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Old 07-16-2006, 02:03 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Raid the building, stop being lazy, sloppy soldiers. In Iraq we don't blow up all of Baghdad when there are suspected insurgents there, we raid their buildings and bring them into custody.
Iraq proved this is one pf the most dangerous things you can do, but you're right, rather than resort to the methods they have been using Israel should used their much vaunted special forces to raid terrorist hideouts, rather than resort to the obsolete method of fighting that America utilises no matter how much shock and awe you dress it up with.
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Old 07-16-2006, 11:36 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
It's called "special forces." If you know where the terrorists are, go CAPTURE them, rather than blowing them up along with the rest of the city. It's sad how they decide that it's okay to kill innocent children living next door to a suspected terrorist building. Raid the building, stop being lazy, sloppy soldiers. In Iraq we don't blow up all of Baghdad when there are suspected insurgents there, we raid their buildings and bring them into custody.
Okay, let someone with actual military experience step in here.

1) We are able to do that in Iraq because we are in the country. We can surround the insurgent's nests to prevent escape. Israel does not have a large presence there to do that.

2) These Hezbollah terrorists are highly mobile. You have to strike while the iron is hot. Missiles and artillery are much quicker than sending in special ops forces. If they could capture the terrorists, believe me, they would. You gain much more intelligence from captured enemies than dead enemies.

3) Every military leader has an obligation to protect his troops. If you can eliminate the enemy without placing your own soldiers at risk, you choose that option. As Nancy said, ground-based urban warfare is incredibly dangerous.

Choosing the most effective method to eliminate your enemy while protecting your troops is not "being lazy, sloppy soldiers". It's smart tactics.


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Old 07-16-2006, 11:49 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
1) We are able to do that in Iraq because we are in the country. We can surround the insurgent's nests to prevent escape. Israel does not have a large presence there to do that.
Then go in covertly, undercover. You don't need to roll out the tanks.

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett66
2) These Hezbollah terrorists are highly mobile. You have to strike while the iron is hot. Missiles and artillery are much quicker than sending in special ops forces. If they could capture the terrorists, believe me, they would. You gain much more intelligence from captured enemies than dead enemies.
Yes, it's quicker. It's also more likely to slaughter a bunch of Canadian citizens stranded in Lebanon (airport was bombed... twice). That just happened earlier today. I guess their lives don't matter, as long as you're kicking that terrorist ass!

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
If you can eliminate the enemy without placing your own soldiers at risk, you choose that option. As Nancy said, ground-based urban warfare is incredibly dangerous.
Using this logic, nuking an entire country to kill off its terrorists would be an option.

Would you say that the ends justify the means?

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Choosing the most effective method to eliminate your enemy while protecting your troops is not "being lazy, sloppy soldiers". It's smart tactics.
Protecting your troops... have you ever thought about protecting innocent civilians? Children?

Frankly, your logic seems to be the exact same logic as suicide bombers. If you can eliminate or disrupt your enemy in the most efficient way possible, do it. And if that means strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up civilians on a bus or in a school, it gets the job done, right? Even if it's evil and destructive.
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Old 07-17-2006, 12:18 AM   #44
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You make some valid points TK-8252 but you still turn a blind eye to the tactics used by Hamas and Hezbollah, e.g. suicide bombers.

I don't agree with how the Israelis are attacking the Beirut airport as I'm pretty sure Lebanon doesn't have any attack aircraft to speak of. I'm not sure they're using good intelligence when targeting their attacks in Lebanon. I do think the Israelis are using excessive force and are not helping their cause in the eyes of the international community.

The fact of the matter is that a state of war has opened up in Palestine and atrocities are occurring on both sides, like the indiscriminate rocket attack Hezbollah launched that killed 8 Israeli civilians. If Hezbollah thought it could pull a Hamas and kill and kidnap Israeli soldiers without retribution from the Israeli military, then Hezbollah was sorely mistaken. Of course it seems like you think Israel should just bend over and take it.

The old adage "all is fair in love and war" does have the ring of truth to it, does it not?


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Old 07-17-2006, 12:30 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutmeister
You make some valid points TK-8252 but you still turn a blind eye to the tactics used by Hamas and Hezbollah, e.g. suicide bombers.
I thought I mentioned such tactics in my last post...

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Originally Posted by cutmeister
The fact of the matter is that a state of war has opened up in Palestine
I'm talking about Lebanon, though.

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Originally Posted by cutmeister
Of course it seems like you think Israel should just bend over and take it.
It seems other people here seem to think that Lebanon should just bend over and take it. I've never suggested that Israel should take the **** that suicide bombers and kidnappers feed them. I've suggested that they not do things like, well, slaughter innocent people, destroy civilian infastructive, and generally **** up everything. The terrorists are good at doing those things... Israel has to be better than them if they want to remain the "good guys" in all of this. Resorting to their tactics = bad.

If you just look at the numbers, Israel has killed FAR more civilians in this than Hezbollah has. I think it's time they pull back on their bomb-the-****-out-of-everything operations.

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Originally Posted by cutmeister
The old adage "all is fair in love and war" does have the ring of truth to it, does it not?
Well, that was before we had things like Geneva Conventions and war crimes tribunals.
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Old 07-17-2006, 01:04 AM   #46
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Yes, I understand you're talking about Lebanon. I most definitely intended my reference to Palestine being in a state of war to include Lebanon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
It seems other people here seem to think that Lebanon should just bend over and take it. I've never suggested that Israel should take the **** that suicide bombers and kidnappers feed them. I've suggested that they not do things like, well, slaughter innocent people, destroy civilian infastructive, and generally **** up everything. The terrorists are good at doing those things... Israel has to be better than them if they want to remain the "good guys" in all of this. Resorting to their tactics = bad.
I don't find anything I disagree with in this statement. Israel is definitely not taking the high road in this situation.
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
If you just look at the numbers, Israel has killed FAR more civilians in this than Hezbollah has. I think it's time they pull back on their bomb-the-****-out-of-everything operations.
From published media reports it does seem like Israeli attacks have killed a lot more civilians than Hezbollah attacks. However I think we would do well to remember that a member of Hezbollah doesn't exactly stand out in a crowd of Lebanese. As far as I can tell Hezbollah are members of the Lebanese community who have decided to fight against Israel. They live and work alongside Lebanese who aren't pursuing attacks against Israel. So it becomes difficult to discern if a death resulting from an Israeli attack is a true civilian death or a militant civilian death. This is one of the disadvantages of guerrilla warfare. Regardless I think Israel has crossed the justifiable line of response. I would be very surprised if it's captured soldiers are still alive at this point, both in Gaza and in Lebanon.
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Well, that was before we had things like Geneva Conventions and war crimes tribunals.
Perhaps so but have you ever noticed that the victor is the one that convenes the war crime tribunal and rare is the occasion when a leader from the victorious side is tried for war crimes? A debate for a different thread, I suppose...


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Old 07-17-2006, 01:08 AM   #47
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Here's something interesting: on Fox Faux News I just heard that eight Lebanese army soldiers were killed in an Israeli rocket attack... ON THEIR BASE. They bombed a Lebanese army base because they say they wanted to blow up a radar station in it.

Did they even bother to ask Lebanon, "hey guys, could you move your guys out of that base? We wanna blow the **** out of it."
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Old 07-17-2006, 02:01 AM   #48
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I thought this was rather appropriate, unlike the one on the Mohammed cartoons.



Also...

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Old 07-17-2006, 02:07 AM   #49
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I found the Mohammed cartoon very appropriate
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Old 07-17-2006, 02:58 AM   #50
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In terms of accurate criticism of Islam, certainly. In terms of continuing to attack the issue, such as the cartoon I posted of Miss Piggy, Porky Pig, Piglet and other cartoon pigs waving around the cartoons to upset Muslims (the same people who made that made the two Israel ones here) then no. I covered my feelings on it in the Muslim Outrage at Mohammed Cartoons thread.
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Old 07-17-2006, 12:22 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Did they even bother to ask Lebanon, "hey guys, could you move your guys out of that base? We wanna blow the **** out of it."
"Hey America, we're going to bomb your Pearl Harbor, could you please evacuate while we destroy your expensive ships?

Love,
Japan"

Yeah, doesn't exactly work now does it?

As for your special forces and infiltrating stuff. It's not as simple as the soldiers driving up to a hideout and barging in.
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Old 07-17-2006, 02:04 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by StarWarsPhreak
"Hey America, we're going to bomb your Pearl Harbor, could you please evacuate while we destroy your expensive ships?

Love,
Japan"

Yeah, doesn't exactly work now does it?
You forgot something very important here:

Israel is claiming that by bombing everything, they're "helping" Lebanon by ridding them of Hezbollah. They're not declaring war on Lebanon. They think they're doing a good thing helping out Lebanon. And yet they're only radicalizing the moderate Muslims in Lebanon who will now go and join Hezbollah rather than turning against it. Sigh.

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Originally Posted by StarWarsPhreak
As for your special forces and infiltrating stuff. It's not as simple as the soldiers driving up to a hideout and barging in.
Too bad, it's the only way this kind of situation can be resolved. When some creeps are held up in a bank with hostages, do we bomb the entire bank? No, we use a SWAT team. Only way it can be handled, no matter how difficult it is.

Israel SHOULD have the absolute BEST counter-terrorist and special forces teams in the WORLD.
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Old 07-17-2006, 02:28 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
I thought this was rather appropriate, unlike the one on the Mohammed cartoons.



Also...

Erm. What? Do those cartoons have any sort of point, or joke or something, because right now they just seem like infantile cartoons drawn by someone who has no idea what they are talking about and a partizan viewpoint.

What is the point of the first one exactly? I assuming its supposed to contrast the actions of those condemning israel with israel itself? but it doesn't. None of those mentioned have lauched indescriminate attacks on cities in another country merely because of a kidnap. None have used anything but diplomacy to attack israel. And even if they were all evil then that wouldn't justify any action by israel. Guess i just don't get the partisan in-joke...

Lebannon is getting screwed. Its people are getting screwed... and none of thise even has anything to do with them.
The west created the problem. Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia are fuelling the problem for their own ends. The USA and Russia have their own agendas. The governments and people of Israel and Palestine are so extremist mow that they are miles past reason. the lebanese people are a little football that is getting kicked around by players way out of its control.

Lauching missile and artilery attacks on civilian population centres is against the geneva convention and a war crime. What the israelis are doing is exactly the same as hezzbloah.. except the israelis are supposed to be a civilised modern country... and their might way outstrips anything hezzbollah might have.
They've already killed over 150 civilians, hate to think how many they've injured. They've destroyed tv stations, roads, power stations, appartment blocks, gas stations. They've caused 100s of thouseands to flee their homes.
Well over 15,000 british and french citizens are being evacuated.... and i'd assume they aren't responsible for the actions of hezzbollah... but they are obviously in danger if they are being coptered out of the country.

I've seen no sign that the israelis have had any successes against hezzbollah so far... only against civilian targets. Which i'm sure will make hezzbollah very popular.

Frankly its disgraceful behavior from any supposedly civilised country... and since the lebanese government is clearly cornered and helpless I think the UN should step in, and blow any israeli aircraft that crosses the border out of the sky.
If they are going to act like terrorists then they deserve to be treated like them... and if it wasn't for US political lobbies then they would be.

Every time something like this happens it plays right into the hands of everyone who says "how come the west has such double standards when it comes to international law?". I can't think of a valid excuse anymore except: cos they pay more money in washington than you do. sorry.



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Old 07-17-2006, 03:18 PM   #54
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Erm. What? Do those cartoons have any sort of point, or joke or something, because right now they just seem like infantile cartoons drawn by someone who has no idea what they are talking about and a partizan viewpoint.
Not suprising. On the Cox & Forkum site, under the editorialists list they have links to sites such as "Jewish World Review" and "Think-Israel" among other things.
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Old 07-17-2006, 04:37 PM   #55
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What I don't understand about this situation is the position frequently taken by so many that when organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah stage kidnappings or suicide bombings against Israel, that Israel should just bend over and take it.
Sure, because it's either "take it" or "massacre civilians".Of course there's no in-between.

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A suicide bomber wantonly kills and injures Israeli civilians on a bus or in a cafe, and Israel is condemned when any Palestinian civilians are killed or injured when they retaliate against legitimate terrorist targets civilian targets such as refugee camps, power plants, schools, universities, airports, and highways.
Funny that.

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War is messy. The only way to clean it up is to overpower the enemy quickly and decisively.
Granted, war is messy. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it as clean as possible, does it now? Didn't think so.

As for overpowering the enemy quickly, that's BS. All they're doing is sitting still on the border and slaughtering innocents.

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And frankly, if there are civilians around (whether purposefully as a shield or not) then tough. You don't just go ahead and bomb them anyway... thats not how civilised societies behave.
Exactly.

Quote:
Notice how when it was just one soldier captured, they could have easily deployed special forces to search for him rather than rolling out the tanks to blow the **** out of everything. Now they have lost more of their soldiers. So seriously, who the hell is behind Israel's response? "We lost one soldier, so let's start a war over it and lose MORE soldiers!"
Simple: They had it planned a long time. It's like Bush&Co. and the PATRIOT ACT: They had it ready and waited for a provocation.

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You know, if the zionists who kicked the Palestinians off their land in the first place couldn't see these endless conflicts in the future, they were ignorant as hell.
Yes, it's funny how occupied people always want their land back. Stupid natives.

Face it, it's this simple: The Israelis rolled in and took over Palestine, and the Palestinians got pissed because it's their land. They had lived there for 2000 years.

Like the Native Americans, the Native Australians, and so on? Or the Vietnamese, the Europeans under Hitler, or the Koreans under the Japanese? Damned whiners, thinking they have the right to their own land.

Look at how the US and Canada considers North America. They've been there for only a few hundred years. Now add 1500+ years. Hmm...

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Frankly the Muslims don't want to share anything with the rest of the world.
What?! Do you have some sort of reasoning for that?

First of all, let's do some math:
There are about 1 billion Muslims in the world.
There about 10 million people in Palestine.

"The Muslims"? Are you really racist enough to generalize a billion people on the basis of a single nation?

Second, the Palestinians had their country taken away from them by the Israelis, right? Wouldn't giving the Palestinian population some breathing room (rather than packing them into pockets of your country and massacring them at will) a good example of "sharing"? I would think so.

Now, please tell me how wanting your nation back equals to "not sharing".

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Old 07-17-2006, 04:59 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by toms
They've already killed over 150 civilians, hate to think how many they've injured.
The official count is at least 180, but it's more likely to be over 200 at the moment according to reporters in Lebanon.
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:05 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by toms
Erm. What? Do those cartoons have any sort of point, or joke or something, because right now they just seem like infantile cartoons drawn by someone who has no idea what they are talking about and a partizan viewpoint.
Simple. The first cartoon demonstrates how the world attacks Israel for their retalliation to terrorism, in this case the kidnapping of soldiers and demand that they release hundreds of their criminals to get him back. The second shows what I and others brought up before, in using civillians as human shields to keep Israel from attacking or to illegitimise any attack because of the high number of civillian casulties there would be because of how those who attack Israel have positioned themselves.

If that was a little hard to understand, perhaps this will be clearer.

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Old 07-17-2006, 05:10 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Simple. The first cartoon demonstrates how the world attacks Israel for their retalliation to terrorism
Israel deserves all the criticism it gets when its "retalliation" consists of the intentional slaughtering of innocent people and the destruction of a helpless country that has done nothing to aid the enemies of Israel.
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:16 PM   #59
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And they should be, the same as every time someone died in Iraq George Bush was treated as if he pulled the trigger himself. But deliberately? Can you prove they deliberately target civillians and not the terrorists who hide amongst them? Because what I see is military reaction to kidnappings, suicide bombings and terrorism. I had watched the news and seen no report of Israel slaughtering innocents. If this is fact and not just opinion could you provide a source?
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:24 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Can you prove they deliberately target civillians and not the terrorists who hide amongst them?
If they bomb an apartment building, that is a civilian target. They KNOW that they have a bunch of innocent civilians in their crosshair when they pull the trigger. It is targeting civilians EVEN IF there are terrorists hiding behind them.

And their bombing of gas stations, highways, airports, power plants, etc. should be enough evidence that they're not just targeting terrorists.

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I had watched the news and seen no report of Israel slaughtering innocents. If this is fact and not just opinion could you provide a source?
Perhaps you should turn the channel from Faux News.
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:29 PM   #61
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Yeah, I get what you're saying, but tell me something. There is all this outcry when Israel kills civillians, and yet people seem to accept Palestinion and Hamas terrorist attacks and suicide bombings. It seems that people are allowed to try and wipe out Israel but Israel is not allowed to fight back, or do I have it all wrong?
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:47 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Yeah, I get what you're saying, but tell me something. There is all this outcry when Israel kills civillians, and yet people seem to accept Palestinion and Hamas terrorist attacks and suicide bombings. It seems that people are allowed to try and wipe out Israel but Israel is not allowed to fight back, or do I have it all wrong?
Well, Israel, a supposedly civilized nation, has done the exact same things that HAMAS and Hezbollah have. Those groups are considered terrorist organizations. Israel considers itself to be a legitimate nation in the world. Everyone knows that HAMAS and Hezbollah are the bad guys, so when the bad guys are being themselves, what's new? There doesn't need to be outcry against terrorists because we KNOW that what they do is bad.

No one in the UN has even condemned the Israeli aggression. They say that Israel is using "disproportionate force." Oh noes. That's so horrible. Israel must be so sad that everyone in the UN is beating up on them. They must be so upset that everyone is saying that their forces are disproportionate.
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:48 PM   #63
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Israel had committed suicide bombings? Source?
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:51 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Israel had committed suicide bombings? Source?
They launch rocket attacks on cities, packed with innocent people. We know that and if you need a source, here you go: www.google.com
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Old 07-17-2006, 06:17 PM   #65
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I was referring to Israel committing suicide bombings, of which I had found nothing. Their 'shock and awe' style retalliation is well known, and is in my view not the way war is to be fought. I did not approve of this style of war back in Iraq and I do not approve of it now.

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Perhaps you should turn the channel from Faux News.
I find it difficult to believe that the same sensationalist media who joyously screen the atrocious images of Abu Gharib and seem to forget about people such as Nick Berg would pass up an oppotunity to make Israel look bad. Just so that you know, my choice of media is one that had defended attacks from protesters who screamed to make amends to their newspaper by putting their rally and march on the front page, ahead of, at the time, topics such as the London bombings and New Orleans if I remember correctly, as well as important news closer to home.
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Old 07-17-2006, 07:30 PM   #66
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Another reason why I don't see a ground invasion as a viable option is that fact that anyone could be a potential enemy, and the whole "they dress like civilians" thing doesn't help.

If the terrorists don't give a crap about the Geneva Convention or the Rules of Engagement, I don't think I would.
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Old 07-17-2006, 07:34 PM   #67
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Exactly. I know that Israel are meant to be a civillised country and the collataral damage should be condemned but is it one rule for them and another for terrorists?
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Old 07-17-2006, 07:34 PM   #68
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Another reason why I don't see a ground invasion as a viable option is that fact that anyone could be a potential enemy, and the whole "they dress like civilians" thing doesn't help.
That's why Israel has to have good intelligence. Supposedly they do... but if they do then they apparently don't use it.

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If the terrorists don't give a crap about the Geneva Convention or the Rules of Engagement, I don't think I would.
"If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
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Old 07-18-2006, 02:39 AM   #69
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When some creeps are held up in a bank with hostages, do we bomb the entire bank?
Well, some nations [cough]Russia[cough] pretty much do. Damned hostage-keepers for hiding behind civilians.

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If the terrorists don't give a crap about the Geneva Convention or the Rules of Engagement, I don't think I would.
So after 9/11, Bush would've been justified in hijacking four Afghan airliners and killing 3000 innocent Afghans with them? When the Allied found out about the Death Camps in World War II, would they've been justified in making their own? Nonsense.

The Geneva Conventions need to be followed. Always. If the arguments about innocents dying for whatever reason does not get to you, then perhaps it'll make you think if I tell you it's guaranteed to make terrorism more powerful.

Terrorism is the symptom, not the disease. Maybe if Israel didn't act like a terrorist regime itself, it wouldn't get so many attacks? Maybe if it withdrew from the occupied areas, tore down The Great Wall of Imperialist Neo-Zionists, and stopped killing innocents, the Palestinians would be less inclined to blow it to pieces? Granted, there'd still be terrorist attacks, but Israel would be far more justified in the eyes of the world when it cried out against them.

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Old 07-18-2006, 03:20 AM   #70
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Maybe if they didn't reject God they wouldn't be persecuted. Has that excuse to attack them been used yet?
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Old 07-18-2006, 08:14 AM   #71
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This seems a more accurate represtentation of the situation to me...

Try to look past the amazing artwork
Maybe i should have added another bystander commenting "but it wasn't even that kid who started it, and a hezzbollah/iran/syria group of kids in the background laughing.

---

As the issues seem to have gotten confused its worth pointing out that the palestinians really have vry little to do with the current conflict. So emotive comments about them using child suicide bombers or whatever aren't really relevant to this thread.

While they obviously share the palestinian hatred of Israel, they are a seperate orgainisation working in a seperate area. As far as i know they have never carried out suicide bombings, though there has been suggestion that they have helped out other organisations to do so.

They were formed as an amalgamation of a number of shia resistance groups in response to the israeli occupation of southern lebannon. Their stated aim was to get israel out of lebannon.

Though once israel left in 2000 they didn't disband as they claimed israel still held certain contested lands, and the continued occasional attacks by israel on them in lebanese lands were used as a reason for not disbanding, and continued attacks into israeli land.
(which is a lot like two 5 year olds who keep hitting each other and each refuse to stop first).

Their main method of attack has been launching misiles over the border at israel. Plus the odd kidnapping for prisoner exchange.

Like a lot of parties in conflict torn regions (IRA, PLO, etc..) they have a political wing and a military wing.

Lebannon, like israel and iraq, is a mess of differnet religions and sects that was forced together by western interference. The south is mostly Shia and supports hezzbollah. the north is mostly Suni and Christian and tends to be less supportive. Syria and Iran, being mostly shia and enemies of the israel and therefore the USA tend to support hezbollah.

The lebenese government and army couldn't disarm hezbollah if it wanted to, because most of its soldiers, whether they support hezbollah or not, wouldn't be willing to fight fellow muslims who are fighting for their faith... even if they believe their actions to be misguided. Also, the lebanese government is pretty weak in the region in comparison to the big boys around it like Syria, Iran and Israel.

The country had been moving to a more favourable (from a western viewpoint) viewpoint of trying to distance itself with syria. That seems likely to stop now.

--
(potted history for those that need it).

Points to note:
- lebannon is basically being used as a battlegound for forces outside its control.
- hezbollah's main crime is that it fires untargetted ranged weapons into populated civilian areas.
- israel is currently firing untargetted ranged weapons into populated civilian areas.
- Israel launched a massive offensive against hezzbollah in 96... and totally failed to destroy it. They did however kill 100s of civilians, injure thousands more and boost hezbollah support.
- Shock and awe usually seems to backfire. It hasn't made the US troops popular in iraq. It didn't make the US population withdraw support for Bush after 9/11. It didn't make the UK population cower after 7/7 or any of the IRA bombs. In palestine its led to the election of Hamas. It usually leads to people becoming more hardline in defence of whatever you attacked... and temprarily at least responing in foolish and agressive ways.
- None of the 1000s of lebanese people who hare being made homeless are blaming Hezbollah, they are blaming israel.
- Israel has been know to kidnap people from other nations as well.

Finally i'd point out that the actions of one side don't justify the actions of another. Whatever you think about the actions of hezbollah or the palestinians.. they don't free israel of its responsibilities. Just because the other side kills civilians doesn't mean it gives you a green light to do the same.

Just because a few terrorists on a planet might be plotting against you doesn't make it ok to destroy the whole planet to get them. And even if you do it will just harden resentment against you and increase support for their cause... and then more star systems will slip through your grasp.



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Old 07-18-2006, 08:40 AM   #72
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A far more accurate drawing, toms. Yes, if it wasn't for USA, Israel wouldn't get away with a tenth of the things it did (it'd also have been destroyed utterly and early, but oh well...). Let's not get into how that goes for lots of other regimes under the US's umbrella, too. It's not on-topic, and there's enough of that on the Web already.

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Old 07-18-2006, 08:49 AM   #73
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That's good, you should send it to Green Left.

No it doesn't give them free reign to start killing civillians, but it does not mean Israel should do nothing either. Like I said their current military stratergy is not working, this is proven as most of the casulties have been civillians. Israel are also idiots for not allowing a global effort to come in and sort out the Hamas terrorists. Still to in any way shape or form say that Israel should not respond to terrorism or say they deserve persecution is absurd. Palestinions don't, the Hamas terrorists do. Iraqis don't, the insurgents do. Afghanis and Indoneasions don't, Al Qaeda and Jimaar Islamiah do.

The real bitch of it is how terrorists are hiding in populated areas, specifically not Palestine but Lebenon. From the terrorist's point of view Israel is playing right into their hands, in how their actions increases the negative world view of them.
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Old 07-18-2006, 12:14 PM   #74
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What's ironic is that at least eleven more Lebanese soldiers have been killed in Israeli attacks, and many more injured.

Didn't this all start when Israel had one of its soldiers abducted by terrorists? And now Lebanon has had some of its soldiers killed and many more injured. I suppose that Lebanon is now justified to send rockets and artillery into populated Israeli cities eh. To clear out them terrorists. It makes about as much sense.
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:01 AM   #75
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Actually Lebanon has now called for the genocide of the Jews, they wish to wipe out Israel. Israel are meant to be the good guys in this conflict but Lebanon is just an innocent bystander because terrorists have chosen to hide there.
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:57 AM   #76
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?? Did you mean Hezzbollah ?? I know a lot of people have called for the destruction of israel, but lebannon isn't a muslim state so its unlikely it would od such a think. Though i couldn't blame it for wanting to in the current situation.

Since when are israel meant to be the good guys? That just depends who's side you are on.

Either way, it doesn't look like its going to calm down anytime soon. The weird thing is that everyone (USA, Israel, etc..) seems to know that the whole situation was engineered by iran to take the focus off it's nuclear programme... but they are all falling for it anyway.

Israel seems to have now started bombing beirut... even the airport and the docks which have no possible connection to Hezzbollah. Also seems that, in addition to bombing the southern suburbs which do have some hezbollah party offices, they've been bombing targets in the eastern suburbs, which are christian areas.

Aparently there are currently up to 1/2 a million refugees fleeing southern lebannon, and the UN is warning of a major humanitarian crisis looming.



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Old 07-19-2006, 08:03 AM   #77
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Since when are israel meant to be the good guys? That just depends who's side you are on.
Quite.

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Aparently there are currently up to 1/2 a million refugees fleeing southern lebannon, and the UN is warning of a major humanitarian crisis looming.
There's already a major humanitarian crisis. It's called The Middle East.

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Old 07-19-2006, 08:08 AM   #78
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I meant Lebanon. They are calling out for the revolution to begin and to drive out Israel from their land. Now I admit to not being an expert of hpw the land had changed hands, but I see Yassar Arafat calling for children to become suicide bombers and think why should Palestine be entitled to it if they are not going to try and claim it legally. But the current situation with Lebanon has only made more enemies for Israel, and it seems that the world is baying for the genocide of the Jews.
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Old 07-19-2006, 10:33 AM   #79
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Two Red Crescent Ambulances en-route to assist 30 wounded in the town of Beit Hanoun have been destroyed by Israeli forces. According to Mads Gilbert, a doctor stationed in Gaza, it's not the first time the Red Crescent comes under fire from Israelis, and that the Israelis have killed "many" ambulance crewmen in this and earlier Gaza conflicts.

I ask myself again, as I have multiple times since they went into Lebanon: "Who do they think they are?!" Firing at civilians and the medical teams trying to help them?

Quote:
Now I admit to not being an expert of hpw the land had changed hands (...)
Israel was given a bit of it and took 90% of the rest.
Quote:
(...) but I see Yassar Arafat calling for children to become suicide bombers and think why should Palestine be entitled to it if they are not going to try and claim it legally.
Which they haven't?

You think they'd resort to suicide bombing if it was as easy as writing to the UN?

http://adamboulton.typepad.com/my_we...lair_unpl.html

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from a very Palestinian-friendly country (how much does Norway give HAMAS every year again?).


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Old 07-19-2006, 03:48 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
and it seems that the world is baying for the genocide of the Jews.
Sure there's the Iranian types who want to see all Jews die, but then there's also some Israelis who want to kill all the Arabs... so it goes both ways I guess.
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