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Old 03-10-2006, 05:59 PM   #121
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@Samuel Dravis-
It's not just one biologist, it's biologists in general



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Old 03-10-2006, 06:02 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
@Samuel Dravis-
It's not just one biologist, it's biologists in general
So you somehow know their opinions because...? Have they collectively told you? Do you have a study or some statistics on how many of biologists recognize fetuses as alive or not, or are you, uh, 'just saying'?


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Old 03-10-2006, 06:03 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I'm interested in knowing exactly why you left out the qualifications. Surely, those are part of the definition? In particular, these points:
Umm... because I posted the link to it?

I posted how it defines life... if you wanted to know more that's why the link was there.
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Old 03-10-2006, 06:04 PM   #124
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It's not a matter of their opinions, it's the consensus that appears in things like biology text books and such.



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Old 03-10-2006, 06:05 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
It's not a matter of their opinions, it's the consensus that appears in things like biology text books and such.
So the entire collective of biologists wrote any specific biology book? I seem to remember them being attributed to a specific author...

This is rediculous. Either come up with something real, like statistics, that supports your supposition or be ignored.


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Old 03-10-2006, 06:20 PM   #126
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It's the consensus among biologists. Also, they didn't all write a book, I honestly hope that you said that as a joke or to make some futile attempt at making a point here.



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Old 03-10-2006, 06:54 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
It has an independent circulatory system and processes food itself, by necessity.
Your own link disagrees with you.

Quote:
The mother's body supplies the fetus with oxygen, nutrients, and antibodies, removes the fetus's carbon dioxide and other metabolic waste materials, and helps regulate fetal growth and physiology by circulating hormones.
It's not self-sustaining, it requires the mother's assitance in it's own growth. Without the mother it'll never become a full-fledged human life.

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Originally Posted by Joeİ
I don't have time to argue this point to the depth that it needs to be. But you are only repeating what you read or are told. It only took a logical eye to see flaws in those 5 laws of life that you posted.
Except as it is, there are no flaws. Naturally every rule has exceptions, especially ones dealing with a complex issue such as life.


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Old 03-10-2006, 07:03 PM   #128
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It's the consensus among biologists.
I honestly hope you have something reasonable that supports your view.

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Originally Posted by Insane Sith
Your own link disagrees with you.

It's not self-sustaining, it requires the mother's assitance in it's own growth. Without the mother it'll never become a full-fledged human life.
What I said was that it does not require the mother to process the nutrients. You might say, that since you cannot make nutrients into edible food for yourself, you therefore not alive. Is that true? You depend on the plants to process the energy from the sun into something you can use. Are you somehow less human because you depend on the plants? I'd say that dependence on outside food sources is part of the human condition; it's just how we're made. We're not capable as a species of processing direct energy into something that our bodies can use. Saying that's a criterion for being human is assumed, because no humans exist (or have existed, ever) that can. Every person uses their mother's body in such a way; it's also part of the human condition. I can guarantee you that no human has been born without nutrients processed by plants, then by the mother. This may change in the future, with artificial wombs for example, but they will still depend on something that processes their food for them.


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Old 03-10-2006, 07:27 PM   #129
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Except that the fetus requires the mother to process the food for it. Where as a living human does not. It can do that on it's own.


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Old 03-10-2006, 07:32 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
Except as it is, there are no flaws. Naturally every rule has exceptions, especially ones dealing with a complex issue such as life.
As you stated there are exceptions. Just not when it goes against your point of view. As it shows when you could not own up between the genetic eunuch argument and the argument about a fetus being unable to reproduce.

@TK-8252

First let me say there is a difference between humans and animals.
Humans are capable of higher order thought process. Animals are not. 'nough said

If you are going to compare humans to animals then you might want to bring up some proof for it. I don't feel the need since it is kinda obvious that we are much more stophisticated than even the smartest animals.


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Old 03-10-2006, 07:46 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
Except that the fetus requires the mother to process the food for it. Where as a living human does not. It can do that on it's own.
It utilizes the nutrients provided by itself. What is your opinion on people, such as infants, who require their food to be processed by a means other than themselves (the mother's milk or otherwise)? You wouldn't just force feed them adult food and expect them to be able to handle it because they're people, surely? Also, some people cannot process some foods themselves anyway. While this is not a total inability, does it make them less human than you or I?

I don't know about you, but I consider it 'normal' for the fetus to take nourishment from the mother, and obviously to do so said food must go through her body first, the same as with her milk after the child is born (interestingly enough, men can provide milk as well, so it doesn't need to be the mother, but the same thing happens - it's processed by someone else).


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Old 03-10-2006, 07:56 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Joeİ
@TK-8252

First let me say there is a difference between humans and animals.
Humans are capable of higher order thought process. Animals are not. 'nough said

If you are going to compare humans to animals then you might want to bring up some proof for it. I don't feel the need since it is kinda obvious that we are much more stophisticated than even the smartest animals.
Humans are animals.
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Old 03-10-2006, 08:01 PM   #133
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I was talking about their minds. The way we think. The way we handle situations. I thought I would be understood with "Higher order process"


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Old 03-10-2006, 08:15 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I honestly hope you have something reasonable that supports your view.
Perhaps this? Maybe something from MIT's biology department? The one from MIT only has three though, two of which (the ones Insane Sith and I have mentioned) fetuses do not have, and the other was not disputed here.



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Old 03-10-2006, 10:37 PM   #135
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Fetuses don't metabolize? Ofcourse fetuses can't reproduce, even new born babies can't. And i've mentioned this before, its hard to draw the line of where the human life actually starts, babies in the third trimester have survived abortions and have grown up just like anyone else. If your not sure where it really begins why risk it?


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Old 03-10-2006, 10:41 PM   #136
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To some it's worth the risk, and it may even be better for their child not to be born.



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Old 03-10-2006, 10:47 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
To some it's worth the risk, and it may even be better for their child not to be born.
True enough, but even if we agree some people are "better off dead" that doesn't mean it's right to arbitrarily kill them. Maybe their life will improve? Maybe their hardship will be worth the risk in the long run? Human beings have a talent for overcoming adversity and making good things come out of bad, at least if history is any indication.

That's a major reason why I'm against abortion, the death penalty and euthanasia/assisted suicide (but I promise not to muddy the waters with those oither issues, just using it as an illustrative point).


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Old 03-10-2006, 10:59 PM   #138
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I think we went in a big loop... they already hashed it out about "it would be better to die than live a horrid life" sort of thing.


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Old 03-10-2006, 10:59 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Kurgan
That's a major reason why I'm against abortion, the death penalty and euthanasia/assisted suicide (but I promise not to muddy the waters with those oither issues, just using it as an illustrative point).
Oh I get it, you're pro-life pro-suffering!
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:02 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
Perhaps this? Maybe something from MIT's biology department? The one from MIT only has three though, two of which (the ones Insane Sith and I have mentioned) fetuses do not have, and the other was not disputed here.
In the interests of being as correct as possible, I asked a biologist I know. She has a B.S. in biology and is certaintly competent enough to answer the question. I showed her the 'requirements' for life, like so:

Quote:
1. Organization - Living things are comprised of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
2. Metabolism - Metabolism produces energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (synthesis) and decomposing organic matter (catalysis). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
3. Growth - Growth results from a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
4. Adaptation - Adaptation is the accommodation of a living organism to its environment. It is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the individual's heredity.
5. Response to stimuli - A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. Plants also respond to stimuli, but usually in ways very different from animals. A response is often expressed by motion: the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
6. Reproduction - The division of one cell to form two new cells is reproduction. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.
I then asked her "Do these rules describe all life?" to which she answered, "No, it looks like it describes most things, but there's always exceptions." She gave basically the same reasons I gave, and which the wiki article gave (note I did not show her anything save the five rules; I'm not interested in bias).

So there you have it, from the mouth of a biologist herself.

About your sources, however - the first is simply a list of definitions. Pick one and then I'll talk about it. Your second, the MIT one, is an incomplete definition (it clearly says, "For a more extensive definition read chapter 1 of Purves or discuss these properties with your tutor"), so how do you know they aren't describing it more accurately in the textbook?

I notice that neither one of your sources show that a majority of biologists accept that these rules must be strictly followed when defining life, and, when I asked the one biologist I know, she says you're wrong. If you can come up with some type of poll or whatever showing that the majority do believe as you do, then good. At present, though, I'd say you're not convincing me very well.


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Old 03-10-2006, 11:40 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Oh I get it, you're pro-life pro-suffering!
Not to drag religion into this, but I think Buddha said it best: "ALL life is suffering."

Should you put a shotgun in someone's mouth the instant they get a toothache? That's ridiculous! I'm for easing suffering and learning to deal with it, not killing the patient.


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Old 03-10-2006, 11:51 PM   #142
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@Kurgan-
I was talking more along the lines of birth defects. Some are incurable and the child would lead a pain-filled life until they die at an early age.

@Samuel Dravis-
I'm not about to waste my time researching this to meet your standard of proof, which seems impossible to meet. This type of consensus if similar to a mathematical convention, like c being the hypotenuse of a triangle. Try to find a poll of mathemeticians that agree with that one

I think most of you are overlooking the fact that is is not your decision to make, and it is not a decision the legislature should make. It should be the decision of the woman in question and maybe the father.



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Old 03-11-2006, 12:17 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
I think most of you are overlooking the fact that is is not your decision to make, and it is not a decision the legislature should make. It should be the decision of the woman in question and maybe the father.
Well see, that too is a value judgement, and that's the whole reason we're discussing this! Abortion is permitted in the US because the Supreme Court decided that it was part of an implied constitutional right to privacy, as has already been laid out.


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Old 03-11-2006, 12:32 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
@Samuel Dravis-
I'm not about to waste my time researching this to meet your standard of proof, which seems impossible to meet. This type of consensus if similar to a mathematical convention, like c being the hypotenuse of a triangle. Try to find a poll of mathemeticians that agree with that one
My 'standard of truth' is simply a request for you to show that you are correct in your statements. If you won't give reasonable proof for your assertions, I'm not so sure you even have an arguement.

Quote:
I think most of you are overlooking the fact that is is not your decision to make, and it is not a decision the legislature should make. It should be the decision of the woman in question and maybe the father.
A decision the legislature should make is one that protects the people's rights. A decision that I can make is one that upholds my moral code, and it seems to me that attempting to protect innocent life falls under that. I don't think I'm 'overlooking' something. I've already shown why I don't think that relative judgements can be used reliably in this situation, so don't assume I have to follow them.

No, I'm not going to just take your word on it (which is basically all you've given me) when you declare that it's perfectly ok for someone to arbitrarily decide whether or not to kill innocents. That's how it appears to me, and I will take action based on that.


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Old 03-11-2006, 12:37 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Not to drag religion into this, but I think Buddha said it best: "ALL life is suffering."

Should you put a shotgun in someone's mouth the instant they get a toothache? That's ridiculous! I'm for easing suffering and learning to deal with it, not killing the patient.
Except I'm not Buddhist, and if that person wants to solve their toothache with a shotgun, that's their business.

I was kinda amused with a recent episode of Battlestar Galactica I finally got around to watching. It involved a girl smuggling onto the Galactica to get an abortion. Her parents wanted her back, abortion evil, ect ect. The President ("Pro-women-can-do-what-they-want-with-their-bodies) grants her asylum and let's the girl have the abortion (then outlawing it to preserve the human race, but since our population isn't below 50,000 I don't think we have to worry about that).

I still maintain that abortion should be allowed for special cases (rape, ect), but not for "the condom broke" or something. Some people may agree with that, but what I'm reading is that abortion would not be allowed period.

I guess I'm riding the fence. They should be allowed to have the abortion, it's their body the parasite is occupying, but people shouldn't be coming in every year because they get pregnant for having irresponsible sex.
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Old 03-11-2006, 02:04 AM   #146
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Well, I decided to take a day off from this thread, for the most part. Too much heavy thinking... and way too much heavy typing for my admittedly limited skills.
Getting back to the 'splitting-off-from-this-thread' discussion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
If you really think it's necessary. It is, as you say, directly related to your idea of whether or not abortion should be legal (in fact my objection to it was the reason for this particular discussion). It's as good a subject as any for this thread.
Yes, I do. We have steered well clear of the original subject (which seems to be back on track, somewhat...) and have gotten more into dissecting personal moral philosophies, which, while it does has bearing, is a far broader subject that could be applied to other situations, outside of just this one.
Seems a worthy topic for further, but perhaps less heated discussion, outside of this divisive subject. I'd be glad to go into it much further, in another venue, but to me it seems to be sidetracking the topic at hand.

I have stated my position, both in this particular thread, but in others in the Senate; but here it is again, in the clearest possible language I can muster, for the record:

Personally, I find myself morally opposed to abortion.
However, I find it just as wrong to attempt to use the Government to force my views on those that may not share my particular moral objection on a subject such as this where there is clearly not a universal consensus among the American public. (A national debate is probably in order to find what consensus truly exists,.. if any.)
I also don't believe banning abortions will ever truly serve to reduce the number that take place in this country in the long run.
Therefore, I think abortions should remain legal: but every attempt should be made using education, contraception, and easy access to social services such as adoption, as possible; to seriously try to reduce the numbers to as close to nothing as is likely to ever happen in an imperfect world.

All that being said:

I do think Roe v. Wade will be eventually overturned; perhaps by the end of this decade.
I don't think that's altogether a bad thing.
I don't think it will be overturned by this particular effort by the South Dakota legislature to push it up to the Supreme Court, however. This effort is premature, since the moderate middle of the country isn't totally along for the right-wing ride yet. The country still isn't as conservative on some subjects as a few folks would like to believe. It will most likely be a stillborn effort, and in my opinion should be, (if you pardon the language,) aborted.
Once Roe is overturned, the states will be mired down in legislative and judicial battles for years following.
It's a pretty sure bet that it will remain legal on both coasts, and a few other selective states... and illegal over the rest of the nation.
Eventually conservatives, bolstered by this victory, will attempt a federal nation-wide ban, not only of abortion, but perhaps on many forms of birth-control. Sex education, other than the "Abstinence-Only" variety may also get targeted in the fray. (Pornography might also... but since that's such a cash cow for a lot of people, it will never go anywhere.)

Ultimately, there will be a large enough backlash, with the political center moving to the left on these subjects, that the entire process will most likely take place all over again... only this time I hope that instead of a fairly weak court ruling like Roe, it will be part of a Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing the right to privacy from Governmental interference on matters that should be personal. One that will be far, far more difficult to ever overturn.

But that doesn't mean someone won't try...


So far, nobody has really discussed what we can realistically expect to see if and when Roe is really overturned.
It's gonna be a mess. A state by state battle. It's gonna tie up state governments and court houses for decades... except for the ones like S.D. who have their positions on the books already.

I can be fairly sure that there will even be attempts to ban abortions here in the fine Commonwealth I find myself living in... but I don't realistically foresee that ever taking place. The entire Northeast, as well as all of the West Coast will be hold-outs, I believe.

Unless there's a move towards a Federal ban. And that, I believe, would be the biggest mistake.


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Old 03-11-2006, 07:37 AM   #147
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I will start with this, because it seems to me the most important feature of this debate. And I would ask the anti-choicers here to adress this point before they move on to my other points.

The anti-choice side here is arguing from fundamentally fallacious premises. In the anti-choice rethoric, there are two implicit assumptions:

The first assumption is that it is possible to point to a stage in foetal development where the foetus suddenly and magically ceases to be a lump of chemicals and becomes a full human. In other words, there is an implicit assumption that there is a point at which contraception goes from completely unproblematic to completely unacceptable.

The second assumption is that there is no consideration that justifies compromise on this issue. That under no circumstances is it acceptable to even risk crossing the imaginary line imposed by the first assumption.

I would argue that the first assumption is stupid. In fact, there is no discontinuities during pregnancy that can justify such an assumption. Thus, if an ethical discontinuity is assumed where there is no biological counterpart, it will necessarily be an arbitrary distinction that can - in principle - be placed anywhere and everywhere. And no matter where it is placed, it will yield unacceptable conclusions.

The second assumption is just plainly hypocritical. Clearly, there are no other ethical principles - none at all - where breaking them can never be justified.

The freedom of the press, for instance, is absolute. Yet we feel justified in compromising it if it is used to publish instructions on how to make sarin gas along with an anti-semitic tract, and directions to the nearest jewish temple.

Or take the principle that society shall never condone arbitrary killing - the very principle invoked by the anti-choice taliban. This principle is unsustainable. In war - for instance - we must be willing to accept the killing of innocents. In medicine, we must be willing to accept the fact that some patients are going to die who could have been saved, had we spent sufficient resources on their treatment. But had we done that, those same resources could not have been spent on - say - providing clean drinking water to our citizens, or finding ways around antibiotics resistance in bacteria.

Every decision involves a tradeoff between principles and practicality. To claim otherwise is to lie.

In this case, the tradeoff is between the woman's self-evident right to practice her sexuality as she wishes, the woman's equally self-evident right to not be hampered unduely in her life by the exercise of said right, and the legitimate need of society to avoid using resources on caring for an unwanted child on the one hand, and the ethical problems associated with terminating a pregnancy on the other hand.

I never claimed - and will never claim - that it is completely unproblematic to terminate a pregnancy. What I do claim is that it is not equally unproblematic to terminate a pregnancy a minute after conception and a minute before birth. That pregnancy involves a gradual transition from non-human to human. Similarily, it is not equally beneficial for the mother to terminate the pregnancy early and late. The inconvenience imposed is obviously affected by many different factors, but it is equally obvious that the benefit of terminating the pregnancy decreases over time.

It follows that there is a point at which it is unacceptable to terminate a pregnancy/kill the infant. Where that point is depends in part on the current technological state of society.

In some prehistoric societies, suicide and infanticide were necessary as a means of controlling the size of the population, in order to avoid overstraining the environment that sustained the whole of society. I would argue that while such practices should not be taken lightly, they are not always unethical: Were they not carried out, the ensuing environmental collapse would kill far more people than the measures themselves (as, in fact, was the result when ignorant and intolerant missionaries put a stop to the practice). Similarily, as the ability to (and cost of) sustaining the foetus outside the womb and caring for it during infancy and childhood goes up, the point where abortion/infanticide is no longer acceptable is pushed back in time.

But biology and technology can only answer part of the question. There remains two distinct political decisions: How much relative weight should be given to the foetus, the mother, and to the interests of society as a whole? And how great a risk of overstepping the boundries of what we consider ethical are we willing - as a society - to take?

Both of these are non-trivial decisions. And neither has a cut-and-dried answer. But as long as the anti-choice taliban refuse to acknowledge that these are legitimate questions and that other people's answers have at leasts some merit, all discussion of these subjects will be fruitless.

- JS

EDIT: Goddamn XEmacs and its stupid character limit!

Quote:
Ultimately, there will be a large enough backlash, with the political center moving to the left on these subjects,
Why do some people keep assuming that the US government will remain accountable to the citizens?


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Old 03-11-2006, 09:56 AM   #148
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If it's the case that the U.S. government won't ever be accountable to the citizens, then all these battles are already lost, and the debate is already over.
Personally, I'm not that pessimistic about the situation yet...

Honestly, it hasn't gotten that far yet... no matter how it might seem from the outside.

If enough U.S. citizens react in one way, the politicians will change their song... or lose their jobs.
Politicians are, by and large, opportunists... and most of them are willing to tone down their rhetoric and subjugate their own ideology in order to keep their jobs.

Besides: How many of them are preaching an ideology just because that's what they think their electorate wants to hear? Say the right words = Get elected. I'm sure there are more than a few of them that this applies to.


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Old 03-11-2006, 11:33 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
The anti-choice side here is arguing from fundamentally fallacious premises. In the anti-choice rhetoric, there are two implicit assumptions:

The first assumption is that it is possible to point to a stage in foetal development where the foetus suddenly and magically ceases to be a lump of chemicals and becomes a full human. In other words, there is an implicit assumption that there is a point at which contraception goes from completely unproblematic to completely unacceptable.
It has already been pointed out that fetuses development is incremental. A tree does not grow up as soon as the seed hits the ground; likewise a child is not born an adult. But your failure to offer a point when a lump of cells becoms a child does not give you the right to kill it, if you did you could very well kill a human because of your ignorence of the matter.

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Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
The second assumption is that there is no consideration that justifies compromise on this issue. That under no circumstances is it acceptable to even risk crossing the imaginary line imposed by the first assumption.
There is a reason that I (The Anti-choice Taliban as I have been called) dont feel there is room to compromise. It?s because of your failure to point out when they become a ?human? that it comes back too. So you very well may be killing a human being. Since it is my opinion that we should try to protect all human life form conception to natural death, and the fact that I know that those globs of cells are the building blocks of human life, the very things that make us individuals. You may say that It does not have a brain, or other organs, nerves whathave you. But only several weeks after conception that fetuses brain has already started growing. Are you going to kill it now? Im an adolescent. My brain will not be fully developed till my early to mid 20s. The point is that you cant slap a scientific principle on everything. Somethings you just must look at with logical perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
I would argue that the first assumption is stupid. In fact, there is no discontinuities during pregnancy that can justify such an assumption. Thus, if an ethical discontinuity is assumed where there is no biological counterpart, it will necessarily be an arbitrary distinction that can - in principle - be placed anywhere and everywhere. And no matter where it is placed, it will yield unacceptable conclusions.
I am sorry if I am misquoting you but I believe it is you who are assuming this.

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Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
Or take the principle that society shall never condone arbitrary killing - the very principle invoked by the anti-choice Taliban. This principle is unsustainable.
I will pretend to know what you are talking about.
Fine. Next time I am in a bad mood I will just run out into the street and go postal. [/sarcastic] For socitity to exist it must have a value system.

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Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
In war - for instance - we must be willing to accept the killing of innocents.
That innocents will be killed. Not that we are just going to start killing them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
In medicine, we must be willing to accept the fact that some patients are going to die who could have been saved, had we spent sufficient resources on their treatment. But had we done that, those same resources could not have been spent on - say - providing clean drinking water to our citizens, or finding ways around antibiotics resistance in bacteria.
Incomparable analogy

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
Every decision involves a tradeoff between principles and practicality. To claim otherwise is to lie.
So you would chose practicality over principle? Just a yes or no will work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
In this case, the tradeoff is between the woman's self-evident right to practice her sexuality as she wishes, the woman's equally self-evident right to not be hampered unduely in her life by the exercise of said right, and the legitimate need of society to avoid using resources on caring for an unwanted child on the one hand, and the ethical problems associated with terminating a pregnancy on the other hand.
This is horrid. If the woman gets pregnant it is her and her partners fault for not having responsible sex. In our constitution there is no right to practice your sexuality, and then kill a child because you dont like the consequences. If people want to have sex, more power to them. BUT that does not give them the right to take away someone elses rights. Because in our constitution, there is a right to LIFE. Unlike your self-evident rights to be able to do whatever you want to without facing any consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
I never claimed - and will never claim - that it is completely unproblematic to terminate a pregnancy. What I do claim is that it is not equally unproblematic to terminate a pregnancy a minute after conception and a minute before birth. That pregnancy involves a gradual transition from non-human to human. Similarily, it is not equally beneficial for the mother to terminate the pregnancy early and late. The inconvenience imposed is obviously affected by many different factors, but it is equally obvious that the benefit of terminating the pregnancy decreases over time.
Again, you fail to tell us what you think makes someone human! Is it not enough to be conceived by two humans, to have the DNA, genes, cells and be in your mothers womb? AND the fact that every minute you are becoming more able to reach your potential, that being a fully grown active member of society. Sure some people may fail to reach that potential. They may make bad choices, like drop out of highschool, or do drugs, or in worse case they die before they can actually learn to enjoy life. This may mean they die in a car accident or any number of things. Snuffing out that ?Embryo? ?Fetus? ?baby? ?Human?, is denying them their right to life. And that is something no one has power to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
It follows that there is a point at which it is unacceptable to terminate a pregnancy/kill the infant. Where that point is depends in part on the current technological state of society.
I bet you can guess that I disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
In some prehistoric societies, suicide and infanticide were necessary as a means of controlling the size of the population, in order to avoid overstraining the environment that sustained the whole of society. I would argue that while such practices should not be taken lightly, they are not always unethical: Were they not carried out, the ensuing environmental collapse would kill far more people than the measures themselves (as, in fact, was the result when ignorant and intolerant missionaries put a stop to the practice). Similarily, as the ability to (and cost of) sustaining the foetus outside the womb and caring for it during infancy and childhood goes up, the point where abortion/infanticide is no longer acceptable is pushed back in time.
This has no bearing. There is nothing preventing us from taking care of these children if they are born. There are a wealth of options our there that would let mothers support their child.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
But biology and technology can only answer part of the question. There remains two distinct political decisions: How much relative weight should be given to the foetus, the mother, and to the interests of society as a whole? And how great a risk of overstepping the boundries of what we consider ethical are we willing - as a society - to take?

Both of these are non-trivial decisions. And neither has a cut-and-dried answer. But as long as the anti-choice taliban refuse to acknowledge that these are legitimate questions and that other people's answers have at leasts some merit, all discussion of these subjects will be fruitless.
*Sigh* back again. You can?t make that judgment unless you know when a fetus is human. I believe that since they contain everything they need to grow into what you call a human there is no reason to kill them and every reason for them to live. Until you can clarify when it is unacceptable to abort them, I cannot answer your arguments in a comprehensible way. Because for all reasons to debate about this we have to work together in a small degree.

Life is hard when your an anti-choice Taliban *sob*

::EDIT:: One last thing. I wish you would bring up when you consider a child to be human, whether through incremental development or just popping into awareness (I dont care which you pick just pick one and when you consider them to be human) I already stated my opinion on this and the fact stands. If I am wrong no humans will have died. If you are wrong that means that we have murdered thousands of people.

ty


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Last edited by Joeİ; 03-11-2006 at 12:04 PM. Reason: Something I wanted to add...
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Old 03-11-2006, 12:01 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeİ
if you did you could very well kill a human because of your ignorence of the matter.
Not only is that an absurd statement, but we're all a little dumber for having read that.

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Originally Posted by Joeİ
Unlike your self-evident rights to be able to do whatever you want to without facing any consequences.
Abortion is a consequence, and it has it's own negative consequences.


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Originally Posted by Joeİ
And that is something no one has power to do.
And yet, here we are.


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Originally Posted by Joeİ
There is nothing preventing us from taking care of these children if they are born.
The fact that there are already more children in adoption facilities than can be adopted out, in any realistic sense, means that statement is a bunch of bull****.

And that's just adoption facilities in America, I won't even touch on Africa.


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Originally Posted by Joeİ
I believe that since they contain everything they need to grow into what you call a human
They also have everything needed to grow up into a chimpanzee, but I don't see you fighting to protect our simian brothers.


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Old 03-11-2006, 12:20 PM   #151
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I would please ask you not to call my posts bull****. I used a small degree of logic in my post and cant say I ever saw anything to refute it except that my post was BS

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Originally Posted by Insane Sith
Not only is that an absurd statement, but we're all a little dumber for having read that.
If he does not know when its a human what gives him the right to kill it? as I said he needs to answer the timeline question before he can just assume things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
Abortion is a consequence, and it has it's own negative consequences.
True enough. But I thinkt here there are more negative consequences for the fetus.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
And yet, here we are.
I was talking about taking away someone rights. I dont know what you were talking about.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
The fact that there are already more children in adoption facilities than can be adopted out, in any realistic sense, means that statement is a bunch of bull****.
And that's just adoption facilities in America, I won't even touch on Africa.[/QUOTE]

Yes adoption facilities are full. But there are tons of goverment programs that support people in trouble (WIC for example) and thats only for single mothers. Say they had a husband?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
They also have everything needed to grow up into a chimpanzee, but I don't see you fighting to protect our simian brothers.
This statement is just not true. They have human DNA and genes. Thats what has made it where no one has ever had a baby chimpanzee before. and the reason I am not fight to protect "our simian brothers" is because they are animals. their worth in my eyes is much less than any human. but its off topic to talk about the differences between humans and animals...


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Old 03-11-2006, 12:44 PM   #152
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At early stages, there's no significant difference between a human fetus and a chimp fetus, it's only upon later developement that they show in real difference.

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Originally Posted by Joeİ
Yes adoption facilities are full. But there are tons of goverment programs that support people in trouble (WIC for example) and thats only for single mothers. Say they had a husband?
So we can't take care of the children that are already born, let's give more children crappy lives. Sounds like a brilliant idea.

You know why today's society sucks?

Because it can't contain itself.


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Old 03-11-2006, 12:58 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
At early stages, there's no significant difference between a human fetus and a chimp fetus, it's only upon later developement that they show in real difference.
Good point, cept not. Yes they are both just a cluster of cells at that stage but the chimpanzee has chimp DNA and genes. This is something that makes the fetus human. Yes those cells could grow into anything but only you mess with them. Leave them to grow like normal and hey presto. A Human baby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
So we can't take care of the children that are already born, let's give more children crappy lives. Sounds like a brilliant idea.

You know why today's society sucks?

Because it can't contain itself.
Oh god! Please not the "they will have bad lives" arguement again. I could have had a bad life too (not saying mine is great or anything...) but it would have been because of choices I made that would have made me have a bad life. Even people growing up in the poorest ghetto in town can aspire to great things. This is a proven fact, so lets not say that it would be better to kill them then risk them having a bad life. otherwise we would just have to start killing everyone or we might risk them having a bad life.


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Old 03-11-2006, 12:58 PM   #154
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Again, as I pointed out earlier, using the "oh there's a right to life in the Constitution" argument shows a clear misunderstanding on that particular phrase from the Constitution. The "life, liberty, and persuit of happiness" was borrowed from John Locke, who had it originally as "life, liberty, and property." This originated from the time of the Enlightenment, when thinkers started questioning if the king should really be able to come and drag you into the street and kill you, throw you in prison without trial, and take your **** from you.

By no means did "right to life" imply that you can't end a life in a case where it is justified, just as we do today.
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Old 03-11-2006, 01:02 PM   #155
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Good point, cept not. Yes they are both just a cluster of cells at that stage but the chimpanzee has chimp DNA and genes. This is something that makes the fetus human. Yes those cells could grow into anything but only you mess with them. Leave them to grow like normal and hey presto. A Human baby.
No, at early stages in developement, there is no significant difference. Humans and chimps share the same exact DNA except for a 2% difference, which doesn't make itself apparent until later stages in developement in the womb. Before that, they're by all means, the same thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeİ
Oh god! Please not the "they will have bad lives" arguement again. I could have had a bad life too (not saying mine is great or anything...) but it would have been because of choices I made that would have made me have a bad life. Even people growing up in the poorest ghetto in town can aspire to great things. This is a proven fact, so lets not say that it would be better to kill them then risk them having a bad life. otherwise we would just have to start killing everyone or we might risk them having a bad life.
That's not what I'm saying, I'm arguing your point that we have ways to take care of them. Which is bull****.


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Old 03-11-2006, 01:12 PM   #156
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By no means did "right to life" imply that you can't end a life in a case where it is justified, just as we do today.
Please explain how its is justified to kill a innocent person.

Quote:
No, at early stages in developement, there is no significant difference. Humans and chimps share the same exact DNA except for a 2% difference, which doesn't make itself apparent until later stages in developement in the womb. Before that, they're by all means, the same thing.
This is still a flawed argument. We are superior to chimpanzees even if they are very like to us, so you cannot compare the two. Also the only way this argument would hold water is if someone had a chimpanzee baby, proving that there is no difference in-between the species. For all intents and purposes this argument has no bearing because this has never happened, and will never happen in the natural scheme of things.


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Old 03-11-2006, 01:16 PM   #157
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Quote:
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Again, as I pointed out earlier, using the "oh there's a right to life in the Constitution" argument shows a clear misunderstanding on that particular phrase from the Constitution. The "life, liberty, and persuit of happiness" was borrowed from John Locke, who had it originally as "life, liberty, and property."
The words: "... liberty, and pursuit of happiness..." implies a certain amount of privacy and freedom of choice to me.
It can be argued that while the word "privacy" never appears in the text, and the concept isn't spelled out in detail, was it something that the founders left out on purpose, or did they feel it was "self evident" in the tone of the text.

This was an age, after all, where the kinds of things we take for granted would be unfathomable to the people that wrote that document.
Isn't it possible that the opposite is true, as well? That they felt the concept of "privacy" didn't need to be spelled out in an age where, for many, it might be a several-hour horse ride to even talk to your nearest neighbor?


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Old 03-11-2006, 02:52 PM   #158
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Please explain how its is justified to kill a innocent person.
Um... it isn't. No one here has said it is.
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Old 03-11-2006, 03:18 PM   #159
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Just a quick note to throw out there, the phrase "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is actually from Jefferson's Declaration of Independance, not the US Constitution. It's supposedly based on John Locke's "Life, liberty and property."

Some use this to argue that the DOI is just a statement of philosophy, not law. Others take it to be that this is how the laws ought to be written Edit: (or interpreted), with this philosophy in mind (rather than saying "that's nice, but who cares").

It also comes down to what the role of the Constitution is. Is it a "living document" that must be changed based on the majority view of morality and governance at any given time in history, relying on the spirit of the times? Is it a sacrosanct piece of wisdom that will save us from ourselves? (and the desire to lapse into apathy and a comfortable dictatorship or the popular anarchy of mob rule?) It's an interesting aspect of the discussion anyway...


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Old 03-11-2006, 04:08 PM   #160
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By no means did "right to life" imply that you can't end a life in a case where it is justified
This statement here says so. If I am reading it correct you are saying that if it is justified you can end a life (We have been talking about abortion in this thread so I was guessing that you were refering to abortion) I only asked when is it justified? And if this is not what you mean I would ask you to explain.

@Kurgan

Actully your right and I should know this... I guess sometimes it helps if I think before I speak. ty for pointing out this error on my part.

But the fact still stand whether or not I misquoted about the Right to Life.

Though it may have been written with some king chopping off your head in mind it still applies to more than one thing. And is someones privacy more important than another persons life? If I killed someone would it be okay as long as I did it in my own home where no one could see me? And about "let people do whatever they want with their bodies" Do we keep suicidal people under watch? (if we catch them) as SD pointed out, dont we have laws against doing drugs? What about restrictions against harming other people. Here in Austin they have smoking bans. No where is it allowed to drink and drive, or DWI.These are all laws that keep us from harming other people. So why shouldent there be a law against aborting unborn children. The government has been in the job of protecting us from ourselves and each other form years, why should we stop now when so many lives are at stake?


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