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Old 06-28-2006, 12:32 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
But that's the thing. If the Force really worked as a light/dark numbers game, then the Jedi would know that by being by far the most numerous, they were the ones causing the Force to be unbalanced. They know there can't be more than two Sith, and at that time they assumed they were extinct, meaning that they were unbalancing the Force as much as was possible.

So Anakin comes along who they believe is the Chosen One, who is supposed to bring balance to the Force. In your case, what would that require? The destruction of the Jedi Order! Why on earth would Qui-Gon and the rest of the Jedi be so hell bent (to the point of ignoring their own rules) on training someone who they know will destroy them?
How would they know that he would destroy them? They don't see the Force in the way I do, which is the see-saw analogy. I have no idea how they view it.

My point is, the Jedi had grown ignorant. The felt safe and content. They couldn't imagine ever being destroyed. They thought that training Anakin would balance the Force, but they thought that he had to be a Jedi to do so, thinking that he never could have joined the Sith. The thought that there were no Sith, and that by training Anakin as a jedi, he would remain in the Light. They had no idea what "bringing balance to the Force" meant. They assumed it was destroying the Sith after Naboo. The dark side was clouding everything also, making it harder for Yoda to look into the future.

The Jedi had no idea what would happen.

Also, the status of the Force could depend on how many good acts and evil acts there are in the universe.


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Old 06-28-2006, 02:43 PM   #42
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...Or how many echoes there are.

While I am loath to use Kreia as 'evidence' in these matters, the Jedi in TSL also mention wounds/echoes.

Over 4000 years, many more violent Jedi and Sith deaths occur (Seventh Battle of Ruusan, for example...), and it is possible that all these wounds cause the Force itself to be weaker...or more difficult to hear, is it not?



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Old 06-28-2006, 03:04 PM   #43
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I find it interesting that part of this argument consists of Canon movie materials vs Canon EU materials. Now I won't deny I'm entirely of the opinion that It was Luke who restored the balance to the force by convincing Anakin he still had good in him but that is an entirely different argument than this that I won't carry on here.

But I would have to support the fact that as of yet there is nothing that supports the claim that Anakin is the Sith'ari. Now do the remnants of the sith that that follow after Anakin in the EU have any likely hood of being stronger than Anakin and thus making the Sith stronger? I doubt that.

The fact that the only real mention of the Sith'Ari prophecy was in Kotor 1 would lead me to believe that it was an intentianal plot point for the Kotor games that was left in there. The movies focused on the "Chosen One" prophecy heavily. If the definition of Sith'Ari is to be believed that it means lord then maybe TSL was a further lead up to this very topic without any real explanation of the Sith'Ari included.

I would have to say there is not enough supporting evidence to place Anakin as the Sith'Ari as compared to the Anakin is the Chosen One which has enough arguments and facts on both sides of the scale.


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Old 06-28-2006, 05:54 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkkender
I find it interesting that part of this argument consists of Canon movie materials vs Canon EU materials. Now I won't deny I'm entirely of the opinion that It was Luke who restored the balance to the force by convincing Anakin he still had good in him but that is an entirely different argument than this that I won't carry on here.

But I would have to support the fact that as of yet there is nothing that supports the claim that Anakin is the Sith'ari. Now do the remnants of the sith that that follow after Anakin in the EU have any likely hood of being stronger than Anakin and thus making the Sith stronger? I doubt that.

The fact that the only real mention of the Sith'Ari prophecy was in Kotor 1 would lead me to believe that it was an intentianal plot point for the Kotor games that was left in there. The movies focused on the "Chosen One" prophecy heavily. If the definition of Sith'Ari is to be believed that it means lord then maybe TSL was a further lead up to this very topic without any real explanation of the Sith'Ari included.

I would have to say there is not enough supporting evidence to place Anakin as the Sith'Ari as compared to the Anakin is the Chosen One which has enough arguments and facts on both sides of the scale.
Well said Darkender. I pretty much agree with you about the Sith'ari being used for the KOTOR plotlines.


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Old 06-28-2006, 11:54 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
{snip}
The problem was the Jedi did not realize the path he would take on the road to fulfilling the prophecy.
{snip}
And herein lies the problem. Kenobi and presumably the other Jedi assumed that destroying the Sith meant that the Chosen One would never join them. On the surface that makes sense, but the prophecy never actually says that he wouldn't join them. It only says that he will destroy them. It was that mistaken assumption of the Jedi that proved to be fatal to them.
I believe the Sith prophecy was a "mistaken assumption". Both sects (Jedi/Sith) had a parallel prophecy told from each of their prospective (much like many religions). One had to be wrong and the Force threw the Jedi a very wicked curve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkkender
The fact that the only real mention of the Sith'Ari prophecy was in Kotor 1 would lead me to believe that it was an intentianal plot point for the Kotor games that was left in there. The movies focused on the "Chosen One" prophecy heavily. If the definition of Sith'Ari is to be believed that it means lord then maybe TSL was a further lead up to this very topic without any real explanation of the Sith'Ari included.
It seems to me Obsidian was just trying to connect KOTOR to the PT/OT by introducing the Sith version of the prophecy. But since it's such a small point so far in the KOTOR storyline we're probably making way too much of it.

EDIT: I'm currently reading Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader and came across this passage.

Sidious remembering the trip back from Mustafar:
Quote:
He recalled thinking: What if Anakin should die? How many years would he have to search for an apprentice even half as powerful in the Force, let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface aftera millennium of being stifled?
I bolded the interesting part.


Last edited by deathdisco; 06-29-2006 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 06-29-2006, 10:39 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthOxyClean
How would they know that he would destroy them?
They didn't know, and probably had no way to know. Isn't it funny how things work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthOxyClean
They don't see the Force in the way I do, which is the see-saw analogy. I have no idea how they view it.
They viewed as the natural Force and dark side, as I pointed out previously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthOxyClean
They had no idea what "bringing balance to the Force" meant. They assumed it was destroying the Sith after Naboo.
And they were right in both cases. Again, they just did not forsee the path things would take to get there.

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Originally Posted by DarthOxyClean
Also, the status of the Force could depend on how many good acts and evil acts there are in the universe.
Now you are just making stuff up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathdisco
quote: let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface aftera millennium of being stifled?
That is indeed very interesting (thanks for posting that deathdisco), for two reasons: first, that statement appears to say (as most would have suspected) that the claim that Plageus created Anakin is indeed false. Second, the Sith had their own view of what balance ment.

In the end it still turns out that the Sith view is incorrect. Ultimately, Anakin completely destroyed the Sith (as the Chosen One prophecy states), but did not completely destroy the Jedi (Luke remained). In the end only Luke and the "light side" (or more correctly, the natural state of the Force) remained. So in the "numbers game idea" there is still no balance.

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Old 06-29-2006, 01:31 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Prime
Now you are just making stuff up.
I believe the correct term is "speculating".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
in the end it still turns out that the Sith view is incorrect. Ultimately, Anakin completely destroyed the Sith (as the Chosen One prophecy states), but did not completely destroy the Jedi (Luke remained). In the end only Luke and the "light side" (or more correctly, the natural state of the Force) remained. So in the "numbers game idea" there is still no balance.
You know what, lets just call up George and ask him what the definition of "in balance" is. He is the only person who can really answer that. On second thought, we don't have his number. I do remember hearing George talking about the "balance", but I can't remember ahere it was or what he said. Does anybody know about that?

Anyways, I don't think that the Force can be balanced for any amount of time. There will always be more of one side than the other. The Jedi grow too numerous, and their numbers diminish, then the Sith grow too numerous, and then their numbers diminish, then the Jedi grow too numerous, then their numbers diminish, etc. Its the Force's version of a life cycle; just like wolves eat moose, which lowers the population of moose, then the wolves die because of the lack of moose, so the moose population rises. I've been searching for the correct scientific name for this chain of events for an hour, but i can't find it.


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Old 06-29-2006, 02:28 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
That is indeed very interesting (thanks for posting that deathdisco), for two reasons: first, that statement appears to say (as most would have suspected) that the claim that Plageus created Anakin is indeed false. Second, the Sith had their own view of what balance ment.
Then I should add to the original quote from the book with this:
Quote:
He recalled thinking: What if Anakin should die? How many years would he have to search for an apprentice even half as powerful in the Force, let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface aftera millennium of being stifled? None would be found. Sidious would have to discover a way to compel midi-chorians to do his bidding, and bring into being one as powerful as Anakin. {snip}..... For thousands of years, the ability to survive death had been perused by Sith and Jedi alike, and no one had been successful in discovering the secret. Beings had been saved from dying, but no one had cheated death. The most powerful of the ancient Sith lords had known the secret, but it had been lost, or rather, misplaced.
Don't know if that makes things clearer or not since there is no reference to Plagieous(sp?) and what he may have known in that passage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthOxyClean
You know what, lets just call up George and ask him what the definition of "in balance" is. He is the only person who can really answer that. On second thought, we don't have his number. I do remember hearing George talking about the "balance", but I can't remember ahere it was or what he said. Does anybody know about that?
George said Anakin fulfiled the prophecy and brought balance to the Force by destroying the Sith. It may have been on one of the DVD comentaries or bonus material.

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Old 06-29-2006, 02:37 PM   #49
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What I meant was if George Lucas explained what "Force in balance" meant.


Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you. Tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face. Tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you. And tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:27 PM   #50
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The only reason there were Sith on Korriban is because the True Sith didn't have a Hyperdrive! And so they put a colony on Korriban, they were "runnin" from the Celestials! and if they had a hyperdrive they didn't made "a pit-stop" on Korriban!
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:54 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthOxyClean
You know what, lets just call up George and ask him what the definition of "in balance" is. He is the only person who can really answer that.
He has already answered it on the small documentary on the VHS special edition of ANH:

Quote:
"Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings Balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

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Old 06-29-2006, 06:33 PM   #52
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^^^^
That is intresting. After Luke convinced Vader to turn, Vader kills Palpatine, and then the Force is balanced? Does that mean that Luke was a neutral Jedi? If he was a lightsider, this would make the Force unbalanced. The Force would be lightside heavy.

Not to mention Leia. She was also a potential Jedi at the end of Return of the Jedi. Therefore, could Luke be a lightsider, and Leia be a potential darksider? There could be a balance there.

If we go by EU, could Mara Jade be Luke's potential equal?



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Old 06-30-2006, 08:25 AM   #53
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^^^^
There is no "Lightside". There is just the Force and the Darkside is a corruption of the Force. When you remove the corruption you have balance.

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Old 06-30-2006, 11:16 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deathdisco
That is intresting. After Luke convinced Vader to turn, Vader kills Palpatine, and then the Force is balanced? Does that mean that Luke was a neutral Jedi? If he was a lightsider, this would make the Force unbalanced. The Force would be lightside heavy.

Not to mention Leia. She was also a potential Jedi at the end of Return of the Jedi. Therefore, could Luke be a lightsider, and Leia be a potential darksider? There could be a balance there.

If we go by EU, could Mara Jade be Luke's potential equal?
You are completely missing the point. The balance of the Force is not a numbers game!

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathdisco
^^^^
There is no "Lightside". There is just the Force and the Darkside is a corruption of the Force. When you remove the corruption you have balance.
That is exactly what I have been trying to point out!

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Old 06-30-2006, 01:51 PM   #55
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That is exactly what I have been trying to point out!
Oh. Well why didn't you just say so? I agree with you on that.


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Old 02-25-2009, 06:55 PM   #56
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Hi. Since I didn't want to waste forum space by creating a new thread, I decided to post in this one instead.

In my post I will attempt to not address the issues presented here but prove via logic and evidence that Darth Revan is without a doubt Sith'ari. He fulfills the following three qualifications:

1) Free of restrictions. This is something that immediately disqualifies Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. He was limited physically by his suit and mentally by Darth Sidious' control. Darth Bane has a historic limitation in that he is a product of Revan's legacy. Revan not only was true to himself and above the aspects of Light and Dark, but was only temporarily limited by the mind whip by the Jedi Council. He was in prime physical condition as well.

2) Destroy the Sith and make them stronger. All three candidates fulfill this qualification, but Revan has a trump card. Again, not only Darth Bane's, but Darth Vader's actions in this regard are products of Revan's legacy. It was Revan's ideals that shaped Darth Bane's Sith Order, and in turn that Order shaped Darth Vader.

3) Perfect being. Revan was in prime mental and physical condition, and was skilled at just about everything. Darth Bane was a pretty tough guy but was not the best persuader. As for Anakin, he was no thinker, lost all of his limbs, etc..

I will update my argument in the face of any challenges to them.

Here is another point I'd like to make:

Anakin is the Chosen One. Not necessarily. If anything, Luke has that role. Why? Because Luke is the catalyst for Anakin to bring down Palpatine...thus making the Light and Dark equally strong. In both cases (Sith'ari and Chosen One), Anakin seems to be the tool for the legacy/actions of others.


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Old 02-25-2009, 07:22 PM   #57
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i agree with you on your points and to add to what you have said. Darth bane was also physically limited by the bugs meant to kill him which ended up bonding to him and making the armour he has. (i'm not referring to Darth Krayt read the essential guide to characters) so thats another limitation he had. Revan was also a perfect being because he was incorruptable by the star forge, he could influence entire armies to follow him and he was never defeated in combat. (malak shot his ship and didnt even kill him). however Anakin was the chosen one IMO because he killed palpatine, not Luke. and after darth vader dies luke creates his new order which allows previously "dark side" activities to be allowed such as the use of force lightning and being allowed to marry and have children. if Anakin had not killed Palpatine and died himself then this new order would not have come about. and the light and dark would not have been brought to equilibrium.


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Old 02-26-2009, 11:22 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
Anakin is the Chosen One. Not necessarily. If anything, Luke has that role. Why? Because Luke is the catalyst for Anakin to bring down Palpatine...thus making the Light and Dark equally strong. In both cases (Sith'ari and Chosen One), Anakin seems to be the tool for the legacy/actions of others.
Lucas has already said that Anakin was the Chosen One and although I see your point thats really the end of that.


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Old 02-26-2009, 04:06 PM   #59
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i agree with you on your points and to add to what you have said. Darth bane was also physically limited by the bugs meant to kill him which ended up bonding to him and making the armour he has. (i'm not referring to Darth Krayt read the essential guide to characters) so thats another limitation he had.
Is it limiting? It could result in a dependency, but I'd have to research it.
Quote:
Revan was also a perfect being because he was incorruptable by the star forge, he could influence entire armies to follow him and he was never defeated in combat. (malak shot his ship and didnt even kill him).
Yep.
Quote:
however Anakin was the chosen one IMO because he killed palpatine, not Luke. and after darth vader dies luke creates his new order which allows previously "dark side" activities to be allowed such as the use of force lightning and being allowed to marry and have children. if Anakin had not killed Palpatine and died himself then this new order would not have come about. and the light and dark would not have been brought to equilibrium.
But Anakin's actions were always the result of others. He was a tool of destinies greater than his own. Had Luke not been there to inspire feelings of pity and regret in Anakin, Vader would have never turned away from the Sith.
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Lucas has already said that Anakin was the Chosen One and although I see your point thats really the end of that.
A very unfortunate statement, considering he is making (in my opinion) a very poorly developed and portrayed character one of the most important beings in his universe.


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Old 02-26-2009, 04:51 PM   #60
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i agree that his actions were because of others but he was the one who actually performed those actions without him they would not have happened.


There is no Palpatine. No Empire. No Jedi. There is no Light. No Dark... Just you, and I, here, now.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:01 PM   #61
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Anakin as the Chosen One? Who cares, it really wasn't that important. Both the Jedi and the Sith have had many rises and falls throughout galactic history. The era of the movies was only a small part, and only of minor notable significance in the records.

Jolee Bindo says it best: "Look, everybody always figures the time they live in is the most epic, most important age to end all ages. But tyrants and heroes rise and fall, and historians sort out the pieces."


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Old 02-26-2009, 07:07 PM   #62
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Anakin as the Chosen One? Who cares, it really wasn't that important. Both the Jedi and the Sith have had many rises and falls throughout galactic history. The era of the movies was only a small part, and only of minor notable significance in the records.

Jolee Bindo says it best: "Look, everybody always figures the time they live in is the most epic, most important age to end all ages. But tyrants and heroes rise and fall, and historians sort out the pieces."
very well said and thats a good quote. i agree with you on this i just like to argue my point.


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Old 02-28-2009, 03:56 AM   #63
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I would assume that the Sith'ari, if there really was one, had to be Revan. Kreia said that he was like looking into the heart of the Force... or so she says. That would justify that he came closer to overcoming all restrictions than any other Sith Lord there ever was.

He had made the Sith stronger than ever before... until the utterly incompetent Malak screwed everything up. Then he destroyed them either through light or dark side endings. Once the Sith reached the pinnacle of their decadence, they inevitably were destroyed by Revan's actions either as a dark or light side character. Perfect strength, perfect destiny.

Anakin by no means could have been the Sith'ari. He may have been the chosen one to the Jedi, but it means the chosen one could not have been the Sith'ari as well. Anakin was simply an arrogant Jedi and a pathetic sith in the end. Revan was a master of both sides of the Force spectrum, which is why I believe him to be the most qualified for the title.

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Old 02-28-2009, 04:25 AM   #64
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There is no Sith'ari.






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Old 02-28-2009, 10:22 AM   #65
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Let me pull up a profile on each of the individuals who have been proposed to be the one referred to in this "prophecy".

Exar Kun: From a certain point of view, could have qualified for the "destroyed the Sith" requirement when he killed Freedon Nadd's ghost. But while many of his accomplishments eclipsed those of Darth Revan (single-handedly enslaved the Massassi race, numerous large-scale uses of Sith magic and alchemy, the ability to directly attack people even as a Force ghost), he never "made the Sith stronger than before", so it can't be him.

Darth Revan: Following his redemption, Revan killed the Dark Lord of the Sith and his apprentice, destabilizing the Sith Empire greatly, but while he did lead the Sith in the past, he did not destroy the Sith, nor did he make them "stronger than before".

Darth Traya: May qualify for bringing about the destruction of the Sith when she manipulated the Exile into killing Sion and Nihilus, but since she was the leader of the Sith herself, the killing of her two apprentices is invalidated. She also did not make the Sith "stronger than before".

Darth Bane: Fits the criteria pretty well. He did kill off the Sith, and his incarnation of the Sith eventually led to the annihilation of the Jedi Order and permanent destruction of the Republic in the form of Darth Sidious.

Darth Sidious: There's not much reason to consider him, since he never destroyed the Sith, nor did he improve their chances in the future.

Darth Vader: Fits one third of the criteria. Destroyed the Sith with his redemption, but did not make them "stronger", nor did he ever even lead them in the first place.

Conclusion: Darth Bane is the only one who might have been the "Sith'ari", but chances are, the prophecy is untrue, since the Jedi Chosen One prophecy was as well (though it wasn't supposed to be so), thanks to the Post-Episode 6 EU.

Not only is there is no Sith'ari, but it also doesn't matter if there was.


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Old 02-28-2009, 04:20 PM   #66
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Anakin was simply an arrogant Jedi and a pathetic sith in the end.
How dare you! You have it backwards, anyway. He was a pathetic Jedi and an arrogant Sith. And he was freaking David Prowse and James Earl Jones. Those were the days of awesome Vader.


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Old 02-28-2009, 04:23 PM   #67
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How dare you! You have it backwards, anyway. He was a pathetic Jedi and an arrogant Sith. And he was freaking David Prowse and James Earl Jones. Those were the days of awesome Vader.
This is true. Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman's scenes together... they were like watching two trees.



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Old 03-01-2009, 05:50 PM   #68
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Old 03-01-2009, 07:38 PM   #69
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How dare you! You have it backwards.
Alright, it works just as well. Darth Vader was by far a miserable excuse for a Sith in the end. By no means could he have become the Sith'ari even if he had been his prime because he did not have the cunning or the intuition to overcome his limitations. He was the Emperor's slave and had not sought to become any more than that.
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:08 PM   #70
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was the Emperor's slave and had not sought to become any more than that.
...which is why he made no less than three attempts to collaborate with a potential apprentice in order to kill Sidious, right?


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Old 03-01-2009, 10:56 PM   #71
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...which is why he made no less than three attempts to collaborate with a potential apprentice in order to kill Sidious, right?
I'm sorry, but could you enlighten me on this? I don't recall anything like that from Vader. He did provide the Emperor with at least two apprentices that were meant to replace him, though.

He trained an apprentice for the purpose of rooting out Papatine's enemies. (Starkiller) Maybe he had intended to overthrow the Emperor, but in the end, Vader was just a coward or his mind was maladjusted.

He did try to convince his son to ally with him against the Emperor, but when he refused, Vader eventually delivered Luke to his master and said 'he [Palpatine] is your master now.' Surly he knew Luke was meant to take his place.

The third... who was the third guy? (I really don't know this)

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Old 03-01-2009, 11:27 PM   #72
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EDIT: On second thought, I don't want to instigate a tangent.



"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

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Old 03-02-2009, 01:17 AM   #73
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Let me pull up a profile on each of the individuals who have been proposed to be the one referred to in this "prophecy".
Okay.
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Exar Kun: From a certain point of view, could have qualified for the "destroyed the Sith" requirement when he killed Freedon Nadd's ghost.
I believe that destroying the Sith refers to the current Sith organization, not just one Dark Lord.
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But while many of his accomplishments eclipsed those of Darth Revan (single-handedly enslaved the Massassi race, numerous large-scale uses of Sith magic and alchemy, the ability to directly attack people even as a Force ghost), he never "made the Sith stronger than before", so it can't be him.
I fail to see how killing off one species and creating a whole lot of monsters eclipses Revan, who used Wounds in the Force to bend entire peoples to his will. As for this ghost thing, not particularly great because he was defeated in the end. No one truly beat Revan.
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Darth Revan: Following his redemption, Revan killed the Dark Lord of the Sith and his apprentice, destabilizing the Sith Empire greatly, but while he did lead the Sith in the past, he did not destroy the Sith, nor did he make them "stronger than before".
Leading the Sith does not disqualify one from being stronger. In addition destabilizing the Sith Empire destroyed much of the Sith at the time, but lead to them being quite powerful under the Triumvirate. He teachings also shaped Bane's order.
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Darth Traya: May qualify for bringing about the destruction of the Sith when she manipulated the Exile into killing Sion and Nihilus, but since she was the leader of the Sith herself, the killing of her two apprentices is invalidated. She also did not make the Sith "stronger than before".
Again, leading the Sith is not a disqualification.
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Darth Bane: Fits the criteria pretty well. He did kill off the Sith, and his incarnation of the Sith eventually led to the annihilation of the Jedi Order and permanent destruction of the Republic in the form of Darth Sidious.
As I said earlier, his actions are the result of Revan's legacy. Thus he is disqualified as he is not free from all restrictions.
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Darth Sidious: There's not much reason to consider him, since he never destroyed the Sith, nor did he improve their chances in the future.
True.
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Darth Vader: Fits one third of the criteria. Destroyed the Sith with his redemption, but did not make them "stronger", nor did he ever even lead them in the first place.
Actually he did destroy them and make them stronger (One Sith) but he was not free from all restrictions (far from it).
Quote:
Conclusion: Darth Bane is the only one who might have been the "Sith'ari", but chances are, the prophecy is untrue, since the Jedi Chosen One prophecy was as well (though it wasn't supposed to be so), thanks to the Post-Episode 6 EU.

Not only is there is no Sith'ari, but it also doesn't matter if there was.
I beg to differ. The Sith have historically been the result of the failure with the Jedi teachings, but they themselves have never achieved their goal of ultimate freedom. Sith'ari is the achievement of that goal, and anyone who fulfills that prophecy is pretty significant from where I'm standing.


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Old 03-02-2009, 09:41 AM   #74
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I fail to see how killing off one species and creating a whole lot of monsters eclipses Revan, who used Wounds in the Force to bend entire peoples to his will. As for this ghost thing, not particularly great because he was defeated in the end. No one truly beat Revan.
False. Revan was beaten by his apprentice's guile when Malak attacked his flagship, dethroning him and giving him his amnesia. That was most certainly a defeat, to say nothing of how he [Revan] never returned from the Unknown Regions and failed to stop the so-called True Sith.

Exar Kun himself has already rather obviously been demonstrated to be far more capable in the Force than Revan ever demonstrated (he's not the only one, either), but here's a two of his accomplishments:

1. The aforementioned single-handed enslavement of an entire planet.
2. Used a Sith holocron to corrupt numerous Jedi Knights and apprentices to his side at Ossus (comparable to Revan's use of Malachor V and the Mandalorian Wars in general). Afterward, he dispatched them to assassinate a number of Jedi Masters (an operation which turned out successfully).

Quote:
Leading the Sith does not disqualify one from being stronger. In addition destabilizing the Sith Empire destroyed much of the Sith at the time, but lead to them being quite powerful under the Triumvirate. He teachings also shaped Bane's order.
Revan didn't have anything to do with the formation of the Sith Triumvirate, and whether it was stronger than Revan's Sith Empire is debatable at best.

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As I said earlier, his actions are the result of Revan's legacy. Thus he is disqualified as he is not free from all restrictions.
So Bane's accomplishments don't count because he wasn't the very first Sith? Where's the logic in that?

Either way, Bane's order was not a result of Revan's "legacy". The only effect Revan had in regards to teachings was his statement that a master should only have one apprentice (which seems odd, since KOTOR 1 establishes at the very beginning that he himself had multiple apprentices simultaneously). He neither thought of nor established the Rule of Two, and it could be argued that his Order was just as flawed as Kaan's was.

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Actually he did destroy them and make them stronger (One Sith) but he was not free from all restrictions (far from it).
Darth Vader didn't have anything to do with Krayt's Sith Order.


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Old 03-02-2009, 10:47 AM   #75
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False. Revan was beaten by his apprentice's guile when Malak attacked his flagship, dethroning him and giving him his amnesia. That was most certainly a defeat, to say nothing of how he [Revan] never returned from the Unknown Regions and failed to stop the so-called True Sith.
What Malak did to Revan is ultimately insignificant. "Oh gee, you gave me amnesia and temporarily dethroned me. Yeah, all you really did was take away a temporary persona I was using and force me to relearn a bunch of stuff, thus making me come back stronger than before and really pissing me off." As for the True Sith, we don't know what happened there. Maybe Revan talked to the True Sith and found out that had a good vision for the Galaxy after all.
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Exar Kun himself has already rather obviously been demonstrated to be far more capable in the Force than Revan ever demonstrated (he's not the only one, either), but here's a two of his accomplishments:

1. The aforementioned single-handed enslavement of an entire planet.
2. Used a Sith holocron to corrupt numerous Jedi Knights and apprentices to his side at Ossus (comparable to Revan's use of Malachor V and the Mandalorian Wars in general). Afterward, he dispatched them to assassinate a number of Jedi Masters (an operation which turned out successfully).
As I said, Revan's Force Wounds easily outstrip the whole Massassi thing. Besides, a couple of kids were able to free their spirits afterwards. And Revan didn't just corrupt numerous Jedi Knights and apprentices, he corrupted most of them (not to mention the most powerful of them).
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Revan didn't have anything to do with the formation of the Sith Triumvirate, and whether it was stronger than Revan's Sith Empire is debatable at best.
The Triumvirate was formed out of the ruins of his Empire. And yes it was stronger, Kreia does tell you that the teachings of the Trayus Academy endanger life itself.
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So Bane's accomplishments don't count because he wasn't the very first Sith? Where's the logic in that?
Not the first Sith, but his ideology was the direct result of others. He owes Revan almost everything he learned that was significant. And the Brotherhood of Darkness was lame, any decent Dark Lord could have killed them. (Bane admits such.)
Quote:
Either way, Bane's order was not a result of Revan's "legacy". The only effect Revan had in regards to teachings was his statement that a master should only have one apprentice (which seems odd, since KOTOR 1 establishes at the very beginning that he himself had multiple apprentices simultaneously). He neither thought of nor established the Rule of Two, and it could be argued that his Order was just as flawed as Kaan's was.
The Rule of Two made the Sith strong enough to destroy both the Sith and the Republic, something that had never happened before.
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Darth Vader didn't have anything to do with Krayt's Sith Order.
Krayt became a Sith because Vader killed the Emperor.


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Old 03-02-2009, 10:52 AM   #76
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Krayt became a Sith because Vader killed the Emperor.
How, exactly?

Hett became a Sith because of Vergere's manipulations, and his uncontrolled rage for his captors.

How does Vader factor into any of that?






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Old 03-02-2009, 12:22 PM   #77
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Hett studied under the Holocron of XoXaan in order to use the power of the Ancient Sith to destroy the Emperor and save the Galaxy. When Vader killed the Emperor, Hett was upset because the only purpose he had in life at that time was to defeat the Sith, and he had been deprived of that. Then he was captured by the Vong and subject to the embrace of pain, talked with Vergere, and came out as Darth Krayt. If Vader had not killed the Emperor, Hett would have made the attempt.


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Old 03-02-2009, 12:41 PM   #78
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For one thing, part of the reason why Palpatine was building up the military might of the Empire was to keep the Vong at bay. Palpatine had heard rumours of the Vong invasion as early as 27 BBY.


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Old 03-02-2009, 02:01 PM   #79
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What Malak did to Revan is ultimately insignificant. "Oh gee, you gave me amnesia and temporarily dethroned me. Yeah, all you really did was take away a temporary persona I was using and force me to relearn a bunch of stuff, thus making me come back stronger than before and really pissing me off."
Regardless of whether it was a permanent defeat, it was still a defeat. And what do you mean by "temporary persona"? Are you trying to tell me that Revan was never really a Sith?

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As for the True Sith, we don't know what happened there. Maybe Revan talked to the True Sith and found out that had a good vision for the Galaxy after all.
Irrelevant speculation on your part.

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As I said, Revan's Force Wounds easily outstrip the whole Massassi thing.
The key word was single-handed. Kun didn't enslave the planet using an army or fleets. He did it himself. Besides, Revan's force wound (there was only one) isn't the same type of accomplishment as the Massassi ultimatum.

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And Revan didn't just corrupt numerous Jedi Knights and apprentices, he corrupted most of them (not to mention the most powerful of them).
Exar Kun's corruption operation was described as extending to the most promising of the Order's Jedi Knights and apprentices. I'd also like some evidence that Revan corrupted a majority of the Order and/or its best (I've played KOTOR II many times and don't get that indication).

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The Triumvirate was formed out of the ruins of his Empire. And yes it was stronger, Kreia does tell you that the teachings of the Trayus Academy endanger life itself.
Just because the Sith Triumvirate got its fleets and armies from what was left of Revan's Empire doesn't mean he had anything to do with its formation. Traya, Sion, and Nihilus did that themselves.

The Trayus Academy hardly has jack squat to do with the Sith Triumvirate. The Triumvirate's military was severely depleted compared to its predecessor, and the Trayus Academy's teachings don't seem to do it any good in that regard. If the Sith Triumvirate was stronger than the Empire, then it would have been able to continue to attack the Republic directly.

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Not the first Sith, but his ideology was the direct result of others.
Why does this not apply to Revan? You think his ideology wasn't a "direct result" of previous Sith?

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He owes Revan almost everything he learned that was significant.
If one actually pays attention to Revan's holocron as detailed in the first book of the Darth Bane trilogy, one notices that at no point does Revan say anything about a Rule of Two, which was the only major difference between Bane's Order and any other one.

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And the Brotherhood of Darkness was lame, any decent Dark Lord could have killed them. (Bane admits such.)
Such biased and slanted banter on the part of Bane or any other character has no effect on the facts. There is no evidence that any of the Sith Lords of the Brotherhood were significantly weaker than those of any preceding orders (that includes Revan's, whether you like it or not). The Brotherhood and Revan's Empire were both ruled by numerous Sith Lords, and there doesn't appear to be any major differences in leadership or organization other than distribution of titles (like "Dark Lord of the" Sith and "Darth") and other such nit-picks.


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Old 03-02-2009, 07:03 PM   #80
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Regardless of whether it was a permanent defeat, it was still a defeat. And what do you mean by "temporary persona"? Are you trying to tell me that Revan was never really a Sith?
Yes, I am, because you say you have played KOTOR II so you should know that Revan never "fell to the Dark Side". In fact, Revan being Sith'ari is a triumph over the flaw of the Sith: lack of compassion. The Sith are fueled by passion and because of such it is rare that you'll find a Jedi who can defeat a Sith Lord without using passion himself/herself. Take Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul: Obi-Wan won partially because he used his righteous rage over Qui-Gon's death to fuel his power.

Yet despite this, the Sith often become nothing more than animals. Why? Because they have no compassion to regulate their other emotions. Revan employed passion, but that included compassion for life. This is what makes him superior to Jedi and Sith alike.
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Irrelevant speculation on your part.
Perhaps. Still, we don't know what happened to Revan. For all we know, he actually was killed by Darth Nihilus and his skull made into a mask.
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The key word was single-handed. Kun didn't enslave the planet using an army or fleets. He did it himself. Besides, Revan's force wound (there was only one) isn't the same type of accomplishment as the Massassi ultimatum.
Between killing off one species or manipulating hundreds of species and possibly causing the death of the Force, which would you take?
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Exar Kun's corruption operation was described as extending to the most promising of the Order's Jedi Knights and apprentices. I'd also like some evidence that Revan corrupted a majority of the Order and/or its best (I've played KOTOR II many times and don't get that indication).
Revan's Empire was still acquiring Jedi who left the Order during the Jedi Civil War. If Kun's corruption was so great, then why did such powerful Jedi as Nomi Sunrider oppose him with sheer conviction? Even when Bastila resisted, she felt the call and Malak easily turned her. That is the gift of the Force Wounds, to have your enemy constantly losing its own to your hosts.
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Just because the Sith Triumvirate got its fleets and armies from what was left of Revan's Empire doesn't mean he had anything to do with its formation. Traya, Sion, and Nihilus did that themselves.
The Sith Assassins of the Triumvirate began under Revan, and were continued by the Triumvirate.
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The Trayus Academy hardly has jack squat to do with the Sith Triumvirate. The Triumvirate's military was severely depleted compared to its predecessor, and the Trayus Academy's teachings don't seem to do it any good in that regard. If the Sith Triumvirate was stronger than the Empire, then it would have been able to continue to attack the Republic directly.
Again, you claim to have played KOTOR II. The Triumvirate did give a **** about the Republic. For them it was all about killing the Jedi, which they did far more effectively than the Sith Empire under Revan. The Republic was already collapsing from its own issues, the Triumvirate didn't need to do anything about them. As Kreia said, it wasn't about the Republic since that government was a mere shell around the Jedi, which is what the Sith strive to destroy.

And the Trayus Academy has everything to do with the Triumvirate considering that that's where they learned the techniques they learned. Kreia tells you that the techniques employed by Nihilus and the Sith Assassins are beyond dangerous, they are a threat to life itself. Most Jedi and Sith use the Force to strength life, even in twisted ways. But the Triumvirate did the opposite: they used the Force to poison life through the empathic connections of the Force.
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Why does this not apply to Revan? You think his ideology wasn't a "direct result" of previous Sith?
The Rule of Two? No. Exar and Ulic happened to be the earliest incarnation, but Revan had the idea of limiting the Sith Lord to two individuals in order to establish stability in the Sith ranks: one who has the knowledge and power, the other seeking it. Exar and Ulic just happened to fall into the patern.
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If one actually pays attention to Revan's holocron as detailed in the first book of the Darth Bane trilogy, one notices that at no point does Revan say anything about a Rule of Two, which was the only major difference between Bane's Order and any other one.
It never says RULE OF TWO Copyright Darth Revan, but that's what the holocron's teachings were.
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Such biased and slanted banter on the part of Bane or any other character has no effect on the facts. There is no evidence that any of the Sith Lords of the Brotherhood were significantly weaker than those of any preceding orders (that includes Revan's, whether you like it or not). The Brotherhood and Revan's Empire were both ruled by numerous Sith Lords, and there doesn't appear to be any major differences in leadership or organization other than distribution of titles (like "Dark Lord of the" Sith and "Darth") and other such nit-picks.
How about the idea that "All Sith are equal"? That was the idea behind the Brotherhood, and they weren't doing all that well. The New Sith Empire before them nearly conquered the Republic but the Brotherhood was actively failing. And yes, Bane's comments matter here because it gives you an insight into what these Sith were becoming: "Dark prodigies of the Jedi". There was little to distinguish the two groups (especially since the Jedi had become more militant over time). The Brotherhood's leader Kaan was also insane by several accounts.


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