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Old 06-24-2006, 01:18 AM   #1
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FOX News

I just saw the movie Outfoxed today, it's a documentary/examination of Rupert Murdoch's "media empire". Besides being funny as hell (Bill O'Reilly needs to take a f***in' pill or something), it also reveals various memos and policies of FOX News regarding it's journalistic integrity (or lack thereof).


My question: what's your stance on journalism and the integrity of FOX News, or the media in general at this point in time?



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Old 06-24-2006, 01:25 AM   #2
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Nobody can dispute that Fox News approaches news from a conservative point of view. In the same way, nobody can dispute that the New York Times approaches news from a liberal point of view. There is room for both. I tire of the media people attacking each other as if how the other guy reported the news is the story. I wish they would give less opinion and more facts.


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Old 06-24-2006, 01:46 AM   #3
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I don't watch FOX because I don't have cable (This also means I can't watch South Park damnit), I prefer the BBC world service myself, they broadcast it at 10 PM on PBS, and by radio after 1 on WPR.
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Old 06-24-2006, 08:57 AM   #4
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B.B.C. is awesome for its relatively objective broadcasts ("relatively" as no one, of course, is 100% objective).

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"It's unfair, it's slanted and it's a hit job. And I haven't even seen it yet."
-Eric Shawn, FOX News Reporter
Moron.

Just like the White House spokesman on Fahrenheit: "We don't need to watch it to know it's wrong".

Quote:
My question: what's your stance on journalism and the integrity of FOX News, or the media in general at this point in time?
FOX "News" should be made to call themselves something else than a news program, if you ask me. Not that it'd make a difference, of course.

Heck, the media in general is out of control. They have no respect whatsoever for peoples' dignity, right of privacy, or feelings. I'm talking about both news-people and reality shows here.

Take disasters. Half a year after a mudslide that killed three here in Bergen, every time the media runs something about the slide they have to show pictures from it. Every time this friend of mine who lost her mom in the slide sees the pictures, all the horror comes back to her traumatized life. Ask anyone who's been in a disaster: 9/11, Katrina, New Orleans, when-the-tornade-came-to-that-little-village. Anyone.

It's been half a year, idiots. We've seen it and we know what it looks like. You can say that it's to draw viewers - I know that. It doesn't justify it. You can talk about freedom of the press - which'll get you nowhere as it's not a justification (it says what you can do versus what you should be able to do, which is what we're discussing).

I could gather up a thousand other examples. The media needs to be reeled in. People already going trough Hell after having lost their daughter don't need to have their burden strenghtened by being besieged in their own house by TV teams and seeing their dead kid whenever they turn their TVs on.

One simple suggestion, specifically, I've brought up before: Let people own the publication rights to their own lives. If I'm in a car accident and get wounded and someone says that "a car accident happened at x, injuring one", fine. If they want to take photos of me, my house, etc. against my will, less fine. No doing without my permission. Need-to-know basis. Of course, you'd just about have to hold all the journalists in the world at 200mm gunpoint to get them to submit to such a change, but there you have it.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 06-24-2006 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 06-24-2006, 09:58 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
If they want to take photos of me, my house, etc. against my will, less fine. No doing without my permission. Need-to-know basis. Of course, you'd just about have to hold all the journalists in the world at 200mm gunpoint to get them to submit to such a change, but there you have it.
I'm no law professor, but I was under the impression that the Right to Privacy or some such prevented News outlets from reporting on you without your permission, or at least reveal your personal information/pictures. I know if I randomly turned up in the news, certain people would be getting a lot of grief from me.


Personally, I don't follow the news. Only news I get is whatever I happen to see in my local newspaper, what's on the comcast.net webpage, the few random bits on the radio, or whatever Jon Stewart reports on the Daily Show.
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:58 AM   #6
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I'm no law professor, but I was under the impression that the Right to Privacy or some such prevented News outlets from reporting on you without your permission, or at least reveal your personal information/pictures. I know if I randomly turned up in the news, certain people would be getting a lot of grief from me.
According to Slate magazine (and reality, of course), you can't keep the media from posting pictures of you, etc. You're completely at their mercy, or, rather, the lack thereof. Kid gone? Nothing to stop the media from running pictures of her. Famous pop start? Paparrazi everywhere you go.

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Old 06-24-2006, 02:26 PM   #7
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Oh I'm sure if people really wanted to, they could fight back through the legal system and win, but it's a matter of money. If she can pull it off, it doesn't make it impossible.
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Old 06-24-2006, 04:45 PM   #8
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Personally, I find it strange how FOX News must claim they are "Fair and Balanced." No other news channels must do so in order to show they are impartial.

I've got a few things I'd like to point out that prove how FOX News is not as impartial as they'd want you to think...

- They fly the American flag in the top left corner of the screen. This shows that the station is biased as it is pro-America; if the station were unbiased it would not show allegiance to a country.

- They have forced all of their anchors and reporters to use the term "homicide bomber" instead of "suicide bomber" (even going as far as editing the quotes of politicians who use the proper term "suicide bomber"), as this is official Bush Administration rhetoric. For one, it doesn't even make sense. Someone who uses a bomb to commit homicide could be someone who throws a grenade, or detonates a roadside bomb. But they use the term to refer to a suicide bomber.

- They were quick to adopt the term "terrorist surveillance program" to refer to the warrantless NSA wiretapping. Again, this is official Bush Administration rhetoric. All other news channels use NSA surveillance program, NSA warrantless wiretapping, etc.

- Bill O'Reilly is a dickhead.
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Old 06-24-2006, 06:25 PM   #9
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That's fantastic (about Rowling). Good Freak, have a biscuit. And good Rowling, even if she did it mostly for her own kid.

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Personally, I find it strange how FOX News must claim they are "Fair and Balanced." No other news channels must do so in order to show they are impartial.
I guess it's akin to how North Korea calls itself democratic.

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- Bill O'Reilly is a dickhead.
Come now, it's the Senate.

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Old 06-24-2006, 06:33 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
- Bill O'Reilly is a dickhead.
I'm a right winger but must say I agree, the only thing he really said that makes sense is about how the Terri Shaivo case should be a reason for everone to have a living will.
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Old 06-24-2006, 10:18 PM   #11
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(...), but i feel that fox is the most unbias of the main news networks, whether you agree with me or not isnt important, thats just my opinion
Source: The Pub, GamingForums.

Who needs horror movies when you have these people? Seriously. Not to mention this complete re-defining of the news media's desired role:
Quote:
i.e. they are out to make money first and foremost. as such they market a product based to what their preceived customer likes. You can have the same story and two different agencies will report it differently based on their desired audiance.

Fox:US forces WMDs in the form of hundreds of Sarin field artillary shells have een unearthed...
CNN:Occupation forces unearthed decades old, degraded chemical artillary shells...
Al-Jazeera: US military 'discovered' shells in Iraq containing alledged chemicals. it comes at a time when the US government is in desperate need of good news....
And this (mistakes in spelling are theirs, not mine):
Quote:
ALL news is biased. News is a business
&
ts impossible to be completely unbias
"We can't do it perfectly, so why even try to do it right?

Again, who needs horror movies?

What the Heck do you say to people like that?!


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Old 06-25-2006, 08:25 AM   #12
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And here's the scary part, Dagobahn: Those - uh - people vote...

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Nobody can dispute that Fox News approaches news from a conservative point of view. In the same way, nobody can dispute that the New York Times approaches news from a liberal point of view.
Such equivocation is sickening.

Let me first point out that the NYT is not, by any sane standard, a left-wing outlet.

It is - however - a reality-based outlet. Unlike Fux News. Fux News is regularly caught red-handed in outright, obvious lies. FFS, they make up half their 'news' out of whole cloth.

That said, I was not impressed by the 'scholarship' employed in Outfoxed. Especially not when there are so much better references available.

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Old 06-26-2006, 04:44 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Nobody can dispute that Fox News approaches news from a conservative point of view.
Fox News approaches news from a more conservative perspective than other news outlets, but their conservatism is questionable...but, then, you have to be a conservative to get that one...


And ShadowTemplar, the New York Times is a liberal rag, whether you like it or not.

As far as the rest of the stuff I've seen here, it's just a bunch of juvenile nit-picking. Who cares if they have an American flag in their logo? They broadcast primarily in America. They know who their target audience is.

The main thing people are missing is this: Every mainstream media organization, whether it's cable news, newspapers, magazines, or even talk radio, exists for one reason, and only one reason: to make money. They're not there to give fair, balanced, unbiased news, they're there to sell commercials. And if FOX News thinks they have to give a more conservative view to sell more commercial time, then that's what they'll do. And if CNN thinks they have to give a more liberal view, then that's what they will do.

That's reality, ShadowTemplar.

And you won't find that printed in the New York Times, because they're just there to sell advertising, too.

So I say, who cares? If you don't like Fox News, don't watch it. Personally, I don't watch any cable news. It's all a waste of my time.


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Old 06-26-2006, 05:53 PM   #14
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Who cares if they have an American flag in their logo? They broadcast primarily in America. They know who their target audience is.
I care. It constitutes patriotism, which has nothing to do in a news channel which is supposed to be objective.

Quote:
The main thing people are missing is this: Every mainstream media organization, whether it's cable news, newspapers, magazines, or even talk radio, exists for one reason, and only one reason: to make money. They're not there to give fair, balanced, unbiased news (...)
Yes, actually they are. Whether or not they choose to succeed or fail miserably at it is another matter, but being informative and objective is what they're for. Not to entertain you and tell you you how absolutely right you are in your belief.

Watching FOX News is like going to Church and listening to the Reverend tell you what to believe. It's equally objective, open-minded, and inviting to debate. Except most Churches don't pretend they're news broadcasting facilities.

As a side note, FOX News should be made to drop the "News" and "Fair and balanced" lines. It's illegal to have a brand name that does not correctly represent what the product is. Akin to selling orange juice and saying on the container that it contains five sorts of fruits.

Quote:
And if FOX News thinks they have to give a more conservative view to sell more commercial time, then that's what they'll do. And if CNN thinks they have to give a more liberal view, then that's what they will do.
And that's the problem in a nutshell. Not that FOX News isn't about a 1000 times more conservative than CNN is liberal, but that's it.

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That's reality, ShadowTemplar.
I don't recall him, or any of us pretending otherwise?

Quote:
So I say, who cares?
And I say I do.

I want to be informed by someone who makes an attempt at being remotely objective. Which is why I prefer BBC over the US outlets.

Quote:
Let me first point out that the NYT is not, by any sane standard, a left-wing outlet.
Any news publication that does not 100% tolerate everything the Bush Administration does is liberal.

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Old 06-26-2006, 05:59 PM   #15
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EDIT: [snip]

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Originally Posted by rccar328
And ShadowTemplar, the New York Times is a liberal rag, whether you like it or not.
Nope. It's a reality-based newspaper - most of the time. Unlike Fux News, which is a lie-based propaganda sender. The NYT is actually considerably to the right of standard references like the BBC and Der Spiegel on a great many issues.

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As far as the rest of the stuff I've seen here, it's just a bunch of juvenile nit-picking.
Well, if all your nitpicking were in the same league as the scholarly reference I provided for my claim that Fux News deliberately and systematically lies to its viewers. [Deleted]As you amply demonstrate, you maintain something of a double standard w.r.t. the concept of 'nitpicking...'

So, to summarise: What is your position on the credibility and general trustworthyness of Fux News, in light of this report?

Quote:
The main thing people are missing is this: Every mainstream media organization,
When did Fux News become 'mainstream'?

Quote:
whether it's cable news, newspapers, magazines, or even talk radio, exists for one reason, and only one reason: to make money.
A wonderful admission. And the best possible argument for a strong, independent, publicly financed news provider, like the BBC.

Quote:
And if FOX News thinks they have to give a more conservative view to sell more commercial time, then that's what they'll do. And if CNN thinks they have to give a more liberal view, then that's what they will do.
And the corrollary to that statement is that if any 'news' provider believes that it can make money by lying through its teeth, then it'll do so. Which, incidentially, is what Fux News and the Corporate News Network do all the time...

Quote:
And you won't find that printed in the New York Times, because they're just there to sell advertising, too.
Curiously, though, it is a consideration that you will actually find in places like the BBC and Der Spiegel...

Quote:
So I say, who cares? If you don't like Fox News, don't watch it.
The problem is not that 'I don't like it' - and for the record, I resent your continuing and pathetic insinuations that everyone who doesn't agree with you is motivated by the same kind of unthinking (quasi-)religious political 'reasoning' that your posts continue to evidence.

The problem with Fux News is that they lie and lie and lie again - and with a straight face too. And when they've been indisputably caught lying, they continue to lie - they just turn up the volume and venom a little.

Oh, and Dagobahn, I fail to see what's the least 'patriotic' about Fux News' use of the flag:



In point of fact, using the flag to promote fascism is pretty close to being the most unpatriotic thing I can think of off the top of my head...


Last edited by SkinWalker; 06-27-2006 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Deleted Flame
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Old 06-26-2006, 06:33 PM   #16
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OUTFOXED trailer, for reference.

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The problem is not that 'I don't like it' - and for the record, I resent your continuing and pathetic insinuations that everyone who doesn't agree with you is motivated by the same kind of unthinking (quasi-)religious political 'reasoning' that your posts continue to evidence.
An all-too-common problem, unfortunately.

By all means, don't attack the movie, just go with attacking liberals. The best defence and so on. Example:

Quote:
True, you have every right not to like any channel if you feel like it, but you don't have the right to trash or question the integrity of Bill O'Reilly or anybody else just because their political beliefs differ from yours (we don't attack him "just because he disagrees with us"). Keith Olbermann spends almost every episode of his Countdown show on MSNBC trashing O'Reilly and the FNC (two wrongs don't make a right). No wonder MSNBC is dead last in the cable news ratings and Fox is still number 1 (jumping to conclusions). This films is total slander and Liberal trash and propaganda just like all of Michael "The Buffet King" Moore's films are.
Three elementary fallacies in one paragraph. New freaking record.

I also liked the ones about the "forged memos". Facts got you cornered? Pull the lie card! It's become the freaking neo-con strategy of choice: If something has you against the wall, just say that the reasoning for it is based on liberal lies. There, it's out of the world.

Oh, and I just don't get YOUTUBE's e-mail confirmation system, so if someone would kindly post this for me as a commentary to the trailer, I'd very much appreciate it.

Quote:
"So this is what liberals think of free speech huh?"
I find it amazing that a RIGHT-WINGER, under Bush who calls all dissenters "anti-American" and who pushed through the PATRIOT ACT, somehow finds the nerve to rant about LIBERAL "feelings on freedom of speech".

No, we do not attack freedom of speech, smoothie. We leave that to you. We're busy attacking the Neo-con propaganda machine so that we can have us some OBJECTIVE and BALANCED news sources meant to INFORM, not PREACH.
Quote:
Oh, and Dagobahn, I fail to see what's the least 'patriotic' about Fux News' use of the flag:

In point of fact, using the flag to promote fascism is pretty close to being the most unpatriotic thing I can think of off the top of my head...
I meant that it appeals to the right-wingers' impression of patriotism. I agree it is abuse of a flag symbolizing democracy.


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Old 06-27-2006, 05:46 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Also to all you people out there who thank that I am a UFO nut or a conspiracy nut. Then I say seeing ,feeling, smelling, tasting or hearing is not always believing.
Well, whatever floats your boat.

One thing you might want to keep in mind, though, is that using a lot of colours does not necessarily enhance readability...

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Old 06-27-2006, 10:26 AM   #18
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Also, your entire post is only vaguely connected to this thread.

Seems like a topic you should make a thread for.



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Old 06-27-2006, 11:47 AM   #19
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Well, the thread is about FOX and the media in general, so technically I don't think there's something wrong with posting what he posted. Except it could turn the thread into a UFO discussion really fast, of course.

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I just don't trust the media or the goverments of this planet. I think they both lie about 80% est. of the information that they convey to the public in general.
Not more?!
(Joking).


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Old 06-27-2006, 02:54 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
So I say, who cares? If you don't like Fox News, don't watch it. Personally, I don't watch any cable news. It's all a waste of my time.
I care because 70% of my neighbors believe it to be the pure, unvarnished truth. If they're allowed to grab a larger percent, America = ****ed.

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Old 06-27-2006, 04:34 PM   #21
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I care because 70% of my neighbors believe it to be the pure, unvarnished truth.
Put a copy of the PIPA/Knowledge Network report in [next to] each of their mailboxes. Chances are they'll disregard it as Liberal Conspiracy Theories as it proves them wrong, but it's worth a try.

Particularly, I'm frightened by this:
FOX News Propaganda Machine: 80% of viewers had at least one serious misperception about the Iraq War.
PBS: 23% of viewers had at least one serious misperception about the Iraq War.

Said misperceptions:
  1. WMDs found in Iraq by US forces post-invasion.
  2. Iraq collaborated with the Al-Q'aida terrorist network.
  3. The World's Public Opinion favoured a US invasion of Iraq (36% of Bush supporters believed so at the time of the poll).
I'd say that speaks quite clearly. Especially since FOX News P.M. presents the misperceptions as "facts".

I had my respect for FOX News P.M. greatly increased at reading this. If they manage to convince people that the world in general favours the Iraqi invasion, they should be nominated for the Herman Göring Medal of Exceeding Propaganda Work. They already won Mao Zedong's Price for Best Non-Chinese Propaganda Machine, right?


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Old 06-27-2006, 05:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Put a copy of the PIPA/Knowledge Network report in each of their mailboxes. Chances are they'll disregard it as Liberal Conspiracy Theories as it proves them wrong, but it's worth a try.
You could get in trouble for tampering with federal property, since a mailbox is federal property.
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Old 06-27-2006, 05:56 PM   #23
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I don't see any reason for all of the hostility toward my post. I'm not defending Fox news...all I'm saying is that all news organizations, no matter how biased you think they are or what biases you think they have or (this is for you ShadowTemplar) whether you think they are mainstream or not, expecting any news organization to be pure as the wind driven snow is both unrealistic and naive. These are businesses. As a marketting strategy for their business, Fox News markets themselves as "fair and balanced." Does that mean that they are absolutely 'fair and balanced?' No. But they don't seem to have any problems selling their goods to the general public.

And Dagobahn Eagle, you say you want to be informed by someone who is 'remotely objective?' Well, if you don't think Fox News is, then *gasp* don't watch them! It's called the free market...and, strangely enough, it works. It's not like Fox News has a corner on the news market - heck, they aren't even the only 24-hour cable news channel. And if you think they're out there lying to the public, then tell RoxStar, tell those neighbors about it. Word-of-mouth is one of the one of the most effective marketting tools out there, and it can work either for or against any business.


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Old 06-27-2006, 06:10 PM   #24
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I'm not defending Fox news...
It definetly seems to me you are.

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all I'm saying is that all news organizations, no matter how biased you think they are or what biases you think they have or (this is for you ShadowTemplar) whether you think they are mainstream or not, expecting any news organization to be pure as the wind driven snow is both unrealistic and naive.
Maybe in the US it is. Yes, most news organizations all over the world have their faults. Most of them have very little respect for people. None of them are completely objective. And many of them are for entertainment just as much as information.

But many of them try to be objective. Except, of course, for the official propaganda machines in dictatorships such as North Korea and unofficial propaganda machines such as FOX News.

In most free countries, believe it or not, news are, as they should be, something you watch to be informed of current events in an objective way so that you can form an opinion.

FOX News is run just as much by the Republican Party as by its owner. It even takes direct orders from them.

Quote:
These are businesses. As a marketting strategy for their business, Fox News markets themselves as "fair and balanced." Does that mean that they are absolutely 'fair and balanced?' No. But they don't seem to have any problems selling their goods to the general public.
Probably because the "general public" watching FOX is dumb enough, to be frank, to believe the slogan?

And as I said, that's the problem: That they are businesses just trying to make money, rather than businesses trying to do what they should do: Inform.

Quote:
And Dagobahn Eagle, you say you want to be informed by someone who is 'remotely objective?' Well, if you don't think Fox News is, then *gasp* don't watch them!
Ludicrous argument. They'll keep lying and broadcasting biased propaganda disguised as news no matter how little I watch them. If it was a matter of them not suiting my taste, I'd not watch them. This is not the case, however.

Quote:
And if you think they're out there lying to the public, then tell RoxStar, tell those neighbors about it. Word-of-mouth is one of the one of the most effective marketting tools out there, and it can work either for or against any business.
I don't "think" they're lying to the public - I know they're lying to the public.

And yes, I'm sure as H*** making that view known.

Quote:
It's not like Fox News has a corner on the news market - heck, they aren't even the only 24-hour cable news channel.
They are very influential. Don't for a second believe otherwise.

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Old 06-27-2006, 06:18 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
I meant that it appeals to the right-wingers' impression of patriotism. I agree it is abuse of a flag symbolizing democracy.
I think Faux's use of the flag is desecration. Maybe once the ammendment is passed, Faux News will be prosecuted for it.
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Old 06-27-2006, 11:17 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
Such equivocation is sickening.
Pointing out both sides is not equivocation. I was demonstrating that bias can run more than one way.

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Let me first point out that the NYT is not, by any sane standard, a left-wing outlet.
To most it is. To you it isn't because it's to the right of you


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Show me a man who is forty and not a conservative, and I will show you a man with no brain.

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Old 06-27-2006, 11:41 PM   #27
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You'de have an easier time getting people to see your point of view if you would use some grammar. It's very hard to understand one big syntax error.
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Old 06-28-2006, 03:15 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by rccar328
I don't see any reason for all of the hostility toward my post. I'm not defending Fox news...
Nope. And you know what? That's a characteristic feature of your posts: You don't engage the subject at all. You simply shout (loudly) that THEYDOITASWELL!!! Sorry, but that does not constitute an argument (especially when it is demonstrably a lie). So take a cookie and stop whining, [Deleted].

Oh, and by the way, I left a question for you a couple of posts upthread. A question that you declined to answer. So, just to give you a second chance to demonstrate to one and all why you're an intellectually and morally bankrupt [Deleted], I'll reiterate:

Quote:
So, to summarise: What is your position on the credibility and general trustworthyness of Fux News, in light of this report?


Quote:
all I'm saying is that all news organizations,
First error. Fux News is not a news organisation. It's a propaganda sender.

Quote:
no matter how biased you think they are or what biases you think they have or [...] whether you think they are mainstream or not, expecting any news organization to be pure as the wind driven snow is both unrealistic and naive.


Quote:
(this is for you ShadowTemplar)


Quote:
These are businesses.
BBC isn't.

Oh, and by the way, you've just reiterated the best argument available for an independent, publicly financed public service sender, like the BBC.

Quote:
As a marketting strategy for their business, Fox News markets themselves as "fair and balanced." Does that mean that they are absolutely 'fair and balanced?' No.
In which case their marketing scheme is a scam. Nothing more, nothing less. Fux News brand themselves 'fair and balanced' - which is roughly analogous to an ice cream brand advertising itself as 'healthy and nutritious.' It appears that marketing schemes which would be blatantly illegal for ice cream factories are A OK when applied to crapservative propaganda spewers...

Quote:
But they don't seem to have any problems selling their goods to the general public.
Neither does Ann Coulter.

Quote:
And Dagobahn Eagle, you say you want to be informed by someone who is 'remotely objective?' Well, if you don't think Fox News is, then *gasp* don't watch them! It's called the free market...and, strangely enough, it works.
It evidently does not. Not, at least, in the United Eigenstates of America. If it did, Fux News would not still be in business.

Quote:
And if you think they're out there lying to the public, then tell RoxStar, tell those neighbors about it. Word-of-mouth is one of the one of the most effective marketting tools out there, and it can work either for or against any business.
We do. Oh, we do.

Unfortunately, some of them are as intellectually and morally bankrupt as you are, [Deleted], in which case one might as well save oneself the bother. [Deleted]

Quote:
Pointing out both sides is not equivocation.
Comparing Fux News and any real news agency is sickening equivocation. Fux News is roughly comparable to the Soviet Itar Tas. Under Brezhnev or Khrushchev.

Quote:
I was demonstrating that bias can run more than one way.
You were demonstrating that bias comes in different strengths, [Deleted]. I could easily list a number of news providers that have a left-wing bias - but the names wouldn't mean a great deal to you, because they're all European. NYT, however, is not one of them. Maybe it once was, I don't know, but it most certainly isn't today.

Quote:
Quote:
Let me first point out that the NYT is not, by any sane standard, a left-wing outlet.
To most it is.
To most Americans, perhaps... But then again, I suppose Radio Free Europe was a right-wing outlet to most Soviet citizens.

Quote:
To you it isn't because it's to the right of you
I posted my frame of reference. The BBC and Der Spiegel. Of course, you probably don't know either of those, Mister Troll, but that's your loss.

I myself am to the political left of the editors of those outlets, so it's hardly a matter of me using my own political opinions as a reference point. On the other hand, both of those outlets come as close to independent reporting as you get it on this planet, which is why they're the standard reference.

Pics courtesy of WinAce (RIP).


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Old 06-28-2006, 03:23 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
First error. Fux News is not a news organisation. It's a propaganda sender.
That's an opinion not a fact, many would agree with you, many won't.

Besides whats your beef with the US anyway, maybe it's because you're jealous of people who don't have large amounts of their paycheck seized by the government.
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Old 06-28-2006, 03:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samnmax221
maybe it's because you're jealous of people who don't have large amounts of their paycheck seized by the government.
Woohoo, the old "Maybe you dislike us because we're so awesome and you're jealous" argument. That one never gets old.



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Old 06-28-2006, 03:45 PM   #31
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I'm not saying we're awesome, just that we have a fairer tax system.
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Old 06-28-2006, 03:48 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Samnmax221
That's an opinion not a fact, many would agree with you, many won't.
*Yawn*

The reality-based community does. And that's enough for me. I don't really care much for the good opinion of people who choose to live in fantasy land.

Quote:
Besides whats your beef with the US anyway,
Lemme see...

- Kyoto
- Iraq
- Guantanamo
- White phosphorous over Fallujah
- War on Terror
- The IMF [1]
- Iran
- The Ottawa Protocol [2]
- Death penalty
- Secret torture camps
- Supports fascist organisations in Europe [3]
- Iran [4]
- Palestine [5]
- Chile
- Reproductive health
- The Geneva Convention
- The anti-torture convention

Do you want a longer list? I could easily add entries all night.

[1] More specifically the ruinous policies it forced on several Latin American countries for decades - you wonder why the Venezuelans don't like the Eigenstates? I don't.

[2] The Eigenstates have yet to sign the Ottawa Protocol.

[3] Creationists, (militant) anti-abortion activists, and the Roman Catholic Church - to name a few.

[4] More specifically the war that you're going to launch against Iran, as well as the execrable handling of the entire Iranian crisis.

[5] See [4]. Esp. the part about 'execrable handling.'

Quote:
maybe it's because you're jealous of people who don't have large amounts of their paycheck seized by the government.
For your information, I support the Danish tax system. Actively.

Quote:
I always hear the claim that if science say it not true then then it can't true ever.

This another example of the public ingorance of science and of objective reality.
Science is not always right even when it apparenly seem to be.
*Yawn*

That's trivial. Science doesn't claim to be.

A really good link explaining why your criticism is meaningless. Bookmark it.

From the link:

Quote:
Philosophy is an interesting subject (the best debates always took place in philosophy class). However, philosophers can exhibit a tendency to haughtily dismiss practicality in favour of absolutes. A common philosophical rebuttal of science (particular evolutionary science, which faces powerful religious opponents) is that it lacks certainty. It is not proven. There is no guarantee of its truth or falsehood. And guess what: surprise! It's all true.

So why is science great, if it's not certain or proven or guaranteed true? The short answer is that these criticisms are meaningless, because nothing outside the existence of your own thoughts is certain, proven, or guaranteed true. If you wish to use absolute proof, certainty, or guarantees of truth as your litmus test for validity, then you have just subscribed to solipsism: the belief that nothing can be reliably known besides the existence of your own thought.


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Old 06-28-2006, 06:10 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ShadowTemplar
Nope. And you know what? That's a characteristic feature of your posts: You don't engage the subject at all. You simply shout (loudly) that THEYDOITASWELL!!! Sorry, but that does not constitute an argument (especially when it is demonstrably a lie). So take a cookie and stop whining, [Deleted].
Not only does this have nothing to do with anything, but it also happens to be patently false. And in case you haven't notice, I routinely ignore questions from you as a matter of course because, in my experience, you're more interested in personal attacks, inane and/or sarcastic comments, and stupid little graphics than you are in having an honest, straight-forward debate.

Frankly, I don't think we disagree on the credibility of Fox News (which, by the way, I have not defended). I just think it's more than a little disengenuous to throw Fox News under the bus because they have more of a conservative slant when there are lots of other popular news services out there that are just as bad or worse.

After all, I didn't see the same kind of vitriol toward Dan Rather when he blatently lied about a forged memo on CBS News and then tried to defend that lie. All I'm asking for is some consistency (and maybe a little maturity). If you can't accept that, don't expect me to respond to you.


Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
~John F. Kennedy

True Conservatism


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Old 06-28-2006, 09:58 PM   #34
ShadowTemplar
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Originally Posted by rccar328
Not only does this have nothing to do with anything, but it also happens to be patently false.
You know what? You're actually right about that. I did a search of your previous posts, and the pattern of pointing fingers is actually much less comprehensive than I thought.

My apologies for making that claim.

Quote:
And in case you haven't notice, I routinely ignore questions from you as a matter of course because, in my experience, you're more interested in personal attacks, inane and/or sarcastic comments, and stupid little graphics than you are in having an honest, straight-forward debate.
In case you failed to notice the pattern, I use sarcastic quibs whenever people keep dodging, weaving and outright ignoring airtight points.

I've never once seen any of you neo-cons acknowledge the report on Fux News that's been cited multiple times around this forum.

Not a single one of you neo-cons here left the slightest acknowledgement that you three spent 2/3 of the Guantanamo tread ranting about what the Geneva Convention said and did not say without ever actually having read the thing. That was pointed out to you by yours truely. And I was reasonably polite about it, too.

And I saw nothing in the way of response to the refutation of (IIRC) Good Sir Knight's vile slander against Amnesty International. Not even an acknowledgement that a reply had in fact been posted.

And I litterally do not have the patience to recount all the occations on which you've outright ignored a post from Skinwalker that contained rock-solid references. But for a couple of examples, you could look to the 'Bush's Econ Policy' thread from a while back.

And both you and the other couple of neo-cons have posted with varying frequency in one or more of the science-vs.-evolution-denial threads. Only to run away once Skin or I showed up and started referencing the Talk.Origins Archives. Again, no acknowledgements that you'd even seen the responses - much less bothered to read them.

And the interesting thing here is that the next time such a thread floats to the top of the list, our resident neo-cons trot out the selfsame tired bovine manure that we refuted the last time around. There's no sign whatsoever that anything they've read inbetween has made a lasting impression.

So I propose that your insistence upon 'honest, straight-forward debate' brings the adage about pots and kettles forcibly to mind...


Now, back to the topic at hand:

Quote:
Frankly, I don't think we disagree on the credibility of Fox News (which, by the way, I have not defended).
I never claimed you did.

Quote:
I just think it's more than a little disengenuous to throw Fox News under the bus because they have more of a conservative slant when there are lots of other popular news services out there that are just as bad or worse.
Again, you fail to grasp the point. Nobody here is 'throwing Fux News under the bus' because it's biassed. We're slamming Fux News because it routinely lies to its viewers to an extend unmatched this side of the Chinese Politburo.

Quote:
After all, I didn't see the same kind of vitriol toward Dan Rather when he blatently lied about a forged memo on CBS News and then tried to defend that lie.
Three points: One: Lying, while common in all American media I know of, is much less pervasive on CBS than on Fux. Two: Fux is a regime outlet, CBS is not. It is natural to pay more attention to an outlet that regurgiates regime propaganda lock stock and two smoking barrells, and has intimate connections to the American fascist movement than to an outlet that does not have such powerful connections. Three: Fux is bigger than CBS. By some margin.

Quote:
All I'm asking for is some consistency (and maybe a little maturity).
Again, the adage about pots and kettles comes to mind... Consistency and maturity, as in condemning Clinton for getting his dick sucked by an intern, while defending Bush's patently illegal wiretaps - or, for that matter, the firebombing of Fallujah... Consistency and maturity indeed. With a touch of perspective and a genuine sense of proportion too...

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Old 06-29-2006, 09:15 AM   #35
Mike Windu
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That's the last time I buy anything just because it's furry!

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Old 06-29-2006, 10:09 AM   #36
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I don't get how Fox can openly admit that they are biased, and then run with the "fair and balanced" tagline.

I do agree with fox that a lot of news will inherit an inherent bias simply from how the journalist in question reports it, or even what they choose to report.

However with most SERIOUS RESPECTED news outlets the objective of the journalists is to be as accurate as possible.

Then you have a lower level of tabloid press who present OPINION and editorial comment. These people attempt to fit the news to the viewpoints of their readers in order to gain popularity.

Both may contain bias, but the first is at least attempting to maintain it's journalistic integrity.

Fox news is the TV equivalent to the tabloid press, such as the Sun and the Daily Mirror in the UK. Its possibly the first mainstream TV occurance of a tabloid channel, but it is tabloid nontheless.

I don't know anything about the NYT, but I understand that it is well respected, and has a reasonably strict editorial policy to ensure its facts are at least correct. The same with outlets like the BBC. They will of course occasionally make mistakes, but at least they try to be unbiased.

Tabloids like The Sun are well known to be biased and not factually correct, but their writers, editors and readers don't care.
In the UK the Sun has actually taken credit for a number of election victories... and it is entirely posible that they have the power to have swung those elections. But they are hardly of the same calibur and integrity as the well respected press.

The Sun is of course owned by the same guy as Fox news and half the world's media.



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Old 07-01-2006, 11:04 PM   #37
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In which case their marketing scheme is a scam. Nothing more, nothing less. Fux News brand themselves 'fair and balanced' - which is roughly analogous to an ice cream brand advertising itself as 'healthy and nutritious.' It appears that marketing schemes which would be blatantly illegal for ice cream factories are A OK when applied to crapservative propaganda spewers...
Strange, that. It's as if the de-facto owners of FOX "News" (the Republican Party) are protecting them from attack.

Quote:
Not only does this have nothing to do with anything, but it also happens to be patently false. And in case you haven't notice, I routinely ignore questions from you as a matter of course because, in my experience, you're more interested in personal attacks, inane and/or sarcastic comments, and stupid little graphics than you are in having an honest, straight-forward debate.
ShadowTemplar, actually he has a bit of a point here. You are on a pretty high horse, and it'd be nice if you stepped down from it. You're right in 99,999% of the things you post, but your way of presenting them is questionable to me (and apparently also to a certain archeologist, should we judge by the number of "[Deleted]" tags in your posts).

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Old 07-04-2006, 08:55 PM   #38
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I looked through the old threads out of nostalgia today, and found this:

Court ruled that media can legally lie (Closed thread)

The article also details how two reporters were fired and sued for refusing to lie.

FOX News, gotta love ya.

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Old 08-06-2006, 12:47 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Personally, I find it strange how FOX News must claim they are "Fair and Balanced." No other news channels must do so in order to show they are impartial.
Thats because more than half the others aren't and they know it. FOX News leans to the right, whats the big deal. The democrats and liberals have their fair share of receiving news the way they want to hear. Why can't the republicans and conservatives have theirs?

That said, I don't really believe that putting "spin" on the news is acceptable. But lets face it, a moral and impartial news service is out of the question. I believe that it is beyond ethicality to be partial on every issue. Corrupt administration and journalists trying to claw their way to the top through attracting a stable audience will eventually swing the station left or right.

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Old 08-06-2006, 12:52 AM   #40
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Fox News is the Bush Administration's freak on a leash.
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