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Old 05-22-2006, 04:07 PM   #81
TK-8252
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Okay, so let's say just for argument's sake that ALL EVERY SINGLE ONE of the prisoners were found fighting in Afghanistan. That automatically makes them dangerous terrorists right?

How can you know that?

Let's say that you're a young Arab male living in a small Afghan town, and some Taliban fighters come through. They take your family at gunpoint and force you to take a gun and fight for the Taliban. And then you get caught and shipped to Guantanamo... is that fair??

Sound far-fetched? Well how can you possibly know that it is or isn't if no one in Guantanamo is given a trial??
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Old 05-22-2006, 05:33 PM   #82
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Who said life is fair? Name one 'war' where innocents weren't lost, you won't find one.

What you will find are wars that come close to that ideal, where the 'occupier' attempts and gives it's best shot at that. You can't be perfect, there will always be innocents lost.

The difference is that we try to avoid civilian casualties while they try to inflict them. That's the difference between the American military and the so called insurgents (terrorists).
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Old 05-22-2006, 06:29 PM   #83
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Agreed. We do not resort to human shields, IEDs, or anything of the kind. Why do you think precision-bombs were invented? Because we are humane.

I'm not going to repeat myself on the severity of sleep-deprevation anymore; you know my opinion by now. However, I would like to address several points.

1. How is the USA "picking" its POWs?

While I cannot speak for any of the soldiers, not being one and not seeing firsthand, I can still say that the US doesn't flip a coin, here. The point that must be gotten across is that those who are taken prisoner were doing something to hinder the U.S. efforts in a usually violent way, either directly or indirectly. If the U.S. did choose at random, anyone who had a long beard would probably be imprisoned. Which everyone knows well is not the case, simply proven by the fact that there are long-bearded Arabs interviewed every day and AFAIK none are in Guantanamo.

So, there has to, at the least, be a system for catching insurgents. What other system will work? As all of us know, the most convenient method is to take prisoner any who attack the U.S. and all who are known to mastermind it. This system is not perfect, as I'll explain in Point 2, but it is as good, really, as we can get.

2. Can innocents forced to fight be captured erroneously?

The easy answer is: Yes! It's perfectly possible (likely, even) that at least, say... 1 in 11 prisoners was imprisoned because he was forced to fight. (Please, don't quote me on the actual number, that's just off the top of my head.) This is regrettable. However, it is impossible to determine who is a legit terrorist and who is an unwilling fighter, for two reasons:

1) He did attack/mastermind an attack after all.

2) Legit terrorists may say that they were unwilling, though they may or may not be lying to get out of prison.

In conclusion, what we do in the process of taking prisoners is far from perfect, but it's like Norton Firewall: Not the best, but better than nothing.



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Old 05-22-2006, 06:42 PM   #84
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You know, this thread isn't about prisoners fighting back, or even about the methods that the US goes through in picking up the prisoners. It's about the fact that these prisoners are held without formal charges, without notification to anyone, and without a trial.

I do enjoy your efforts at not addressing the points that were brought up, though.

The ad hoc is pretty fun too. "We're not doing anything bad" ... "Yeah, well that's not really torture" ... "It's what's already going on so it's okay" ... "Yeah well life isn't fair"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
torchering
I know it's minor, but it's driving me crazy. Torturing. Torture.
Torcher is a noun for someone who sets things on fire with a torch.



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Old 05-22-2006, 06:56 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
Agreed. We do not resort to human shields, IEDs, or anything of the kind. Why do you think precision-bombs were invented? Because we are humane.
So you avoid killing civilians, but the first chance you get you torture captives? Being humane in one way doesn't make you humane in another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
While I cannot speak for any of the soldiers, not being one and not seeing firsthand, I can still say that the US doesn't flip a coin, here. The point that must be gotten across is that those who are taken prisoner were doing something to hinder the U.S. efforts in a usually violent way, either directly or indirectly. If the U.S. did choose at random, anyone who had a long beard would probably be imprisoned. Which everyone knows well is not the case, simply proven by the fact that there are long-bearded Arabs interviewed every day and AFAIK none are in Guantanamo.
I don't know much about army procedures, but I believe a POW is 'picked' surrending (you know, that thing where they drop their guns and put their hands up?) or by still being alive after being rendered unable to fight back (like getting knocked out or having limbs severed). Don't quote me on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
2. Can innocents forced to fight be captured erroneously?

The easy answer is: Yes! It's perfectly possible (likely, even) that at least, say... 1 in 11 prisoners was imprisoned because he was forced to fight. (Please, don't quote me on the actual number, that's just off the top of my head.) This is regrettable. However, it is impossible to determine who is a legit terrorist and who is an unwilling fighter, for two reasons:

1) He did attack/mastermind an attack after all.

2) Legit terrorists may say that they were unwilling, though they may or may not be lying to get out of prison.
Ever hear of child soldiers? Their all the rage in the Middle East, every dictator wants them. The idea is you run into a village and round up the boys, then you give them a few lessons in using a gun, and voila! instant army. All you need then is some indoctrination and everyone looks evil.

And since you don't know if they're evil or not, why not turn down the stereo a bit and let them get a 10 minute long nap every day or two?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
In conclusion, what we do in the process of taking prisoners is far from perfect, but it's like Norton Firewall: Not the best, but better than nothing.
Good to see you can take prisoners, now how about you stop torturing them?


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Old 05-22-2006, 07:09 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
Agreed. We do not resort to human shields, IEDs, or anything of the kind. Why do you think precision-bombs were invented? Because we are humane.
Except when said precision-bomb is sent to a village packed with women and children to kill a couple terrorists hiding among them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
The point that must be gotten across is that those who are taken prisoner were doing something to hinder the U.S. efforts in a usually violent way, either directly or indirectly.
Okay, but why don't they get a trial? Domestic criminals, even when they get caught on tape robbing a store or shooting at cops, still get trials (innocent until proven guilty, due process, etc.). And yet these guys in Guantanamo, as bad as they may or may not be, are just locked up and thrown away the key.
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Old 05-22-2006, 07:44 PM   #87
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ET: Ad hoc? I know it means for the purpose of... but I don't see what type of fallacy that correlates to... I think that's like status quo where the reasoning is to just let things remain the way they are...

Or maybe appeal to tradition..."we've done it in the past and we've been doing it so it's all good."

Quote:
I do enjoy your efforts at not addressing the points that were brought up, though.
Seconded.

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Old 05-22-2006, 09:39 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
You know, this thread isn't about prisoners fighting back, or even about the methods that the US goes through in picking up the prisoners. It's about the fact that these prisoners are held without formal charges, without notification to anyone, and without a trial.

I do enjoy your efforts at not addressing the points that were brought up, though.
Oh so instead of looking at the issue holisticaly we need to narrow it down to one thing? Seems to me that you're trying to limit the scope of the debate which reflects rather poorly.

Furthermore it's been explained time and again that THESE PRISONERS DO NOT HAVE POW STATUS.

They have no rights, the very fact that they exist, that we know about them and that they're not in a mass grave is a testament to America's mercy.

I wonder how Chechen prisoners are treated?

I know you tire of examples from across the world but when analyzing controversial issues in American politics I like to read whats going on else where, what other large nations do, to compare.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
I know it's minor, but it's driving me crazy. Torturing. Torture.
Torcher is a noun for someone who sets things on fire with a torch.
Thank you for the correction, I constantly misspell that word and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again.
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Old 05-22-2006, 11:57 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Windu
ET: Ad hoc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In philosophy and science, ad hoc often means the addition of corollary hypotheses or adjustment to a philosophical or scientific theory to save the theory from being falsified by compensating for anomalies not anticipated by the theory in its unmodified form.
Basically, they just add on to their argument insubstantial items after someone has bunked their original statements to prevent them from having to admit that Gitmo is a violation of basic human rights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
Oh so instead of looking at the issue holisticaly we need to narrow it down to one thing? Seems to me that you're trying to limit the scope of the debate which reflects rather poorly.
Not really, I'm trying to prevent you from running the debate in another direction and therefore avoiding having to address any of the points already brought up against your position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
Furthermore it's been explained time and again that THESE PRISONERS DO NOT HAVE POW STATUS.
And it's been explained that your definition of them NOT being POW's is at best a tenuous use of semantics.
We are currently engaged in a "War on Terror" If we catch people engaging in terrorist tactics, then they are a prisoner from the terrorist side of the "War on Terror". Saying that they don't count and therefore have NO rights just because they didn't have matching uniforms is ridiculous.
And even IF your semantics game wasn't lunacy, and they DON'T qualify as Prisoners of War, and technically have no rights, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't have rights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
and that they're not in a mass grave is a testament to America's mercy.
I sincerely hope that was at least a LITTLE bit of a joke. We didn't kill them, so look at our mercy? Even though we haven't proven any of them guilty of any crimes, we still are within our rights to just shoot them and bury them?

And I DON'T want to hear what other countries do with their prisoners. Just because we're not as bad as someone else, doesn't make us good. It just makes us slightly less bad.



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Old 05-23-2006, 03:56 AM   #90
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Regardless, those folks were caught on a battlefield...not on their computer blogging or holding protests.
I already covered that, but OK:

Do you know that? Heck, until only recently the public didn't even know the names of the captives! As I already said, the Road to Guantanamo captives are but one example. Sent to Guantanamo and tortured simply for being in a certain mosque?

Oh my God, look at all those people in that gun shop, they must be there because they're planning to buy guns to overthrow the government! Off to Guantanamo with 'em!

Quote:
They have no rights, the very fact that they exist, that we know about them and that they're not in a mass grave is a testament to America's mercy.
Already been refuted. Read my refutation, and the refutations of the others here, and address them instead of merely re-stating what you've already said.

Quote:
Who said life is fair?
I hate that cliché "argument".
It doesn't work here, budd'. Nice try, though.

Quote:
Name one 'war' where innocents weren't lost, you won't find one.
I'm thinking maybe the invasion of Denmark by the Nazis? It lasted only a few hours, with little resistance. But all that's off-topic. "People die in wars no matter how hard we try, so we can torture people" is a fallacious argument.

Quote:
What you will find are wars that come close to that ideal, where the 'occupier' attempts and gives it's best shot at that.
And then there's the US, bombing whole villages to kill a single Al-Q'aida officer, torturing prisoners, and generally not giving a damn about casualties, Geneva Conventions, the UN, civil rights, or anything else in their way.

Quote:
The difference is that we try to avoid civilian casualties (...)
That's new to me.

Quote:
That's the difference between the American military and the so called insurgents '(terrorists).'
What about insurgents who snipe American troops, lay mines in the path of British armour, and so on?

Quote:
Toms, which side are you on buddy? Is your opposition based on the principles of human rights or do you see the prisoners as minutemen defending their theocratic ideology?
Toms is on the side of civil rights, freedom, liberty, and so on. He's not defending their cause, he's defending their rights as human beings. Big difference.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 05-23-2006 at 05:11 AM.
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:08 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
People wonder why conservatives in this country often tell some liberals to move to Canada.....I know Toms is in the UK but there are alot of people that share similar feelings here.
I'm not at all surprised that your response to people who question your viewpoint would be to tell them to get the hell out of the country... its strange that those who claim to be most fervently in favour of freedom and democracy never seem to actually have any respect for the values they represent.
Anyone who tells liberals (or republicans, or anyone else) to "move to canada" loses all rights to voice their viewpoint.

Quote:
Toms, which side are you on buddy? Is your opposition based on the principles of human rights or do you see the prisoners as minutemen defending their theocratic ideology?
Not yours.
My UNDERSTANDING is based on the fact that I feel that prisoners taken from their own country, put in cages, tortured and held without trial have every right to attempt to fight back and escape.
I certainly would if I was in their position.

You brought up china previously. I suggest that YOU go to china, stand up for the rights of minorities and political activists.. stand in front of troops in tiananmen... get put in some chinese jail and treated inhumanely, possibly tortured, denied the right to a fair trial and see then how you feel about attempting to escape or fight back.
Not that you would have any of my sympathy as you would plainly be supporting enemies of the state, trying to undermine the government and obstructing the military from carrying out its patriotic duty.

Quote:
Of course the Americans are the new evil empire...oh we'll come an getcha...watch out!
Don't like it? Then don't act like one.



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Old 05-23-2006, 10:53 AM   #92
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Amnesty Internation condemns the US



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Old 05-23-2006, 04:14 PM   #93
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Quote:
You brought up china previously. I suggest that YOU go to china, stand up for the rights of minorities and political activists.. stand in front of troops in tiananmen... get put in some chinese jail and treated inhumanely, possibly tortured, denied the right to a fair trial and see then how you feel about attempting to escape or fight back.
Not that you would have any of my sympathy as you would plainly be supporting enemies of the state, trying to undermine the government and obstructing the military from carrying out its patriotic duty.
Wait wait wait wait... Let me make a pre-emptive guess as to the rebuttal...

"but you're not doing any terrorist activities or any violence so it's not justified!"


edit - ET: Thanks for clearing that up for me




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Old 05-24-2006, 04:26 AM   #94
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Quote:
I'm not at all surprised that your response to people who question your viewpoint would be to tell them to get the hell out of the country... its strange that those who claim to be most fervently in favour of freedom and democracy never seem to actually have any respect for the values they represent.
Anyone who tells liberals (or republicans, or anyone else) to "move to canada" loses all rights to voice their viewpoint.

Exactly.

Quote:
"Guantanamo prison camp is an aberration under international law," Khan told AP. "It places people outside the rule of law. And it sends a message to other regimes around the world -- like Egypt or China -- that they too can ignore human rights. They too can lock people up in the name of national security."
Exactly. Just like when the US invaded Iraq is created precedence that said "yes, it is OK to invade sovereign nations pre-emptively in violation of UN law!".

Growl.

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Old 05-28-2006, 07:08 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
Released by the ACLU? The same ACLU that attempted to make part of the pledge unconstitutional, for whatever reason?
Yep. That ACLU. The same ACLU, BTW, that defended the bastard Falwell... And the same ACLU that has repeatedly defended the rights of students to pray in extracurricular settings...

Quote:
I am amused, but I somehow doubt that the ACLU is above falsifying a document or twisting its meaning.
Quite a claim. Perchance you could procure some - you know - evidence that the ACLU has done so in the past? Or are you just pissed with them because they wiped their ass with Behe in Dover?

Quote:
Your article uses the ACLU as a source, and the ACLU is quite biased.
Biased. You use that word quite a lot. Please, do tell, in which way is the ACLU biased? And - perhaps more importantly - in which way does that affect the validity of their case?

If you don't like the messenger, go to the primary source.

Quote:
(BTW, Why the hell does the ACLU need so many damn websites? I find it funny that republicans need only one,
Uh-huh

Only one website indeed...

Quote:
Regardless of whether [the Guantanamo Bay Prison Camp is] right or wrong, I think Amnesty Intl. and the rest are wasting their time on 300 [prisoners of war] when they could be leveling criticism on China for jailing innocent bloggers.
I quote the Amnesty International 2006 Yearly Report [emphasis mine]:

Quote:
The authorities became increasingly intolerant of reporting which covered sensitive issues or questioned government policies. There was a renewed crackdown on journalists and the media. Those reporting on sensitive issues or who challenged the status quo were at risk of dismissal, arbitrary detention or imprisonment. Broadly defined “state secrets” offences continued to be used to prosecute journalists and reporters. Restrictions on Internet use were tightened and dozens of people remained behind bars for accessing or circulating politically sensitive information on-line.

* Journalist Shi Tao was sentenced to 10 years in prison in April for leaking “state secrets”. He had posted to an overseas website Communist Party instructions on how journalists should handle the 15th anniversary of the crackdown on the 1989 pro-democracy movement.
Hardly a positive review. But perhaps you'll claim that the Amnesty is responsible for the relative paucity of media coverage of their own reports?

Quote:
Or how about North Korea's real gulags?
Same report [still my emphasis]:

Quote:
Hundreds of North Koreans forcibly returned from China faced detention, torture or ill-treatment, and up to three years’ imprisonment in appalling conditions.

Prisoners reportedly died from malnutrition in labour camps for political prisoners and in detention centres, which were severely overcrowded. Prisoners charged with breaking prison rules had their food cut even further.
Nope, no criticism of the PRK at all. No, sir.

Quote:
How about Belarus?
Still the same report [and still my emphasis]:

Quote:
Opposition groups were harassed and threatened. Protests at the failure of investigations into the “disappearances” of four people, widely believed to have been killed by state agents, were among those that law enforcement officers suppressed with excessive force.

* The youth opposition movement Zubr recorded 417 incidents of harassment, including detention, of their members by the authorities between January and December. Three members were expelled from educational establishments for their political activities.
* In April police Special Forces (OMON) beat and detained peaceful demonstrators who had gathered on the 19th anniversary of the Chernobyl nuclear accident. A 14-year-old boy was allegedly pulled into a police van, so forcefully that ligaments in his hand were torn, and threatened for wearing a T-shirt bearing the slogan “Free Marinich”.
* On 7 July police dispersed a demonstration to commemorate the anniversary of the “disappearance” of television camera operator Dmitry Zavadsky in 2000. His wife, Svetlana Zavadskaya, was reportedly punched in the face by riot police officers.
* On 16 September police attempted to disrupt a demonstration to observe the anniversary of the “disappearance” of opposition leaders Viktor Gonchar and Anatoly Krasovsky in 1999, and reportedly beat five Zubr protesters. One of them, Mikita Sasim, was treated in hospital for head injuries.
But no, sirree, the Amnesty only criticises peaceloving democratic countries.

You want to hear something funny? These reports were only a single Google search away. Wanna make a pool on how long it took to find them?

Quote:
Furthermore, people in Gitmo were captured on a battlefield known as Afganistan. When someone is taken into custody during a war by a Geneva Convention signatory they are awarded rights only if:

1. They have papers proving that they are a soldier with a Geneva signatory.

2. They are wearing a uniform.
Funny that... Which Geneva Convention do you refer to? I happen to have found the text of the Geneva Convention that the rest of us refer to... (and that wasn't too hard either). I quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geneva Convention, Article 4, my emphasis
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

[...]

6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
And:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geneva Convention, Article 5, emphasis mine
Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.
Please, do comment on this turn of the evidence. I would really like to see you try to weasel your way out of ignore outright appropriately consider this very much unbiased and primary evidence.

And yes, for the record, I will hold you to this. In every single friggin' thread, and every single friggin' response I make to one of your posts, until you have satisfied either my request that you comment on what's actually written in the Geneva Convention and its consequence for the legality of the Guantanamo Bay Holding Facility (and the similiar internment camps around the world). Or until Hell freezes over. Or until I become convinced that you're just another troll like rccar. Whichever comes first.

I'm tired of seing dishonest reich-wing shills dodge and weave and obfusticate whenever somebody pins them to the wall with solid evidence.

Quote:
Combatants on the battlefield that are caught without their papers or uniform are considered spies at best.

This means that they can be lined up and shot immediately after there capture. This also means that the victor can torcher, degrade and basically do what ever they wish with the captured soldier.
Even if your classification were correct, which it manifestly is not, torture and degrading treatment of human being is still illegal. (Link courtesy of the Rehabilitation Centre for Torture Victims.)

Quote:
Instead, we put them up in Gitmo. They live in conditions that would be heaven compared to how the homeless in this country live
Which is either patently false or telling as to the nature of American society. Considering that much of America is really a developing country, I'm inclined towards the latter interpretation...

Quote:
Detainees in Gitmo are LUCKY to be there. They are LUCKY that they are torchered with sound, sleep deprivation..etc instead of electrodes on their crotch.
Oh, quite... They're lucky they're not in Abu Ghraib... Because there people are being tortured with electrodes on their privates.

Quote:
Furthermore many detainees at Gitmo have vowed to continue their Jihad.
Hard numbers, bitte. And credible sources.

Quote:
I know that I'm going to get a wave of criticism for this piece, feel free too... I'll be happy to respond.
I certainly do hope that you will... In particular the part about the real Geneva Conventions - as opposed to the FuxNewts-inspired faux ones you cited...

But I would prefer if you'd ditch the attempt to invoke the feeling that you're part of some unfairly-persecuted-and-besieged-minority. I've had enough of that kind of crap from people like you over the years, and I'm quite fed up with it, thank you very much.

Quote:
The issue isn't keeping them in prison, it's treating them humanely in prison. And I'm all for that.
Excuse me? The issue is very much that they are being kept in prison without a friggin' trial. That's against the Geneva Convention, it's against the International Charter of Human rights, it flies in the face of your own friggin' Declaration of Independence (which, I know, is not a legal document - then again, considering the breathtaking arrogance displayed by certain players on the international stage, I sometimes wonder if the UN Charter is a legal document, or just something Bush and Blair (and Fogh) wipe their asses with...).

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Old 06-22-2006, 02:56 PM   #96
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Major edit: Merged my three consecutive posts into one.

Our Search for Security Post-9/11.

Various speakers on the post-9/11 environment. A recommended watch if only for how Carol rebutts the "ticking time-bomb argument" of 24 at 1:23:50.

- - -

There's an article up at the thinking place on why I feel torture should never be allowed. It draws on statements from ACLU, Amnesty, and Civil Rights Watch. It's in Norwegian, but I can translate it if anyone's interested.

Quote:
Furthermore many detainees at Gitmo have vowed to continue their Jihad.
I noticed that, too: The victims of that particular kind of mercy have a tendency to develop this inexplicable hatred of the people handing out said mercy. It holds true for people at Guantanamo, abused prisoners in US jails (another far-too-common problem), and torture victims elsewhere in the world. Most of them for some inexplicable reason decide they want to kill the people taking care of them.

Not that I get it. If I was an Islamic prisoner and this merciful, friendly democracy tortured me, I'd worship them for the rest of my life. Especially if they routinely desecrated my Holy Book.

Seriously, though: It doesn't shouldn't take rocket scientists to gather that when you torture someone, you produce animosity towards yourself. Try beating someone up on the street and see how friendly they are towards you afterwards.

- - -

Yet another very good speech on torture.

The torture test (I got 5 of 5 ).

- - -

I translated my article on torture, just out of interest:

Quote:
When every second does not count
- why torture is illegal

In 24, every second counts. In reality, we've more time than that.

I'm currently planning a new TV series. It will revolve around the CTU unit in America, and will cover, hour by hour, the work of preventing a major terrorist attack. And it will be named 113880, after the number of hours from beginning to end.

That is, after all, how many hours it actually took to plan 9/11. 24 times 365 days times 13 years. Plus the extra days I did not include, which are caused by the phenomena of leap years. Not 24 hours.

I would like to thank right-wing-oriented FOX for giving me idea with their series 24, where Jack Bauer runs a torture centre to prevent an attack that will happen if the Geneva Convention isn't soundly broken and the "Amnesty Global" representative isn't tricked out of the building. Miracolously, it turns out that 99% of those who are put in custody (save from that one innocent employee) possess critical information about where the evil Arabs have hidden the atomic bomb. It also turns out that the only way to make them talk is to expose them to torture that'd make Red China's elite torturists blush.

The problem with 24 is that, according to focus groups performed by ACLU, a very large number of Americans have decided that torture can be allowed - and the main thing that convinced them, believe it or not, was the series 24.

It's been said that violent movies and games cause violence, and in this case it's actually true: A load of Americans support the Guantanamo torture due to the "ticking time-bomb scenario". This argument pictures a ticking bomb and asks if it might not be right to torture one single terrorist to save the lives of thousands of people.

Besides from the fact that most of those who are getting tortured in Guantanamo do not possess valuable information regarding common attacks, the main problem of the argument is that it does not actually take place in reality. We see this easier if we break the argument into, say, serven parts. In order to torture someone with the ticking time bomb-scenario as your justification, these points must be true:
  1. There has to exist a bomb.
  2. The bomb must actually go off unless disarmed.
  3. The bomb must be able to be disarmed if found.
  4. a. The prisoner you torture must know where the bomb is.
    b. His cohorts must not have removed, detonated, or disarmed it since then.
  5. The prisoner, when tortured, must reveal truthfully where the bomb is.
  6. If you get the information out of the prisoner, you still need to have time to disarm the bomb.
  7. There must be no other way of finding the bomb.

This scenario, with these seven points, has never and will never take place in reality. There is never going to be a moment where you only have a few hours left and must torture one or more detainees to learn where the bomb is.

Second, year-long research has shown one frightening thing: Torture cannot be controlled. If you give the go to practice torture only in emergencies, the requirements for when torture is allowed will become more and more loose, and the torture less and less mild. No one, not even the civilized democracies of Israel and USA, have ever managed to regulate and restrict torture. The research project "Stanford Prison Experiment" yielded the same result.

Where CTU in 24 can tame and regulate torture and only use it when it can save the world, reality is quite different. Torture control is like the control of a roaring avalanche, a sky-high tsunami-wave, or a run-away hundred-car freight train on its way down a long, steep slope.

That is why torture is never right.
That is why torture is illegal.

Source Material:
• Our Search for Security Post 9/11: Reflections on the Patriot Act, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and Beyond ("the ticking time-bomb argument is discussed in greater detail from 1:23:50).
• Amnesty International's "torture test").
• Stanford Prison Experiment.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 08-21-2006 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 08-15-2006, 06:15 PM   #97
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Luckily in 24 they always seem to be torturing real bad guys, not mistakenly torturing innocent people.

It will be interesting to see the next series of 24, where it appears the shoe may be on the other foot, as it looks like Jack is going to be imprisoned and tortured by the chinese authorities.. i wonder if that will be seen as a good thing?

It occurs to me that the countries that use torture HAVE been those that are most secure: communist russia, iran, syria, china, north korea, iraq. With their torture and secret police they have definately been more secure.. or amybe thats because they are also the countries with no freedom.



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Old 08-17-2006, 08:57 PM   #98
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Oh and Dagobahn, even IF detainees are being [tortured,] I couldn't care less.

They're not from a standing army and they fight like cowards.
Yeah, they hide among civilians, fail to wear uniforms, and set up ambushes. Pretty much like these guys:


Before you bite my head off, I'm not suggesting any moral relation between the minutemen and the partisans in, say, Lebanon. But their fighting methods, which you condemn, are more or less exactly the same as those your minutemen and Norway's resistance fighters used - except, of course, they didn't routinely kill civilians.

But yes, that's a statue of a cowardly Minuteman terrorist. Hiding among civilians in his cabin, fighting without uniform, hiding in bushes and then attacking without warning. They even attacked a merchant ship carrying tea and threw the cargo overboard (surely if Hezbollah fighters stormed a US ship carrying Coca-Cola in a Lebanese dock and threw it all on the sea, you'd call it terrorism?). So, Bush-supporters, it's your job to re-write "1775 American Revolution" to "1775 War on Terror" in all US History textbooks.

Yet another reason to hate France, too: They supported the Minuteman terrorist units. They hated the fact, like the Minutemen did, that King George loved freedom.

To illustrate my point further, here's what FOX News might have reported if they had been a British channel and the TV had been invented at the time:


Quote:
Combatants on the battlefield that are caught without their papers or uniform are considered spies at best.

This means that they can be lined up and shot immediately after there capture. This also means that the victor can torcher, degrade and basically do what ever they wish with the captured soldier.
Funny, then, how the US was so furious a few years ago when the crew of an AWACS plane over Chinese airspace crashed following a collision with a Chinese fighter jet and its crew of spies was detained by Red Chinese authorities. And those spies weren't even tortured.

So it's OK to detain and torture foreign "spies", but captured US spies need to be swiftly released. Hm-m-m.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 08-17-2006 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 10-01-2006, 12:52 PM   #99
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To be honest, I can't tell if that is sarcasm or not. However, I will say this: I believe that it was good that it was brought up, but it needs to drop. There are other world events in the world. I find it highly disturbing that the Guantanamo story has been covered more than five times as much as the 9/11 attacks. Oh, 3,000+ civilians dead? Meh, a week's coverage, since it's extra big. However, the idea that there may be a mistreatment of POW's? Gets more coverage than I can count; it feels like more than a year.
Just thought I'd address this before the thread died off.

You know what the people who survived 9/11, and the friends and family of those who died say? That there's too much coverage of 9/11. One girl who lost her father reported that her favourite channel post-9/11 was the Cooking Channel (or whatever its name). Not because she liked to cook, but because she had found out, after an eternity of browsing the channels, that it was the only "safe" channel to watch - the only one that did not broadcast her father's death.

Coverage≠Respect for victims. And that goes for all instances whe people die or get scarred for life.

Guantánamo's still being covered because it's still going on. Once the base stops abusing prisoners and the guilty are out of office, the coverage will stop. Until then, keep it up.

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