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Old 01-19-2006, 07:46 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
Coming from someone who couldn't tell the difference between SPD and KPML-r to save his life...


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Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
Coming from someone who calls me a bigot but can't tolerate Christian opinions to save his life...
It isn't so much about not tolerating people's opinions...anyone has the right to question anyone else's opinions. Its about not tolerating people.
I may not like what you say, but i DON'T say you don't have the right to say it. I also have the right to challenge it though.
You don't like gay people, but you DO say they don't have the right to be gay. That is the fundamental difference.

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Old 01-19-2006, 11:09 AM   #42
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Coming from someone who couldn't tell the difference between SPD and KPML-r to save his life...
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Originally Posted by toms
Socialdemokratische Partei Deutchlands and KommunistParti Marxist-Leninistisk - radikalt

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Old 01-19-2006, 04:29 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
Socialdemokratische Partei Deutchlands and KommunistParti Marxist-Leninistisk - radikalt
Gee, that tells us a lot...

If knowing the difference between the two is as significant as you seem to think, why don't you enlighten us to it, instead of playing stupid games? Otherwise, the whole argument (if you can call it that) is just a waste of everyone's time.


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Old 01-19-2006, 07:52 PM   #44
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Despite not know precisely what language those are, I'd guess the first to be the Socialist Party of Germany and the second to be a radical communist marxist/leninist party.

I would guess the import of the assertion is knowing the difference between the socialist party and communist party.



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Old 01-19-2006, 10:34 PM   #45
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I'm having trouble accessing the thread. What's going on?



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Old 01-19-2006, 10:47 PM   #46
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No problem here. *Shrug*
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:11 PM   #47
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If I click the thread, it says "invalid post specified". The only way I can access this thread at all is to click on "reply" from my Control Panel. And even then, it gives me the error after I post. I can only tell what you are saying by reading below this reply box. NOT fun at all.



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Old 01-19-2006, 11:29 PM   #48
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No problem here either.

Try a different browser, or clear all your cookies and session data, and try again.


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Old 01-20-2006, 12:47 AM   #49
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Cache cleared, but this spam is the only way I can reach the thread still. As soon as I can, I'll delete this and the above post, I promise. But in the meantime, I'll have to wait for this to work itself out. All other threads work fine, this is strange...



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Old 01-20-2006, 08:13 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Despite not know precisely what language those are, I'd guess the first to be the Socialist Party of Germany and the second to be a radical communist marxist/leninist party.

I would guess the import of the assertion is knowing the difference between the socialist party and communist party.
Hole in one.

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Old 01-20-2006, 02:40 PM   #51
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The fact that I didn't know what SPD and KPML-r were means nothing. I know the difference between socialism and communism...and I disagree with both of them.

Frankly, I don't see what your point is here, ShadowTemplar, besides some lame attempt at a personal attack.


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Old 01-21-2006, 07:18 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by rccar328
The fact that I didn't know what SPD and KPML-r were means nothing. I know the difference between socialism and communism...and I disagree with both of them.

Frankly, I don't see what your point is here, ShadowTemplar, besides some lame attempt at a personal attack.
My point here is that you are in no position to criticise Keynesian economic theory, socialism, social democracy, or welfare systems, since you manifestly know next to nothing about any of them and readily conflate them with communism. That you fail to recognise the name of the second-largest party (actually the largest and the one heading the executive before the recent elections) of your home country's third-most important ally for the past 60 years is also telling...

The current American regime thrives on gullibility and willful ignorance. The regime relies on people to take no independent interest whatsoever in history, foreign affairs, (geo)politics, science, and culture, leaving them completely unable to critically analyse the 'news and views' that are being spoon-fed from TV screens and pulpits. That's not democracy. That's theocracy.

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Old 01-22-2006, 11:35 AM   #53
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All I said was that I disagree with Communism, which is inherently atheistic (it was, after all, a religious discussion). To infer from that one statement that I am criticizing 'Keynesian economic theory, socialism, social democracy, or welfare systems' makes absolutely no sense. So go ahead, prattle on with your patheticly arrogant & nonsensical artuments - I'm beginning to enjoy watching you make a fool of yourself.


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Old 01-23-2006, 08:48 AM   #54
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No, this is not a religious discussion - it's a discussion on homosexuality. Discussing religion and homosexuality is fine enough - going from homosexuality to communism trough religion isn't. My two cents.

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Old 01-23-2006, 12:30 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
All I said was that I disagree with Communism, which is inherently atheistic
Indeed, my point was that it was inherently religious...

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All I said was that I disagree with Communism, [...] To infer from that one statement that I am criticizing 'Keynesian economic theory, socialism, social democracy, or welfare systems' makes absolutely no sense.
I quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
I know the difference between socialism and communism...and I disagree with both of them.
That's the second time in what? a week? that I've caught you in an outright lie.

That's the real wonderful thing about written debates. Catching lies and backpedaling is soo much easier - and you can refute point by point the propaganda that talking heads spew in a way simply not possible in oral debates.

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Old 01-23-2006, 10:10 PM   #56
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Well... to be honest I don't see any connection between socialism or communism to homosexuality...
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Old 01-24-2006, 03:07 AM   #57
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Not to mention StaffSaberist's tech problems and homosexuality.

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Old 01-24-2006, 12:40 PM   #58
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But StaffSaberist's tech problems and communism? Oh dear... :scared:



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Old 01-25-2006, 11:33 PM   #59
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What do my ex-tech problems have to do with communism? I'm not a commie just because I blew my computer into the skies. Oh, BTW, I'm up and sprinting again.



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Old 02-03-2006, 09:12 PM   #60
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Simple and quick:

Gays deserve equal treatment. Except for those really ugly fat chicks.

Also, I beleive christianity is an out-dated paganistic religion. Don't argue with me, it's true.


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Old 02-03-2006, 09:17 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonball Fan
Also, I beleive christianity is an out-dated paganistic religion. Don't argue with me, it's true.
That's not the subject of this thread. Please don't open up that con of worms in here.



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Old 02-04-2006, 12:22 AM   #62
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*Adds DF to list of people Staffy tries to avoid*

I dislike conflict of that sort...



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Old 02-04-2006, 10:32 AM   #63
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Don't argue with me...
Telling someone not to argue with you is also defeating the whole purpose of having this particular forum in the first place.

Every one of the debates that happen here could be seriously shortened if we could all invoke the "Don't argue with me!" command. It sure would make things a lot easier...


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Old 02-04-2006, 07:57 PM   #64
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Yeah, homosexuality is wrong. Don't argue with me.

j/k...



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Old 05-05-2006, 06:14 PM   #65
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Hello.

I'm new here, but I've been reading through this thread a bit. (Actually I've been signed up for months, but I forgot that I signed up, heh).

I must say that I really enjoy threads like this, because it shows that we people CAN talk about a controversial issue without biting each other's heads off.

Here's my own two cents on the whole topic. I honestly don't care what anyone does. Hey, it's their life. They have the right to live out their life in any way they chose.

Of course, the Bible states clearly what God thinks of homosexuality, but I also know that God gave mankind the freedom of choice.

So, anyone can choose whatever lifestyle they want to live.

But, I think that people should get their priorities straight when they get after people for being "intolerant bigots". People should not treat gay people badly just because they are gay, true. But, there are many forms of bigotry.

Should someone treat someone badly because they believe in God? No. Should someone treat someone badly because of their skin color, or because they have an accent? No.

People can be "intolerant bigots" of just about anything.

But... I am probably starting to wander off the topic a bit. Pardon me, I just had to chime in with my two cents.

Also I'm not feeling well today, so I hope this post came out okay.
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Old 05-06-2006, 07:48 PM   #66
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I feel once more compelled to put forward the (seemingly rare and unusual) argument that since marriage in general is an outmoded concept, and that two people should not be entitled to any special status nor financial support from the state in return for merely co-habiting, same-sex marriages - and their more bourgeois cousins, civil partnerships - should indeed be outlawed.

Along with vanilla marriage.

And marriage 'twixt man and sports bag.

Marriage is pointless. It provides no benefit to society. In this era of quickie divorce it imparts no extra stability to a relationship. If two people decide to live together, fine... But ritual consecrations of this ilk are completely futile and neanderthal.

Secondly I feel compelled to note once again the fact that while homosexuality is not morally reprehensible, (provided both parties are consenting and neither one of those parties is ME,) it is important to remember that it is merely a form of sexual fetishism, no more "natural" than wanting to hump a sports bag, and no less "natural" than say... an unusual predeliction for oral sex.

When one recognises this, one starts to wonder why many homosexual activists feel the need to publicise their sexual preference in the mass media. Should anyone care? Should we be watching more important things? Is one's sexual preference something to bandy about? "Gay Pride" rallies. What's all that about? Is it something to be "proud" of? Let's examine the reverse. Should I be "proud" that I spend most of my time lusting after females? I mean, I understand the backlash against oppression and all that, but it's been some time since homosexuality was illegal. Time to give it a rest.

And also it's distressing that so many homosexuals define themselves by their sexual preference. We as human beings should not be defined by what arouses us sexually, we have so much more to offer the world. And so many more important things to occupy our time.

But it is in the nature of ignorant humanity to form a club or a clique, and to derive short-sighted psychological strength from a uniform, a badge... or a huge Freddy Mercury moustache and biker-hat. It's all the same drab, depressing elitism. Without something to fight for or against, I doubt the activists would be able to maintain their ever-present sence of righteous indignation... and superiority.


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Old 05-06-2006, 07:58 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Marriage is pointless. It provides no benefit to society. In this era of quickie divorce it imparts no extra stability to a relationship. If two people decide to live together, fine... But ritual consecrations of this ilk are completely futile and neanderthal.
While it's not exactly beneficial to society, here in the U.S we can get a tax break when we get married. That's the only practical reason I can think of though...



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Old 05-06-2006, 08:02 PM   #68
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Holy ****, Spider's back!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Marriage is pointless. It provides no benefit to society. In this era of quickie divorce it imparts no extra stability to a relationship. If two people decide to live together, fine... But ritual consecrations of this ilk are completely futile and neanderthal.
This seems to have no impact on the subject. It seems you're arguing that formal marriage (recognized by the state) should be done away with... that would mean that straight marriages would be done away with as well. Otherwise it's hypocritical to allow the majority of people to marry and not a minority, just because of how you feel about marriage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
it is important to remember that it is merely a form of sexual fetishism, no more "natural" than wanting to hump a sports bag, and no less "natural" than say... an unusual predeliction for oral sex.
Okay then... well I merely have a form of sexual fetishism for the female gender. As do you I assume.

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Originally Posted by Spider AL
When one recognises this, one starts to wonder why many homosexual activists feel the need to publicise their sexual preference in the mass media. Should anyone care? Should we be watching more important things? Is one's sexual preference something to bandy about? "Gay Pride" rallies. What's all that about? Is it something to be "proud" of? Let's examine the reverse. Should I be "proud" that I spend most of my time lusting after females? I mean, I understand the backlash against oppression and all that, but it's been some time since homosexuality was illegal. Time to give it a rest.
Well it's hard to fight for your civil rights when you're in the closet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
And also it's distressing that so many homosexuals define themselves by their sexual preference. We as human beings should not be defined by what arouses us sexually, we have so much more to offer the world. And so many more important things to occupy our time.
This is something I will agree with you on...
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Old 05-06-2006, 08:23 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by TK-8252:
Holy ****, Spider's back!
WHERE?

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Originally Posted by TK-8252:
that would mean that straight marriages would be done away with as well.
I said precisely that, in my original post. You missed it, apparently. "along with vanilla marriage" was the term, I believe.

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Originally Posted by TK-8252:
Okay then... well I merely have a form of sexual fetishism for the female gender. As do you I assume.
Not quite. Sexual fetishism implies a fixation on (sexualisation of) a non-genital (non sexual) portion of the anatomy, or an object. i.e: the feet, or a plush toy. Something, in other words, outside the general accepted norm. Once again, nothing WRONG in this, but nothing particularly worthy of praise or interest, either.

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Originally Posted by TK-8252:
Well it's hard to fight for your civil rights when you're in the closet.
In my country at least, homosexual people have all the rights they need. All the rights I enjoy, they enjoy. And some extra ones. Now it's time for them to stop blithering on about what they enjoy in the sack, no?


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Old 05-06-2006, 09:30 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Spider AL
I said precisely that, in my original post. You missed it, apparently. "along with vanilla marriage" was the term, I believe.
I wasn't quite sure what you meant with "vanilla" marriage... heh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
In my country at least, homosexual people have all the rights they need. All the rights I enjoy, they enjoy. And some extra ones. Now it's time for them to stop blithering on about what they enjoy in the sack, no?
Not sure what country you're in, because gays don't have any "extra" rights in the U.S. that's for sure. They can't even adopt kids in many states. How the hell does that make any friggin' sense...
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Old 05-06-2006, 10:40 PM   #71
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Not sure what country you're in, because gays don't have any "extra" rights in the U.S. that's for sure.
Look at the way I spell. Can you be in any doubt as to the nation of my origin?

Colour. Scones. Cup o' tea. FOOTBALL!!!11 (Soccer.)

Can't comment on the US. But in the UK, there have been recent rumblings regarding the preferential treatment given to sexual minorities by our law enforcement system. The concept of the "hate crime" is of dubious worth, and when employed by the judiciary it can give rise to injustice.

There have been several instances of reverse discrimination/political correctness in my own nation that have really hit the boundary of good taste. I can recall with some accuracy a recent case where an elderly couple in Lancashire were interrogated in their own home by the police for over an hour, after they complained to their local government about homosexual literature being placed in their local civic centres. Apparently the local council had reported a possible "hate crime" to the police, and the police went round to their house to strong-arm them for a while.

If activists had a right to post flyers and leaflets promoting their particular brand of fetishism, It was, in my opinion, the elderly couple's sovereign right to publically respond, expressing their disapproval.

In my nation, people who in the old days might have been considered "normal" now have fewer rights to free expression than those who might have been considered "abnormal". One cannot offend minorities now, no matter how they may offend one.

Inequality is what I disagree with, in the strongest terms. "Positive" discrimination is just that, discrimination. It was never positive, it never will be.


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Old 05-08-2006, 08:59 AM   #72
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In the UK i think they have pretty much done away with any tax breaks or other advantages you get for being married.

However I don't think homosexuals were ever camourng to get married because of tax breaks.. it was probably more about love... and the rights over dependents/next of kin that can be very important when someone is close to death.

I don't think that marriage is outmoded... and i'm very liberal... i think that stable relationships can be very beneficial to society and to children. Thats probably why they have been pushed so hard by religious leaders for so long.

The only thing that is outmoded is the narrow definition of marriage... and as far as i know gay marriages are now legal in the UK.. at least to some extent.
Lots of people claim that this somehow undermines marriage... but i don't get that at all... surely it adds MORE stable relationships which helps have a more stable society and if anything it makes marriage seem more desirable to everyone.

The main flaw with most agruments about marriage is that people erroneously link marriage with religion. Marriage is a civil status, not a religious one. It existed before judaism absorbed it into religion and it just confuses matters to think of it in religious terms.

Many people who marry never go near a church, aren't religious, are of differing religions, only go to church just for marriage etc... In that situation its daft that one religious institution should have any say over the rules that govern a practice that is far wider than itself.



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Old 05-08-2006, 04:14 PM   #73
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Quote:
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In the UK i think they have pretty much done away with any tax breaks or other advantages you get for being married.
That is not quite correct. While many tax breaks have been scrapped since 2000, there are still financial advantages to be gained from marrying, as evinced by the following three informational pages and news reports:

http://money.scotsman.com/scotsman/a...ependForce=SM_ - Paragraph 11 onwards.

http://www.pinkproducts.co.uk/civilp...hipsadvice.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4491620.stm

This, in my view, is not good. Co-habiting with someone should be a choice you make based solely on your relationship with them. Any financial perks will merely encourage marriages of convenience. On the flipside of that coin, I don't think people deserve any financial assistance for choosing to co-habit. I mean... why? Why should Mr & Mrs Joe Schmo down the street receive any monetary perks that I don't receive as a single person? Or that unmarried couples don't receive? The answer is: They shouldn't. There's no moral reason why they should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toms:
I don't think that marriage is outmoded... and i'm very liberal... i think that stable relationships can be very beneficial to society and to children.
A registrar, a priest, a rabbi or a sea-captain waving their hands over you as you snog your partner isn't going to make your relationship any more stable than it was before. Ceremony is merely that, brief ceremony, and the relationship will succeed or fail based not on the outmoded concept of "married vs. unmarried", but on whether the partners want to be with each other over an extended period of time.

Marriage is totally outdated, a ritual, a state-sanctioned ritual mind you, that encourages people to swear undying loyalty... while the same state makes it fairly simple to divorce. What does this promote, other than the regular breaking of vows? Oaths used to be important. Now they're cheapened every day of the week. Rather scrap the whole idea of marriage and stop people making fools of themselves.

Those who love each other will remain together regardless of the approval of the state or their church. Marriage is irrelevant to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toms:
The main flaw with most agruments about marriage is that people erroneously link marriage with religion. Marriage is a civil status, not a religious one. It existed before judaism absorbed it into religion and it just confuses matters to think of it in religious terms.
Marriage may be recognised by the state, but the ceremony of the thing, the rings, the socially accepted standard of one partner changing their surname... it's all derivative of religion in general, and superstitious ritual in general. Regardless of the sanction of the state, this sort of thing should not be encouraged. It's a throwback.

As regards homosexual marriage specifically, Peter Tatchell, the well-known homosexual activist, made an interesting point about gays lobbying for better treatment in the military some years ago. He said that despite a general desire for equality with straight people, perhaps homosexuals shouldn't be lobbying to join the army, since the army is an amoral, violent and outdated institution that commits war crimes with startling regularity. By campaigning for the right to join the armed forces, perhaps homosexuals were not being as forward-thinking, enlightened or LIBERAL, as they should be, considering their background.

Perhaps that argument also applies to marriage.


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Old 05-09-2006, 12:42 AM   #74
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I don't believe that... I think most people view marriage as a serious commitment... I'm certainly viewing it like that.. I don't believe in the idea of divorce, and I don't think my wife will either. We're stuck together for life, basically.

Quote:
but the ceremony of the thing, the rings, the socially accepted standard of one partner changing their surname... it's all derivative of religion in general, and superstitious ritual in general. Regardless of the sanction of the state, this sort of thing should not be encouraged. It's a throwback.
The rings date back to the Greeks, who found a thin "nerve" leading from the ring finger on the left hand to the heart. The ring is a symbol of this connection. Pretty sure it has nothing to do with religion..




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Old 05-09-2006, 12:54 AM   #75
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Ah, this appears to be incorrect. According to these sources, the Egyptians made the first wedding bands:

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Histor...Bands&id=24579

http://www.atlantisring.com/History_...ding_Rings.htm

http://www.weddinggazette.com/content/004566.shtml
(The above source corroberates your reasoning behind it, but it's actually the Egyptians, not the Greeks)

I agree that the wedding rings/bands have no bearing on religion; there's no problem in my book with atheists marrying.



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Old 05-09-2006, 02:26 AM   #76
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Before medical science discovered how the circulatory system functioned, people believed that a vein of blood ran directly from the fourth finger on the left hand to the heart. (This belief allegedly dates to the 3rd century BC in Greece.) Because of the hand-heart connection, people named the putative vein descriptively vena amori, Latin for 'the vein of love'.~wiki
Both of our sources are rather dubious.. at any rate they agree that ancient Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians believed in wedding bands used as a connection of the love vein.

Egyptians may have made the first wedding bands; that's not what I meant in my post (however ambiguous it was, I apologize), I was linking the Greek ideas behind the rings.

Regardless of your "corrections" and my rebuttals about rings, the fact remains that it is not based in religion.

We might have to continue this in private after I get my Latin book from school tomorrow.




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Old 05-09-2006, 05:13 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Windu:
I don't believe that... I think most people view marriage as a serious commitment... I'm certainly viewing it like that.. I don't believe in the idea of divorce, and I don't think my wife will either. We're stuck together for life, basically.
No offence, Mike... But many people who get married believe the same thing. Only a certain number of those people stay married.

Unfortunately, love, belief in the strength of the relationship, these things do not a lasting relationship make, necessarily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Windu:
The rings date back to the Greeks, who found a thin "nerve" leading from the ring finger on the left hand to the heart. The ring is a symbol of this connection. Pretty sure it has nothing to do with religion..
There are many guesses about the origin of the wedding/engagement ring custom, but none are relevant to my argument.

There's nothing in your two posts that contradicts my earlier statement: "Marriage may be recognised by the state, but the ceremony of the thing, the rings, the socially accepted standard of one partner changing their surname... it's all derivative of religion in general, and superstitious ritual in general."

The important point is in bold, there. And not even you can deny the cultural impact of christianity and judaism on wedding customs in both the US and the UK.


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Old 05-09-2006, 09:26 AM   #78
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I completely agree that religion has had a huge influence on [edit]marriage[/edit]. I also agree that marriage is no more valid than co-habiting or any other form of long term relationship.

However I do think that secure long term relationships are a good thing for society in general.

Those in secure long term relationships are more likely to be stable, to be employed, to pay taxes, to settle down and own homes... and its pretty conclusive that its better for kids to have more than one guardian to tend to their welfare.

I couldn't care less whether those people in long term relationships are gat or straight, married or cohabiting.. or anything ese they want to try... but i do think that there are a number of benefits for everyone if people are in such relationships. However I definately don't think that people should be forced to stay together if they don't want.. or that single mothers are the root of all eveil or anything like that.

I guess that is why states have often encoraged marriage.. throguh things like tax breaks etc.. I don't really agree with that.. but i understand why they would do it.

While it is arguable that people would (or should) get married merely because of tax breaks, i have heard it argued recently that married couples can actually end up paying more. No idea if that is true. Its certainly true that after the government introduced no-faulth "quickie" divorces the divorce rate shot up... so there were obviously a lot of people staying together just because they couldn't face the hassle of getting divorced.

I saw an interesting interview with a guy who spends his time working with troubled inner city london kids a while back that actually challenged afew of my liberal views on the subject. Because when they asked him what the one thing the government could do to cut antisocial behaviour/youth crime was he answered "bring back tax breaks for married couples". He fel that the main strain on a lot of inner city couples was financial.. and that the disapearence of stable relationships was a major factor in the instability of "kids today" ( ).



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Old 05-09-2006, 09:44 PM   #79
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No offence, Mike... But many people who get married believe the same thing. Only a certain number of those people stay married.
So we remove the institution of marriage on the grounds of some idiots who can't keep their act together?

In this stance of marriage I fully agree with the Roman Catholic church in that divorce is not an option. At least for myself and my future family.

My apologies for not noticing "superstitious ritual in general". Doh. >_<




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Old 05-10-2006, 01:35 AM   #80
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I completely agree that religion has had a huge influence on religion.
...???

Quote:
I also agree that marriage is no more valid than co-habiting or any other form of long term relationship.
Marraige is a ceremony of commitment to your bride/groom. Its meaning varies from person to person. For many people, it means a lot - it's a big step. OTOH, it means little to immigrants who wish to marry, become a citizen and divorce.

Now, the question becomes, why is it wrong for gays to marry, if that's all it is? And guess what? Putting personal opinion aside, I really don't give a **** anymore if they do. I'm not going to get involved in a debate over faiths as such debates are impossible. However, I will say this: It's not the marriage I'm opposed to. Run with that as you will.

Quote:
However I do think that secure long term relationships are a good thing for society in general.
As any sane person would think. I smile on this point; a shame it's painfully obvious. I don't see how anyone could be opposed to forming long-term relationships, business or personal.

Quote:
However I definately don't think that people should be forced to stay together if they don't want.. or that single mothers are the root of all eveil or anything like that.
Good God, no. If straight couples can divorce, so can gays. As for the "single mothers" bit, I have no issues with them, any more than single fathers, or anything like that. As for the quality of their parenting, I would judge them based on quality of parenting, not marital status, just like I wouldn't judge based on black or white skin tone. If they're a lousy parent, I'd recommend someone else. I could care less about married, single or divorced (though my opinion of a single mother would drop if I found out she took advantage of some guy then sued him about it or whatever. But that's a given).

Quote:
I guess that is why states have often encoraged marriage.. throguh things like tax breaks etc.. I don't really agree with that.. but i understand why they would do it.
Yeah, like polygamy being easier to track. (Fox reported today about a guy with nearly triple-digit wives. If I find the story on the web I'll let you know) toms, if you don't mind me asking... what issues do you have with states encouraging marriage? It seems a win-win situation to me, but I'm always interested in other opinions. I promise I won't debate you on it.

Quote:
While it is arguable that people would (or should) get married merely because of tax breaks, i have heard it argued recently that married couples can actually end up paying more. No idea if that is true. Its certainly true that after the government introduced no-faulth "quickie" divorces the divorce rate shot up... so there were obviously a lot of people staying together just because they couldn't face the hassle of getting divorced.
Maybe, or maybe just a larger load for one person - the breadwinner. OK, I don't know 100% either, but it makes sense that you'd need food to support two, maybe two cars, etc.. But, the whole "one mortgage/rent in total" and the fact that couples usually have a car already from their single days, etc. may outweigh it or lessen the costs. It's really up for grabs.

Quote:
I saw an interesting interview with a guy who spends his time working with troubled inner city london kids a while back that actually challenged afew of my liberal views on the subject. Because when they asked him what the one thing the government could do to cut antisocial behaviour/youth crime was he answered "bring back tax breaks for married couples". He fel that the main strain on a lot of inner city couples was financial.. and that the disapearence of stable relationships was a major factor in the instability of "kids today"
IIRC, there were studies that showed evidence to back this up, that couples (or single fathers, surprisingly) were less likely to produce delinquents. Again, I don't have this now, but a few hit-and-misses with Google should reveal it in time. Interesting stuff; amazing how life works.

Quote:
So we remove the institution of marriage on the grounds of some idiots who can't keep their act together?
I would agree that those who wish to abolish marriage would have a tough time explaining that to the Supreme Court.

Quote:
In this stance of marriage I fully agree with the Roman Catholic church in that divorce is not an option. At least for myself and my future family.
Depends on the circumstances. I agree that divorce on a whim is quite idiotic; however, I don't think even the Roman Catholics would not make an exception for times when it's needed.



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