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Old 02-16-2007, 08:27 PM   #1
SilentScope001
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The Third Darth Traya

Kreia/Darth Traya: "There must always be a Darth Traya, one who holds the knowledge of betrayal, who has been betrayed in heart, and will betray in turn."

This is what Kreia told Atris, the "old" Darth Traya converting the "new" Darth Traya. So why did I bring up this definition of Darth Traya? Because Kreia, the person who linked K1 to K2 and hinted at K3 said:

Darth Traya: "And, there must always be a Darth Traya. The galaxy needs its betrayers, especially in the times to come.

So there may indeed be a 3rd Darth Traya, who may betray the galaxy yet again, like Kreia and Atris. Who could that Darth Traya be? Darth Revan?


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Old 02-16-2007, 08:47 PM   #2
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Very interesting, I love your posts SilentScope. I had thought about this myself, and I definitely have to say it would not be Darth Revan. His entire adult life has been spent battling the True Sith and (attempting) to strengthen the Republic from the onslaught that is to come. If indeed Darth Revan managed to sieze the reins of the Sith Empire and betray the Republic, it would indeed be one AMAZING plot twist, but unjustified by nearly all dialogue and events in the prior games. I would feel somewhat cheated if it was indeed Darth Revan.

My vote is going to go to someone on the New Council (if indeed the story of K3 takes place with a revitalized Jedi Order). I was thinking someone like Bastila. Maybe not Bastila herself, but someone who's walked her path.

Why do I say Bastila or someone similar?

"one who holds the knowledge of betrayal, who has been betrayed in heart, and will betray in turn."

Bastila probably feels like she was betrayed by Revan, in both the light and dark sides of K1. Dark side? She was poised to be VERY powerful, the new Sith apprentice to what was going to be a very unstoppable armada. Revan leaves, suddenly there's nobody to hold the reforged Sith armies in check...and they are consumed by rival warlords. If light side, she is probably resentful to a certain degree since Revan left her abruptly.

This "betrayal" would definitely gnaw at her. Not to mention, she may feel like she was betrayed by the light side of the force when Malak tortured her since she wasn't able to fully resist. Guilt, so to speak. Taking the cannonical Revan into perspective, I'm 99% sure people followed the love path. Bastila may have loved Revan, but betrayal, especially by someone you love, is EXCEEDINGLY hard to swallow. She may still love Revan, but either be resentful towards him or his ideals (ideals since they overrode his love for her). She may not try to kill him, but to crush everything he worked for. Think of psycho girlfriends ( or even boyfriends ) in movies who constrict their spouses life so that they can spend more time together...sounds like an angry Bastila to me.

The betrayal by the light side of the force could also gnaw at her. She could see the true sith coming back, and with a combination of her dislike for Revans ideas, untrustful feelings towards the light side, and memory of what the dark side was like may cause her to betray the Republic and ally with the True Sith.

Who knows, she could belive she was acting in Revans best interests so once he had nothing left to work with (The Republic) they would be able to spend the rest of their lives together.

Is my interpretation full of holes? Most likely. My two cents, and I'd love to see what other people have to say about this.

Edit: Typo.



Last edited by Fish.Stapler; 02-16-2007 at 08:49 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 02-16-2007, 09:04 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
Bastila probably feels like she was betrayed by Revan, in both the light and dark sides of K1. Dark side? She was poised to be VERY powerful, the new Sith apprentice to what was going to be a very unstoppable armada. Revan leaves, suddenly there's nobody to hold the reforged Sith armies in check...and they are consumed by rival warlords. If light side, she is probably resentful to a certain degree since Revan left her abruptly.

This "betrayal" would definitely gnaw at her. Not to mention, she may feel like she was betrayed by the light side of the force when Malak tortured her since she wasn't able to fully resist. Guilt, so to speak. Taking the cannonical Revan into perspective, I'm 99% sure people followed the love path. Bastila may have loved Revan, but betrayal, especially by someone you love, is EXCEEDINGLY hard to swallow. She may still love Revan, but either be resentful towards him or his ideals (ideals since they overrode his love for her). She may not try to kill him, but to crush everything he worked for. Think of psycho girlfriends ( or even boyfriends ) in movies who constrict their spouses life so that they can spend more time together...sounds like an angry Bastila to me.

The betrayal by the light side of the force could also gnaw at her. She could see the true sith coming back, and with a combination of her dislike for Revans ideas, untrustful feelings towards the light side, and memory of what the dark side was like may cause her to betray the Republic and ally with the True Sith.
Seems logical. I like the idea of it being Bastila. Betrayal by someone you love can be a strong motivator.

I don't think it would be Revan simply because, according to everything we've learned about him before, he is always trying to strengthen the Republic. To turn his back on them would contradict all of what he stands for.

I'm not good at these "long posts", I'm more of a "short and to the point" kind of guy. Usually, other people get on here and post my ideas for me, and I just agree with them.


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Old 02-17-2007, 01:54 AM   #4
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I've always thought about a third Darth Traya too. I think she (Maybe he) will possibly be someone who was betrayed by many close friends and becomes a traitor (Similar to Kreia I suppose). Bastila could be a good idea, but I doubt she'll fall to the dark side again, after KOTOR. And I agree with the others, I doubt it will be Revan.
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Old 02-17-2007, 05:46 AM   #5
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It could be Revan simply on the basis of him joining the true Sith and then betraying them.


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Old 02-17-2007, 12:37 PM   #6
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Nah, it must be someone else. Maybe another survivor of the academy bombardment.

Bastila is unlikely, she had her sith days after being molested by Mr. Iron jaw. Getting her to be sithed out again would not be as surprising. Well in fact there are not alot of "sithable" characters. HK is not "sithable" obviously, a Mission/Zalbar sith would look stupid. People like a Rakata would do wonders, though unlikely, and having the pazaak champion as a sith is... *cough*

Bao-Dur? Actually its a GREAT CHOICE. His fate is not mentioned by the old hag, and his death is uncertain. He would look gentle and unsuspecting. And his technological genius would make him the perfect suspect to cook up a droid planet acompanied by New HK series droid.
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Old 02-17-2007, 01:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoiuyWiredBao-Dur
Actually its a GREAT CHOICE. His fate is not mentioned by the old hag, and his death is uncertain. He would look gentle and unsuspecting. And his technological genius would make him the perfect suspect to cook up a droid planet acompanied by New HK series droid.

Bao-Dur, you say? Hmmmm... Yeah, I get your meaning, but I can only see him doing that in three scenarios:

1: He always been a treachorus actor, and the Ebon Hawk, his playhouse. He seemed to be the good guy (such as Carth), but he was a real jerk.

2:Something... twisted him. Maybe that old Sith Hermit on Tulak's Hord Tomb on Korriban, has "teached" him. And, since he wasn't very clever on his subject, the Hermit thaught him the difficulty way, Force Storm included .

But for serious now, If he, on one of his travels throught the galaxy, have learned something, a Dark Side artifact, anything, he might as well being corrupted.

3: Maybe he turn evil because he believes he is doing the good... like Anakin, and himself too. Remember that old dialogs on the Ebon Hawk, between him and Mandalore? Where the Mandalorian asks him what was his motivation on the war, why he choosed to fight? He tells them that he had no choice, but attck to defend his homeworld and the Republic, cause the mandalorians were butcher with a twisted sense of honor. He was fightoing because it was right to.

After, when talking with him, he asks the same question that Mnadalore asked him before. Why choose to fight? Independently what's your awnser, he tells you that he wanted revenge. Rvenge on those that burned Iridonia and it's people. That's for me, the most likely scenario.


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Old 02-17-2007, 02:23 PM   #8
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Good question. I like Fish.Staplers idea in principle, but i'm a Bastila fanboy, so i'm sort of against that I also agree that it's unlikely to be Revan, and i would be disappointed if it was. Perhaps the Exile? After all, she probably felt betrayed by the Jedi Council after her exile, and i imagine she felt somewhat bitter after events on Peragus etc., so she would be as likely as anyone to betray the Republic.
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Old 02-17-2007, 02:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salzella
Good question. I like Fish.Staplers idea in principle, but i'm a Bastila fanboy, so i'm sort of against that I also agree that it's unlikely to be Revan, and i would be disappointed if it was. Perhaps the Exile? After all, she probably felt betrayed by the Jedi Council after her exile, and i imagine she felt somewhat bitter after events on Peragus etc., so she would be as likely as anyone to betray the Republic.

Just one thing: canonically, Revan is he, no she.


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Old 02-17-2007, 03:16 PM   #10
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Just one thing: canonically, Revan is he, no she.
I'm aware of that When I said 'she' i was referring to the Exile, who is canonically Female.
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Old 02-17-2007, 03:24 PM   #11
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Oh, please don't bring canon into this. Revan can be female and Exile male if people prefer. I have always referred to the exile as male, since he was in my games. I see no reason to stop doing so, just as I see no reason to "correct" people when they refer to Revan as female. Canon doesn't matter in the games, since the genders are optional - even Revan's was in TSL, so both Revan's and Exile's should be in K3 as well.


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Old 02-17-2007, 03:26 PM   #12
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I know that, buti prefer the canon genders anyway. Revan as male and Exile as female seems 'right' somehow now it's been made official. I know always think of Revan as 'he' and Exile as 'she'. To me, canon matters. Maybe it doesn't to others.
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Old 02-17-2007, 03:32 PM   #13
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Alhough I just despises Mical, that only shows up when you're female.


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Old 02-17-2007, 03:51 PM   #14
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What's wrong with Mical?
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Old 02-17-2007, 06:06 PM   #15
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^ Aside from his irritating mood, voice and attitude? Man, I would take GO-TO above him anyday.


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Old 02-17-2007, 06:13 PM   #16
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And i was thinking Darth Traya was more of a female Sith name, not a male.
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Old 02-17-2007, 07:04 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del
^ Aside from his irritating mood, voice and attitude? Man, I would take GO-TO above him anyday.
G0-T0 was such a soulless character. But we're going OT

I would say Traya only seems a female Sith name because we've already had two female Trayas. it could quite easily be a male.
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Old 02-17-2007, 07:07 PM   #18
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I think Traya's a little unisex.


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Old 02-17-2007, 07:38 PM   #19
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Alhough I just despises Mical, that only shows up when you're female.
What does?


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Old 02-17-2007, 07:53 PM   #20
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Mical....

...but he is in the male's game too
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Old 02-17-2007, 07:53 PM   #21
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^He. I hate him, and the fact he joins you. For sure he have some critical info for a better understanding of the game, but he's such an awful character...


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Old 02-17-2007, 08:03 PM   #22
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Well, I wouldn't go that far. Mical's okay, but he can be pretty annoying, both because of his blue-eyed and naive idealism, which makes even Superman look like cold and calculating tactician, and because it carries over to how he expresses himself whenever he opens his mouth. For someone who claims to understand the failures of the jedi, he sure does spout jedi propaganda rather a lot...

But I don't hate him. I just understand why others might.

And yes, the male Exile DOES remember him, meaning he was a "disciple" to the male Exile in his early days also.


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Old 02-17-2007, 11:57 PM   #23
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As the series stands, the most qualified person to take on the mantle of Darth Traya would be...the Jedi Exile.

Think about what Traya said, that "one who holds the knowledge of betrayal, who has been betrayed in heart, and will betray in turn." Think about how this applies to her:

The Exile was betrayed by Revan, believing that she was saving the Galaxy from the Mandalorian's when in fact she was being used to grow Revan's military power. The Exile was betrayed by the Jedi Order, exiled under false pretenses after willingly coming back to face their judgement. She was betrayed by Atris who wanted to use her to draw out the Sith, she was betrayed again by the Jedi Council who wanted to cut her off from the Force, and finally she was betrayed by her own mentor Kreia.

Given all that, I can easily see the Exile going dark and deciding that the galaxy can go to hell, and betraying others just like she was betrayed.
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Old 02-18-2007, 05:36 AM   #24
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^^

Meh. The exile was never betrayed in his heart, methinks. The council cast all those out, who followed Revan's crusade, so the exile's, well, exile is really just an affirmation of their early choice to exile them all. The exile is special there only because he was the only one to ever return and face judgment.

The exile was never close enough to Atris to really be betrayed in his heart by her. Atris loved the male Exile, but he didn't know it, and so never returned those feelings. And besides, even if he had, the male exile is just an option (and not even the canonical one, which is sad, if you ask me...)

The exile is never given any particular reason to trust the masters in TSL, and given how Kreia treats the exile, I doubt there is any love lost there either. So no, I wouldn't call any of that "betrayal in the heart" either.

The best candidate now is Revan or someone we haven't met yet IMHO. I don't think the writers of K3 should feel compelled to write a third Darth Traya into the plot, though - I see no overwhelming need to. Even if Kreia is right, and there must always be a Darth Traya, that doesn't mean that this person must ALWAYS be significant in the plot. Where was Darth Traya in K1, for example?


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Old 02-18-2007, 09:30 AM   #25
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I don't think the writers of K3 should feel compelled to write a third Darth Traya into the plot, though - I see no overwhelming need to.
True, but it does sound pretty interesting they left that quote there. Guess it's random speculation.

Jediphile: Actually, my DSM Exile fell to the DS after being "betrayed" by the Jedi Order during the Mandalorian Wars and after being told numberous times that he was responsible for Peragus. The Jedi Order did not fight the Mandalorians, and criticized those that did...which made my Exile pretty upset.

I think that if there should be a Darth Traya, he should be reserved for a Dark Sided Exile.


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Old 02-18-2007, 01:40 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Actually, my DSM Exile fell to the DS after being "betrayed" by the Jedi Order during the Mandalorian Wars and after being told numberous times that he was responsible for Peragus. The Jedi Order did not fight the Mandalorians, and criticized those that did...which made my Exile pretty upset.
To me that's disappointment and disagreement. The exile may thought very badly of the council, but they were consistent in how they dealt with it.

Jedi master: "We're not going to fight the Mandalorians, and if you join Revan's crusade, then we're going to cast out!"

Exile: "Well, I'm going to join Revan anyway!"

Jedi master: "Right. Then you're exiled from the jedi order!"

Exile: "OH HOW BETRAYED I AM!!!"

Nah, sorry - it doesn't add up for me. You'd have to be pretty crazy to insist that is betrayal, and even if you play the exile as DS, it still doesn't add up, since then it makes absolutely no sense to me that the exile would then return to the council to face judgment, as the exile indeed did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I think that if there should be a Darth Traya, he should be reserved for a Dark Sided Exile.
Well, you have every right to your opinion, especially if I disagree with it. My DS exile was different, however, so it would have to be optional either way.


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Old 02-18-2007, 04:00 PM   #27
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Hell, if we're throwing speculation, who says Traya has to be female? I've several male candidates for the "betrayer/betrayee" position.

Exile would be the most logical candidate. Betraying the Jedi by going to war, s/he betrays Revan by walking away and coming back to face judgement. Taking the LS path, s/he saves the Masters, only to have them betray her/him by trying to strip away the Force (or worse).



Male Revan: Is there a party he DOESN'T betray sometime? He starts off by walking out of the Jedi, then betraying the Republic, then betraying the Sith faction he started. If he flips like a =/-6 card once those memories come back, who's gonna be shocked?

Atton Rand: Speaking of flipping like a Pazaak card...Atton started out Republic, went Sith, then abandoned the Sith. He's not so much a betrayer as a deserter, though, if he gets it in his none-too-stable head that Exile betrayed him?

Mical: Now, this might get really interesting. He's seen as such a goody-two-shoes (even if Exile corrupts him) that it might actually be a shock. There might be just a little feeling of being betrayed by the Jedi, after being raised by them, believing in them, and then "Sorry, kid, not enough masters." Exile could also "betray" him, either by going DS (ruining his image of a chilhood hero), or abandoning him to go chase the True Sith. Kreia also did backstab him, and he was a spy for Carth or Cede all along, so Mikey isn't as innocent as he looks...

Under the "They'll never go there, but it'd made a hell of a mod or AU fanfic"...

Carth longest shot. There's just enough weirdness in K1 to leave you wondering if the man's lit. Knowledge of betrayal? See Saul Karath. Betrayed in his heart? Check. Again, see Karath. Sith!Dustil AND either gender Revan could add to that brew. Will betray in return? Well, to many in the Republic, I'm sure that befriending Revan counts. LSF Revan adds an additional cringe factor by putting him in bed with the indirect killer of his wife. And if he ends up at the same place as Goto, concluding that he can't save the Republic while holding to its laws?


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Old 02-18-2007, 07:35 PM   #28
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Quote:
Jedi master: "We're not going to fight the Mandalorians, and if you join Revan's crusade, then we're going to cast out!"

Exile: "Well, I'm going to join Revan anyway!"

Jedi master: "Right. Then you're exiled from the jedi order!"

Exile: "OH HOW BETRAYED I AM!!!"
Heh. I do manitan that the Exile was betrayed...after all, the Jedi Masters refused to go off to war to fight evil (especially when one consider that the goal of the Jedi is to fight off, and that made a big impression on my Exile.

But, of course that's my Exile, not yours.


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Old 02-18-2007, 10:13 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Kreia/Darth Traya: "There must always be a Darth Traya, one who holds the knowledge of betrayal, who has been betrayed in heart, and will betray in turn."
This sounds like Revan to me. Revan holds the knowledge of betrayal, he/she had been betrayed in heart (by Malak) and will betray in turn (canonically speaking, he/she betrays in turn, by helping the Jedi and the Republic defeat the Sith).

It doesn't really apply to DS Revan, but with the believable, sense making 'civil war' concept, it does apply to LS Revan, who betrays his/her allies, the Republic and the Jedi by being a DS Sith Lord in the civil war idea.


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Old 02-19-2007, 12:49 AM   #30
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Maybe atton could dress up in drag and become darth traya.
He had a pretty rough run with the original in the last one.


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Old 02-19-2007, 06:16 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by DARTH_DANZIG
Maybe atton could dress up in drag and become darth traya.
He had a pretty rough run with the original in the last one.

Hmmm, paying homage like that don't sounds like Atton. Especially if we're talking about Traya.


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Old 02-19-2007, 11:21 AM   #32
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I've been thinking that a new Traya could be the Exile and I'll describe what I think, with a canon Jedi Exile, Light Side Female. She betrayed the Jedi Order, following Revan and Malak to war and when she was exiled, I'm guessing she felt betrayed by the masters, when exiled. When she met Kreia, she tried to lure the Exile to the dark side, with her teachings. The Exile rejected all times and was betrayed by both the Jedi Masters (Who had fallen to the dark side in my opinion) and Kreia. Atris betrayed her, when she fell to the dark side. On Malachor V, the Exile tried to bring Kreia back to the light, even after everything she had done, but Kreia wouldn't return to the light side. My guess is, that after all the betrayals the Jedi Exile suffered with, she could become the next Darth Traya, but this is my opinion and you can disagree with me. I personally, think that if the Exile returns in KOTOR III, I would like her to fall to the dark side, after all she is the supposed death of the Force, unlike Revan.

Sorry, I don't usually make long posts like this and if I don't make sense, it was because I was tired.
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Old 02-19-2007, 01:43 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Meh. The exile was never betrayed in his heart, methinks. The council cast all those out, who followed Revan's crusade, so the exile's, well, exile is really just an affirmation of their early choice to exile them all. The exile is special there only because he was the only one to ever return and face judgment.
The Council never had the chance to throw any of them out of the Jedi Order; every Jedi that went to fight in the Mandalorian Wars either died or was turned to the dark side. From what I understand none of them were officially exiled from the Order, except for the Jedi Exile.

And anyways, my point wasn't that the Exile was betrayed by being exiled, she was betrayed because it was done under false pretenses and was lied to. She wasn't expelled from the Order because she had gone to war like they told her, but because they feared what she had become.

Quote:
The exile was never close enough to Atris to really be betrayed in his heart by her. Atris loved the male Exile, but he didn't know it, and so never returned those feelings. And besides, even if he had, the male exile is just an option (and not even the canonical one, which is sad, if you ask me...)
That's a matter of opinion really; the exact nature of Atris and the Exile's relationship is left up to the player through a number of dialogue options, but regardless it's clear that they knew each other well enough, and she betrayed her by using her position in the Council, and later by using her as Sith Lord bait. Just as she had felt betrayed by the Exile's choice to go to war.

Quote:
The exile is never given any particular reason to trust the masters in TSL, and given how Kreia treats the exile, I doubt there is any love lost there either. So no, I wouldn't call any of that "betrayal in the heart" either.
No reason other than they're the Exile's life-long trusted mentors? Assuming that the Exile isn't dark sided and pre-emptively kill them off, she trusted them enough that she gathered them together and was willing to help them fight the Sith, even though she was no longer a Jedi.

And again, assuming that the Exile isn't dark sided there has to have been some kind of trust between the Exile and Kreia. Their lives were literally tied together, and they needed to depend on each other for their survival. The Exile just couldn't have traveled with her, studied under her, fought alongside her for months without developing some kind of kinship.

And I don't want Revan to be Darth Traya - he already has a Sith title, one is enough as far as I'm concerned. :P
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Old 02-20-2007, 09:10 PM   #34
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i really think it is bad making a character that you create a look for in one of the prior games re-enter the game as an npc.

you had a view of what that character was like and who they were and even defined the look and gender. i think that is the main reason that the characters of the prior story line are pretty much unavailable for interaction... with the exception of the two droids (in keeping with the sw tradition eg:c3po and r2d2) and for some reason mandalore. (and a the brief interaction with carth, where he in effect says, "if you find -->her<--..." to hell with someone who decided for all the people that played revan as a she, that revan was a he... correct me if i am wrong but i don't remember as much material when playing tsl stating that revan was a male. yea, the holocron... weee... ) to me this is due to the fact that people who have created a personal story version of what happened ... all of a sudden have that portrayed in the new story all wrong.

to me the traya should be someone new. it gives them more ability to do as they wish.
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Old 04-14-2007, 07:43 AM   #35
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Call it boring but by:
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Darth Traya: "And, there must always be a Darth Traya. The galaxy needs its betrayers, especially in the times to come.
I don't believe Kreia literally means Darth Traya but is merely referring to betrayers in general, in which you'll really be spoilt for choice in K3.
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Old 04-14-2007, 11:33 AM   #36
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Who could that Darth Traya be? Darth Revan?
Unlikely, but a very good plot twist that would be!
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Old 04-14-2007, 04:04 PM   #37
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There won't be another Traya persay, but there will be those who will do anything to protect their own hide. Even help the wrong people.


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Old 04-22-2007, 01:34 PM   #38
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It seems that that quote about betrayal is the focus point of the whole series. In K1, both Revan and Bastila betrayed others. Revan betrayed Malak and the rest of the Sith, and Bastila betrayed Revan and the rest of the Jedi. In K2, Kreia and Atris both betrayed others, both the Exile. Also, it is shown that the Jedi Counsel betrayed the Exile in the past, and Kreia's apprentices betrayed her in the past also.

It is my theory that there will again be two betrayers, one light side and one dark side, in K3. It seems to follow the tradition that they have set up. It probably won't be your mentor, since that has already been done twice. Maybe your whole party will turn against you, and some main character who you are an enemy of, who seems to be the game's boss, becomes an ally.
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Old 04-22-2007, 01:57 PM   #39
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I don't think Kreia meant that there literally needs to be a Sith Lord named Darth Traya at all times. I think she meant that there always needs to be a betrayer figure in order for the Sith to continue on. I think that Darth Sidious was that figure at the time of the movies.


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Old 04-22-2007, 03:09 PM   #40
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Thats what I'm saying. Anakin was a betrayer at the time also.
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