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Old 02-11-2006, 03:27 PM   #41
Darth Sun_Tzu
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^That is a little off topic.

I think they might have a council, like the jedi do, but there is an official leader, like the Sith, who is the most powerful/wise.


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Old 02-12-2006, 02:47 AM   #42
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If it is started at the time of Exar Kun, I would place a friendly bet of 20 credits that Jolee would be a leader if not the leading member, that is if I had 20 credits. I really don't know of any other Jedi that were like Jolee at the time of Exar Kun.

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Old 02-13-2006, 07:03 AM   #43
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Although i'd like to see jolee again i don't think he will be in it but he could have had something to do with it b4 he crashed on Kashyyyk.


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Old 02-13-2006, 05:06 PM   #44
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That's true because he did fight Exar Kun and he said it was forty years ago. This was when he was helping Revan out. After Revan, he may have gone back to being the crotchety ole hermit, if you didn't kill him.

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Old 02-20-2006, 12:24 PM   #45
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He would have to, I don't think he would go back to the Jedi. Maybe he went somewhere that he could help.


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Old 02-20-2006, 06:04 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Darth Sun_Tzu
So i've started this thread to discuss a possible philosiphy for this 3rd group.
Is this third group supposed to follow their own goals or would it side with one of the traditional groups at some point of the story? I think the answer to this question has a *great* impact on what their philosophy *can* be. If they have their own goals (what I assume) then it's maybe easier to make that up first and then develop their philosophy.

But I think it would be a great idea to start the story as a member of a third group, because this way the PC could start neutral (without LS/DS history) and becoming LS or DS are equally believable.

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Originally Posted by Darth Sun_Tzu
My idea would be a group with a similar philosiphy to Sun Tzu. Where you look at everything as part of a whole and the greatest victory is one acheived without violence. I guess this would make them grey but leaning towards the DS.
I think it would make them DS because the way of thinking behind Sun Tzu's philosopy is rather extreme. And AFAIK it's achieving victory without war and not without violence and not because war itself is evil but because war is risky.
I find the question interesting (in TSL) why so many Jedi fell to the DS (and according to that why Sith/ Dark Jedi can be turned from the DS). It's mentioned in TSL that the Jedi teachings have become arrogant but that's not a real answer. It's just a "thought play" since the story is fictional but I suggest the answer is that the Jedi ways of thinking have become to extreme. And being extreme is the best way to encounter something that "stirs up the pattern of belief". Atris is a good example - she is a LS extremist and becomes DS without even noticing.

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Originally Posted by Darth Sun_Tzu
They would operate in the background and very few people would know of their existance, their goals would be similar to GOTO's in that all they want is stability for the Galaxy, whether is be controled by the Jedi, Sith or neither.
Tough thing that... It's easier for Goto since he's been given the order to save the republic (not the galaxy) and adds a "by any means necessary" by himself. What is stability? I find this question difficult to answer for a social system even more if LS and DS solutions are prohibited.
If Kreia told the Exile the truth (Revans choices were always his own.) then Revan is the real grey Jedi...

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Originally Posted by Darth Sun_Tzu
What do you guy think? Feel free to post any ideas of your own as well.
Ok, you asked for it. I made up a group named the "visheevushy" (bad play of words, that only Germans understand). Their apprentices don't learn answers or solutions to certain problems but they have to solve problems on their own and have to refine them on their own until the teacher doesn't find weakness in their argumentation any more. There are no good or bad solutions, only adequate or inadequate solutions. They learn martial combat and there's no restriction of its use except the judgement of the visheevushy-adept. A problem from the visheevushy's point of view is whatever he considers as one. A visheevushy will work together with others if it fits his purpose but he will always distrust other visheevushys because he knows that they have other goals.
The visheevushy-codex is rather short:

Truth is not to be given, it is to be found.
There is no evil, only decisions I don't make.
There is no good, only acting based on my decisions.
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Old 02-20-2006, 06:35 PM   #47
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That sounds a bit Sithy like. I think the attempt was made at the suggestion of a grey group; a group that see the inbetween. One is a character I created for a fanfic, Ashira-Li who is dedicated to the Jedi Order and the code but also sees the fallacy of it. She follows the code but she loves and yet she is not rebuked. Your vissheevushy codex seems to reflect more of the darker leanings of the grey.

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Old 02-20-2006, 08:14 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by JediMaster12
That sounds a bit Sithy like.
Of course it does! But why? What makes the Sith code dark and the Jedi code light? I think victory for the Sith and peace for the Jedi are the words to turn the scale, yet it's still a matter of interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster12
I think the attempt was made at the suggestion of a grey group; a group that see the inbetween. [...] Your vissheevushy codex seems to reflect more of the darker leanings of the grey.
You're welcome to improve it but I think it's not *that* bad. For a visheevushy (the name is still a bad joke) everything depends on the personal point of view and because of that he doesn't consider other people as good or evil and he doesn't consider other people's opinions as inferior *but* his own opinion is everything that matters for his decisions and therefore actions. He isn't easily manipulated but if he can't avoid it he might manipulate other people to reach his goal. It's true that the DS is as open to him as is the LS. From the Jedi/Sith point of view, some of his actions could be considered DS and some could be considered LS. But unless he sees a point in doing the typical LS/DS things he lacks ambition to do either of them.
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Old 02-21-2006, 02:19 AM   #49
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I'm not saying it's bad, it just seems to reflect a little too darkness. Then again truth is nothing but a point of view. So in a way truth is flawed and if truth is flawed then so is knowledge.

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Old 02-22-2006, 08:11 AM   #50
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I don't mind the idea, i'm now more infavour of an non-unified group, where eventhough they follow the same code, some may lean more to the DS and some the LS.


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Old 03-01-2006, 06:47 PM   #51
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Maybe you are right. If there is this third group there would been some differences and conflict. On the other hand you could end up with a division like the council in the Dark Nest Series.

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Old 03-17-2006, 01:16 PM   #52
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Here is just a crazy idea...Kreia calls your companions the "lost jedi"...would the Exile be the leader of this new group and the council he forms the new base of power that is neither light or dark?
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Old 03-17-2006, 10:27 PM   #53
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Yeah, I think their code should somewhat reflect their view that each individual has their own free-will and thus is able to define their own fate individually, kind of like existentialism.
I think, because of this, they should not have a hierarchy with designated leader(s) or any type of elitist council, but should instead reflect the principles of a more heteroarchical form of community.
However, they also acknowledge and accept the intangible/undefinable ways in which everything in the universe is interconnected and dependant upon each other, therefore also beseeching responsibility and forethought for each person's course of action within it, and the comprehension of each act's context.
Based upon these premises, they could also implore that there is no such thing as a - sorry, but forgive the pun - 'universal' truth, as everything is relative and consequently every experience is subjective too.
This is because the universe is in a constant flux, and nothing can be pinned down, or perfectly defined.
Thus the universe seems as though it is in chaos, but it is instead that through this one truth ("prepare for a paradox, time"), the only way to find reassurance in this realm is to accept that there is no assurance in anything.
This "one truth" that 'controls', or rather, watches over (omnisciently) everything, is in fact, the force, as it is what binds one and all together. Thus higher meaning has to be found through becoming attuned to, and becoming one with the force.

Here is a really, rather rough draft of how these elements could be included within their code:

In chaos there is balance
In balance there is the order of all things
In the order of things one can free themself
In freedom there is choice
In choice there is responsibility
In responsibility there is the force

Kind of ambivalent (but hey, they're grey - that's the point) but also clear and simple as to how they view existence, but also being open-ended in how these teachings can be taken through into the corporeal world in a practical fashion.
It is not the preaching of a set of moral values, but rather a philosphy, a way of thinking about the universe and life (and generally existence) within it.
The Jedi and the Sith both claim to fully understand the universe, the force's, and our roles within it (or at the very least its core/foundations) - they think they have discovered the beginnings of "the truth".
The grey would not be so self-righteous nor arrogant, only asking of the students of whom they train that they recognise, in fact, that such a thing is undiscovered (if locatable at all), and do not tell their students how to interact with the universe, but how to look internally within themselves first and foremost and make their own judgements (always questioning everything around them) as what to do (but always keep in mind that such judgements are only applicable to themself alone, and take no further meaning other than what they take from it).
And also unlike the Jedi or Sith, they do not train their students to go out into the world to literally enforce a type of ideology upon it, but let the individual make their own way in life, as they see fit, and only ask of them that they consider all perspectives, never blinding or limiting themselves to any one extreme viewpoint, as this is only seeking to achieve meaning in the universe through oversimplification and a denial of its core nature.

Now, this referance to "responsibility" is not designed to be taken in the same vein as how a Jedi might mean the word - it does not denote a sentiment of morality or conscience, but rather an acceptance as to one's own influence and role within the galaxy, no matter what the consequencies may be of any given act, light or dark, a mixture, inbetween or neither.

Like Kreia though, they do not believe that this is an excuse to do nothing (or as little as physically possible), believing in a similar principle to that of "apathy is death".

As a side note (and a superficial detail), could they not have their own spectrum (possibly unofficially though) of designated lightsaber colours? Perhaps they could use such unassigned colours as orange, bronze, silver, white, cyan, viridian, (maybe even yellow, as it is not recognised within the films) etc. That would be awesome


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or someone else is gonna cry"
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Old 03-21-2006, 11:29 AM   #54
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I wanted to expand on the idea that I presented earlier...that the Exile might be a good example of a "jedi" to lead or be a major part of this third alternate group...

After reading through some threads in this forum and other forums, I think that one of the most intriguing aspects of TSL is the unknown nature of Darth Nihilus. Many people have offered there theories trying to explain exactly what Darth Nihilus is and what it means to the TSL storyline. I think that the most interesting things can be taken directly from the game itself:

1. Nihilus was born of malachor - Kreia
2. He is an empty void in the force that always hunger - Kreia
3. He feeds on the carnage of the loss of the force - Kreia/Visas
4. With no loss of force to feed on, he will be weakened - the Exile/Kreia
5. I saw a graveyard of ships/nothing but a man - Visas after taking mask
6. Upon his death is absorbed/evaporated into darkside energy?
*did some paraphrasing

Now consider these things about the Exile:

1. As he is now, he is a product of Malachor
2. He gained strength from his loss of the force
3. He also has a void in the force/but does not "hunger"?
4. He is immune to Nihilus's attempt to feed on his force energies
5. If darkside, has the same ability to feed on the foce - is told that this is an instinct that is very difficult to learn - Kreia
*again did some paraphrasing

Looking at all these things I started to wonder if there was a deeper connection between the Exile and Nihilus. Could it be that Nihilus and the Exile are the ying and yang? The Neo and Agent Smith? In other words, polar opposites that exist in harmony when together but would destroy the balance of the universe if apart? Was Nihilus the void in the force that was created when the Exile severed his connection with the force at Malachor? If so, then did Nihilus die or join his other half? If all of this supposition is true then the Exile would be the perfect example of neutrality in the world of the force.
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Old 03-21-2006, 09:27 PM   #55
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Interesting theory...I had read somewhere else (another message board - I forget which, maybe the Lucas Arts forums) several months ago of this theory some guy had, that the Exile was actually a wraith, and was "non-existent" in the physical realm during his/her exile, but instead, dormant. In case you don't know, in some circumstances/cases, the term, 'wraith', can be used to describe a being/spirit/soul that is stuck between dimensions, that still has unfinished business in the realm of the living, and will not rest until it is finished. His theory was expanded upon much more deeply, but it is hard to remember the details now. Basically, sort of (but not exactly as clear cut) like The Crow.
Maybe these two theories could be tied somehow?


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Old 03-22-2006, 12:37 PM   #56
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Distorted great point. I think that if you really want to start examining the game you will start to see some very interesting things surfacing...the relationship between the Exile and Nihilus is just one of them. I think that it is important to look at the relationship between the other Sith Lords and the Exile as well...Sion the one that can't turn away form the force v. the Exile who did turn away from the force; Traya (either in the form of Atris or Kreia) the betrayer v. the Exile who either gives loyalty freely or demands loyalty...

The contrasts between the Exile and all of the sith lords seems to be magnified when you play LS, but are still present w/DS. How do those relationships help to define not only who the Exile is, but what he means to the KOTOR universe? And probably more importantly how does that relate to the Exile's relationship/comparison with Revan?

I think that the Exile's unique (and I say unique because I would be disappointed if this feature was used again) ability to influence an individual and either turn them LS or DS, gives him a unique responsibility. How else could you have a character that is so adept at forming force bonds but willing to sever his connection with the force...this thread has been talking about the importance of a third path - what is more important to a third path then understanding the universe w/o a connection to the force?
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Old 03-22-2006, 01:15 PM   #57
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@DI, Actually, they are seperate, the mojo is just allied with the dali for mutually beneficial purposes, and the fact that there are many similarities.
Believing that they are one in the same is quite simply Daft
We are united...In daftness

When did the Mojo form/coalesce/get moulded by the Great Green Arkleseizure?

@D_S_T actually the Exar Kun War was much, much earlier than that. It's more like 60-70 years, IIRC.



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Old 03-22-2006, 03:40 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Angelos Kumani
Distorted great point. I think that if you really want to start examining the game you will start to see some very interesting things surfacing...the relationship between the Exile and Nihilus is just one of them. I think that it is important to look at the relationship between the other Sith Lords and the Exile as well...Sion the one that can't turn away form the force v. the Exile who did turn away from the force; Traya (either in the form of Atris or Kreia) the betrayer v. the Exile who either gives loyalty freely or demands loyalty...

The contrasts between the Exile and all of the sith lords seems to be magnified when you play LS, but are still present w/DS. How do those relationships help to define not only who the Exile is, but what he means to the KOTOR universe? And probably more importantly how does that relate to the Exile's relationship/comparison with Revan?

I think that the Exile's unique (and I say unique because I would be disappointed if this feature was used again) ability to influence an individual and either turn them LS or DS, gives him a unique responsibility. How else could you have a character that is so adept at forming force bonds but willing to sever his connection with the force...this thread has been talking about the importance of a third path - what is more important to a third path then understanding the universe w/o a connection to the force?
Yes, that's true - as when the Handmaiden asks the Exile what it is like to feel the force, you can respond saying that, "I only know what its absence feels like", and go on to describe what such a lack there of, "feels" like.
Kreia also (LS) says when in the Jedi courtyard to the Masters, "[The exile] has brought truth, and you condemn it? The arrogance!", and goes on to say, "Let me show you - you, who has forever seen life through the force. See it through the eyes of the Exile". They have only witnessed life through one extreme, blinding and limiting themselves to that of which they are afraid of. I've said it some other thread (or threads, I think) that I believe a huge theme to this game is that one cannot truly understand the force and the universe unless open to all its possibilities. Hang on...*goes to find other thread with more detail in it*
Ah, here ya go (it's from the thread http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=161361 in the KotOR 2 section) - this is how I expanded upon the idea more-so:

[I think the point here would be that the Jedi council learned nothing from the Mandalorian War. They still refused to review their own teaching methods, and didn't truly address the possibility that they also played a part in the downfall of so many Jedi, with their strict, confined and limited teachings. I think a large part of this game tries to say that in order to truly know the force, one must have had full access to both the binary opposites/extremes, and all that comes inbetween them. Evil must not be guarded against in theory, as when the threat of real evil is upon you, you lack the experience to appropriately deal with it, and may even just be overcome by it. It must be prepared for instead, and appropriately so (one must see for themselves how far you can fall, and the consequences of thus). The fact that it was instead made such a taboo by the Council (as though deeply fearing it), only made it all the more intriguing to those that had an inclination to thoughts that weren't limited to the Council's restrictive/short-sighted view.
This also puts doubts in the minds of the students, of the Council's own faith in the redemptive strength of the light side.
The repression, desire for power and the consequental confusion (for the lack of being guided on how to deal with it) they would have felt when confronted with true and purest evil for the first time would have been too much to bare and subsequently, resist.
The irony is, that despite her conservative views and manner, Atris is in fact a prime example of this process. In her case (actually being one of the Council) the boundaries to such forms of "wandering thought" were self-imposed on her part, but also such principles were driven into her as a young padawan too, and she rather just follows than leads by example in this case, but also takes it to an extreme at the same time. Her decison to embrace these values so strongly are based paramountly on fear. She fears what is unknown to her (as she was taught to) and fears what may be revealed to herself of her own true nature (like how she truly wished she had had the courage to have gone to war like the Exile did, and thus scorned and despised him for doing so, but it was really herself that her loathing was stemming from; it was only delusionally redirected towards the Exile to protect herself from certain truths - many of them personal). Therefore, when she collects and hoards the numerous Sith artifacts, and left to her own devices, it is like the great taboo knowledge she has guarded herself against, and been indoctrinated to dismiss, all her life, is now within her grasp - something that such a possibility has been playing on the back of her mind all the time, but also never actually prepared for. It is overwhelming and she cannot resist the urge to learn of what many others were denied. Consequently, she falls too.
It would be like breaking free, and losing all inhibitions. It's reverse psychology - like a child is fascinated by what the cake may taste like, after they are told specifically not to even so much as touch it. Surely it must be something of true wonder to be considered so special? Something deemed so unique or significant is always tempting (especially to the young, inexperienced and naive mind). This combined with the fact that this also surely shows the Council's own lack of trust within their own students (to not fall or even be tempted) accentuates the feeling of the desire to rebel and also expand your horizons and knowledge. The Council is seen as patronizing, arrogant and self-righteous, making the feelings of wanting to "escape" their limitations the ever more seemingly founded and justified.

The thing with Visas is that she was a Sith (raised in the force as one, and yes - always first and foremost), but she has travelled with the Exile and seen many things since - all the extremities and everything inbetween, and if you choose to lightside (as is the canon way anyway) and she is influenced well enough (which is, as you say, fairly easy really) than she, despite the ways and philosophies in which she initially learnt Jedi powers (Dark Jedi/Sith mentality) and her traumatic and painful past, she has still chosen to walk the path of the Light. She can spread her experience of her own saviour to the new Jedi, who will be stronger for it, for hearing both sides of the story for a change.
]

To add a little context to that last paragraph - it was because I was supporting the case that in the cut endings (where the Exile leaves someone to train more people in the force when he/she leaves at the end of the game), in the case of Visas being left to carry out this task - she is an appropriate choice IMO to fulfill the requirements needed to bring about a new, and wiser set of students and order, trained in every aspect of the force's nature (seeing the bigger picture). Oh - and this was in referance specifically to the LS/neutral ending. I have played a game, where my character was neutral (literally, at the end - he was perfectly dead-centre in alignment, as he started as). Here is a thread, with a link to his character profile screen: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=161915
He's the character I named "Ednugari".
In the latest game I just played also, I was darkside but didn't kill any of the Jedi Masters, and still got the darkside ending - so this means that your alignment affects the overall outcome, and thus, being neutral (as my Ednugari character was) automatically gives you the LS/canon ending. So this argument for Visas as the trainer (and seeing as how influential the Exile is - thus aligning her with him) is indeed relevant.

Also, Master Vrook says you don't feel the force as a Jedi should, nor can you feel yourself, and goes on to describe you as a "Cipher" - a 'void' so to speak, or as Kreia phrases it, "A wound/echo in the force". The Exile has experienced life without the force (after feeling it with it, for so long), and has in turn become a being without the force - a vacuum. A black hole. An anti-energy.
Like you say (ying and yang): a 'negative', to a 'positive'.

This all IMO, adds further weight to your point, I believe.


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Old 03-22-2006, 07:27 PM   #59
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I agree...I have played both games (KOTOR 1 & 2) with the belief that both aspects of the focre have their strengths and to be truly powerful I would need a character that would be able to use both L/DS powers. Charisma has always been one on my most important stats because of this - and I usually tried to employ the same thinking with the NPC party members when it came to levelling up. It doesn't hurt that some have higher charismas to begin with (Visas Marr for sure, can't remember off the top of my head for any of the others)...That in combination with the fact that your companions, "the lost jedi" (according to Kreia), have also been exposed to life without the force - it's benefits and consequences - would be very appropriate to at least sit on this council of "grey" jedi, if not be a part of it's order.
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Old 03-23-2006, 05:30 AM   #60
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So what you are saying is that the third path won't be completely different to the Jedi/sith but will be a new path for the Jedi. But is Visas the best to lead the new order? If you played ls then you would have most likely redeemed Atris, who has also seen both sides of the force and she already is a master. Under your definition wouldn't this make her a good choice for the new head of the Jedi Order?


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Old 03-23-2006, 07:59 AM   #61
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^^^^^^
It depends whether ur LS or DS. When you kill atris Visas will be one of the masters and if you sacrifice Visas and redeem atris she will be one of the masters but if killed both none of them ata all.



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Old 03-23-2006, 08:32 AM   #62
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All this talk of Kreia and a grey path is making my head hurt.


Some other really awesome Fanfics: Hidden shades of grey By JasraLantill, The Adventures of Jolee Bindo By Jae Onasi[/size]
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Old 03-23-2006, 11:10 AM   #63
Angelos Kumani
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I see your point about Atris...but the game (if you do play LS) does not really make it clear what happens to Atris after her defeat to you. Sure she helps, but would she be willing to sit on a council again - I don't know...I almost think that a deeper character development for her would be to take a role where she does not lead - a role that gives her the opportunity to do the things that she started to hate herself for (i.e. not going to war), now that would be interesting (and a true convert)!

I think that one thing to remember about the jedi is that they lead by a council (the sith might have a dominant leader) and therefore Visas would not necessarily lead but at least sit on the council...

And as far as the "third path" order members go, I think it would be way to simple to say that it is just a new school of jedi or sith. But what might be appropriate to say is a new school of force sensitives that differ from the jedi/sith in the ways that have been discussed in this thread. But clearly open to any that have adopted this philosophy - force sensitive, jedi, sith - doesn't matter, what matters is their belief in how/why the force is there/should be used...I really like Distorted's mantra to describe what this "third path" is about...

In chaos there is balance
In balance there is the order of all things
In the order of things one can free themself
In freedom there is choice
In choice there is responsibility
In responsibility there is the force

I think that this sums up what this "third path" should be about - ambigous yes, but at the same time understandable.

Two more quick things...

1. We know that the republic is around for at least another 4000 years...
2. Two GOTO states in game that in order for the Republic to survive someone with force sensitivity would need to fill the power vaccuum - jedi, sith, new order? - doesn't matter as long as someone does it.
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Old 03-23-2006, 01:52 PM   #64
JediMaster12
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I'm in one of my moods so I'm playing around with people's philosophies. You don't have to like it but poetry and verse is a hobby of mine Enjoy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Distorted
In chaos there is balance
Balance comes from chaos
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Distorted
In balance there is the order of all things
From balance comes order
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Distorted
In the order of things one can free themself
From order comes one's freedom
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Distorted
In freedom there is choice
Choice, the origin of freedom
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Distorted
In choice there is responsibility
From choice comes responsibility
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Distorted
In responsibility there is the force
Responsibility breeds honor
In Honor, lives on the Force

Not one of my best but hey it's what I do in my free time and I'm an editor. I get paid to do this. This is all strictly my idea concerning the grey Jedi or this third group. If I had it my way, there would be some elements of the samurai and the whole concept of honor.

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Old 04-10-2006, 06:25 PM   #65
XI33
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Where you look at everything as part of a whole and the greatest victory is one acheived without violence. I guess this would make them grey but leaning towards the DS.



Isint this basicaly what kreia was teaching us in TSL??

There can be no grey side because the denile of good and evil is evil. If one denise good, he denise that an evil action is worng because if there is no good there is no evil, which makes any action Acceptable whether it be donating to charity or enilating an entire planet.

Evil is not the hatred of good but the denile of the existence of good its self.


Obi Wan- Anakin, the sith are evil!!!

Ankain- In my opinion the jedi are evil!!!

XI33- In my opinion you should be having a lightsaber fight not disscussing moral relativism.

EpI,II and III
EpIV,V and VI

Last edited by XI33; 04-10-2006 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 04-10-2006, 08:01 PM   #66
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How about something similar to this:

Quote:
Structure, logic, function, control. A structure cannot stand without a foundation. Logic is the foundation of function. Function is the essence of control. I am in control.
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Old 04-11-2006, 10:35 AM   #67
XI33
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The grey jedi code....

There is no dark, there is no light, there is only the force.

There is no true, there is no false, there is only the question.

There is no success, there is no failure, there is only the action.

There is no harsh, there is no lenient, there is only the reaction

Truth is a lie, there is only belief.




Obi Wan- Anakin, the sith are evil!!!

Ankain- In my opinion the jedi are evil!!!

XI33- In my opinion you should be having a lightsaber fight not disscussing moral relativism.

EpI,II and III
EpIV,V and VI
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