story, no character development really.

The best games are the ones that are hardest to add to, because they already have so much you can't top it and/or you'd have to rewrite everything to make it a worthwhile change. Gamers get mad if you change something for no reason in the default mode (that's why mods can get away with it, they're not supported by the company and you can choose not to use them).


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Old 09-09-2005, 06:08 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Kurgan
It appears the SWBF2 will be more of an "upgrade" than a true sequel, even though it's being marketed as a sequel.
The same thing with the JK series. Academy was little more than an expansion pack to Outcast that was marketed as a full title. $50, server list problems right out of the gate and one crappy patch. If history is any indication.......lets just say I wont be rushing to my local game store to by another overhyped SW game.

Galaxies is awful. Im a long time FPS player finding a little entertainment with World of Warcraft but there are almost no redeeming qualities about most MMO's and SWG tops that list. It will always have a great following thanks to those people who think all things Star Wars are great ("Phantom menace smokes braveheart!!!1!!" and has little to do with how great the game is by itself.

When you grow up dreaming of living in a galaxy far far away and being a Jedi, a shoddy online universe delivering something towards that end seems better than it actually is.

There are not too many non-star wars fans hyping the merits of SWG. Ive tried it. Twice. Its terrible.
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Old 09-10-2005, 01:44 PM   #98
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JA came out at a time when most left in the JO community swore no more "Jedi" games were coming anytime soon. Some claimed to have friends at Lucas Arts and Raven and were in contaxt with them via email, yadda, yadda. When JA came out it was a surprise to everyone and we all found out Raven had been working on it since a few days after JO's release. If LA is going to release another game, they are not obligated to say so one way or the other.

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Old 09-10-2005, 02:44 PM   #99
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If that’s so, it won't be out for a while. I'm sure that with all the complaints they've gotten about an "expensive patch", they'll be making the game much more unique than the last two (if at all). I'd assume that we would most likely see one come out in 2-3 years. If not, I don't think they'll be any more.

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Old 09-17-2005, 09:26 PM   #100
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As far as what engine a new Jedi Knighty game should use, I'll just throw out another reason why the Doom 3 engine would be great. Here's something Brian Harris, a programmer at id Software, said on doom3world.org:

Quote:
I really hate to thread-jack, but if you are doing a swordfighting game, you can actually go all-out with doom 3 since the ragdoll and animation stuff is in the game code. You can use the animation for the feet and control the arm bones completely in the code. My suggestion would be to make it third person and when you click and drag the mouse it moves the sword around in the same motion.
Sounds kinda like what Obi-Wan was doing when it was a PC game. Just imagine a saber fight where not only can you directly control the saber motion, but also where physics are combined with it all as well...the possibilities are endless.
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Old 09-17-2005, 10:16 PM   #101
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But Half Life 2 has ragdoll right? Wouldn't it be better to use hl2 because of the havok physics engine and the HUGE environments?


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Old 09-18-2005, 01:28 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Kaan
JA came out at a time when most left in the JO community swore no more "Jedi" games were coming anytime soon. Some claimed to have friends at Lucas Arts and Raven and were in contaxt with them via email, yadda, yadda. When JA came out it was a surprise to everyone and we all found out Raven had been working on it since a few days after JO's release. If LA is going to release another game, they are not obligated to say so one way or the other.
Well, it was only a year after JK2. Using the same engine base saves a lot of time for a sequel. Now it's been more than two years since JA, and still not even a rumor of a new Jedi game (unless you counted ROTS: The Console Game, which I'm told kinda sucked anyway).

At least in the case of JA, JK2 was a great game to begin with. SWBF had serious problems, and its sequel is supposed to supplant it pretty much ("it's the game we wanted to release in the first place" they're saying).

If it uses a new engine (which it will, at least new in the sense of the JK series not using it before), it'll feel new and different. Whether it uses Doom3 or Havok or Unreal Tech, etc. they'll still have to work from the ground up to add the melee combat and force system. It'll still be a lot of work and take years. All of those engines have ragdoll, don't they? It's kind a standard feature anymore in FPS game engines.

The idea of using "Mouse saber control" has its downsides. How are you going to make it work well in an environment with lag such as multiplayer? How are you going to make it useful for a PC gamer that isn't using a controller with dual analog sticks? Having more realistic physics (as Obi-Wan tried to do) and more interaction with the environment is a fine idea, but I'm sure it's even more work. Whatever the case we're in for a long wait.


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Old 09-18-2005, 05:19 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinny
But Half Life 2 has ragdoll right? Wouldn't it be better to use hl2 because of the havok physics engine and the HUGE environments?
Half Life 2 has rag dolls as well, yes...of course the physics code can't be released to modders since it uses Havok. The Doom 3 SDK actually has the entire physics engine open to modders to modify or even replace...in fact the SDK has about half of the games code. I'm not aware of any other major engine out which is this open to modders.

Anyway, Source's collision detection seems to be somewhat suspect which would be pretty bad for saber fights...Doom 3's per-poly collision detection would be far better IMO. Physics-wise, Doom 3, as a game, didn't really use its physics engine very much...it's actually pretty good if you turn on g_dragentity and start throwing things around. (Grab a dead zombie by the arm and swing it around)

And Half Life 2 didn't have any huge environments...it's use of portal skies gave the impression of a huge draw distance, but it didn't actually have anything that large. Artistically Half Life 2 was brilliant and gave those kinds of impressions without actually literally doing it. Source is actually somewhat limited because of its BSP implementation...the Doom 3 engine is portal based and has no actual limit to level size. It also means there's hardly any time to compile levels compared to BSP implementations. A week ago or so, I ported a level from the 1998 game Trespasser to Doom 3...the level terrain is about a mile in size, and it was just a matter of seconds to compile it.

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~trescom/...pic.php?t=3639

And of course Quake Wars is another example of huge environments in the Doom 3 engine...in fact it uses a Doom 3 engine technology called MegaTexture which allows the use of a single huge 30,000 by 30,000 texture for the terrain which completely eliminates the need for tiling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The idea of using "Mouse saber control" has its downsides. How are you going to make it work well in an environment with lag such as multiplayer? How are you going to make it useful for a PC gamer that isn't using a controller with dual analog sticks? Having more realistic physics (as Obi-Wan tried to do) and more interaction with the environment is a fine idea, but I'm sure it's even more work. Whatever the case we're in for a long wait.
Yeah...the multiplayer is especially problematic. I think that won't be completely possible until there are much faster connections that can handle all the physics and collision detection and stuff. As for the mouse thing, I think it could work well if when you click you can swing your saber by moving the mouse...the camera view could continue to move as well, since it would be in the direction the mouse is going (although perhaps it would need to be slower). It would need a lot of tweaking, and it would have to be very smooth and responsive...but I think it would be brilliant if done right. And I think Raven would be a great company to do it since they seem to be pretty good at getting things done properly in a reasonable amount of time.
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Old 09-18-2005, 04:51 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabrobot
Half Life 2 has rag dolls as well, yes...of course the physics code can't be released to modders since it uses Havok. The Doom 3 SDK actually has the entire physics engine open to modders to modify or even replace...in fact the SDK has about half of the games code. I'm not aware of any other major engine out which is this open to modders.
That sounds cool for modders, but really has nothing to do with whether it would make a good Jedi game or not. A company liscensing the engine would have much more access to things than a modder would ever dream. And how many people are going to make a mod of the Jedi game and completely rewrite the entire animation physics and saber engine for their mod? So that really isn't such a big problem as you make it sound.

Quote:
Anyway, Source's collision detection seems to be somewhat suspect which would be pretty bad for saber fights...Doom 3's per-poly collision detection would be far better IMO. Physics-wise, Doom 3, as a game, didn't really use its physics engine very much...it's actually pretty good if you turn on g_dragentity and start throwing things around. (Grab a dead zombie by the arm and swing it around)
Then the question is how that translates to online play. I've been told (and I'm no network systems expert so I could be misunderstanding this) that most games don't have to send a lot of data for online play. You're either shot or your shot. Whereas all the saber stuff in JK2/JA is very complex and error prone. It's their "best compromise" that we endup seeing. The more complex the physics the more strain on the server and the more chances for it to goof up on somebody's end. So while more and more complex physics seems like a great thing, it comes with its own problems.

Quote:
And Half Life 2 didn't have any huge environments...it's use of portal skies gave the impression of a huge draw distance, but it didn't actually have anything that large. Artistically Half Life 2 was brilliant and gave those kinds of impressions without actually literally doing it. Source is actually somewhat limited because of its BSP implementation...the Doom 3 engine is portal based and has no actual limit to level size. It also means there's hardly any time to compile levels compared to BSP implementations. A week ago or so, I ported a level from the 1998 game Trespasser to Doom 3...the level terrain is about a mile in size, and it was just a matter of seconds to compile it.
So we're really talking here about the illusion of huge areas vs. actual huge areas to explore. It depends on the case really. For multiplayer the illusion of size is usually fine. A giant single player level is a nice thing but it need not be done that way, most games tend to break them up into chunks and as long as the load time isn't severe, you'll barely notice you're not in the same giant level, but several sub portions of it.

Quote:
And of course Quake Wars is another example of huge environments in the Doom 3 engine...in fact it uses a Doom 3 engine technology called MegaTexture which allows the use of a single huge 30,000 by 30,000 texture for the terrain which completely eliminates the need for tiling.
Is Quake Wars what they're calling Quake IV now? Also, what's the deal with 30,000 x 30,000 textures? While that's a nice feature to have, that just means you'll have to design a texture that's that big. Is all that work really necessary? I'd be tempted to copy and paste and tile while making the texture to save time! But I'm sure that's just the limit of the feature if you happened to want to use it for some strange reason. I mean, in a game do you stop and stare at each grain of sand to see if it's just a copy of the grain of sand 10 feet away on another patch of ground? Most of the time that wouldn't even matter, in fact probably all the time where an FPS is concerned.

Quote:
Yeah...the multiplayer is especially problematic. I think that won't be completely possible until there are much faster connections that can handle all the physics and collision detection and stuff.
Super complex physics might require them to limit the number of players below what we're used to or skimp on other things. I don't know. But if that's the case, then that's a pretty big trade-off.

Quote:
As for the mouse thing, I think it could work well if when you click you can swing your saber by moving the mouse...the camera view could continue to move as well, since it would be in the direction the mouse is going (although perhaps it would need to be slower). It would need a lot of tweaking, and it would have to be very smooth and responsive...but I think it would be brilliant if done right. And I think Raven would be a great company to do it since they seem to be pretty good at getting things done properly in a reasonable amount of time.
The trouble is I've seen how this kind of "mouse control" which sounds great at first, actually plays out. Everybody remember "Die by the Sword"? It had full mouse control over your swings. Swing your mouse, swing your sword. Swing fast, you swing fast, swing slow, you swing slow, etc. The trouble is even though it worked, it took little skill. Basically a battle was won by who could "wiggle" their mouse the fastest. So break your wrist, and you lose!

It's akin to winning a multiplayer fighting game by button mashing. I mean, what's the fun in that, ultimately? And of course lag affected it like anything else. You could choose between the VSIM mouse system or preset attacks, but there's my point. People assume a free swinging mouse based saber would be more realistic and more fun, more movie-like, more natural, etc. but there's still the issue of game balance and fun. People would learn to swing wildly to overcome their opponents.


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Old 09-18-2005, 06:56 PM   #105
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That sounds cool for modders, but really has nothing to do with whether it would make a good Jedi game or not. A company liscensing the engine would have much more access to things than a modder would ever dream. And how many people are going to make a mod of the Jedi game and completely rewrite the entire animation physics and saber engine for their mod? So that really isn't such a big problem as you make it sound.
Well I noticed people talking about ease of modding and stuff earlier, and this certainly is pretty big as far as that goes. (Especially if the combat system relies heavily on physics...with a closed physics engine anyone wanting to change the system is pretty much screwed)


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Then the question is how that translates to online play. I've been told (and I'm no network systems expert so I could be misunderstanding this) that most games don't have to send a lot of data for online play. You're either shot or your shot. Whereas all the saber stuff in JK2/JA is very complex and error prone. It's their "best compromise" that we endup seeing. The more complex the physics the more strain on the server and the more chances for it to goof up on somebody's end. So while more and more complex physics seems like a great thing, it comes with its own problems.



So we're really talking here about the illusion of huge areas vs. actual huge areas to explore. It depends on the case really. For multiplayer the illusion of size is usually fine. A giant single player level is a nice thing but it need not be done that way, most games tend to break them up into chunks and as long as the load time isn't severe, you'll barely notice you're not in the same giant level, but several sub portions of it.
Yep, well a lot of this comes down to SP vs. MP...I'm thinking more from a SP standpoint here rather than MP. For MP you can always just simplify things if there's too much going on...Quake 4 for example uses hitboxes in MP rather than per-poly collision detection since that was one of the things that caused Doom 3's lag. Jedi Knight games have always had a major SP focus and the better tech would greatly enhance that. MP unfortunately can't benefit from most of the physics stuff because of the lag, but at least it can be in SP.



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Is Quake Wars what they're calling Quake IV now? Also, what's the deal with 30,000 x 30,000 textures? While that's a nice feature to have, that just means you'll have to design a texture that's that big. Is all that work really necessary? I'd be tempted to copy and paste and tile while making the texture to save time! But I'm sure that's just the limit of the feature if you happened to want to use it for some strange reason. I mean, in a game do you stop and stare at each grain of sand to see if it's just a copy of the grain of sand 10 feet away on another patch of ground? Most of the time that wouldn't even matter, in fact probably all the time where an FPS is concerned.
Actually Quake Wars is a completely different game that is being developed by Splash Damage (who made RTCW: Enemy Territory)...in fact the full name is Enemy Territory: Quake Wars.

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/enemy-territory-quake-wars/

I don't think anyone actually draws the 30,000 x 30,000 texture by hand...Splash Damage hired some texture artists with procedural texture experience, so I think the texture may actually be procedurally generated at load time. (1Gb textures are kind of heavy to be including with each level) Apparently different materials have different physical properties, which makes me think the artist just "paints" different materials onto the terrain. With procedurally generated materials, you can have huge expanses of sand or rock or something without tiling. Look at the Trespasser screens in the link I posted to see why tiling is a bad thing...tiling isn't a problem up close, it's the overall pattern that becomes very apparent when seen from a distance that looks bad. It means a lot of extra work to hide the tiling. With the ability to just have a huge texture, things are a snap to make (at least with procedurally generated textures).

And I would like to see larger levels...One of things that was great about Jedi Knight was how huge the levels were. When I think "huge environment" that's the sort of thing I think of. You can't fake Jedi Knight's levels with portal skies. And besides, with vehicles and stuff, large levels are pretty much a must or else it feels very cramped. The image in my head right at the moment is the very high elevator in the fuel station level...it was incredible because the elevator was just screaming up at a tremendous speed, but the tower was so high it still took a long time...looking at the space ship you could tell that the size was real. That's the sort of thing that needs to return.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The trouble is I've seen how this kind of "mouse control" which sounds great at first, actually plays out. Everybody remember "Die by the Sword"? It had full mouse control over your swings. Swing your mouse, swing your sword. Swing fast, you swing fast, swing slow, you swing slow, etc. The trouble is even though it worked, it took little skill. Basically a battle was won by who could "wiggle" their mouse the fastest. So break your wrist, and you lose!

It's akin to winning a multiplayer fighting game by button mashing. I mean, what's the fun in that, ultimately? And of course lag affected it like anything else. You could choose between the VSIM mouse system or preset attacks, but there's my point. People assume a free swinging mouse based saber would be more realistic and more fun, more movie-like, more natural, etc. but there's still the issue of game balance and fun. People would learn to swing wildly to overcome their opponents.
Well, that's why physics would be a must as well...in real life if you try and quickly swing your weapon back and forth like that you'd quickly lose your balance and end up making a fool of yourself (in quite a deadly way). If things are set up right the same thing would happen in-game...it would require players actually use their head to win. Of course with MP all this data is a nightmare to get across the internet...it could probably work over LAN if we're talking 2-3 person duels. I guess other than that we're stuck with Jedi Outcast combat (since even Jedi Academy was problematic).

Personally I hated Die by the Sword's system since it seemed like the swing was always way too high or way to low or something...it was never where I felt I was actually moving my mouse. I think technology may not have been far enough along for it to work properly...I think it could be done now though. Of course it's no easy task, and it could easily come off completely wrong, but I still think it could be worth it, at least for SP.
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Old 09-18-2005, 08:43 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabrobot
Well, that's why physics would be a must as well...in real life if you try and quickly swing your weapon back and forth like that you'd quickly lose your balance and end up making a fool of yourself (in quite a deadly way). If things are set up right the same thing would happen in-game...it would require players actually use their head to win. Of course with MP all this data is a nightmare to get across the internet...it could probably work over LAN if we're talking 2-3 person duels. I guess other than that we're stuck with Jedi Outcast combat (since even Jedi Academy was problematic).
That's all well and good but you'd have to part artificial limits on people then, because in the gaming world most of the stuff that limits us in real life doesn't apply, and for good reason (it's more complicated and cuts into the fun). Would they add a tired meter as well? Think of how over-reliance on physics ruined a game like Trespasser. Now there was a disaster! Not only was it "unrealistic" but it wasn't even fun.

Would it really be desirable to have a feature that makes you stab yourself with your lightsaber or fall flat on your face if you swing your saber too fast?

The thing is, if this were a straight "duel" game, it wouldn't be such an issue. Like Doom3's small intimate matches, this could be a very personal, Soul Calibur-esque experience. The trouble is, that's a radical departure from the rest of the JK series. I think you'd drive away a lot of fans if you did that.

Leave that kind of thing to games like Revenge of the Sith or Obi-Wan. Then again playing on the console does have certain advantages there (if you're both playing on the same machine... no lag!).

Quote:
Personally I hated Die by the Sword's system since it seemed like the swing was always way too high or way to low or something...it was never where I felt I was actually moving my mouse. I think technology may not have been far enough along for it to work properly...I think it could be done now though. Of course it's no easy task, and it could easily come off completely wrong, but I still think it could be worth it, at least for SP.
Doesn't matter. The point is, this type of control would just lend itself to "mouse wiggling" not skill. To counteract it would mean either introducing silliness straight out of Trespasser (see my above comment) or slapping "unrealistic" limits on how often you could swing. Ultimately I think it sounds like a good idea, but when you get down to it, it's not really an improvement.

In the end, you'll still end up with what we had in JK2/JA... a disconnect between Single Player and Multiplayer, two seperate games, which means even longer development time or they sacrifice one game mode's quality for the other.


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Old 09-19-2005, 03:57 AM   #107
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Yeah, well I was mostly just thinking of something where if you try swinging your mouse back and forth, you end up off balance making it easy for the other person to knock you to the floor (if you haven't already fallen down due to swinging back and forth). More like something where the physics assist the way the gameplay is programmed, rather than the physics being the gameplay. (As you pointed out Trespasser showed what happens when you try taking that to the extreme) I guess ultimately you're right though that Jedi Knight is more of an all-out combat type of game where that type of precise combat isn't really appropriate. Still, I think elements of the tech could be incorporated to push JO/JA's combat further. Something to make a jump like JK to JO.
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Old 09-19-2005, 10:43 AM   #108
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The mouse-based saber system is an ideal because it allows complete customization and requires skill. It is not hack and slash unless you are incompetent. It is also not a series of button combinations; it is free form and versatile. Unfortunately, the MP implementation is an issue. Perhaps in SP it could be completely mouse-based, but in MP (unless on LAN) it could be button comboes. Oh, I don't know.


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Old 09-21-2005, 10:19 PM   #109
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Well just think about why it wouldn't be a skill based system (if you have complete freedom):

Me: Wiggles mouse back and forth (my character swings rapidly)
Opponent: Wiggles mouse back and forth (their character swings rapidly)

Who wins? The person who swings faster, leading to more swings, which means they hit more often or else their swings "beat down" the defenses of the other and they win. Or it ends up being too random.

This is what happened with Die By the Sword online multiplayer sword fighting, and the selling point of that game was the mouse based melee combat.

It sounds like a great idea, but in actual practice it just leads to spammage, not skill.

Worse yet, if there's the ability to script, then people can bind "moves" to their mouse/keys that give them an insane advantage. Why sprain your wrist when you can use a macro that just moves the mouse crazily for you? Or does a complete 360 with one click? People may take advantage and cheat their way to victory (similar to using a "rapid fire" controller to win a "button mashing" sequence in a game).

Yes, in SP the computer player isn't going to just swing back and forth as fast as possible (and a computer could swing faster and longer than a human ever could anyway so it wouldn't be fair if they did) meaning you could just spam your way to victory. Again, unless they took away your freedom and limited you in artificial ways.

Now if you were using some kind of "Lightsaber controller" (a sword handle like in Omnisashu III or MAZAN: Flash of the Blade arcade game or something like that) that wouldn't be as cheat prone because you would have to move the physical controller really fast, and you could limit that by making it heavy or cumbersome to do so, etc. Of course in a setup like that, would you require people to have the controller to play? Would they have an advantage or disadvantage over mouse/keyboard or other joystick users? That's a key question to ask if you were designing this game.


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Old 11-03-2005, 11:38 AM   #110
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Been reading this thread and noticed the comments about Raven is to busy to work on a Jedi Knight game becuase they are working on Quake 4. Quake 4 is done so how about one of you with authority tell Raven to get right on Jedi Knight 4. Ok, thanks
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Old 11-03-2005, 05:33 PM   #111
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I sure hope there is a JK 4. Won't happen soon, but imagine lightsaber dueling with the Nintendo Revolution controller, with a Quake 4 graphics engine.

I think I'll sleep until that happens.
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Old 11-03-2005, 09:22 PM   #112
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The mouse thing won't work anyways... why?

You trying to convert mouse movements on a 2D plane into a 3D game. It won't work... or it will look stupid. I like the current system. They just need to enhance it more, add a blocking option, and some counter attacks (simular to Soul Calibur's guarde break attacks)

For those unfamiliar, Guard break/impact or whatever it was called, was a special timed block, that the player had to initiat at an exact moment, which basically almost knocked the other guy down by blocking his attack... leaving them open for a quick few hits. This makes both players think before they hit...

Its also good because if someone is getting stabbed a lot and can't get away they can guarde break the attack and get a few hits in. This can't be spammed, because the only way to do it is to have someone swing at you first, and you have to get it just right. Simular to the stab thing in JKA, the only way to stab a player on the ground is to knock them down.
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Old 11-03-2005, 09:27 PM   #113
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I sure hope there is a JK 4. Won't happen soon, but imagine lightsaber dueling with the Nintendo Revolution controller, with a Quake 4 graphics engine.

I think I'll sleep until that happens.
That would rock so hard, combine that with geo modding and havok physics for the force powers. Love your avatar btw.


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Old 11-04-2005, 09:31 AM   #114
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Um... we started argueing about which engine was the best. The thread starter wanted to know if JK4 was coming out. As of now, the answer is no. The thread starter even said he didn't want a "this-engine-is-better" war, or something like that. This thread is long overdue for a closure.



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Old 11-04-2005, 05:02 PM   #115
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The answer indeed is no for now, but they will do one... some years from now. Well, whatever. This thread does need closing anyways.

PD: Thanx, Tinny!
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:52 PM   #116
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Maybe... It would be cool if they make another one. Crap, they could be making one now. Anyways- chances are if one is in development right now we won't hear about it until E3... which is a good few months aways. Man... I love E3 and TGS....
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Old 01-22-2006, 03:53 AM   #117
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* Darth Vader: This is an interesting one. Many rumours have been around for some time regarding a Jedi Knight/Outcast style game revolving around the rise of Vader and the Empire. It's all quiet on the Vader front lately, but it's possible this game may re-appear around E3 time if LucasArts make it a reality.
Found this quote in an article about "what's new for Lucasarts in 06 " at theforce.net I dont know where they got this info from but I hope it's true.


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Old 01-24-2006, 12:44 PM   #118
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Question

I remember hearing about the "Darth Vader Game" back in the day, but we all assumed what that REALLY was, was "Episode III: Revenge of the Sith" for consoles. What would they do this time, a Vader game that lets you play through the classic trilogy? That would be neat, but I wonder if the rumor poster realized the possible connection with that game that was released last year to coincide with the movie...

Now of course they billed ROTS the game as "the ultimate Jedi simulator" and people talked about it as if it were the first game with lightsaber and force powers (it wasn't of course), etc. etc. Basically they implied it was the next Jedi Knight game, but it clearly wasn't, since it didn't have first person, it wasn't set in the same era and didn't have any of the same characters or storyline, and was not released on PC.

Considering how annoying some people found that game, hopefully they can do better!

Well, anyway, if nobody has any new information on a "JK4" I think it's time to close this... until next month when the next person asks, then just send them the link to this thread to read.


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Old 01-24-2006, 02:15 PM   #119
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Any chance of stickifying this thread Mr. K?




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Old 01-24-2006, 04:19 PM   #120
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Wow, I am suprised this thread is still alive. Then again, if it wasn't, some moron would surely make another JK4 rumor thread anyway.

Until LEC decides to make a quality JK game that can compete with other big name FPS's as opposed to simply competing with other Star Wars games, this series is dead to me. Chances are against us, though, because LEC will milk the cash cow until the utters are bone dry, regardless if their products are mediocre or not.


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