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Old 07-17-2006, 12:56 AM   #81
Jae Onasi
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Mach, are you talking about the quillons? Or are you talking about a 2 small blades that come out near where the quillons, blades, and hilt meet?


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

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Old 07-17-2006, 01:25 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by machievelli
The Zweihander and Heavy Scots Claymore are only different by the design of the two smaller blads near the pommel.

A bastard sword was originally designed for someone used to a standard sword learning to fight with a longer sword. The bastard is excellent for such combat except that the originals had rounded rather than sharp points.
Actually, the Zweihander, at about 72", was typically longer than the Claymore, which averaged 55". Some, but not all, had a couple of blades emerging diagonally from the junction of the blade and quillons or instead of quillons.

Obviously, the Zweihander does not compare to the lightsaber. While the Claymore is closer, it is still longer than a lightsaber. The term "bastard sword" as I am using it is simply a sword of about 42-60". It could also be called a "hand-and-a-half sword". It is more appropriate for lightsaber combat than a katana because it is double-edged, where a katana is single-edged.


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Old 07-17-2006, 02:16 AM   #83
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Isn't a katana more deadly since they can be extremely sharp?

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Old 07-17-2006, 07:55 AM   #84
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All the blades can be made extremely sharp.

The danger in the Middle ages (the time period where we think about sword fighting being relatively common) wasn't necessarily getting something lopped off with a sword during battle. The immediate danger was shock, because there was no ambulance crew to come pick you up and get you to the first aid station--if your buddy didn't pick you up, you laid on the field. Even if you did make it back to help, there were no IVs or blood transfusions or other medications to combat the shock. The danger a few days after battle was often infection from even a small cut, because there were no antibiotics until the 1930's (Egyptians eating moldy bread notwithstanding).

You can also do a lot of damage with a dull blade, but it takes more force. You only have to cut far enough in to hit a vital area--hit one of the major veins or arteries in the arms or legs, or hit just about anything in the chest/abdomen. You don't have to go all the way through someone with a sharp blade. An inch or 2 in the right spot is just as deadly as going all the way through something.


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Old 07-17-2006, 11:24 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Mach, are you talking about the quillons? Or are you talking about a 2 small blades that come out near where the quillons, blades, and hilt meet?
The two smaller blades.

And it is spelled quillions and pronounced 'kwee-ons'

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
The term "bastard sword" as I am using it is simply a sword of about 42-60". It could also be called a "hand-and-a-half sword". It is more appropriate for lightsaber combat than a katana because it is double-edged, where a katana is single-edged.
Actually the term bastard came because it wasn't a long sword, and wasn't a two handed sword, so it was the 'bastard in between'.

All blades can be made sharp, true. However the Japanese steel was and still is a unique contstruct that held an edge very well, yet was resiliant enough to take steady blows without shattering.

European Steel in comparison was a poor second. Even Toledo, which was the best European steel or Damascus steel which was an Arab invention were no substitute.

Also, unlike the European designs, which ranged from the short sword up to the Zwei-hander, the Japanese worked with a blade designed to be used most efficiently with two hands, yet be light enough to use one handed. For other situations they designed not different swords, but entirely different weapons. The saber-staff as JA call Darth Mall's weapon is based on an other Japanese weapon, a twin bladed Naginata.

The rapid strike-block-strike of a lightsaber duel is closer to the Japanese style as well.


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Last edited by RedHawke; 07-18-2006 at 02:31 AM. Reason: Combining triple post...
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Old 07-17-2006, 01:07 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by machievelli
The two smaller blades.

And it is spelled quillions and pronounced 'kwee-ons'
Unless you're pronouncing it in the bastardized French version like we do, in which case it comes out kee-ons.

Yep, I spelled it wrong in my other post. I was on the committee running the church picnic all day yesterday, and it was 95 degrees out by us with 9000% humidity, and I was the one manning the hot beef station. Great food, great company, great fun, but I was exhausted when I was done, and I just forgot to spell check it.

Sure, Damascus may shatter more often (and both were far better than any European steel of that time), but it holds a very sharp edge very nicely. Since she asked about 'sharp' rather than 'blade quality/resiliency', I answered accordingly.

Kendo/Kumdo (I couldn't resist adding in the Korean version, since I take taekwondo ) works as a good alternate, but the shinai is a lot lighter than a real sword and it's a bit shorter. We have a shinai in our dojang so I've gotten the chance to handle that, along with various swords--I imagine mach has too. The shinai 'blade' moves much faster and you can almost whip it to strike since it's so light. My rapier moves much more slowly, though that could be as much from my lack of skill with it as anything else. I've only had about a year of experience with rapier. How that would transfer to lightsaber combat I don't know, since we really don't know how hefting a lightsaber feels.
Probably the best simulation for swordplay I've seen is the combat at events held by the Society for Creative Anachronism, because they're not choreographed. They don't use real swords, they use rattan, which was chosen because it a. doesn't kill people and is pretty safe for a martial art (they've been doing this for 40 years and no one's died from a combat injury) and b. simulates the weight of swords about as accurately as you can get with a non-deadly alternative.
The Kingdom of Acre also does this type of 'fighting' (and I _think_ their group was started by someone from the SCA), but I don't know if there are any active groups outside the NY/NJ region.
The Adrian Empire uses blunt metal swords and other weapons in their combat and have groups scattered throughout the US, but I know nothing more about them than what their website says.
There may well be other history re-enactment groups that also do combat like this, the SCA happens to be the one that I'm most familiar with.

Mach, any history reenactment groups (besides SCA--I know they have a bunch of branches in CA since it started in Berkeley) like this out by you? I'm only familiar with the midwest, and we don't have much outside of the SCA.

This may be way more about swordplay than anyone wanted.


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Old 07-17-2006, 02:46 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
and it was 95 degrees out by us with 9000% humidity, and I was the one manning the hot beef station. Great food, great company, great fun, but I was exhausted when I was done, and I just forgot to spell check it.
If you've been following the big fire in So Cal you should know I'm about 20 miles as the crow flies from there, and today is the first day it hasn't been 105+. Thanks to the weather patterns created we're reaching that 9000 humidity too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Sure, Damascus may shatter more often (and both were far better than any European steel of that time), but it holds a very sharp edge very nicely. Since she asked about 'sharp' rather than 'blade quality/resiliency', I answered accordingly.
My answer was postulated on something that could be readily related to a lightsaber. There are very few forms for using two hands in European texts, and all assume the larger blades mentioned. You have to remember that the reason Damascus and Japanese steels were so sharp was neither group was heavilty into armor yet. The Arabs because of the sheer agony of wearing it in the desert, the Japanese because their training assumed rapid mobility. Up until the century right before the Meijii reformation they did get into it. Before that the armor was wicker made primarily to deflect rather than stop attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Kendo/Kumdo (I couldn't resist adding in the Korean version, since I take taekwondo ) works as a good alternate, but the shinai is a lot lighter than a real sword and it's a bit shorter. We have a shinai in our dojang so I've gotten the chance to handle that, along with various swords--I imagine mach has too. The shinai 'blade' moves much faster and you can almost whip it to strike since it's so light. My rapier moves much more slowly, though that could be as much from my lack of skill with it as anything else. I've only had about a year of experience with rapier. How that would transfer to lightsaber combat I don't know, since we really don't know how hefting a lightsaber feels.
If you read the portion of my KOTOR novel that covers her learning the lightsaber, I mentioned something people forget. Energy, even a forcefield, weighs nothing. Part of the reason I saw for teaching children is that while they may have picked up sticks and waved them around like swords, they haven't gotten into the habit of whipping a mass of steel around. Steel that will not be there when they pick up a lightsaber. What you have when you're wielding a lightsaber is the pommel in your hand, and nothing else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Mach, any history reenactment groups (besides SCA--I know they have a bunch of branches in CA since it started in Berkeley) like this out by you? I'm only familiar with the midwest, and we don't have much outside of the SCA.

This may be way more about swordplay than anyone wanted.
Take your pick. I spent 11 years at the Renaissance Faire and they had a military pageant/ reenactment every day. Friends there introduced me to a civil war reenactment group. As for SCA style I live between the different kingdoms. The nearest is in San Diego I think, and the next after that in Los Angeles.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

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Star Wars: The Beginning
Star Wars: Republic Dawn
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:59 PM   #88
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Anyone know the name of Admiral Dodonna's ship, if there is a name for it?


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Old 08-07-2006, 11:43 PM   #89
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I don't recall there ever being a name for it. The only names mentioned are in TSL which are the Harbinger and the Sojourn.

On another note, I recently returned from a four week excavation up in my local San Bernardino Mountains. We were looking at the precedents to the Serrano Indians and the historic archaeology of Splinter's Cabin. THe Serrano site CA SBR-485 is located at the T6 crossing and is home to vegetation such as jeffery pine, black and live oak, poodle bushes and pine. Our site was mostly that of a midden (trash) deposit. It was also a work area because of the presence of bedrock mortars and milling slicks. We found some manos and grindstones and FAR or Fire Affected Rock. That is rock that has been heated repeatedly over time. Our biggest find were an obsidian flake and an obsidian point which indicate the site to be about 800 years old. We found the base of a basalt biface and a chert or jasper point. Charcoal was numerous and we collected soil samples to look for seeds and the like. It was hard work becasue the terrance we were on had huge bedrocks beginning at 30-40cm below the datum, the point from which we measure.
Next time I'll post on the Serrano or answer any questions.

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Old 08-29-2006, 01:56 PM   #90
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Weapons of Mass Destruction:

On the logic of creation and deployment of such weapons in historical context and logical extension into the Death Star and the Shadow Mass Generator.

As much as the liberal peaceniks seem to think any such weapon is evil, a weapon is only as evil as the one who uses it. To deploy such a weapon and use it in the field needs a certain mindset, and those who have done so are sometime painted as monsters, and at other times, as heroes.

Creation:

There are three reasons for the development of such a weapon, be it chemical, biological, or nuclear, and extending right up to the Death Stars and the Shadow Mass Generator. They are:

MILITARY NECESSITY: The enemy has something you do not have a counter for, therefore you develop this fiendish thingie as a counter. More weapons have been invented for this reason than any other.

Examples: When the Japanese invaded Korea in 1591, they brought a new weapon, the muzzle-loading flintlock. Their supplier, Portugal was willing to sell them handguns (The definition used at that time) but were unwilling to sell them cannon, or rent them a warship. Muskets were not powerful enough to seriously threaten a Portuguese merchantman, and the cannon aboard would have blown them to hell if they tried.

The Koreans had cannon, but they were a generation and a half behind the Portuguese with corresponding levels of efficiency. A musket-armed warship could approach and use their secret weapon to sweep the deck and allow them to board and capture it.

When faced with this, Admiral Yi Soon Shin deployed a counter to this threat the first recorded ironclad vessel the turtle ships. This allowed his fleet to hang in and fight, and protected them from Japanese muskets.

Another such development was the poison gases used in WWI. The Germans did not have the forces necessary to punch through the combined French and English forces in Europe. The gas was to destabilize the lines, and allow then to push through. The technology for such gas had existed since the American Civil War, but had not been used in any great amount before.

DESPERATION: At the start of WWII, there were seven nations capable of developing a nuclear weapon. England Germany, France Russia, Japan Italy and the United States. When the Germans swept through Western Europe, they removed one of these. The Russians had been too busy during the Stalinist purges to think about it. Most of the men capable of making one had either fled to England or the US, or were in the gulags. So the Russians were way behind. Germany and Italy saw no reason to make it, and when the Japanese beat us so handily in the first half of 1941, neither did they. After all, they were winning.
The US and England with the help of expatriates from Italy Germany and Russia immediately began research because the US was desperate. We didnít know if weíd even survive let along beat our enemies. We needed something that would level an enemy city in one blow, and this was it. The research continued after Midway because we still werenít sure. By the time the weapons were ready for construction, we were winning on all fronts handily We kept it up because the US had already spent a couple of billion dollars on making the damn thing. It was easier to point at a completed weapon than admitting that the money had been wasted.

However deploying it was military necessity. We looked at four operations to invade the Japanese Home Island that would have cost another five to seven million American troops, and would have led to the annihilation of 125 million people. Dropping the bombs convinced the Japanese that we could slaughter all of them off and it would cost us NOTHING.

SHEER BLOODY MINDEDNESS: The ongoing development by third world countries of chemical and nuclear weapons is of this sort. The big boys have them, if we did they would treat us with respect. There is an old joke from when the IRA was letter-bombing England. The joke goes; the IRA has developed the atomic bomb. The problem is, they havenít figure out how to make it fit in a letterbox yet.

Having Nuclear weapons would not deter a major nation so armed because they are still at the Hiroshima and pre Hydrogen bomb stage. Sure Korea can hit half a dozen American cities, or Iran could launch a nuke at Tel Aviv, but what happens then? Both of those nations are known to have such weapons in abundance. Israel has by my estimate about fifty to a hundred with yields ranging from 60 kilotons to a megaton. Tel Aviv eats 30 kilotons, and less than four hours later, every city in Iran is a smoking hole in the ground. The US had at the end of the Berlin wall and Evil Empire 16 thousand warheads ranging from dial -a-nuke B61s small enough for a fighter to carry that will pack between 50 kilotons and one megaton in the same bomb! That ranges up from 300 kiloton to 5 and ten-megaton bombs that need a strategic bomber or missile to carry. We get hit by dozen Korean missiles (Half an hour flight time, we know itís coming) and the only question is who gets to level the entire nation, the missile troops, the bombers, or the Navy. We lose maybe ten to eleven million people, and 50 million Koreans join them in oblivion anywhere from thirty minutes to 26 hours later.

As you can see, Sheer bloody-mindedness is a reason to build it, but not a great reason.

So where does Star Wars fit it?

There are two such weapons shown in the Canon. They are the Death Star with the variant developed by the Imperial Rump after the Rebellion, where you just take the planet killer weapon and install it in a star destroyer. The other is the Shadow Mass Generator.

DEATH STAR
The Death Star and the follow on designs were originally built out of sheer bloody-mindedness. The Emperor wanted something that would blow an enemy planet to hell, be big enough that even a fleet could not attack it, and be mobile so that you were safe nowhere. IT may be slow and ponderous, but when it arrives, youíre toast.

After the original was destroyed, the Emperor built the second only to give the Republic a target they could not ignore. It became a desperation target, something that had to be destroyed even if it gutted the rebels in the process. The follow on weapons were built because like nukes, you already have the technology, and itís a pity to waste it when you still need it.

SHADOW MASS GENERATOR

I was stunned when I found out about this because militarily itís production might have made sense as an act of desperation, but deploying it made no military sense at all.

The time line if I am correct (Tell me if I am not) is; 40 years before Jedi Civil War, War of Exar Kun ends. Then 20 years later, the Mandalorians begin their expansion along the edge of the Republic. 12 years after this expansion, the Mandalorians attack. Four years after the original invasion, the Jedi enter the conflict. Four years after that, the Battle of Malachor.

Yet every story comment in TSL suggests that it was Bao-Dur who developed it, the Exile who ordered itís construction and actually ordered its deployment. Then ordered its use.

Why? If the war ends less than five months later, why deploy it at all? As bad as the Mandalorians were, as destitute as the Republic might have been, this is like loading an atomic bomb on a plane after the battle of midway. Why would the Republic be so desperate?

A lot of writers who have added to the Star Wars Canon know little or nothing about weapons development, and I have to add the writer of this game to that group. There must be a reason for such a thing, and the story fails for me in that specific instance. When I reached the denouement when Bao-Dur lays the blame for it on the Exile, I had to come up with a logical reason. As you go one reading my work (Blatant Plug!) You will see that I came up with the following;

Bao Dur pointed out what it could do (Still the equivalent of the Einstein letter to Roosevelt that caused the Manhattan Project to be formed) and Republic officials desperate, begin construction. This is before the Jedi even entered the war.

The Jedi enter the war (Equivalent of the Battle of Midway) War turns around. Project continues.

Just before Malachor. The Jedi, specifically Revan and the Exile see that the war will end if they can remove the Mandalorian fleet. Without it, the Mandalorians, like a lot of warrior races are faced with to options. The logical one practiced throughout history of offering up their king (Such as Shaka allowing himself to be assassinated so another could take his place) or the Gotterdamerung option, which is what Hitler wanted to do and failed, but was expected from the Japanese.

So Malachor was for one reason, to smash that last active fleet. Like the second Death Star, they had taken a position the enemy had to attack.

Both sides knew it could go either way. However I canít see the Republic with a lot more to lose committing every last ship they had. They had to have something to fall back on if the battle went against them. It would have done no good to send your entire fleet and suffer a Pyrric victory. You wouldnít have been able to finish the job. The bad guys would rebuild enough to keep it going for another couple of years, and you donít want that.

So another fleet was waiting in case Malachor failed. And the Exile orders the Shadow Mass Generator deployed. This is logical ONLY if total destruction of both fleets there would not affect the outcome, but the enemy must not be allowed to escape. So it is there like the atomic bomb in mid 1945. It can be used, but it is the necessity of saving lives that pushes Truman into using it.

But by the same token, unless you accept that even fighting a defensive war is evil, and everyone had already fallen to the dark side for daring to do so, using it means either the Republic was losing, or as I suggest, and accident. Some idiot pushed the button and blew away almost everyone, and as the one that sent it there the Exile gets the blame.

So if you create such a fiendish thingie, remember what I have said. k?


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
What we die for...
Acceptance
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Old 08-29-2006, 02:23 PM   #91
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The usage of the Mas Shadow Generator was neccessary. From one of Bao-Dur's dialogue files:

{Somewhat haunted, sleepless/restless}{Bao-Dur is in one of the rooms, staring at a panel, not doing repairs as usual, the Remote is missing, no one else is nearby, the ship is asleep}

Exile: What are you doing up?
Don't you ever sleep?
I didn't expect to see you awake.

Bao-Dur: {Emphasis on second line into next}I dreamt of Malachor. I remember the ships.

Bao-Dur: The last stand of the Republic. The tattered remnants of our fleet, the largest we could gather, but it was damaged, weakened and vulnerable.

Bao-Dur: The Mandalorians couldn't resist. They tore into us like beasts, shredding our ships to scrap as we fought back.

Bao-Dur: Yet this time, there were no reinforcements for either side. Revan had been delayed out-system by Mandalorian scout ships. By the time he arrived, it was too late.

Bao-Dur: And beyond Malachor, there were no more Mandalorians left to die.

Bao-Dur: I remember standing on the bridge with you and watching the destruction of the Republic - watching ships full of soldiers and Jedi burn and die.

Bao-Dur: I remember the look you had when you turned to me. It was the longest you'd ever looked at me.

Bao-Dur: You didn't say anything - just a nod.

Bao-Dur: {Brisker, as though the hard part of the story is over}Events move quickly then, even in my dreams. Flashes, explosions, you - falling. I could feel the pain around me.

Bao-Dur: And then the memory. The drifting hulks of the Mandalorian ships, the dead - allies, friends, strangers.

Bao-Dur: And then the echo. Lingering. The sound I awaken to in my nightmares.

That's all there is of relevance to the Mass Shadow Generator in there. From I've seen in the game and other dialogue, this is what happened:

The Mandalorians were routed, but not completely defeated. To end war soon as possible and to avoid having to follow the Mandalorians back into their homeland (the Unknown Regions, which was completely unfamiliar territory the Republic knew nothing of), Revan devised a trap that would let him completely crush the Mandalorians without risking his fleet too much. He sent a huge fleet to Malachor, and placed the soldiers and Jedi who weren't enitrely loyal to him in the positions where they had the greatest chance of being destroyed. As the battle progressed, the Mandalorians started to win, and the Exile to ordered the activation of the Mass Shadow Generator so the huge fleet the Republic gathered wouldn't be lost and so the Mandalorians could be defeated in one swift stroke. The activation of the weapon decimated the Mandalorians, and allowed the Republic to win the battle. The troops in that fleet not loyal to Revan were eradicated by the Mandalorians and the Mass Shadow Generator, because they had been placed at the front of the fleet.

The other Jedi who hadn't fallen to the dark side under Revan previously did then because of all the suffering, and because of the dark side energies Malachor possessed.


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Old 08-29-2006, 03:23 PM   #92
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Quote:
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The usage of the Mas Shadow Generator was neccessary. From one of Bao-Dur's dialogue files:

{Somewhat haunted, sleepless/restless}{Bao-Dur is in one of the rooms, staring at a panel, not doing repairs as usual, the Remote is missing, no one else is nearby, the ship is asleep}

Exile: What are you doing up?
Don't you ever sleep?
I didn't expect to see you awake.

Bao-Dur: {Emphasis on second line into next}I dreamt of Malachor. I remember the ships.

Bao-Dur: The last stand of the Republic. The tattered remnants of our fleet, the largest we could gather, but it was damaged, weakened and vulnerable.

Bao-Dur: The Mandalorians couldn't resist. They tore into us like beasts, shredding our ships to scrap as we fought back.

Bao-Dur: Yet this time, there were no reinforcements for either side. Revan had been delayed out-system by Mandalorian scout ships. By the time he arrived, it was too late.

Bao-Dur: And beyond Malachor, there were no more Mandalorians left to die.

Bao-Dur: I remember standing on the bridge with you and watching the destruction of the Republic - watching ships full of soldiers and Jedi burn and die.

Bao-Dur: I remember the look you had when you turned to me. It was the longest you'd ever looked at me.

Bao-Dur: You didn't say anything - just a nod.
I cut it off, because this is where it ended in the game as I saw it. None of what followed came up. As I said, if there was a cutscene I never saw it.

In my version, (KOTOR Excerpts) Revan was there, and that is what I used, because I had never seen this. Besides, I stand by my contention. Only an idiot would have used it, and I can't see any Jedi doing something like this unless their was no alternative.

So my version is going away from the game. Mea Culpa


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Old 08-29-2006, 03:56 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by machievelli
I cut it off, because this is where it ended in the game as I saw it. None of what followed came up. As I said, if there was a cutscene I never saw it.
There never was a cutscene of the Mass Shadow Generator being activated. Do you mean that at the point you got to in your first playthrough the game ended in your opinion?

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Originally Posted by machievelli
Besides, I stand by my contention. Only an idiot would have used it, and I can't see any Jedi doing something like this unless their was no alternative.
There wasn't. That situation was similar to the end of WWII - the enemy was severely weakened and was going to lose, but they were still fighting. To end the war in one swift stroke, a weapon of incredible destruction was used. If it hadn't been, the Mandalorians would have won the battle, severly crippled the Republic fleet, and killed off the commanders who were responsible for turning the tide of the war.


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Old 08-29-2006, 04:43 PM   #94
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There wasn't. That situation was similar to the end of WWII - the enemy was severely weakened and was going to lose, but they were still fighting. To end the war in one swift stroke, a weapon of incredible destruction was used. If it hadn't been, the Mandalorians would have won the battle, severly crippled the Republic fleet, and killed off the commanders who were responsible for turning the tide of the war.
First, I went my own way because A: As I have said before, the battle and reasoning made no military sense. Comparing the war to WWII, the invasion was equivilant of Pearl Harbor, The Jedi entering was Midway and Dxun was their Operation Pestilence, which was the invasion of Guadalcanal. But the only comparison for Malachor was Stalingrad. A battle that both sides fought because Neither couldn admit the failure of their views!

If you continue the Analogy, think of the Republic as the US, and the Mandalorians as the Japanese. They had not seriously ruined the Republic's capability to fight, only it's will. If we had lost Midway it would not have destroyed our ability to fight. the way and reason the of the battle even being fought made no military or strategic sense.

It wasn't that I ignored the game after the commentary of Malachor, I simply resufed to accept the way things are said to have gone. I cannot see someone everyone agreed was a tactical and strategic genius (Revan) putting herself in the position of fighting an unnecessary battle with an atomic bomb when a lightsaber would have done. So I rewrote the war to have it make sense.

As I said before, a lot of people who know nothing of war, or have no scruples about throwing aside the scruples a Jedi would have been taught for their story have added to the canon. As an example, Steven Barnes, who I love as a writer has the Jedi running a false flag opreration. Two Jedi show up on a planet vital to the Republic's interests but as Obi Wan is there as a diplomat trying to sway them another Jedi is busily creating a guerilla operation to destabilize the government they are talking to!

As An American I can see the hamhanded political maneuvering of an American State Department, but can you see the Jedi doing the same?


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Old 08-29-2006, 05:27 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by machievelli
First, I went my own way because A: As I have said before, the battle and reasoning made no military sense.
I suppose you could compare the Mandalorian Wars to WWII, although there were quite a few differences. I think Kursk would be a better comparison, as both were the most massive battles of the war, although with Malachor the war ended as soon as the battle did.

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the way and reason the of the battle even being fought made no military or strategic sense.
Malachor V and the Mandalorian Wars overall were not about the Mandalorians. It was nothing but a staging ground for Revan to get a large amount of the Republic and Jedi to be loyal to him.

I'll outline everything to do with the battle so I can clear this matter up:

The war is all but over, and Revan is the Supreme Commander of the Republic's fleet. This is 1945 for the Mandalorians, and they have no chance of victory. Their resources are bled up, they've lost the planets they controlled, and are incapable of fighting a prolonged war. The only possible chance they have at victory is a blitzkrieg-style attack on a large gathering of the Republic's fleet.

Realizing this, Revan sets a master trap. He has travelled to Malachor before, and knows how strong the dark side is. He will use the energies the planet possesses to completely convert the Jedi who followed him to the dark side. To make sure the Mandalorians come to Malachor, he marshalls the largest Republic fleet of the war, and brings his best commanders there, and has the Mass Shadow Generator created.

This is too tempting a target for the Mandalorians. If they win this battle, they might have a chance against the Republic. If not, they lose. But if things keep going the way they are, they'll lose anyway. The Mandalorians gather what's left of their entire fleet, and send it to Malachor, since the Republic has placed their best eggs in one basket.

The situation is a win-win one for Revan. If the Republic fleet defeats the Mandalorians, they win. If his fleet can't, the Mass Shadow Generator will be activated, and he'll win anyway, since his fleet can afford more losses, and the Republic has ships elsewhere in the galaxy. He also places ships with the Jedi and soldiers who would not betray the Republic at the head of the fleet, where they are at the gretest risk.

To protect himself from any possible harm, Revan lies about being off-system, and goes to the heart of Malachor V. He is completely safe, and draws upon the dark side energies the planet possesses. During the heat of the battle and amidst all the conflict, Revan uses his own power and the dark energies to corrupt the Jedi who followed him. After a whole war of conflict, and now direct corruption from Revan, the Jedi turn to the dark side.

With the Exile, the battle is going poorly. The Mandalorians are decimating her ships, and the battle will be lost. To avoid the loss of her fleet and possibly the Republic itself, she orders the activation of the Mass Shadow Generator. The tide of the battle turns. Revan comes out, and duels Mandalore personally. He kills him and takes the helmet, ensuring the Mandalorians will not rise again.

The end result: The Mandalorians are wiped out, and with the activation of the Mass Shadow Generator, he has purged his fleet of soldiers who are loyal to the Republic over him. The Jedi with him have fallen to the dark side. He then leads them into the Unknown Regions, claiming to see if any Mandalorians are still in their homelands. With his troops far away, he turn them into the Sith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by machievelli
I cannot see someone everyone agreed was a tactical and strategic genius (Revan) putting herself in the position of fighting an unnecessary battle with an atomic bomb when a lightsaber would have done. So I rewrote the war to have it make sense.
Neither could I, or the writers at Obsidian. Revan was not even present for most of the battle. Instead, he was at the core of the fifth planet, safe from all harm. Although Bao-Dur and other Republic soldiers thought he had been delayed out of the system, he was in truth under their noses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by machievelli
As An American I can see the hamhanded political maneuvering of an American State Department, but can you see the Jedi doing the same?
No. Jedi are pacifists who dislike concealment.


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Old 08-29-2006, 07:23 PM   #96
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My question ED, is this your 'take' on it, or verified with data I can get out of the game?

I can't see Revan falling to the dark side so readily. I always postulated that Revan had ended the war with a burning desire to fix the government that had caused so much crap to happen. After all thery'd fought the first four with the equivilant of General Elpihnstone or Bazin in charge.

I can't see her murdering so many of her troops in the hope that it would solidify her hold. The idea that she had already been there needs explanation as well. If this had been the case, she would not have needed to find the Star Forge and enlist the Sith. No more than Cincinnatus needed to gather an army after his last battle. He would have been handed the Roman Imperial Crown if he had wanted it. Instead, like my Exile, he turned around and walked away.

My version would explain why she (My version: personal pronouns interchangable) suddenly took it into her head to find the Star Forge. In my version it was that and having to enlist the Sith to have sufficient troops first that caused her fall to the dark side. Sort of like Anakin in ROTS where he fell because he believed Palpatine's lie that only he could save Padme from dying.

Let us just say, too many people play fast and loose with how a Jedi should be thinking and how easy it is to fall. It's like agreeing with the Christians that an unfair test of two people made sense in sentencing an entire race to torment.


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Last edited by machievelli; 08-29-2006 at 07:31 PM. Reason: got cut off...
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Old 08-29-2006, 07:32 PM   #97
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It is verified with data from the game, and with the information on KotOR II's official site. The only thing that is not explicity stated is Revan lying about where he was, but that was obvious.

Revan's fall to the dark side I do not think ahppened during the Mandalorian Wars. Vrook states that, and I agree. It's implied that happened anyway, because Kreia says that the Mandalorians Wars were a series of massacres Revan used to gain an army.

How Revan found out about the Star Forge is anyone's guess, but the results can't be denied.


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Old 08-29-2006, 08:57 PM   #98
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Then my books veer away, and to tell you the truth, I see no other way to write them.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

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Old 08-29-2006, 11:31 PM   #99
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Do you mean Revan's desire to fix the Republic's government? Your books don't veer away that much. Kreia says that Revan sacrificed himself and fell to the dark side only so he could fortify the Republic for the war against the True Sith.


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Old 08-29-2006, 11:35 PM   #100
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Do you mean Revan's desire to fix the Republic's government? Your books don't veer away that much. Kreia says that Revan sacrificed himself and fell to the dark side only so he could fortify the Republic for the war against the True Sith.

No I mean the 'let's slaughter off all of those that won't follow me at Malachor' part. My version had her fall after finding the Star Forge.

As I will point out in the segment with the Jedi Master on Nar Shaddaa, which I will post monentarily, fifty of the Jedi from the fleet at Malachor survived. They were the basis if that 'let's clean up this effing mess' which is what caused Revan to fall in my versions.


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Old 08-30-2006, 01:26 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by machievelli
No I mean the 'let's slaughter off all of those that won't follow me at Malachor' part. My version had her fall after finding the Star Forge.
What did you do about her/his/whatever's incentive to find the Star Forge, though?


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Old 08-30-2006, 04:32 AM   #102
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What did you do about her/his/whatever's incentive to find the Star Forge, though?
She found an ancient translation of a Sith book that spoke of the legends of cruel monsters that conquered many worlds. Since Dantooine was one of them, she investigated the tomb there, and found the first portion of the star map. The book spoke of creating things from thin air, and she assumed that meant anything.

Her intent was to find it, and if it could build ships, she was going to outfit the Republic with as many as she could grab. But she began to slide, thinking of giving all that largesss to idiots like the Senate, and decided to repair the government first.


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Old 09-10-2006, 06:47 PM   #103
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I'm surprised the topic of naval ranks hasn't been covered, so I thought I'd post it. I'll elaborate on some of the more distinct/important ones. From highest to lowest:

Supreme Commander - The Star Wars equivalent of Admiral of the Navy. It naturally implies supreme command over all fleets. As we all know, Revan also had the title. Wookieepedia says the rank gave him direct command over one third of the Republic's navy.

Admiral of the Navy - The equivalent of a six-star General. Ranks like that are rarely needed outside of major wars. I don't think it's used in Star Wars.

Grand Admiral - A very high rank granted only to the best of the best. The use of it by the Germans is very similar to what it was with the Empire. With both, a very small amount of people had it. I've not heard of the title being used anywhere other than Palpatin's empire. This rank is not used in the U.S. Navy.

Fleet Admiral - I've not seen this used many times in Star Wars. In the U.S. military, it's the equivalent of a General of the Army (5-star general).

Admiral - The equivalent of General. Whoever has it controls a large amount of ships. Titles that include Admiral in them are usually the equivalent of something that includes the title General. The rank of just Admiral is the equivalent of a 4-star general. In the U.S. Navy, lower Rear Admirals were equal in rank to Brigadier Generals but could have more stars, since that could be affected by the numbers and classes of ships they commanded. I have yet to see any statements about this being a fact in Star Wars, but it's likely.

Vice Admiral - The equivalent of a Lieuteneant General.

Rear Admiral (upper half) - Someone who commands ships at the back of an assault, but not the furthest rear.

Rear Admiral (lower half) - Someone who commands the ships at the furthest rear of an assault. It's the most junior of all the admiral ranks, and the people who have it can expect the least action in a battle, as they're commanding the ships at the rear. In the U.S. Navy, lower Rear Admirals could often command anti-submarine groups.

Commodore - The only place I've seen this in Star Wars was Wookieepedia. It's not used in the U.S. Navy either, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Someone who had it commanded several ships.

Captain - Someone who commands a ship. The equivalent to a Colonel.

Commander

Lieutenant Commander

Lieutenant

Lieutenant, Junior Grade - Sometimes nicknamed 'Lieutenant, Junior God', because the people who achieve the rank sometimes get stuck up about it.

Ensign - The most junior of all commissioned officer ranks.

Other things:

High Admiral - Wookieepedia claims this is a legitimate rank, but in Darksaber one of the Imperial warlords had it as a title. Since all of those warlords had ridiculous and nonexistent titles, I doubt that's authentic.


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Old 09-10-2006, 09:20 PM   #104
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Quote:
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Vice Admiral - The equivalent of a Lieuteneant General.

Rear Admiral (upper half) - Someone who commands ships at the back of an assault, but not the furthest rear.

Rear Admiral (lower half) - Somone who commands the ships at the furthest rear of an assault. It's the most junior of all the admiral ranks, and the people who have it can expect the least action in a battle, as they're commanding the ships at the rear.

Commodore - The only place I've seen this in Star Wars was Wookieepedia. It's not used in the U.S. Navy either, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Someone who had it commanded several ships.

Captain - Someone who commands a ship. The equivalent to a Colonel.
I was wondering for a moment if you were being facetious.

The admiral ranks (At least in the US Navy, are linked to the numbers and slasses of ships a commander of what ever rank commands.

In the US navy, the rank of commodore is subsumed by rear admiral lower half. As WEB Griffith pointed out, a lot of Brigadier Generals were upset when they found out that an RA lower was equal in rank, but still wears two stars.

In the modern US navy, a RA lower would command a standard surface action group or anti-submarine group, while a RA upper would command a Carrier Battle Group or Surface support group, which would include a battle ship or more. The Commander Destroyers (Responsilbe for all destroyers in the pacific would be a Vice Admiral, as would COMSUBPAC (COmmander Submarines,) or COM SUP Pac (Commander support vessels, PAcific) while a full Admiral would command the actual fleet as CincPac.

In the US we have exactly one fleet admiral in service. he is CNO.


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Old 09-10-2006, 09:33 PM   #105
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Quote:
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In the modern US navy, a RA lower would command a standard surface action group or anti-submarine group, while a RA upper would command a Carrier Battle Group or Surface support group, which would include a battle ship or more. {snip}
I guess I should've mentioned whether I was talking about Star Wars or the U.S. I'll fix that...


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Old 09-11-2006, 03:05 AM   #106
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I guess I should've mentioned whether I was talking about Star Wars or the U.S. I'll fix that...

Not a problem. Most people don't even know where the ranks came from. The 'Admiral' or Fleet admiral was in overall command in action, with his assistant (Or his 'vice') as second in command, and the rear Admiral was just the lowest ranked one on the totem pole, so saying he takes up the rear wasn't too far off. In fact the Germanic version actually works better because he could be conter-Admiral, or opposite, the man who commands the opposite wing in a fleet action.


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Old 09-13-2006, 09:03 AM   #107
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My little addition to this discussion is that the title Commodore is actually used in the US Navy for the commander of an Amphibious Squadron, or PHIBRON. The person's actual rank is Captain. For example, when I served on an amphibious assault ship from 99-03 we were with Amphibious Squadron 8. The commander of Amphibious Squadron 8 was Captain so and so. He was always addressed both by our CO and by us as Commodore.


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Old 09-14-2006, 01:10 AM   #108
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The Earth sucks;

or;

Commentary on gravity

Here I am flying along with my KOTOR II novel when suddenly I noticed a mistake worthy of the movie Citizen Kane.

I have a device creating a mass shadow equivalent to a B9 star with a surface gravity of 2 million standard gravities. Then I leave it on for, get this, 27 hours. When I wrote it, it bothered me, but couldnít figure out why. So I looked in my Van Nostrandís Scientific Encyclopedia. So here is what I did wrong;

Gravity is a force which on the surface of our planet exerts 9.88 meters per second per second acceleration. This means if you drop something from 30 meters off the ground, it falls 9.88 the first second, and 19.76 the second.

With me so far?

All right, with a force of 2 million gravities, after the first second, everything around it is now headed inward at 19760 kps. after ten seconds, it is traveling at 197600 kps.

But that second figure is 60 percent of light speed!

So after 27 hours, not only have you exceeded the Enstienian speed limit, but you have done so by over 6400 times!

Before you ask, yes, I am changing the segments where I fouled up.

But see, even we make mistakes.


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Old 09-14-2006, 01:32 AM   #109
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^^^^
ahh, now you run into the dilemma of the Black Hole where gravity is so great that not even light is fast enough to escape it. in that case, a more accurate name for the Mass Shadow generator would be the "Black Hole" generator.


See the struggle of the faithless lot as they negate their time
How low to sink to the depths of their frame of mind

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Old 09-14-2006, 11:27 AM   #110
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Quote:
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^^^^
ahh, now you run into the dilemma of the Black Hole where gravity is so great that not even light is fast enough to escape it. in that case, a more accurate name for the Mass Shadow generator would be the "Black Hole" generator.

technically yes. However neither Malachor V nor it's star would have survived it is what i was trying to say. There would be no Trayus Academy to find.


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Old 09-14-2006, 02:53 PM   #111
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indeed. i was just pointing out exactly what your original calculations had entailed.

and something that i should point out is:
spoiler:
...that the Mass Shadow Generator is never deactivated until the lightside ending.
of course, that's assuming that my understanding of the game is sound.


See the struggle of the faithless lot as they negate their time
How low to sink to the depths of their frame of mind

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Old 09-26-2006, 08:11 PM   #112
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okay experts here's one for you....do you think that in the realm of science fiction that one could rationalize a ship and possibly even droids being perserved over several thousand years?


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Old 09-26-2006, 09:19 PM   #113
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In Dune they had these devices called nullentropy fields, which generated a force field that stopped all form of aging for whatever it covered, but also froze it completely in place.

Or there's the self-repairing technology the Rakata had. As we saw in KotOR, their computers and droids could last millenia.

Or maybe that ship and those droids are extremely durable. This is science fiction, after all. You don't have to conform to what is and what isn't possible in our universe.


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Old 09-27-2006, 12:47 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediAthos
okay experts here's one for you....do you think that in the realm of science fiction that one could rationalize a ship and possibly even droids being perserved over several thousand years?

Has Solo and the lost Legacy. Driods from an empire that had died about 20,000 years earlier, if I remember correctly.

My disagreement with the concept is that it is like assuming a fighter from WWI would be an efficient tool facing a modern Jet. Technology would have surpassed them.

In the story above, it was a matter that the empire that had built them over engineered them so heavily that they were still highly efficient war machines still.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

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Old 09-27-2006, 02:10 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediAthos
okay experts here's one for you....do you think that in the realm of science fiction that one could rationalize a ship and possibly even droids being perserved over several thousand years?
I cannot remember the story it came from, but I do remember the technology it was called a "Smart Metal Maintinance & Repair System" basically nanotechnology that keeps a machine in peak condition and can even upgrade it over time with newer technologies the nanomachines encounter or sample.


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Old 09-27-2006, 04:29 AM   #116
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hmm....well, I have written something into the fic that I'm currently posting here and I was looking for some way to explain it, hence the reason I asked the question. I kind of like the explanation you referenced RH...the only thing I would have to do is work it into the story.


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Old 10-07-2006, 01:21 PM   #117
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A Long Time Ago...

Jedi Rolph Morkoi, pursued by a clone strike force makes a desperate leap into hyperspace without progamming his system. His ship comes out to close to a G0 class star.

Jettisoning his hyper-ring, he crashlands on an unknown planet, and is rescued by members of the US Navy from Philadelpiha Harbor in 1944-


You would be surprised how often I have seen something similar in the last year as the critic on three sites. Every writer forgot the three primary rules of writing in someone else's canon;

1: You must be true to the setting. If it's George Lucas' Star Wars, you cannot interject the United States in the 20th century into it.

2:You cannot merely leap Galaxy to Galaxy, which according to the opening credits of every Star Wars movie and game, is what is required.

3: Assuming the first two rules are true, the only way to do it-

Is to cheat.

Now, let's take the above commentary I did, and show you how it could work.

pursued by a clone strike force he makes a desperate leap into hyperspace without progamming his system.

Remember how much time Han Solo took in both Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back in programming his hyperdrive? Remember his comment to Luke. Improperly programming it could have been disastrous.

We never got a full explanation about how hyper-drive works, and quite frankly it would have been unnecessary in a movie format. You don't have as Gene Roddenberry said 'A town marshall explaining how a colt peacemaker works'. In my own KOTOR work I described making a blind jump as 'putting a pin in the galaxy blindfolded'.

But as a writer, that gives you 'wriggle room' to pull something like I did above. At least in space if not in space-time.

Now Michio Kaku who has continued Hawking's work suggests wormhole theory not only for distance but time as well. So USE it.

The jedi fighter is flying through an area of gravitationally disrupted space. It hits a gravity speed bump an the same time the pilot hits his unfocused hyperdrive. The chances of ending up anywhere he can get back from is already astronomical. Thuis last bump flips him toward a wormhole which can bridge not only intergalactic space but space-time as well. So he gets thrown, oh, 7,000 years into the past, and about 50 million light years, which would put him on the edge of what is called the 'neighborhood' galaxies.

Now how does he get back? Unless you now create a second sequence of events just as unlikely, he doesn't. Worse yet, no one can get him back out. But that is where the second paragraph come in;

Is rescued by members of the US Navy from Philadelpiha Harbor in 1944-

You see, at that location and time, the US government was working on a secret project dramatized in the movie The Philadelphia Experiment. It's still partially classified (What they were doing and what occurred is at least) so we don't know what happened. Maybe the experiment then throws our Jedi back to his own Galaxy near Alderaan.

So if you're going to cheat and use Earth come up with a logical reason why


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

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Old 10-13-2006, 06:54 PM   #118
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A note on Holidays;

Ever since the really bad Star Wars Christmas Special, I have been leery of using holiday garb for Star Wars. The idea that a furred race (The Wookie) would intentionally wear something from another culture (Long white choir robes no less) is absurd. Clothing is for two things alone, protection from weather and natural conditions, or as ornamentation. But think, can you see a Wookie wearing a three piece suit?

If you can, I suggest therapy.

Yet people persist in using two major holiday almost consistently, and one in an on again off again manner.

They are Halloween, Christmas, and Valentine's day.

Fine. But did any of you consider that Christmas is celebrated in less than half of the world? And Halloween celebrated in even less. Halloween in fact in primarily a holiday of the English speaking world.

Valentine's day oddly enough is celebrated here and in England, but outside of Japan, not much else of the world. The Japanese go so far as to break the holiday in half, one part on 14 February when the girl give the boy darker chocolates, and the 14th of March when the boy gives the girl white chocolate (Called oddly enough, white chocolate day).

So like the article above, here is how to cheat on holidays, getting them in, but at the same time not offending your friendly neighborhood critic.

don't use common trappings: Leave out the mistletoe, the Christmas Carols, the Christmas Tree, or any religious connotations. Every major religion on the planet has a holiday similar to Christmas, so you can get away with this. The same goes with Halloween, since you have Obon in August in Japan, The day of the Dead in November in the South American countries, and Halloween here. There are a lot of reasons to play dress up, so costume parties are not a problem.

The second possible way is to create the equvilant of the Christmas story but in the context of the society of Star Wars. The Original Santa Claus for example was a Turkish Archbishop who wandered the streets in disguise, and listened to the complaints of the people. After judging whether they deserved it or not, he would then roam the streets and throw coins over the back walls into their houses. Halloween started as a seasonal holiday which is linked to the dead, and claiming that the veil between worlds is thinnest that day. So every fire in the kingdom would be put out, then a massive bonfire (Sometimes with a few prisoners to toast) would be lit signifying that life goes on. The only part of Halloween that does not really translate is Trick or treat, but if you use your imaginations, you can come up with a logical reason for it.

So use your imaginations

If you want to use the holiday as it stands, expect me to complain.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
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Old 10-20-2006, 01:52 PM   #119
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As an addendum, if you have read my latest post in the Critis' Two Cents, there is a story entitled Telosian Festival of Fear by xenzen and Athenaprime. This is an excellent example of what I mean.


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

From the one who brought you;
What we die for...
Acceptance
KOTOR excerpts
Star Wars: The Beginning
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Old 10-22-2006, 05:14 AM   #120
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Dark Jedi, Dark Jedi, Dark Jedi

On the subject of Dark Jedi and Sith:

Contrary to KotOR, there actually is a difference between the two. It frustrated me to no end how I'd be fighting supposed Dark Jedi that were in reality Sith.

Enough of my rants, now for the differences:

Dark Jedi: These people are not Sith. Tecnically. That term can be given to any Force-sensitive being who uses the dark side of the Force, but is not a formal and full-fledged Sith. The Reborn in Jedi Outcast are Dark Jedi, for example. As are Joruus C'baoth, Lord Nyax, Lord Hethir, Mara Jade (when she was a Hand, that is), Sedriss, Lord Cronal and Tremayne to name a few.

Dark Jedi are rarely organized into groups, much less large ones. The only ones I can think of are the Reborn, the Disciples of Ragnos, the Shadow Academy, the Nightsisters (debatable), and Jerec's small band. This is only for organizations of Dark Jedi not controlled by a Sith, though.

Sith: A person who was formally accepted into one of the Sith Order's many incarnations. The Sith, as we know, have their own tradtions, customs, philosiphies, etc. As they are an organized group and have a past, they've in sense gone against the nature of the dark side, which is chaos. Although they've had a few civil wars, they obviously can be unified in large numbers.

The Sith have their share of secrets, and as we know, have developed many techniques, ideas, and artifacts. over the years. Being a cloistered order, those secrets have rarely found their way outside of their hands. There's a key difference between Dark Jedi and Sith; the later have a much greater amount of knowledge and pass it down to each other. Dark Jedi, on the other hand, can call upon the dark side but do not know it in the sense the Sith do. As many of them are self-taught and don't form groups easily, it's no wonder they're at a disadvantage compared to the Sith. I also have yet to hear of one who made a holocron.

That by no means prevents them from being powerful, though. Joruus C'baoth, for example, was more than a match for most Sith. He was even one of the few people that detonated in an explosion of dark side energy upon death. The last book he appears in claims he was more powerful than Palpatine at the end, but I doubt that.

More examples of their power were how some of Palpatine's adepts created the Chrysalides, Lord Cronal's strength in Sith alchemy, and how Luke thought going up against Lord Nyax in a one-on-one lightsaber duel was suicidal.

Dark Jedi organizations:

Though most were managed by Palpatine, here goes:

Dark Side Adepts: When Palpatine became the Emperor, the Sith had never before controlled such a large amount of territory. In addition, there were still quite a few Jedi who survived Order 66. The Sith couldn't easily manage that with just two people, so Sidious decided to solve his problem while by technicality not breaking the Rule of Two (something which he would often bend and infringe, but never outright break).

Dark Side Adept is generic term that any darksiders who served the Emperor were called. Subdivions are:

The Dark Side Elite - Seven powerful Dark Jedi handpicked by Palpatine to be part of this group. During most of Operation Shadow Hand, he didn't have a Sith apprentice to appoint to the second-highest position in his empire (Military Executor), so he chose people from here. Both of them, though, (Sedriss and Xecr Nist) were killed by Luke and Kam all in the same issue.

They used Vjun as their headquarters, and with Vader gone, took over a good amount of his power. In fact, Palpatine was distressed whenever he heard one died. Throughout Operation Shadow Hand, various members were killed by Luke, his Jedi, and two (technically) by Han. Once Palpatine died for good, the group wasn't reformed.

Inquisitors - One of the most important groups of darksiders. This was an elite division of Imperial Intelligence, restricted only to some of the most powerful Dark Jedi. Their jobs were to interrogate any victims Intelligence couldn't crack (though given their brutal methods, that was rare) so they for the most part helped finish Order 66. This group was large enough to the point that Vader wouldn't shed many tears if he heard one died, but still far too small be sent into open battle. Various ranks were:

Grand Inquisitor - handpicked by Palpatine, this person led the Inquisitorius. He was outranked only by a handful of individuals in the whole Empire.

High Inquisitor - another esteemed postion. The first people who earned it were personally trained by Vader in the ways of the dark side (but not the Sith).

Inquisitor - the regular, but still esteemed rank.

Apprentice Inquisitor - what the name implies.

Throughout the Empire's reign, the Inquisitors would track down any Jedi who survived Order 66, killing them when they could not be converted. Given how Jerec didn't even reach the rank of High Inquisitor, they must have been formidable. Another task of theirs was to find any prospective Force-sensitives and turn them to the dark side. Their position within the Empire was high, despite their small numbers. When the Empire retook Coruscant, they had a say into who the new Emperor would be. Of course, that was all moot once Palpatine returned.

Prophets of the Dark Side - this is a unique group. They were splinter faction of the Sith formed by Darth Millenial, who disagreed with the Rule of Two. They possessed a gift for seeing the future, and were also called the Secret Order of the Empire. Larger than the Inquisitorius but still small, their leader, Kadann, was probably one of the most powerful Force users in the galaxy in his time. Unfortunately for them, most were killed by the dark warrior Azrakel, and later on by Lumiya with her second apprentice Carnor Jax.

Emperor's Hands - although they were even fewer than the Inquisitorius, this group had a much less active role in the Empire. They were all top-secret spies who answered to Palpatine directly, and were given almlost unlimited authority to carry out his will as needed. If one of them wanted to kill all people on a planet who wore yellow because it served the Emperor's purposes, they could. They were unknown to almost all Imperials.

Other Dark Jedi - Palpatine had other Dark Jedi who answered to him that were not part of these groups. One example is Joruus C'baoth, and another is Azrkael.

The Royal Guard - I've seen in a few sources that they were required to be Force-sensitive, but there wasn't much detail.

Sovereign Protectors - the elite of the Royal Guard, I'm certain these few people were required to be Force-sensitive. They were given basic training in the dark side and the Force, though only a minimal amount.

Where they all came from:

Quite a few of Palpatine's Dark Jedi were Jedi who were converted to the dark side, or Force-sensitives he discovered during his reign. The Prohpets were already a functional group when he found them.

Other Dark Jedi organizations:

Jerec's band - seven Dark Jedi led by Jerec (which included him), they sought out the Valley of the Jedi. Six were killed by Kyle, and one of them when he turned back to the light side. None of them seemd to question Jerec.

The Dark Acolytes - during the Clone Wars, Dooku converted some Jedi and Force-sensitives to his cause. One of the most famous of these was Asajj Ventress, who gave Anakin the scar by his eye. They were all killed or abandoned the Seperatists by the war's end, to my knowledge.

The Legions of Lettow - headed by Xendor, these were the first of the Dark Jedi, and their descendants would later on become the Lords of the Sith. They were all wiped out or interbred with the Sith species.

The Nightsisters - a clan of Dathomiri witches who used the dark side. They were defeated during the crisis with the warlord Zsinj.

The Sorcerers of Tud - a group so stupid I'm not even going to talk about them.

There are others, but at this time at night, I can't recall them.


Quote:
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We will be great failures one day, you and I

Last edited by Emperor Devon; 11-29-2006 at 06:55 PM. Reason: typos
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