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Old 02-10-2006, 09:38 PM   #1
DarthLinde
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Something that's always bothered me (about Lightsabers)...

OK, lightsabers were around for over 4000 years, so how come through all that time, the Jedi and the Sith lords were the only two people smart enough to even think about using them. It's an all purpose tool being a sheild, sword, and metal cutter all in one. Yet, the jedi in all stupidity never once thought to train republic soldiers in using them. Same for the stormtroopers. Nineteen years with hardly any bother and the emperor never thought about training them to use them. If anyone knows anything about this, please tell me because it really bugs me.

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Old 02-10-2006, 10:04 PM   #2
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Literal Answer: Because George Lucas wanted them to be unique to the Jedi/Sith.

Technical guestimation: First, the Jedi and Sith clung rather tightly to the technology and schematics, and some books even say that a degree of force input is required in the creation to get all the parts perfectly melded together.

Now, look at it this way with a real world comparison: For thousands of years, swords were an extremely well used, well developed technology that dominated the battlefields of the world since their creation. Even through the advent of primitive ranged weapons, the sword held it's ground in warfare.

Then, there came guns, and other extremely powerful and effective ranged weapons that little by slowly pushed swords and bows out of the way. Why did a brand new technology so callously replace such a well developed and respected piece of weaponry?

Because any idiot, after a few days, a week at most, can be proficient with a gun, where a sword takes months to be good enough, and years if not decades to master. Once the gun came around, suddenly, an army could be supplied with disposible troops without investing hardly any time at all in their training. The soldiers no longer had to be as well fed, nor was armor necessary, or even practical anymore.

Now, look at swords compared to lightsabers. With a sword, if you slip up, you cut yourself. A lightsaber, you kill yourself. Jedi are trained from birth on how to use the lightsaber, as well as their sixth sense, so that they don't kill themselves or others by accident. They are masters, where say, an entire army would just be a bunch of guys hacking each other up.

So, I would imagine that in SW, just as with here, that Blasters are much cheaper to make, more readily accessible, and as with guns, can be handed to any given grunt to mow down an enemy.

So, while an army of lightsaber weilding bada$$es would be quite daunting, it just isn't practal, in terms of finances, time, resources, and risk.

Just my take. Sorry for the long post, but the history of the sword intrigues me.


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Old 02-13-2006, 08:25 AM   #3
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Bieng able to use a lightasaber effectively requires the instinct and physical reflexes associated with the force.

Can you imagine all the accidental dismemberments is any ole jackass was allowe dto wield a saber

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Old 02-13-2006, 01:00 PM   #4
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answer: its because the crystal needed at the center of the saber and key to its power had to be positioned exactly in allignment a feat only possible with the power of the force so it was only jedi and sith that could construct them plus they wouldn't got round handing them out to anyone on account oif the fact they were a formidable weapon

*case closed*


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Old 02-14-2006, 07:53 PM   #5
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Han Solo seemed able to wield a lightsaber, and he had no force power that we know of...

But perhaps you mean to use it with the skill required to say, block blaster bolts and have duels and such? Even in the ANH: Infinities, Han Solo is able to get the drop an Imperial Royal Guard with a Darth-Maul style saberstaff and kill him with a Saberstaff of his own.

And of course we've all seen General Grievous who used FOUR lightsabers and had no force sensitivity whatsoever as well. In the EU there are saber training droids that wield lightsabers too.


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Old 02-14-2006, 08:08 PM   #6
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The answer is simple, it takes a Jedi to create a lightsaber, and a Jedi to use a lightsaber for any use other than a dangerously long welder.
and lastly, the location of the crystals used to power the lightsabers is a closely guarded secret.



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Old 02-14-2006, 10:07 PM   #7
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Post force long post, yo

Not guarded too closely, since the Sith can also make them easily enough.

Plus, Jaden Korr makes his/her saber without any Jedi instruction, if you take Jedi Academy's storyline into account.

I don't see why lightsabers can't be machine-built. In fact, Jedi Outcast and Academy both strongly imply this is done. Furthermore, in AOTC and ROTS it's clear that the Jedi have "mass produced" generic lightsabers. Notice how they just have spares to toss to Obi-Wan and Anakin. Lucas himself may have said that they started mass producing them since Jedi were always losing their sabers. It's not like they have all sorts of time to just painstakingly construct identical lightsabers all the time, right?

10,000 Jedi Knights need at least 10,000 lightsabers, plus spares for their entire lifetimes. That's a lot of sabers! The Jedi Order ended. So how was this "secret" passed on? Was Luke the only one who knew how to build one based on what he found in Obi-Wan's hut? Perhaps the knowledge was diseminated after that point.

How did General Grievous get lightsabers identical to the ones used by Obi-Wan and Anakin? Did he steal them? Did Dooku make them all for him? Or did he construct them himself? Or were they mass produced? You can't say he got them all from Jedi he killed, since wouldn't he need some sabers to kill Jedi with in the first place? All of a sudden here is this guy and he has four lightsabers and a "collection!" Or maybe he doesn't really kill Jedi the way we think he does in "Clone Wars" (if enough of the story is just exaggerations anyway, since it would logically conflict with the movies otherwise). He may have just taken the discarded sabers off of dead Jedi that his droid armies slew, or he may have captured them from some Jedi supply dump (I would think the Jedi would make sure to keep extra sabers with them when they traveled to these planets to fight).

Computers and droids can construct things to exacting standards and crunch numbers for effects of probability (to match certain types of Jedi precognition). So I'm sure even if "aligning the crystals" is really difficult that you could get a machine to do it. The machines in SW are even intelligent and self-aware, remember, and can move much faster than a living being is constructed for that purpose.

In any case, I see a lightsaber as a piece of technology, like a blaster, not something magic. It's a tool, not the Force itself.

Much as I love lightsabers, I am inclined to dismiss these EU claims that lightsabers are magic-tech that require the Force to use and build. The movies don't seem to imply any such thing, and even in the EU you have conflicting evidences. The idea that every lightsaber is a uniquely constructed Jedi product also doesn't seem bourne out by the evidence of the films. I can see individual construction being necessary in times of great need like in Luke's case, but in the time of the Republic or even in the NJO it would seem perfectly reasonable to have them being mass produced.

As for the crystals being "hidden" I have never heard such a thing, but let's say it's true. Only the Jedi know where the one planet in the known universe lightsaber crystals come from. A planet of vast deserts, planet Arrakis, known also as... ooh, oops, wrong sci-fi mythology! Anyway, let's assume that's true. You still have the concept of "synthetic crystals." This gets brought up ad-infinatum by people that "Sith use synthetic lightsaber crystals." Well if that's the case then it proves you don't need to know where these crystals are to make the weapons. If "Sith crystals" are inferior, then why would Jedi who become Sith trade up? We should see Dooku using the supposedly "superior" blue or green blades instead of red. Or if the red blades really are superior, the Jedi should have traded up years ago. Recall that they thought the Sith were extinct for 1,000 years! There would be no reason to assume they'd be confused with Sith if they used synthetic crystals in that time. But I digress... it's all pointless anyway, because according to Shadows of the Empire Luke's green saber he uses in ROTJ is made with synthetic crystals. And last time I checked, Luke is not a Sith, and his saber is not red!

So hiding the crystals away will not stop even some random farmboy from making his own lightsaber.

Anyway, I can see why lightsabers aren't used by more beings who are non-force sensitive in the age of blasters, but I don't see supernatural explanations for why they aren't used more as being adequate. Perhaps it is somehow "Illegal" for non-Jedi to use them, but then we should see them outside the Republic's sphere of influence or during the reign of the Empire, or during the chaos that ensued after the Empire's collapse...


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Old 02-16-2006, 02:52 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Furthermore, in AOTC and ROTS it's clear that the Jedi have "mass produced" generic lightsabers. Notice how they just have spares to toss to Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Perhaps they were taken from Jedi that had already been killed? Who knows. But the fact that they had lightsabers to toss doesn't prove that they were manufactioned in a mass production facility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Lucas himself may have said that they started mass producing them since Jedi were always losing their sabers. It's not like they have all sorts of time to just painstakingly construct identical lightsabers all the time, right?
"May" have said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
10,000 Jedi Knights need at least 10,000 lightsabers, plus spares for their entire lifetimes. That's a lot of sabers! The Jedi Order ended.
The construction of a lightsaber is a part of the Trials to become a Jedi Knight (according to the EU). So the 10,000 Knights would each have to constructed at least one themselves, and that is not unreasonable. As for spares, how many did they really go through? Before the Clone Wars most Jedi were likely not in situations where they could potentially lose them very often. I can't see the majority going through more than a handful at most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So how was this "secret" passed on?
Yoda presumably. The construction of a lightsaber is a part of the Trials to become a Jedi Knight (according to the EU). And this is hinted at in the films when Vader looks at Luke's lightsaber and comments that his skills are complete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Was Luke the only one who knew how to build one based on what he found in Obi-Wan's hut?
Probably not. But such knowledge would probably be of little use to most people, especially at that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
How did General Grievous get lightsabers identical to the ones used by Obi-Wan and Anakin?
Are they identical, or merely similar? There are lots of lightsabers that are similar in appearance (Kenobi's and Vos's for example, and even Qui-Gon's).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Did he steal them?
Or looted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Did Dooku make them all for him?
Perhaps his first, or taken from a Jedi that Dooku might have killed (Syfo-Dias perhaps?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Or did he construct them himself?
Extremely unlikely, I would say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Or were they mass produced?
Also unlikely. At least not "mass".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
You can't say he got them all from Jedi he killed, since wouldn't he need some sabers to kill Jedi with in the first place?
He might not have looted his first one, but all sources claim that most/all that he had were taken from Jedi he killed. And the EU has him killing lots of Jedi. There are also lots of canon examples of Jedi being killed by simple blasters and things other than lightsabers. The Jedi are not as hard to kill as some fanboys would have us believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
All of a sudden here is this guy and he has four lightsabers and a "collection!"
From the Jedi he killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Or maybe he doesn't really kill Jedi the way we think he does in "Clone Wars" (if enough of the story is just exaggerations anyway, since it would logically conflict with the movies otherwise).
There are lots of EU sources that have him killing Jedi. I don't think this point is worth debating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
In any case, I see a lightsaber as a piece of technology, like a blaster, not something magic. It's a tool, not the Force itself.
Indeed. It is the Jedi that really makes the lightsaber such a potent weapon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Much as I love lightsabers, I am inclined to dismiss these EU claims that lightsabers are magic-tech that require the Force to use and build.
Right. Constructing a lightsaber is a rite of passage and a traditional and symbolic thing for a Jedi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The idea that every lightsaber is a uniquely constructed Jedi product also doesn't seem bourne out by the evidence of the films.
Perhaps not every one, but all Jedi Knights have constructed one of their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I can see individual construction being necessary in times of great need like in Luke's case, but in the time of the Republic or even in the NJO it would seem perfectly reasonable to have them being mass produced.
I don't think individual construction is necessary in that there is no other way, but it seems clear that it is an extremely important activity for the Jedi, and is viewed as a spiritual thing. I doubt that tradition has changed much over the centuries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Anyway, I can see why lightsabers aren't used by more beings who are non-force sensitive in the age of blasters, but I don't see supernatural explanations for why they aren't used more as being adequate.
Indeed. I think the lack of force abilities is more than enough reason for the "average joe" not to use a lightsaber. Without the Force to provide extremely percision for blade manipulation, blaster deflection and such becomes impossible. It reduces the lightsaber to a "really sharp sword", which makes it inferior and harder to use effectively than blasters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Perhaps it is somehow "Illegal" for non-Jedi to use them
I wouldn't think so. I think the limitations for non-Force users is reason enough for why they aren't more common. It is certainly conceivable, and also hinted, that there is some section of the non-Jedi population that use them, but there is no reason they should be widespread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
but then we should see them outside the Republic's sphere of influence or during the reign of the Empire, or during the chaos that ensued after the Empire's collapse...
I would say that if you are not a Jedi the last thing you want is to be carrying is a lightsaber, since it identifies you as a Jedi, and that is usually not desirable. If you are outside the Republic, odds are it is on a world that has limited law and order, or is run by less than reputable beings, such as the Hutts. Having a lightsaber identifies you as a Jedi, rightly or wrongly, and that means any anti-Republic/Jedi factions will be gunning for you. Even more so after the Empire came to power. They go out of their way to eliminate Jedi, and the lightsaber is like a big bullseye. Most of the latest post-Order 66 EU stories have Jedi ditching their lightsabers and going underground for that reason. And much of the general population views the Jedi with suspicion, especially after the Emperor's propoganda.

Having a lightsaber, and only being able to use it less than effectively, seems like a deathwish.

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Old 02-16-2006, 03:34 PM   #9
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Well, I had a set of responses to your last post but accidentally closed the window, so I'll just have to get back to you later.

Suffice to say, it seems there's plenty of evidence in the movies that lightsabers are mass produced (and if you have a problem with the term "mass" just realize I'm talking machine produced or assembly line style construction... rather than each lightsaber being built individually by a lone Jedi craftsman). The existence of duplicate lightsabers owned by different Jedi and Grievous's sabers which appear to be copies of those used by living Jedi (without any resemblance to those used by Dooku) and the convenience of having "spares" for everyone to use seems to go against the idea of all sabers being unique products.

Another argument could be made for blade color. If differences in construction or taste causes different colors, then why are all Jedi lightsabers blue or green (with the exception of Mace Windus) and why are all the Sith sabers red? I already explained about synthetic crystals so that excuse doesn't fly with me.

The EU explanation seems very contrived and a stretch of logic when viewed in light of the new evidence presented in the Prequel films (which Lucas was clearly making up as he went along, and thus all this info was stuff EU authors were not privy to before the movies came out in all cases).

It's one thing to argue that Lightsabers in the hands of non-Jedi aren't that useful in combat, and after the death of the order it might not be politically correct to use them. But that's a far cry from saying that non-Jedi are physically INCAPABLE of using or building them, which is what is being argued, using questionable sources within the EU that state you need to use the Force to build them, which is ridiculous.


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Old 02-16-2006, 05:59 PM   #10
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I would say that a non-Jedi is physically incapable of effectively using a lightsaber in combat, simply for fear of dismembering themselves.
Kurgan, maybe training sabers are mass produced, but not by machines. Obi-wan and Anakin made their sabers themselves, the fact that grievous had the same ones is merely a continuity error.



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Old 02-16-2006, 06:33 PM   #11
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I heard they were easter eggs in the movie, Luke's ROTJ hilt is there too.


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Old 02-16-2006, 07:46 PM   #12
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If thats true then Kurgan has defiantely read way too far into it as we all know that Luke constructed his own hilt.



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Old 02-17-2006, 12:42 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Justus
I heard they were easter eggs in the movie, Luke's ROTJ hilt is there too.
Just like the fact there are potato asteroids in ESB.

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Old 02-17-2006, 08:03 AM   #14
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lolz, have a good look kids. Never a better two exponents of "Force Long Posting" will you find than Kurgan and Prime



yes, the movie depiction of sabers definitely doesnt gel well with what is spouted in EU. Still, I think this is related to the practicalities of making a movie, not any conscious effort by GL to create a mythos around them...though the saber color argument is a valid one.

There are indications in the movie that a saber has a high personal value, though this could be symbolic rather than sentimental to each particular one...

Obi want to Anakin - This weapon is your life
Obi to Luke - Your father wanted to have this when you were old enough (A lie !)
Vader to Luke - I see you have constructed a new lightsaber.....indeed you are powerful as the emperor has foreseen
Little Ani identifying Qui Gon as a jedi from his "laser sword"


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Old 02-17-2006, 01:56 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineCult
If thats true then Kurgan has defiantely read way too far into it as we all know that Luke constructed his own hilt.
We know he constructed a new lightsaber (unless he just got it at a gas station, and Vader's comment was that his skills at slacking were complete!), but he may have used a pre-constructed hilt! Ha ha... there's always a way to explain things in a geekish manner. It gets much easier with practice.

If the only "trial" is the alignment of the crystal, then all Luke would need to do to "complete" this action (did Ben's ghost assign it to him?) would be to pop the crystal out and then re-align it himself.

Grievous's sabers:
Calling them easter eggs would wipe out the discrepency, however it still doesn't explain the spares. Would you feel better if the assembly line had Jedi on all sides using the Force to form the parts together, align the crystals or whatever it is that "requires" force sensitivity?

As far as non-Force sensitives being unable to use sabers effectively, that's incorrect. Grievous seems to fight with them well enough and didn't cut himseful up. Han was able to use a staff to kill an Imperial Guardsman in ANH: Infinities (granted, it's Infinities!). In the EU they have saber droids that can fight and even possibly kill low level Jedi.

I still find it hard to believe with the level of technology in the SW galaxy, they can't align crystals without the Force. I mean, c'mon, they have computers advanced enough to calculate the jump to Hyperspace which is supposed to be really complex. If it's just a matter of lining it up, why not just use a laser? Computers can calculate probability as well.

Jedi and Sith are identified with their choice of weapon yes, but that has nothing to do with if their weapon was specifically built by them or not.

People popularly associate AK-47's with terrorists, but that doesn't mean every terrorist constructs his own AK-47, or that non-terrorists can't build or use them effectively.


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Old 02-17-2006, 02:11 PM   #16
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Instead of having those two Jedi throwing Anakin and Obi-Wan a saber they should have two Jedi get slain by the droid troopers, Anakin and Obi-Wan could've taken their lightsabers... it's weird how they had two spare lightsabers, unless they were the dual-weilding types. After all, Obi-Wan was captured - and Mace gave Anakin an order to stay put.


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Old 02-17-2006, 04:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrotoy7
lolz, have a good look kids. Never a better two exponents of "Force Long Posting" will you find than Kurgan and Prime
Well, at least it is better than the "Force No Post" that is much more common in the EU forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrotoy7
yes, the movie depiction of sabers definitely doesnt gel well with what is spouted in EU. Still, I think this is related to the practicalities of making a movie, not any conscious effort by GL to create a mythos around them...
Or just a joke by the animators. They did the same with TIE fighters and X-Wings flying around the "streets" of Coruscant. That sort of thing happens everywhere (pop can missiles in Macross!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrotoy7
There are indications in the movie that a saber has a high personal value, though this could be symbolic rather than sentimental to each particular one...

Obi want to Anakin - This weapon is your life
Also, Anakin mentions that Obi-Wan is going to kill him (he he) when his lightsaber is destroyed on Geonosis. Why would Obi-Wan care if Anakin lost one if he already had 15 spares? And why didn't Anakin have a spare with him if they were so prevalent? Spares aren't quite as useful if you leave them all at home. And if some had spares with them, why didn't all the Jedi?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
however it still doesn't explain the spares.
But any story can be made up as to why those Jedi had two with them. That doesn't imply that they were mass produced extras any more than that they might be recovered from dead Jedi. I'd say that Justus' idea that these Jedi were dual wielders is a good explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
As far as non-Force sensitives being unable to use sabers effectively, that's incorrect. Grievous seems to fight with them well enough and didn't cut himseful up. Han was able to use a staff to kill an Imperial Guardsman in ANH: Infinities (granted, it's Infinities!). In the EU they have saber droids that can fight and even possibly kill low level Jedi.
I will put an obligatory "LOL" here that you would cite an Infinities source.

The droids and Grievous both have mechanical bodies and the means to control their limbs with more precision than the average organic being (IIRC Grievous has an additional droid brain, but I can't remember the source). In any event, these are definitely special cases that can't be used to necessarily prove that a regular person can be trained to use lightsabers effectively. But I agree that there isn't evidence to show that an average person could not be trained to use a lightsaber as effectively as a sword. But they will be no means be as effective as a Jedi wielding one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I still find it hard to believe with the level of technology in the SW galaxy, they can't align crystals without the Force.
I'm sure it can be done without the Force. Again, I think the construction of a lightsaber is a symbolic/traditional/spiritual/training requirement in the path to becoming a Jedi.

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Old 02-18-2006, 10:19 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I'm sure it can be done without the Force. Again, I think the construction of a lightsaber is a symbolic/traditional/spiritual/training requirement in the path to becoming a Jedi.
yes, I think this sums it up, before this discussion becomes even geeky than the EU forum allows

Kurgz, your jedi saber factory explanation is almost as weird as Yoda's midichlorian cloak(mentioned elsewhere) ... perhaps senility is creeping in ! (although you are actually younger than Pime or me)

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Old 02-18-2006, 11:12 AM   #19
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The Jedi Temple probably had a lightsaber construction/ repair workshop. Makes sense, no?
I doubt every Jedi had the time or technical inclination to bother to make or repair their own every time they needed a new one. Anakin, being the mechanical whiz he was supposed to be, probably did, so it would be customized to his personal needs.
Luke was forced in ROTJ to build his own from Obi-Wan's spare parts he found in his Tatooeen hut simply because there was nowhere else to get one at that time. Same thing with Vader.

Lightsabers probably have a commercial, non-weapon counterpart, such as a laser cutter/ welding tool.

But to use one as a weapon takes the Force. Otherwise any battle-droid with a gun will mow you down before you could ever get near enough for a swing.


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Old 02-18-2006, 01:51 PM   #20
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Well on the other hand, after purging the Jedi, Palpatine would have full access to the Jedi Temple's resources (I doubt EVERYTHING inside was destroyed, as he'd want to save some of that stuff for himself anyway). It might have been painfully simple for Vader to just waltz in and get himself all the parts, schematics, crystals, whatever he needed to keep him in lightsabers forever. Plus you have all those sabers off the dead Jedi. Just do whatever it is that it takes to turn the blade red and you're set to go.


Explaining Grievous's sabers as an easter egg is a good argument. However comparing it to the TIE Fighters in AOTC is problematic, since those things we only see out of the corner of the screen, they are TINY and barely visible. Whereas Grievous's sabers are front and center almost the whole time he's fighting. In this case I guess you'd need a confirmation by the SFX crew or Lucas to say that it was a genuine mistake/joke. You can never tell anymore, what with Lucas canonizing actor gaffes like the Stormtrooper banging his head on a door...

If a genuine mistake, you'd think he would have had ample time to fix it on the DVD since the movie really didn't change (or change much) in the process. Then again Lucas is notorious for "forgetting" to fix obvious blunders in the Star Wars movies. But then, ROTS would be the least susceptable to such problems since it was fully digital.

As far as Astrotoy's comment, I don't see why having an imagination, that isn't enslaved to the latest EU nerd-vocabulary is a sign of senility. Perhaps a sign of cynicism with regard to what gets shoveled for Star Wars lit these days, but certainly not senility! Now where's my prune juice????

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Old 02-18-2006, 02:17 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Kurgan
Well on the other hand, after purging the Jedi, Palpatine would have full access to the Jedi Temple's resources...
Good point.

As far as Grievous' saber hilts: well that just feels like digital animator laziness to me. "How many saber hilts do we already have rendered? 4?!?? Cool... exactly what we need. What? They're already seen in the movie on the heroes? Well,.. Nobody will ever notice..."
Creating a fully formed and rendered 3D object is a bit of work. Pixar is renowned for recycling objects in their movies. Saves time and money. I suspect this was all this was.
I doubt they ever suspected anyone would go out of their way to freeze frame the film to identify each saber hilt.

Lucas has stated somewhere that these movies were meant to be seen only once, in the theater. Not thousands of times, and with a frame-by-frame analysis. Very few films can withstand that type of scrutiny without exposing the seams of film-making, or continuity flaws.


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Old 02-18-2006, 03:46 PM   #22
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Good point.

As far as Grievous' saber hilts: well that just feels like digital animator laziness to me. "How many saber hilts do we already have rendered? 4?!?? Cool... exactly what we need. What? They're already seen in the movie on the heroes? Well,.. Nobody will ever notice..."
Creating a fully formed and rendered 3D object is a bit of work. Pixar is renowned for recycling objects in their movies. Saves time and money. I suspect this was all this was.
I doubt they ever suspected anyone would go out of their way to freeze frame the film to identify each saber hilt.
The thing is, they had to render those 3-D models based on the prop hilts that the actors were using, so it must have been intentional. I mean sure it somewhat makes sense that they would create CG replicas of the hilts for possible use in stunts or whatnot, but such models wouldn't need to be very detailed. Since we see the hilts several times in closeup and they appear to be identical, it makes me think it was intentional. So either it was a joke placeholder that they forgot to fix, a deliberate easter egg, or else they want to create the impression that these hilt designs are very common, which hints strongly against the idea that all lightsabers are always uniquely hand made by individual Jedi or Sith.

They obviously had to take the time to create CG hilts for Grievous, but why not make them less obviously copies of the hilts that Obi-Wan and Anakin use? Did the continuity guys get lazy and forget that Obi-Wan and Anakin got their sabers back after Grievous held them for only a few seconds? Why not use the other models "in his collection" and just duplicate them? (although I'm told those too are copies of sabers used by other living Jedi in the movie).

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Lucas has stated somewhere that these movies were meant to be seen only once, in the theater. Not thousands of times, and with a frame-by-frame analysis. Very few films can withstand that type of scrutiny without exposing the seams of film-making, or continuity flaws.
This is complete and utter BS and Lucas (assuming he actually did say that) knows it. The vast majority of people who've seen the original trilogy have seen it at home on VHS. That's Star wars history and fact. And far more people see the Star Wars prequels on DVD than see them in the theater. One can't go back to the theater to see them again now can they? And Lucas knows that the fandom is such that people saw each film multiple times in most cases, especially the last few movies. Each movie was RELEASED multiple times, so even then he fully expected people to see it multiple times in the theater. Had he not wanted people to go frame by frame, he would not have released the original trilogy MULTIPLE TIMES on LaserDisc, a format of which one of the selling points is the ability to go frame-by-frame. And he would never have released it on DVD for the same reasons if it were that important to him.

Lucas has enough money that he could have just continued to release the movies in theaters up to the present day. If they can show The Rocky Horror Picture show every year on Halloween to big crowds in cities all over the country, they can show Star Wars or Empire or whatevever. Lucas surely has more money than some fans of a crappy cult movie that came out before Star Wars!

If Lucas thinks people only watch his movies once, why does he spend so much time tweaking minute details that few people notice except by careful analysis? I grant you most people miss the changes because they DON'T go frame by frame (I'm talking the average movie-goer/DVD owner vs. the Star Wars fan). But Lucas still feels it's worth spending millions of dollars making those tweaks. So clearly he cares and that statement is nonesensical in the extreme. It really sounds like an excuse more than anything.

This might have been true with the original movies made before the advent of VCR's, so I'd check the date on the quote. It's certainly not true of the prequels. And several of the easter eggs can only be spotted if you have the widescreen version and make use of zoom, freeze frame or whatever.


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Old 02-18-2006, 05:21 PM   #23
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Well, I forget where I heard him say that... in one of the interviews or commentaries I believe.

This site seems to confirm it, so it wasn't just my imagination:
Quote:
(From about half-way down that page):

George Lucas has repeatedly admitted in interviews that he originally made the film with the intent of it being seen once in a theater and that's it.
I think he said that about the very first film released, and probably in reaction to the phenomenon of people seeing it dozens, if not hundreds of times, and making lists of flaws, and creating entire back-stories for extras only seen for a few frames or so.
Maybe he has changed his attitude in the DVD age...

But anyway, several of the main characters involved in saber fights had to be partially or fully digitally replaced at various points, so there must have been hi-rez versions of the saber hilts floating around. Either that, or they were left over from blueprint CAD/CAM files.

Who knows? I personally think it wasn't particularly intentional. They probably thought that no one would ever notice, or care very much if they did.
Or it was an Easter-Egg for the fans...
I doubt it was intended to show that there was a saber assembly line somewhere, though. I honestly don't see anyone involved with the production giving it that all much thought.

I could be wrong, though...


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Old 02-18-2006, 05:42 PM   #24
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I believe it was an easter egg.
I can understand them re-using saber hilts but i'm sure that they would have more than two saber hilts to re-use for Grievous, and they would not use the two most recognisable lightsabers in the whole movie.



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Old 02-18-2006, 06:01 PM   #25
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Just thought of something:
Grievous was handed Obi-Wan's and Anakin's sabers at the beginning of the film, on the bridge scene. They were scaled for his hands and were hi-def renders, seen in close-up when he's holding them and putting them in his cloak.. That's probably where those models came from.


Easter eggs in films are nothing new... and they pre-date the video age by quite a bit. Probably as old as moving pictures themselves. Things the film-makers do to amuse themselves, if nobody else.

One that comes to mind is the tiny R2-D2 model mounted on the body of the mothership in "Close Encounters." Before video most people would have missed that, even on multiple viewings. I know I did.
It wasn't until I got it on DVD that I caught it.

The question is: If Lucas and his crew deliberately put these things in there now, knowing obsessive ubergeeks are going to look at each and every frame in the film, one at a time?
Or do they just make a film that most people will enjoy watching a couple of times in real speed, but not question the use of each and every prop and worry about how it all fits into the continuity of the larger Expanded Universe?

Personally, my bet is on the second, or maybe a little of both.


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Old 02-18-2006, 06:21 PM   #26
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Well it is the last Star Wars movie to be made, so we need something to debate for the rest of our lives


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Old 02-18-2006, 09:30 PM   #27
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Smile last thing I'll say for awhile? heh, yeah right...

I don't think the fans can be blamed for creating backstories for characters and items only seen for a few seconds. That blame can be laid squarely on the shoulders of Lucas, who approved the creation of action figures for them and EU writers to create the CANON backstories for them!

Lucas clearly expects people to nitpick the movies, because he has his company obsessively publish the various guidebooks and maintain a databank of information on the Star Wars movies and EU. He hired a guy specifically to maintain a database of continuity (the Holocron), etc. So if it's only a minority of obsessed Star Wars geeks who go over every pixel of the movies with a microscope, then Lucas is wasting a lot of time and money with this stuff... He even hired obsessed fan Curtis Saxton to write for him!

Why release something like "Behind the Magic" or "Episode I: Insider's Guide" if Lucas doesn't care about the details and doesn't care if we care?

So really, this sort of thing was happening right from the first. He might be able to claim it about Episode IV, but beyond that, he helped created that phenomenon as much if not moreso than the most zealous fans.

It could be that this is simply a PLOT HOLE. That the production folks just didn't think about where Grievous got the lightsabers from in the first place. They just knew "he's got a lightsaber collection" and he had two sabers that he took from Obi-Wan and Anakin. And then didn't think about it. But c'mon, Lucas knows his fans by now, he surely knew they could catch this. But then he didn't seem to think too hard about Hayden/Owen/Beru's ages, Leia's memory of her mother, R2D2's jets, the Stormtrooper/clones/Boba Fett connection, the look of the Tantive IV & Deathstar and the timeline of the Deathstar developement, Obi-Wan's "memories" of Anakin, and numerous other things. And yes, yes, yes, yes, YES, I know that we fans have come up with endless apologetic retcons to explain all these things, the EU has gotten it's hand into this and in interviews (after the fact, mind you) Lucas has come up explanations for these gaps.

Sometimes it seems he really just doesn't care that much, or he takes delight in seeing fans point out the mistakes!

The Grievous thing is not the ONLY evidence for mass produced sabers, but it is a major contributing factor. I'm just piecing together the evidence, and it fits with the logic that the Jedi, going through so many lightsabers, and needing them so desperately during this time of war, would need to speed up production considerably. The other main evidences are the storylines of Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy, which necessitate some kind of mass production of lightsabers.

And don't worry about the debates, we've got the EU, which will be gaining the TV shows soon, until such time as Lucas & co. run the franchise into the ground...

Anyway, Easter Eggs are fine, but we're talking about things that appear for a split second, out of focus, out of the main camera viewpoint, disguised, etc. Seeing that Grievous has the exact hilts of Obi-Wan and Anakin doesn't take frame by frame to see. I thought they looked mightly familiar on my second or third viewing of the movie, and then when other fans pointed it out, it became obvious. And you don't have to go frame by frame either... because publicity shots and such that were all over the 'net about the movie (and not just spoiler pics, but popular pics afterward) showed Grievous with the hilts he uses.

It would be interesting to see if video games, action figures, concept art, etc. released since ROTS came out depict Grievous with any of those hilts.

So whether Lucas said it or not, I think he's totally blowing smoke here. It's a fact that Star Wars fans obsess over the movies. The EU franchise wouldn't be the cash cow it is now without a dedicated fanbase like that. And unlike some other Sci-Fi franchises (cough*Trek*cough), the expanded material is CANON!


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Old 02-18-2006, 09:47 PM   #28
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I can understand them re-using saber hilts but i'm sure that they would have more than two saber hilts to re-use for Grievous, and they would not use the two most recognisable lightsabers in the whole movie.
That's another thing. They have all these other Jedi in the movie, why not copy THEIR hilts? Or would we find, doing the frame by frame zoom analysis, that in fact ALL the Jedi use the same hilts in ROTS? That would be hilarious. And if it were simple laziness, it would still be an even stronger argument for mass production at this time.

That would be awesome in fact... but I don't think anyone's ever checked!

A place where you might be able to argue against this sort of thing would be in ANH: Special Edition. The CG X-Wings they added apparently all have the same markings as Wedge (or is it Luke? I forget) and the pilot inside is modeled on the face of one of the SFX guys. So you'd have to excuse THAT as a shortcut taken by the designers for obvious reasons...

I mean, in Star Wars they obviously use the same six stormtroopers over and over again, but at least there it's hard to tell because they all look "identical" anyway. You can assume their armor was mass produced, not that each trooper built his own individual armor as part of his training. But since we have this EU created backstory of each Jedi creating his own saber as part of his training, we wonder (it's a brain bug created from Luke building his own saber in ROTJ because he lost his in the previous movie, with the Jedi being extinct and all and apparently Yoda not having one to give him). I can more freely dismiss the line from Vader, because what we really should have seen (if the EU explanation was true) is Yoda saying "well, you've built your lightsaber, you're a Jedi!" instead of insisting that he wasn't one until he'd confronted Vader again.


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Old 02-20-2006, 03:05 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
That's another thing. They have all these other Jedi in the movie, why not copy THEIR hilts?
Because it isn't as funny?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I mean, in Star Wars they obviously use the same six stormtroopers over and over again, but at least there it's hard to tell because they all look "identical" anyway. You can assume their armor was mass produced, not that each trooper built his own individual armor as part of his training.
Because apart from the fact that it is logical, there are other sources that back this up. In the lightsaber case, there are lots of sources that indicate that they aren't mass produced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I can more freely dismiss the line from Vader, because what we really should have seen (if the EU explanation was true) is Yoda saying "well, you've built your lightsaber, you're a Jedi!" instead of insisting that he wasn't one until he'd confronted Vader again.
No, because it is one of the requirements for becoming a knight, not the only one. There was still one part of trial that remained, and in Luke's case that took the form of confronting Vader. Yoda states that Luke needs no additional training, but points out that he is not a Jedi until he confronts Vader. Luke has demonstrated the ability to construct a lightsaber, and does not need to be taught how to do so. There are several things that are required for the Trials that have been documented elsewhere. The lightsaber construction is just one part. That goes against the mass produced theory in the EU sense.

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Old 02-21-2006, 12:24 AM   #30
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Because it isn't as funny?
Since when are easter eggs required to be funny?

Quote:
Because apart from the fact that it is logical, there are other sources that back this up. In the lightsaber case, there are lots of sources that indicate that they aren't mass produced.
So it's more logical that every lightsaber is produced by hand by an individual Jedi, thus making each lightsaber completely unique, rather than that they can just produce them at will if they so chose, in whatever quantities they need? And what do you do with the sources that suggest otherwise, just ignore them? I say it can be logically inferred from the movies themselves (the prequels) and Lucas's statements about the movies. And since that's the highest source of canon...

Quote:
No, because it is one of the requirements for becoming a knight, not the only one. There was still one part of trial that remained, and in Luke's case that took the form of confronting Vader.
I'd like to see where Luke's construction of the green lightsaber was part of his training. I thought he merely built it out of necessity, since he'd lost the only other lightsaber he could get his hands on. This "well the Jedi always constructed their first lightsaber as part of their training" thing is something outside the movies, so I'd like to see where it canonically applies to Luke. Remember all this crap in the Jedi code was completely unknown to Luke or else dispensed with in his totally unusual training, done in a desperate time without the support of the usual Republican Jedi Order structures. Under the old older Luke would not have been born of a Jedi, he'd have been raised from birth (or early infancy) by the Order, been forbidden to marry, and given to a Master as a child after being instructed by Yoda. His actual experience doesn't go with that at all. We don't see or hear about any lightsaber construction in the prequels. The little kids have lightsabers and the adults have lightsabers. The adults go through lightsabers periodically. And we know there are lightsabers out there that are identical and used by different people.

Quote:
Yoda states that Luke needs no additional training, but points out that he is not a Jedi until he confronts Vader. Luke has demonstrated the ability to construct a lightsaber, and does not need to be taught how to do so.
How did Luke know how to build a lightsaber? We're not told in the movies. It wasn't some divine knowledge, however, nor was it Yoda who taught him, according to the novelisations and what I recall from SOTE. Rather he just, for his own sake, dug into Obi-Wan's old belongings and found a book on how to do it. If it was truly part of his Jedi training you'd think he would have done it under the supervision of Obi-Wan or Yoda. When do we ever see them instructing him on how to build a saber? Heck, Yoda didn't even HAVE ONE (and before you say we just didn't see it, according to the EU he gave it to Qu Rahn for safe keeping before his exile or something, which might need to be retconned via the ROTS and the deleted scenes, in which he simply loses the one he had in the Senate chambers). And IIRC the sources that describe Luke building his saber don't mention Obi-Wan's spirit instructing him either, it's all him, but he IS using schematics and things, it's not from memory or revelation. And according to SOTE, he synthesizes the crystal(s) (which flies in the face of claims that only Sith lightsabers have synthesized crystals, which I like to point out!) needed.

Quote:
There are several things that are required for the Trials that have been documented elsewhere.
Right, the Clone Wars series, it seems that the "trials" are nothing more than just some mission(s) that have something vaguely to do with various Jedi ideals. But apart from that, it all seems very contrived. Why would one of the trials be very specifically building a lightsaber. Can they use notes? Luke did. Luke didn't use the Force to build it either. According to what I recall he just used the force to help him concentrate while he worked (ROTJ Radio Drama IIRC). Like the Jedi Code, if there is a specific set of rules for the Jedi "trials" we aren't shown these.

The CW series shows us the first "construction" of a lightsaber, but it appears to be little more than a chunk of crystal and a metal fixture for a handle. Perhaps the trial is just taking it apart and putting it back together then! And in that case she (that female Jedi whose name escapes me) actually forms the parts together with the Force, which Luke clearly did NOT do, so I guess Luke failed the "trial"? In neither case do we see them construct the device from scratch. Rather, it seems more like you bought a Lightsaber Kit at the store and just sat down and snapped the pieces together and turned it on. How in-depth do you need to go to have considered you "passed"?

On the other hand, the CW series events are somewhat exaggerated, so this may not even be an accurate depiction of how it's really done (Jedi trade secrets and all, can't show it, maybe!).

Quote:
The lightsaber construction is just one part. That goes against the mass produced theory in the EU sense.
Both the lightsaber construction as part of the trials and the mass produced theory are both supported in the EU. Perhaps a harmonization attempt would be to say that building A lightsaber can be part of the trials, but that doesn't mean all lightsabers are made this way. Otherwise each Jedi would have one lightsaber, and one lightsaber only. Or else they would waste all their time building new lightsabers to replace the ones they lost in their adventure-filled careers.

The movies themselves present evidence for mass production in the prequels. The only evidence for the "lightsaber construction is a rite of passage of a Jedi" is Vader's one line to Luke. Otherwise it all comes from the EU. Since the EU material conflicts, what do you propose we do?


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Old 02-21-2006, 12:56 AM   #31
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Luke was supposed to be as mechanically inclined as Anakin, so chances are he took his own saber apart at one point to see how it worked and what it was made of.
I also assume that sabers need some maintenance and/or occasional cleaning/ tune-ups, like any mechanical/ electrical system. Obi-Wan's shorted out from being exposed to swampy water when he first landed on Naboo, and probably didn't work again until he had a chance to clean it out. So Luke would have had to pull his apart from time-to-time and clean the points and re-focus the lenses or whatever. Remember, these are weapons, and most warriors are taught from the first to be obsessive about taking care of their weapons. Almost above all else. I'm sure Obi-Wan gave Luke a run down on cleaning and caring for a saber... either on the Falcon on the trip to Alderaan... or in their hotel room on Tatooeen even before they left.

There must also be a Star Wars galaxy-spanning version of the internet, with a Google function. There must be articles available about saber construction somewhere available.

But a saber workshop/ factory in the Jedi Temple does make perfect sense. Someone needs to make "training sabers" for the younglings, as well as practice drones and the like.
Even if the Jedi make their own most of the time, they'll need a workshop where they could do it, and pull parts from the bin.
I doubt these are parts that the average, local Couriscant Radio Shack carries.


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Old 02-21-2006, 10:41 AM   #32
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Since when are easter eggs required to be funny?



So it's more logical that every lightsaber is produced by hand by an individual Jedi, thus making each lightsaber completely unique, rather than that they can...

*Snip*
Maybe you have forgotten the 'Clone Wars' cartoon, near the end of the First season, when BARRISS OFFEE is makin' her lightsaber.

You know, Luminara Undili's oh-so-insightful quote about the Heart, the Blade, and the Force?

Now, if that's not tradition, if that's not a reason why Lightsabers are force-only, then that was rather stupid. Barriss Offee went to Ilum to create her Lightsaber, so she could ascend the ranks of Jedi Knighthood. The construction of the lightsaber IS the final test to pass into Jedi Knighthood, and takes great skill and concentration. A lightsaber reflects the personality of the Jedi Knight, and the looks should correspond to the personality.

Also, according to a website devouted to Lightsabers, whose name escapes me, each Jedi had a "Clan" lightsaber as well, which is to say that one of their lightsabers is exactly the same as other Jedi in the same clan. (The group they were put into when they first became Younglings.) It stands to reason that a Jedi Master who taught the clan, most likely Yoda, would create a lightsaber for each of the Younglings when old enough, graduating from the controlled, low-intensity training saber, or perhaps they would have a stock of Clan sabers avaliable. If there is any Truth to this website, I am not sure.

Also, I do not know about you, but I don't think I could effectively deflect those laser bolts without the use of the force. The Lightsaber is an effective weapon because it allows the Jedi/Sith to create his own shield; without the force, I do not see that as a viable option. Also, as in today's world, the Gun is more effective, as the gun can reach long distances, and can keep the user from harm; the lightsaber demands close quaters combat. A non-force user simply could not wield a Lightsaber effectively enough to destroy many enemies in a few seconds; non-force users, using Lightsabers, in close quaters combat, would likely die from being flanked.



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Old 02-21-2006, 04:52 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So it's more logical that every lightsaber is produced by hand by an individual Jedi, thus making each lightsaber completely unique, rather than that they can just produce them at will if they so chose, in whatever quantities they need?
That wasn't what I said. I said that it was logical to mass produce suits of stormtrooper armour. And I said even disregarding that, there are sources that explain that that was how armour was produced. Just like there are sources that explain that Jedi Knights construct lightsabers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
And what do you do with the sources that suggest otherwise, just ignore them? I say it can be logically inferred from the movies themselves (the prequels) and Lucas's statements about the movies.
What statements are those?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I'd like to see where Luke's construction of the green lightsaber was part of his training. I thought he merely built it out of necessity, since he'd lost the only other lightsaber he could get his hands on. This "well the Jedi always constructed their first lightsaber as part of their training" thing is something outside the movies, so I'd like to see where it canonically applies to Luke.
He did do it out of necessity. It also happens to be a requirement for the Trails. I don't see what the issue is here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Remember all this crap in the Jedi code was completely unknown to Luke or else dispensed with in his totally unusual training,
Why do you say that? Are you implying that what Yoda taught Luke in the month(s) they were together is completely different from what the OR Jedi were taught? No doubt the Jedi Code was imparted to Luke in that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
We don't see or hear about any lightsaber construction in the prequels. The little kids have lightsabers and the adults have lightsabers. The adults go through lightsabers periodically.
According to the EU, apprenticies and padawans are given lightsabers by their masters. They are then required to construct one themselves in order to become a knight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
And we know there are lightsabers out there that are identical and used by different people.
Are the only identical ones those used by Grievous?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
How did Luke know how to build a lightsaber? We're not told in the movies.
Probably doesn't matter. In the end he did build one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
It wasn't some divine knowledge, however, nor was it Yoda who taught him, according to the novelisations and what I recall from SOTE.
But would Yoda have taught him had Luke remained to complete his training instead of running off? Who knows, but I would say probably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
And IIRC the sources that describe Luke building his saber don't mention Obi-Wan's spirit instructing him either, it's all him, but he IS using schematics and things, it's not from memory or revelation. And according to SOTE, he synthesizes the crystal(s) (which flies in the face of claims that only Sith lightsabers have synthesized crystals, which I like to point out!) needed.
Presumably Obi-Wan constructed his own and so no doubt designed schematics and such beforehand. If Luke used those, fine. He still had to put it together himself. And while they are similar, Obi-Wan's and Luke's lightsabers are different. And why would Kenobi have schematics if they were all mass produced in the first place? Surely the lightsaber company would keep those to themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Right, the Clone Wars series,
Well, there are sources before that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Why would one of the trials be very specifically building a lightsaber.
Because the lightsaber is the symbol of the Jedi and that weapon "is their life." And perhaps if as you say they are losing them all the time, it is important to know how to construct a replacement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Can they use notes? Luke did. Luke didn't use the Force to build it either. According to what I recall he just used the force to help him concentrate while he worked (ROTJ Radio Drama IIRC).
Obviously the way Luke did it was valid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Like the Jedi Code, if there is a specific set of rules for the Jedi "trials" we aren't shown these.
The Power of the Jedi is one source. In short...

Well, according to the EU the Trails are:

One must demostrate a facility with the Force by performing relatively
simple tasks related to the aspects of the Force to prove her ability to wield the Force in all its' forms. Things such as moving objects, mind stuff, and so on.

A test to determine a Jedi's knowledge of the Jedi Code may be as simple as
a series of questions posed to her during her trials. These include
interpretations of the Jedi Code, lessons learned from Jedi history, and
discerning actual Jedi lore from an erroneous tale, which confirms the
apprentice's knowledge base.

A Jedi apprentice cannot become a Jedi Knight unless she constructs a
lightsaber. However, a special dispensation may be granted by her testers
should their culture or heritage warrent such circumstances.

If, as most Jedi do, she does construct her lightsaber, the Jedi is tested
on her proficiency in its' handling and is often tested in a lightsaber
duel.

A Jedi must also be capable of defending herself, and must face a test in
which she calls upon the Force to defend herself, without the use of the
dark side.

A Jedi must have sound judgement, and this second to final test determines
whether or not a Jedi can make reasoned decisions in a short amount of time
withour her masters' prompting.

The final mission of all Jedi is a solo mission in which the Jedi performs a
task on her own, without the help of her Master or another Jedi. This is the
most telling trial of Knighthood--whether a Jedi can perform alone or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The CW series shows us the first "construction" of a lightsaber, but it appears to be little more than a chunk of crystal and a metal fixture for a handle. Perhaps the trial is just taking it apart and putting it back together then! And in that case she (that female Jedi whose name escapes me) actually forms the parts together with the Force, which Luke clearly did NOT do, so I guess Luke failed the "trial"? In neither case do we see them construct the device from scratch. Rather, it seems more like you bought a Lightsaber Kit at the store and just sat down and snapped the pieces together and turned it on. How in-depth do you need to go to have considered you "passed"?
Who knows. Most likely every jedi does it a bit differently, since they no doubt put something of themselves into the process. But in both those cases a functioning lightsaber was constructed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Both the lightsaber construction as part of the trials and the mass produced theory are both supported in the EU. Perhaps a harmonization attempt would be to say that building A lightsaber can be part of the trials, but that doesn't mean all lightsabers are made this way. Otherwise each Jedi would have one lightsaber, and one lightsaber only. Or else they would waste all their time building new lightsabers to replace the ones they lost in their adventure-filled careers.
I don't think they lose them as often as you think they do, but perhaps there were Jedi armourers that constructed lightsabers for training and padawans and whatnot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The movies themselves present evidence for mass production in the prequels. The only evidence for the "lightsaber construction is a rite of passage of a Jedi" is Vader's one line to Luke. Otherwise it all comes from the EU. Since the EU material conflicts, what do you propose we do?
Personally I don't think the evidence for mass production is as strong as you say, but I guess we will have to wait for Lucas to say something about it. But personally, I think what the EU explains in terms of the Jedi constructing lightsabers is sufficient.

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Old 02-21-2006, 05:02 PM   #34
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That stuff about General Grievous having duplicates of Obi-Wan and Anakin's lightsabers.

I think someone mentioned this, but he does also have Adi Gallia's lightsaber in his hand, and I think Ki-Adi, but I can't recall from the website I saw.

And if you follow the continuity of the movie, the hilts switch hands and colours throughout the duel with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's starts out in the Upper Right, if I am not mistaken, with a blue blade; Anakin's is in the bottom right, Green Blade, and I can't remember which configuration for Ki-Adi and Gallia.

Obi's then switches to being green, and Anakin's becomes Blue, while Adi Gallia's is cut from his hand. I know that Adi Gallia's switches colours from Green to blue, I believe, and Ki-Adi's becomes no where in sight.

Obi's lightsaber then switches places with Anakin's and vice versa throughout the duel. It was a technical mishap, not a Canon fact.


EDIT: The website was www.thelightsaber.com. XD




Last edited by arkodeon; 02-21-2006 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 02-22-2006, 09:30 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkodeon
EDIT: The website was www.thelightsaber.com. XD
The ANH sabers look so bad they badly need sorting out.



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Old 02-22-2006, 10:03 AM   #36
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In the Clone Wars she is shown installing a crystal into an already constructed hilt.

I think the question is if the Jedi do ALL the work on the lightsaber themselves?

For example: Do the Jedi have to learn how to work a metal lathe to mill the handle by hand? How about all the micro-electronics that have to go into something like that? Are they designing the chips and doing all the soldering themselves? Are they stitching the leather that goes on the handles themselves? Do they actually have to do the mining for the crystals themselves? How about the gem cutting once they get it?

All of these are skills that it can take years of dedicated training to master just one of them. Asking a Jedi who's purpose and training are along different paths to be a consummate technician in any of those fields in addition to all the other training they must receive seems a bit unrealistic.

My feeling is that all that type of work is relegated to droids. The Jedi in question may personally design the handle based on several existing templates using 3D holographic CAD/CAM software, and a hand-fitting, which is then sent to droids to actually produce the hilt in a small, dedicated factory right in the Temple. The jedi then picks out the crystal and installs it.

But I don't see a Jedi spending weeks in a metal shop at a lathe, then moving over to a soldering bench. That just doesn't seem like something that would be a good use of their time.

In battle, weapons get damaged, lost or destroyed all the time. Even for the Jedi. The Jedi must have a system for a quick replacement. ESPECIALLY at the height of the Clone Wars, when they are far from the galactic center most of the time.
Obviously, using a generic weapon is not ideal... but it's better than leaving the battle for 8 to 10 weeks to fly back to Couriscant to pick up parts, and craft the hilt. Then a quick jaunt to Illum to mine out the perfect crystal, then go at it with your gem-cutting tools, install it, and do all the bench testing before flying back, only to find all your clone-troopers dead.


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Last edited by edlib; 02-22-2006 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 02-22-2006, 10:39 AM   #37
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Obviously, one does not expect a Jedi to learn how to mold the parts themselves, even that would be too much to expect.

But that is not to say they do not assemble the Lightsaber themselves. Those parts made from the Droids are most likely then manipulated (By that, I mean moved around, put in different combinations) to become the Jedi's Lightsaber, and, using the force, the Crystal is delicately placed inside the hilt.



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Old 02-22-2006, 12:41 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
What statements are those?
Statements by Lucas that he intended to have a running theme of Jedi constantly losing their lightsabers. And when they lose them, they lose them for good in most cases.

Quote:
He did do it out of necessity. It also happens to be a requirement for the Trails. I don't see what the issue is here.
I'm curious where it is stated that Luke's construction of his lightsaber was part of his "trials."

Quote:
Why do you say that? Are you implying that what Yoda taught Luke in the month(s) they were together is completely different from what the OR Jedi were taught? No doubt the Jedi Code was imparted to Luke in that time.
I doubt he was taught the code. It seems his training was completely different than the OR Jedi. In fact, this would be a logical conclusion, since the supplemental material for ROTS makes such a big deal about how the Old Jedi were spending all their time focusing on the wrong things, learning stuff that just held them back, etc. Yoda would have had to refine his teaching techniques into something that cut to the heart of things to get Luke ready for his battle with Vader in a fraction of the time that these other Jedi had. He didn't have two decades to teach the kid after all. That he may have thrown in some Jedi slogans is probable enough, but if he'd taught him the Jedi code (which wouldn't make much sense with no Republic in place), then Luke would have known he couldn't marry, and other things that the EU ignored. That's the thing. The EU posits that all this Jedi Lore was "lost" and yet if Yoda taught it all to him, then it wasn't. So that makes me think Yoda just gave him the cliffs notes or re-wrote the book entirely. And it's not too much of a stretch to think he did, since he was sitting in that mud puddle for 22+ years. He'd have had plenty of time to think about it.

Quote:
According to the EU, apprenticies and padawans are given lightsabers by their masters. They are then required to construct one themselves in order to become a knight.
Is that Prequel era EU or post-ROTJ EU?

Quote:
Are the only identical ones those used by Grievous?
Those are definate examples. I'm not sure if there are others, I'd have to check honestly. Anakin's sabers all look the same (his Vader one just slightly different, adding some black elements to it mostly), but you could try to argue that that's just his style (when Obi-Wan's lightsabers look different from one another).

Quote:
Probably doesn't matter. In the end he did build one.
It's just that we need not assume because he built one, that all Jedi have to build one, or they can't become Jedi. You're assuming this is a "rule" of the Jedi Order that was true in the Old Republic as well as the New Republic. Where is the evidence for that? I don't even see where this rule is applied to Luke, it's just coincidence, and yet people assume that Luke's actions are in keeping with an unbroken tradition?

Quote:
But would Yoda have taught him had Luke remained to complete his training instead of running off? Who knows, but I would say probably.
If he'd had twenty years to train him and no worries about the Empire, perhaps. But the situation was such that he had to do something different. Clearly the Old Jedi failed, so he had to do something different and drastic with Luke. Should we assume that Luke's New Jedi were trained identically to the Old? This was were a nice bit of EU revisionism actually made a little bit of sense. We're told that so many old traditions and rules were dispensed with because the Old Jedi were infected with hubris leading to their downfall. But then again, the desire on the part of the authors for conflict within the order meant they made their own mistakes. How many of Luke's pupils fall to the Dark Side? Plenty. He's definately no Yoda (he lost 20 students in 800 years??).

Quote:
Presumably Obi-Wan constructed his own and so no doubt designed schematics and such beforehand. If Luke used those, fine. He still had to put it together himself.
So the "Jedi Trial" is just to use a snap-together Lightsaber Kit to put some parts together? I always wondered how much work actually had to be done on their part to get a passing grade. So one could just take a saber apart and put it back together again?

Quote:
And while they are similar, Obi-Wan's and Luke's lightsabers are different. And why would Kenobi have schematics if they were all mass produced in the first place? Surely the lightsaber company would keep those to themselves.
Because he feared he wouldn't have access to the machines again when forced into exile because of the Empire! If the Lightsaber company was taken over by the Empire (for obvious reasons). I realize their lightsabers are different, though they do bear a strong resemblance to one another (and Luke's saber was even changed to green at the last minute due to SFX considerations!).

Quote:
Well, there are sources before that.
Besides Clone Wars, I saw a scan of a page from one of the Tales of the Jedi (?) comics that showed a few metal parts to make a hilt and a big hunk of green crystal. Is that the source you're talking about? Or what else?

[quote]
Because the lightsaber is the symbol of the Jedi and that weapon "is their life." And perhaps if as you say they are losing them all the time, it is important to know how to construct a replacement.[quote]

Funny, I thought the 8 spoked "Bendu" wheel was the symbol of the Jedi. Is Obi-Wan's statement to Anakin a quotation from the Jedi code? I thought the Force was their life, not their weapon... Or it is important to have mass production facilities, since they don't have time to constantly be building the things uniquely by hand. Build your first one for some Jedi ritual? Fine. Building every single one every time you lose one? Pointless annoyance.

Quote:
Obviously the way Luke did it was valid.
Obviously everything Luke did was valid, because there was no Jedi Order at the time. He mostly did everything on his own with Obi-Wan and Yoda giving minimal instruction. But that's because he had no other choice, really, other than hook up with the Sith. To learn the ways of the Force he had to go it alone.

Quote:
The Power of the Jedi is one source. In short...
Which is what, novel, comic? Never heard of it (but then I haven't read everything).

Quote:
Well, according to the EU the Trails are:
But which part of the EU, that's what I'm asking. Specific sources, not just "the EU says" because I'm sure the EU says a lot of things, no offense.

Quote:
One must demostrate a facility with the Force by performing relatively
simple tasks related to the aspects of the Force to prove her ability to wield the Force in all its' forms. Things such as moving objects, mind stuff, and so on.
So Luke pulls his lightsaber from the snow. Trial #1 accomplished.

Quote:
A test to determine a Jedi's knowledge of the Jedi Code may be as simple as
a series of questions posed to her during her trials. These include
interpretations of the Jedi Code, lessons learned from Jedi history, and
discerning actual Jedi lore from an erroneous tale, which confirms the
apprentice's knowledge base.
Never seen in the movies. Trial #2 unaccomplished. Yoda cut off Luke's questions. And what questions did he ask Yoda... You know Yoda? What am I doing here? Is Darth Vader my father? Is the Dark Side stronger? And sacrifice Han and Leia? etc. Interesting stuff but what does that have to do with the Jedi code? We at least should have heard Luke making quotes from famous Jedi teachers and reciting appropriate passages. All of it must have happened off screen... oh well.

Quote:
A Jedi apprentice cannot become a Jedi Knight unless she constructs a
lightsaber. However, a special dispensation may be granted by her testers
should their culture or heritage warrent such circumstances.
How convenient! So what about all that stuff with becoming a Padawan Learner under the tutelage of a Master for ten years or so? Luke almost does this with Obi-Wan but it's backwards. First you're supposed to get your training as a child from Yoda, THEN get your Master to train you as you go on adventures and follow his lead, etc. Luke gets some intense hours (?) from Obi-Wan and Yoda each between years of schlepping around on his own.

He builds his saber after all that training. Isn't it odd that neither Obi-Wan or Yoda says one word to Luke about his saber construction either before or after? Funny if this is Trial #3...

Quote:
If, as most Jedi do, she does construct her lightsaber, the Jedi is tested
on her proficiency in its' handling and is often tested in a lightsaber
duel.
Oh right, so Luke's facing Darth Vader again has nothing to do with facing his fears or eliminating an evil, rather it's just to make sure he gets in some lightsaber practice. He never sparred with Yoda or Obi-Wan, his first duel is with the Dark Lord of the Sith himself! Fun... But you say "often," so maybe this part of the Trials isn't necessary. His finesse leaves much to be desired, but he seems to be able to fight with one well enough, since he's still alive. Trial #4 accomplished.

Quote:
A Jedi must also be capable of defending herself, and must face a test in
which she calls upon the Force to defend herself, without the use of the
dark side.
Hmmm. I guess this one goes unaccomplished in the movies. But in the novelisation he blocks Sideous's lightning for a second or two before he gets blown over. Trial #5 failed.

Quote:
A Jedi must have sound judgement, and this second to final test determines
whether or not a Jedi can make reasoned decisions in a short amount of time
withour her masters' prompting.
Not sure about this one, but maybe you could consider his rescue mission of Han Solo. Trial #6 completed?

Quote:
The final mission of all Jedi is a solo mission in which the Jedi performs a
task on her own, without the help of her Master or another Jedi. This is the
most telling trial of Knighthood--whether a Jedi can perform alone or not.
It's questionable if this is part of the Old Jedi, as for the most part the Jedi (except when forced by necessity) always go in pairs: masters with padawans in tow, or a pair of Jedi or more. Yoda seems to be the exception, as he travels into dangerous situations by himself. We never see Mace Windu's Padawan, but whenever he ventures out, he always takes Jedi with him.

Then again Palpatine's comment that "they've finally given you a solo assignment" might point to something like this. A one-time babysitter-less mission (guarding Padme? wasn't that Palpatine's suggestion?).

Anyway...

Trial #7 completed, since Luke spends most of his time alone. He defeated Darth Vader and indirectly caused the Sith's destruction and came back alive.

Quote:
Who knows. Most likely every jedi does it a bit differently, since they no doubt put something of themselves into the process. But in both those cases a functioning lightsaber was constructed.
So Mace Windu turns to his Padawan: Are you ready little kid? Good.
(quickly takes apart his saber.. his hands are a blur until it's just a pile of parts lying on the table)
Go for it.

(many hours later)
Padawan hands Mace the re-assembled saber. The Master cautiously hits the button and ignites it. "Not bad kid, you pass."


Quote:
I don't think they lose them as often as you think they do, but perhaps there were Jedi armourers that constructed lightsabers for training and padawans and whatnot.
You mean as often as Lucas thinks they do? He wrote it, not me. If that's so, then they must have a knack for building lightsabers with a certain design for certain people, or else Jedi have some choice in design or which armorer they get it built by. A plausible suggestion. It posits that there are some guys who spend their time building lightsabers for everybody else. With modern methods of construction they could cut building time considerably. If only the "crystal alignment" requires any mystical prowess a Jedi might not even be needed until the final stage of construction. So he could hire the work out to non-Jedi in theory. The Sith may have bribed some of these workers (or mind tricked them) or else they have their own secret facilities. But then with only two people to outfit, they might be able to rely on solo construction also out of necessity for secrecy.

Quote:
Personally I don't think the evidence for mass production is as strong as you say, but I guess we will have to wait for Lucas to say something about it.
Did you ever play Jedi Outcast/Academy? Tell me there's no evidence for mass production in those games's storylines.

Quote:
But personally, I think what the EU explains in terms of the Jedi constructing lightsabers is sufficient.
That's fine, but it necessitates us ignoring some evidence in favor of others. Perhaps you're right and this is the "real" explanation. The "canon answer" to a question like this is not always the most logical one (the "all stormtroopers are clones, well until a few years ago" explanation is one such example).


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Old 02-23-2006, 03:24 PM   #39
Prime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Statements by Lucas that he intended to have a running theme of Jedi constantly losing their lightsabers. And when they lose them, they lose them for good in most cases.
I can't remember those specifically, but they do ring a bell. IIRC that is a theme added as sort of a joke, wasn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I'm curious where it is stated that Luke's construction of his lightsaber was part of his "trials."
At the time, nowhere, since it is something that has only come about with the prequels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I doubt he was taught the code. It seems his training was completely different than the OR Jedi.
To clarify, the code I am refering to is:

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.


Another less common version found in a couple places...

Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.
Jedi respect all life, in any form.
Jedi serve others rather than ruling over them, for the good of the galaxy.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.


We see some of this in ESB. Yoda tells Luke, "YODA: You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." There are elements of the code in what he says, even onscreen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
That he may have thrown in some Jedi slogans is probable enough, but if he'd taught him the Jedi code (which wouldn't make much sense with no Republic in place),
Defence of the Republic itself was not a part of the Code. It was the implemention of how the Jedi of that era acted as guardians of peace. The Republic does not need to exist in order for the Code to be relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
then Luke would have known he couldn't marry, and other things that the EU ignored. That's the thing.
Part of that was because those practices were created before the knowledge of what was in the prequels was around. In any event, those were parhaps the things that Yoda felt had been too strict and rigid in the past. The also aren't directly part of the Code above anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The EU posits that all this Jedi Lore was "lost" and yet if Yoda taught it all to him, then it wasn't.
Not everything was lost. And lots was recovered and learned from others, since there were Jedi in the post-ROTJ EU that had direct connections to the OR Jedi order, as well as information sources that were found. So something as central as the Jedi Code could certainly be obtained by Luke even if it wasn't from Yoda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Is that Prequel era EU or post-ROTJ EU?
Mainly the prequel EU. However, the latest post-ROTJ EU shows the Jedi adopting many of the training practices of the old order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
It's just that we need not assume because he built one, that all Jedi have to build one, or they can't become Jedi.
I am not assuming from that. I am going by sources that specifically say that in the OR the Jedi did such a thing. Whether they could not become a Jedi without building one may have been left up the discression of a Master, but as a general rule we are told explicitly that they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
You're assuming this is a "rule" of the Jedi Order that was true in the Old Republic as well as the New Republic. Where is the evidence for that? I don't even see where this rule is applied to Luke, it's just coincidence, and yet people assume that Luke's actions are in keeping with an unbroken tradition?
I am not assuming anything. All I am saying is that a rule that we are explicitly told about that applies to the OR Jedi is fulfilled by Luke, either intentionally or unintentionally. We don't see it in ESB or ROTJ because that aspect hadn't been dreamed up yet. Regardless, when it is applied after the fact, the requirement is met.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
But the situation was such that he had to do something different. Clearly the Old Jedi failed, so he had to do something different and drastic with Luke. Should we assume that Luke's New Jedi were trained identically to the Old?
Not identically. But not identically does not mean they did everything completely differently with no carryover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
This was were a nice bit of EU revisionism actually made a little bit of sense. We're told that so many old traditions and rules were dispensed with because the Old Jedi were infected with hubris leading to their downfall. But then again, the desire on the part of the authors for conflict within the order meant they made their own mistakes. How many of Luke's pupils fall to the Dark Side? Plenty. He's definately no Yoda (he lost 20 students in 800 years??).
Interestingly the new Jedi order is starting to go back to the older ways (training young children instead of adults, reintroducing the master/apprentice system, and so on) precisely because of the problems that arose. The flaw of the old order that Yoda admits to is that it was not flexible enough to changing times. That is not to say that the rules that were in place were never valid in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So the "Jedi Trial" is just to use a snap-together Lightsaber Kit to put some parts together? I always wondered how much work actually had to be done on their part to get a passing grade. So one could just take a saber apart and put it back together again?
I don't know all the specifics, but perhaps it was to make a unique lightsaber. Apart from the potential Grievous easter egg theory, that would explain why all the lightsabers are at least slightly different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Besides Clone Wars, I saw a scan of a page from one of the Tales of the Jedi (?) comics that showed a few metal parts to make a hilt and a big hunk of green crystal. Is that the source you're talking about? Or what else?
Various novels and comics. Corran Horn made his from a swoop handle, IIRC. Another OR Jedi actually made one with a handle of wood. Even KOTOR has you construct your own lightsaber as a part of your training. In general, there are many examples that predate the Clone Wars series. It is merely the latest.

[QUOTE=Kurgan][quote]
Because the lightsaber is the symbol of the Jedi and that weapon "is their life." And perhaps if as you say they are losing them all the time, it is important to know how to construct a replacement.
Quote:

Is Obi-Wan's statement to Anakin a quotation from the Jedi code? I thought the Force was their life, not their weapon...
Not the Code, no. But he did say, "This weapon is your life".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Or it is important to have mass production facilities, since they don't have time to constantly be building the things uniquely by hand. Build your first one for some Jedi ritual? Fine. Building every single one every time you lose one? Pointless annoyance.
The Jedi did lots of things for pointless annoyance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Which is what, novel, comic? Never heard of it (but then I haven't read everything).
Sourcebook.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
But which part of the EU, that's what I'm asking. Specific sources, not just "the EU says" because I'm sure the EU says a lot of things, no offense.
I can't remember specific books, but I have seen it in one of the novels, as well as comics and KOTOR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So Luke pulls his lightsaber from the snow. Trial #1 accomplished.
Which is only part of it. Things such as sensing are also a part of it. But yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Never seen in the movies. Trial #2 unaccomplished. Yoda cut off Luke's questions. And what questions did he ask Yoda... You know Yoda? What am I doing here? Is Darth Vader my father? Is the Dark Side stronger? And sacrifice Han and Leia? etc.
You have it backwards. The Master asks the student questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
He builds his saber after all that training. Isn't it odd that neither Obi-Wan or Yoda says one word to Luke about his saber construction either before or after? Funny if this is Trial #3...
Again, this came about at the time of the prequels, so of course we don't see it in the OT specifically. Even so, Luke does meet that requirement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Oh right, so Luke's facing Darth Vader again has nothing to do with facing his fears or eliminating an evil, rather it's just to make sure he gets in some lightsaber practice. Trial #4 accomplished.
Whether this is what counted as duel training, I don't know. In any event, one does not prevent the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Hmmm. I guess this one goes unaccomplished in the movies. But in the novelisation he blocks Sideous's lightning for a second or two before he gets blown over. Trial #5 failed.
I'm not sure what using the Force to defend oneself really entails, and whether using the force you guide your lightsaber would be sufficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
It's questionable if this is part of the Old Jedi, as for the most part the Jedi (except when forced by necessity) always go in pairs: masters with padawans in tow, or a pair of Jedi or more. Yoda seems to be the exception, as he travels into dangerous situations by himself. We never see Mace Windu's Padawan, but whenever he ventures out, he always takes Jedi with him.
The Jedi only needs to complete such a mission, and does not necessarily mean that is the normal procedure for Jedi knights. But we do see Jedi working on their own from time to time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Did you ever play Jedi Outcast/Academy? Tell me there's no evidence for mass production in those games's storylines.
What are you refering to?

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Old 03-01-2006, 11:05 AM   #40
Astrotoy7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
...Now where's my prune juice????
lolz... thats the warriors drink !! [/ST TNG]

yes, lightsabers.... my fave was Corram Horn's, tis silver, its 'blade' can be adjusted in length, and its hilt was made from a speeder bike handlebar shaft = awesomez. He has been one of my fave of the new jedi, too bad they are turning him into a patsy in the Dark Nest books

mtfbwya


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